Mackinaw Policy Conference

Part of this is a rant because I have a hard time getting past the fact that seemingly every politician/"civil servant" from every level of government around SE Michigan & a few other areas go to the $400/night Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island the end of every May on which I believe is the gov't's dime. This year seems to have added hysteria with live coverage from various media outlets [[You'd think Roberta Jacina from WWJ was a kid at Disneyland with her coverage.) It seems to me that nothing concrete has ever come out of this politician party. I remember one year, maybe 2005, Kwame Kilpatrick was able to get the metro Detroit 4 to agree on some regional transportation plan, but other than that I can't think of anything. Just wondering what opinions any DYessers had about this.

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Originally Posted by jackie5275

Part of this is a rant because I have a hard time getting past the fact that seemingly every politician/"civil servant" from every level of government around SE Michigan & a few other areas go to the $400/night Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island the end of every May on which I believe is the gov't's dime. This year seems to have added hysteria with live coverage from various media outlets [[You'd think Roberta Jacina from WWJ was a kid at Disneyland with her coverage.) It seems to me that nothing concrete has ever come out of this politician party. I remember one year, maybe 2005, Kwame Kilpatrick was able to get the metro Detroit 4 to agree on some regional transportation plan, but other than that I can't think of anything. Just wondering what opinions any DYessers had about this.

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Yes, The same opinion as yours, and the same opinion I had about the Pension Fund people and they're $22K jaunt to HI. Why didn't they all meet in Detroit? We can use the money.

Maybe they'll expand on the idea to make Belle Isle an independent country for rich people?

The Mackinaw Center is silly.

And I don't think much of the conference either. I don't think putting a bunch of politicians in the Grand Hotel together really accomplishes much. If our politicians are remotely competent, then their policy positions are already determined, based on things like what's best for their constituents or what is best for their political career, and those things don't change by hanging out with other politicians in a fancy hotel. And also, if our politicians are remotely competent, then they're in contact with each other and are already aware of what everybody wants and what has to happen to get their support for various things.

I know someone who has gone, and it's a junket. Nothing gets accomplished [[like 90% of conferences).

It is a huge waste of time. It's mostly an opportunity for the Detroit CoC to promote its agenda. What kills me is the mostly-discredited speakers they always seem to bring - like Michelle Rhee

A few years ago I thought there may be some value in getting politicians together with Business in a casual setting. You know, sitting on the porch chewing the fat at night just like deals get done on the golf course. It's a chance to get your ideas across and hope for some give and take. But now it seems every year it gets bigger and is just a media show for everyone to spew their own agenda.

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Originally Posted by 401don

A few years ago I thought there may be some value in getting politicians together with Business in a casual setting. You know, sitting on the porch chewing the fat at night just like deals get done on the golf course. It's a chance to get your ideas across and hope for some give and take. But now it seems every year it gets bigger and is just a media show for everyone to spew their own agenda.

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Which is exactly why we'll never get a media inquiry into how much it costs local municipalities to send it's leaders to this. Pension board to Hawaii ? SCANDAL! spending the same on a boondoggle in Michigan that generates content for local media during a dead news time AND is a nice place to spend a few days? crickets.

I've attended the conference before [[on my own dime, btw) -- yes, you have the opportunity to rub elbows with Michigan's "Who's Who", and I got a nice healthy stack of business cards as a souvenir as well as the chance to chat with a handful of other young professionals.

But I also went with an agenda, which was to connect with civic leaders to find a job. I get the sense that 70 percent of the attendees are just there to say hello to old friends.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Yes, The same opinion as yours, and the same opinion I had about the Pension Fund people and they're $22K jaunt to HI. Why didn't they all meet in Detroit? We can use the money.

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Absolutely!! If they even have to meet, it can be at Cobo or the RenCen which has some decent sized meeting rooms. You know they're bringing their families up to Mackinac Island too. Let them all stay at home & drive to downtown to meet. If they want to have it in the suburbs, the Suburban Showplace is big enough for them to all meet too.

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Originally Posted by jackie5275

Absolutely!! If they even have to meet, it can be at Cobo or the RenCen which has some decent sized meeting rooms. You know they're bringing their families up to Mackinac Island too. Let them all stay at home & drive to downtown to meet. If they want to have it in the suburbs, the Suburban Showplace is big enough for them to all meet too.

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I also have a few ideas where they can all go.

Didn't the UAW have a retreat on Drummond Island for the union bigwigs until recently? I am sure the members did not mind paying for that.

You'll get plenty of announcements of "big news" of items that were determined well in advance of the conference. Overall, it sounds like a chance for politicians and corporate execs to rub elbows on their respective public and corporate funds.

I think these kind of conferences are a great idea and a wise investment in our State. Depresses me that almost everyone else here just wants to destroy. The world needs more people who want to create, share, participate, plan, develop, build, and think.

Is this being paid for directly by the government or are the politicians spending part of their individual budget on it? My assumption was the latter.

These folks are paid to get things done, if breaking-bread is part of that, then it is a good thing.

as far as things getting accomplished...hmm, how about GM keeping its HQ in the RenCen? Or the deal that moved GM to the RenCen, moved State offices into old GM home on Grand Blvd ... And if I remember correctly that switch cost the citizens a dollar.

the original deal was to include the CAY moving to the Boulevard, Ford moving all of its marketing from Regency Park in Dearborn to the city hall building and GM in the RenCen.

when council balked at the outsiders trying to take over the water front and steal the magnificent city hall building, the deal almost completely went south with GM a total move outside the city limits.

at the Mac Conference, Engler, Archer, McNamarra and whomever was heading up GM rescued the moves.

oh, Ford said, f u and moved to Dearborn and they took their ad agencies with them.

in short, the wheels of progress are sometimes greased by proximity.

Oh, yeah, the Mackinaw Policy Conference is put on by the Detroit Chamber of Commerce. NOT the Mackinaw Center on Public Policy.

Thanks for setting the record straight Gnome...

Mackinac Policy Conference is NOT the same thing as the Mackinac Center...

This certainly wasn't one of the better threads on this forum...

And another thing... get the spelling right... it's Mackinaw City only... otherwise it's the Straights of Mackinac... Mackinac Bridge and Mackinac Island... and yes... Mackinac Policy Conference...

sure did and i wish we still in the ren cen, dearborn is not downtown

[QUOTE=gnome;385880]These folks are paid to get things done, if breaking-bread is part of that, then it is a good thing.

oh, Ford said, f u and moved to Dearborn and they took their ad agencies with them.
QUOTE]

Ford moved to Dearborn, because [[if you recall) the American auto companies were on the skids. I know Ford's stock dropped down to $1.35 a share. [[yeah, we all wish we had bought some). In a cost savings move, to avoid paying rent @ the Ren-Cen, they consolidated operations back into their own buildings, which of course, happen to be located in Dearborn. [[you might also remember) Ford didn't take any taxpayer/bail-out money, they decided to ride it out on their own, and try to save themselves. The ad agencies went where their customer base was. Much as Cambell-Ewald did. Ford also heavily sponsored Bring The X Games In Detroit video, [[I do believe Detroit's in the running, no?), and heavily sponsors other events in Detroit. So let's save our BS for our organic gardens, shall we? I'm paying politicians to represent me and create a warm and fuzzy environment for me to live in, not take gramma & the goldfish for a week's vacation.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Thanks for setting the record straight Gnome...

Mackinac Policy Conference is NOT the same thing as the Mackinac Center...

This certainly wasn't one of the better threads on this forum...

And another thing... get the spelling right... it's Mackinaw City only... otherwise it's the Straights of Mackinac... Mackinac Bridge and Mackinac Island... and yes... Mackinac Policy Conference...

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Part of getting deals done is relationship-building. Is it unnecessary and worthless? Well retiring US Senators talk longingly about the days when politicians would have picnics together, become friends, build trust, and get deals done. You get rid of relationship-building and things only get worse than they are now.

The RTA, the new Canadian bridge crossing, keeping GM...if anything, you could argue that the City of Detroit has disproportionately benefited from the Detroit Chamber of Commerce event.

Though, I understand the frustration. Some goals never come to fruition. People don't ever return from the conference with some "dramatic announcement" that "A deal has been struck!" or some earth-shattering, ground-breaking news.

You have to look at the event like a 10-year visioning exercise, with lots of brainstorming and idea-forming. In many ways, it's not unlike a TED conference. But these types of conferences and the ideas that spew from them have major impact over 10-30 years, which is why I am in favor.

Now does it need to be up north? Meh. I'm ambivalent. But it should definitely be a place where people can focus on each other and not be bothered by their day-to-day issues.

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Originally Posted by Jason

I don't think putting a bunch of politicians in the Grand Hotel together really accomplishes much.

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That's where you're wrong. The building could collapse, in which case we'd all be offered a fresh start. It's the best chance for the region's comeback, IMO.

That's not all: after a couple brief retreats to the horrors of centrist governance, the glorious Bush Reich may also be reinstated. May they reign for a thousand years!
http://www.freep.com/article/2013052...onference-2013

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Thanks for setting the record straight Gnome...

Mackinac Policy Conference is NOT the same thing as the Mackinac Center...

This certainly wasn't one of the better threads on this forum...

And another thing... get the spelling right... it's Mackinaw City only... otherwise it's the Straights of Mackinac... Mackinac Bridge and Mackinac Island... and yes... Mackinac Policy Conference...

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how do you spell the rain gear?

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Originally Posted by noggin

Didn't the UAW have a retreat on Drummond Island for the union bigwigs until recently? I am sure the members did not mind paying for that.

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The UAW still has a huge retreat in Northern Michigan, complete with airstrip, golf course and other resort amenities for the common working man.

"I think these kind of conferences are a great idea and a wise investment in our State. Depresses me that almost everyone else here just wants to destroy. The world needs more people who want to create, share, participate, plan, develop, build, and think."

What makes you think this is what is happening at Mackinac? Why do the corporate CEOs and politicians need to go to Mackinac to make that happen? They don't and when they are there, that's not what is happening.

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Originally Posted by poobert

That's where you're wrong. The building could collapse, in which case we'd all be offered a fresh start. It's the best chance for the region's comeback, IMO.

That's not all: after a couple brief retreats to the horrors of centrist governance, the glorious Bush Reich may also be reinstated. May they reign for a thousand years!
http://www.freep.com/article/2013052...onference-2013

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Posts like this make me realize this forum needs a 'like' button

[QUOTE=Honky Tonk;385886]

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Originally Posted by gnome

These folks are paid to get things done, if breaking-bread is part of that, then it is a good thing.

oh, Ford said, f u and moved to Dearborn and they took their ad agencies with them.
QUOTE]

Ford moved to Dearborn, because [[if you recall) the American auto companies were on the skids. I know Ford's stock dropped down to $1.35 a share. [[yeah, we all wish we had bought some). In a cost savings move, to avoid paying rent @ the Ren-Cen, they consolidated operations back into their own buildings, which of course, happen to be located in Dearborn. [[you might also remember) Ford didn't take any taxpayer/bail-out money, they decided to ride it out on their own, and try to save themselves. The ad agencies went where their customer base was. Much as Cambell-Ewald did. Ford also heavily sponsored Bring The X Games In Detroit video, [[I do believe Detroit's in the running, no?), and heavily sponsors other events in Detroit. So let's save our BS for our organic gardens, shall we? I'm paying politicians to represent me and create a warm and fuzzy environment for me to live in, not take gramma & the goldfish for a week's vacation.

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GM moved into the RenCen in 1996. I think you are referring to a different time period. In 1996 Ford was trading in the mid 30s.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=F&a=...=31&f=1997&g=d

i do not understand the reference to Campbell-Ewald. They were Chevy's ad agency since 1919, J. Walter Thompson has been Ford's agency since the 1940's I believe; however, that is just one of several shops that support Ford, Lincoln and Mercury.

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Originally Posted by jackie5275

Absolutely!! If they even have to meet, it can be at Cobo or the RenCen which has some decent sized meeting rooms. You know they're bringing their families up to Mackinac Island too. Let them all stay at home & drive to downtown to meet. If they want to have it in the suburbs, the Suburban Showplace is big enough for them to all meet too.

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They can't really do that. In a sense, these follow the pattern of management retreats, which are often held away from work sites [[or here, peoples' home turf) to prevent distractions. If you held this in Metro Detroit, no one would come. And if they did, people would be ducking out to answer phone calls or go to "emergency" meetings. Getting people a few hours from work and home is an easy way to make sure they stay on task [[whatever it is supposed to be).

Mackinac is not Monaco [[or Scottsdale) - no one has to fly there, many people do it on their own dime, and smaller organizations often go to double occupancy. People can rail about $400 a night hotel rooms, but this is a short conference, and many people don't even stay for the whole thing. And in the context of the relevant budgets, it's not even a blip.

This type of thing only gets attention because it superficially resembles super-abusive things like pension fund trips. Those trips are hugely expensive trips for "educational" purposes. Things like Mackinac serve a different purpose: getting a dialogue together between disparate interests. As a taxpayer, I am totally fine with local government paying a grand or so per person to go - our region is so dysfunctional that every little bit helps.

HB

A few 'highlights' from the conference:

Misc:
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/..._jase_bol.html

Mayoral debate - Oh joy:
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...yoral_deb.html

EAA Funding... Scholarships for EAA students for Community Colleges?
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index....special-report

Common Core education initiatives...:
http://www.mlive.com/education/index...l#incart_river

Let's tear down some more buildings....
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

"They can't really do that. In a sense, these follow the pattern of management retreats, which are often held away from work sites [[or here, peoples' home turf) to prevent distractions."

Again with this spin? I know it's important for the bigwigs who go and need to justify their presence spin this as their only opportunity to "network" and discuss "important" issues. But that's not what is going on up there. How many years have they been running this thing and the dysfunction in the region has hardly improved. By that measure alone, the concept of this conference has been an abject failure.

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Originally Posted by Huggybear

They can't really do that. In a sense, these follow the pattern of management retreats, which are often held away from work sites [[or here, peoples' home turf) to prevent distractions. If you held this in Metro Detroit, no one would come. And if they did, people would be ducking out to answer phone calls or go to "emergency" meetings. Getting people a few hours from work and home is an easy way to make sure they stay on task [[whatever it is supposed to be).

Mackinac is not Monaco [[or Scottsdale) - no one has to fly there, many people do it on their own dime, and smaller organizations often go to double occupancy. People can rail about $400 a night hotel rooms, but this is a short conference, and many people don't even stay for the whole thing. And in the context of the relevant budgets, it's not even a blip.

This type of thing only gets attention because it superficially resembles super-abusive things like pension fund trips. Those trips are hugely expensive trips for "educational" purposes. Things like Mackinac serve a different purpose: getting a dialogue together between disparate interests. As a taxpayer, I am totally fine with local government paying a grand or so per person to go - our region is so dysfunctional that every little bit helps.

HB

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Aw geez, poor little officials, they only get to go to Mackinac and not Monaco, and they don't even FLY! [[I wonder if their arms get tired?) Where can I send some money? Maybe we could start a "Snyders Kids" telethon?

For what it's worth, conferences are only as good as the people who attend them. If you go only for the golf or the dinners, they're a waste of time and money. If you go to learn something, or get a better idea of how to do something, they're worth their weight in gold.

As a councilman in a small town out here in Washington, I've attended a number of these types of events [[alas, none in a lavish resort), and at the last one, was able to make contact with a consultant whose work will end up saving my little town about $40k, which to us is a BIG hunk of change. These types of events DO have value, but that value has to be made by the attendee.

That's an image!

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Aw geez, poor little officials, they only get to go to Mackinac and not Monaco, and they don't even FLY! [[I wonder if their arms get tired?)

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i'm surprised! surprised that someone who gets a free trip to a hotel + golf + dinners suggests these retreats are useful.

couldnt the consultant just call the councilperson at his office to advertise his/her wares? or are you saying you dont answer the phone at work? you only talk business in person, at a resort or hotel, over a game of golf?

i'm just pulling your leg here. but from your story, it doesnt sound like the place to meet the consultant is important. you have to explain it to us laypeople.

i think you'll find the reason most people are complaining is because they dont have to go to retreats to get their jobs done. whats so special about your job that requires this?
it doesnt help matters that your job is paid for with our tax dollars. that these retreats are sometimes paid for with our tax dollars.

more reasons that dont work for laypeople:
its the way its always been done
govt jobs come with these kinds of "perks"
other cities/states have similar conferences!
since we cant get along in the office, we have to go play golf, on your dime and time, to rub elbows in a non-work environment.

turkia mullen was at this conference. i think WWJ said she was looking for a job. another severance package another day i guess.

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Originally Posted by Novine

How many years have they been running this thing and the dysfunction in the region has hardly approved.

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Did you mean to say "improved"?

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Originally Posted by Huggybear

They can't really do that. In a sense, these follow the pattern of management retreats, which are often held away from work sites [[or here, peoples' home turf) to prevent distractions. If you held this in Metro Detroit, no one would come. And if they did, people would be ducking out to answer phone calls or go to "emergency" meetings. Getting people a few hours from work and home is an easy way to make sure they stay on task [[whatever it is supposed to be).

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I'm sure they all brought with them their cell phones, laptops, & tablets in order to still get "important" calls, check their e-mail, send texts, & stay connected etc. The "leave the distractions behind" argument is one that I can't be convinced of with these high tech devices around.

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Originally Posted by jackie5275

I'm sure they all brought with them their cell phones, laptops, & tablets in order to still get "important" calls, check their e-mail, send texts, & stay connected etc. The "leave the distractions behind" argument is one that I can't be convinced of with these high tech devices around.

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Good point. There are multiple ways these days to hold meetings, discussions, etc., that are more cost effective then what's being spent on HI or Mackinac. They want to "break bread", have a BBQ in LBP's backyard. Heck, have one on Belle Isle!

"Did you mean to say "improved"?"

Yes. Appreciate the correction.

I think it is interesting that most of the folks who are voicing their displeasure are not the usual DY Picnic attendees.

No point, just an observation.

I wonder if Joann Watson is a usual attendee at the Mac Conference?

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Originally Posted by gnome

I think it is interesting that most of the folks who are voicing their displeasure are not the usual DY Picnic attendees.

No point, just an observation.

I wonder if Joann Watson is a usual attendee at the Mac Conference?

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I wonder if she'll attend the DY Picnic?

^^^ Umm, I think that'll be a NO!

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I wonder if she'll attend the DY Picnic?

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Sure. She never met a pork chop she didn't like.

Nice broadcast of Michelle Rhee's speech at the conference. Just listening to Fahle interview now. I didn't know she was a Democrat. Knew she was from Toledo. She said she was born in Michigan.

Michelle Rhee is a "Democrat" like Lanny Davis is a "Democrat", a label that neither lets get in the way of doing the bidding of their corporate masters.

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Originally Posted by Novine

Michelle Rhee is a "Democrat" like Lanny Davis is a "Democrat", a label that neither lets get in the way of doing the bidding of their corporate masters.

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Did you listen to hear speech? What bidding do you think she's doing?

During the Friday 'Fahles', someone commented that the labels on Rhee do not reflect the nuances in her positions. The teacher's union attacks on her speak more about the union than about her.

Listen to her interview and then decide.

Talk is cheap. Ms. Rhee has enough of a track record to judge her on her actions.

NO surprise there at least not for me... I don't assume certain behavior and policies to be 'exclusive' to the repubs. That's just the line we are fed...[[dems do this, republicans always do that rubbish)

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Originally Posted by Novine

Michelle Rhee is a "Democrat" like Lanny Davis is a "Democrat", a label that neither lets get in the way of doing the bidding of their corporate masters.

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I think it would be better to have foreign country consulates and trade reps take part.

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Originally Posted by Novine

Talk is cheap. Ms. Rhee has enough of a track record to judge her on her actions.

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In 2010, Rhee and the unions agreed on a new contract that offered 20 percent pay raises and bonuses of $20,000 to $30,000 for "strong student achievement," in exchange for weakened teachers' seniority protections and the end of teacher tenure for one year. Under this new agreement, Rhee fired 241 teachers, the vast majority of whom received poor evaluations, and put 737 additional school employees on notice.^[21] Of the dismissed teachers, 76 were dismissed in accordance with the No Child Left Behind Act because they lacked proper teaching certification.^[22] 26 other teachers were dismissed because their students had continually received low scores on the District of Columbia Comprehensive Assessment System.^[22] Teachers were observed by administrators and outside professionals for five 30-minute sessions during the year, and the teachers' performance was rated during those sessions.^[22] Teachers who received fewer than 175 out of 400 points were deemed ineffective and were dismissed.^[22]Teachers who received between 175 and 249 points were deemed minimally effective and given a one-year warning to improve their performance

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Her record speaks well for her. Pay raises for excellent teachers. The boot for uncertified and low-rated teachers. Or we can just keep on as is and double per-pupil spending again and see how that goes.

I'm glad the attendees heard her talk, I hope with an open mind. Not hate because she is willing to hurt a few adults in the pursuit of education for children.

Are the charter schools all requiring their teachers to be certified? The requirement should be across the board.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

Are the charter schools all requiring their teachers to be certified? The requirement should be across the board.

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So quick to worry about charters. Always looking hard for something to beat them up with.

There's a difference. If a charter fails to educate, they are gone. If the DPS fails to educate, they just get more money. So you see the difference? Government directly run schools => certified to protect against nepotism and bureaucratic stupidity/favoritism. Charter schools => anything goes and let the parents decide if they're good.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Thanks for setting the record straight Gnome...

Mackinac Policy Conference is NOT the same thing as the Mackinac Center...

This certainly wasn't one of the better threads on this forum...

And another thing... get the spelling right... it's Mackinaw City only... otherwise it's the Straights of Mackinac... Mackinac Bridge and Mackinac Island... and yes... Mackinac Policy Conference...

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Mackinac Policy Conference is put on by the Detroit Chamber of Commerce. http://www.detroitchamber.com/mpc/

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

So quick to worry about charters. Always looking hard for something to beat them up with.

There's a difference. If a charter fails to educate, they are gone. If the DPS fails to educate, they just get more money. So you see the difference? Government directly run schools => certified to protect against nepotism and bureaucratic stupidity/favoritism. Charter schools => anything goes and let the parents decide if they're good.

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Charter schools in themselves are hardly the answer to poor schools. In many ways they can be seen as a drain of resources from the public schools. Many of the problems school districts are experiencing comes from a loss of students to charters. They have built an infrastructure to take care of x number of kids only to see that they now have empty schools. Charters also increase the amount parents have to drive to get their kids to schools. No buses!

We have set up a school system that is a lot like DDOT and SMART operating on the same route but serving different passengers. It duplicative and wasteful.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Charter schools in themselves are hardly the answer to poor schools. In many ways they can be seen as a drain of resources from the public schools. Many of the problems school districts are experiencing comes from a loss of students to charters. They have built an infrastructure to take care of x number of kids only to see that they now have empty schools. Charters also increase the amount parents have to drive to get their kids to schools. No buses!

We have set up a school system that is a lot like DDOT and SMART operating on the same route but serving different passengers. It duplicative and wasteful.

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They may or may not be the answer. I do understand your logic. They are certainly a stress on public schools.

The counter-argument is that public schools were their own drain on public resources. Per pupil spending by public schools has skyrocketed. Quality has not. Simply increasing funding to public schools didn't work. Parents in wealthier areas just buy education for the children. Parents in poorer areas have fewer choices. Ms. Rhee didn't want to support Charters, but she also couldn't bring herself to tell parents that they have no choice but to send their kids to schools that weren't delivering results.

DDOT and SMART are two public monopolies serving what is one region. You might choose to look instead at Delta vs. Southwest.

I do not believe that the problems with urban schools today are mainly the result of defunding in favor of charters.

"I'm glad the attendees heard her talk, I hope with an open mind. Not hate because she is willing to hurt a few adults in the pursuit of education for children."

No mention of the cheating scandals during Rhee's tenure? Using student performance as the basis for raises or firings? Who could imagine that might turn out badly...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rhee-included/

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Parents in wealthier areas just buy education for the children. Parents in poorer areas have fewer choices. Ms. Rhee didn't want to support Charters, but she also couldn't bring herself to tell parents that they have no choice but to send their kids to schools that weren't delivering results.

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The difference is mostly a social one, not a geographic one. A child with parents who are active in their education will excell. Major issues that the poor areas have are that too many parents are dis-engaged. This disengagement may be due to working too many hours or in other cases a lack of caring.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"I'm glad the attendees heard her talk, I hope with an open mind. Not hate because she is willing to hurt a few adults in the pursuit of education for children."

No mention of the cheating scandals during Rhee's tenure? Using student performance as the basis for raises or firings? Who could imagine that might turn out badly...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rhee-included/

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I knew there were accusations. I don't see that they have much substance. Read your article, and have read others. Lots of accusations by people with vested interests. Do you put weight in birthers, too? A lot of the quotations were from people with vested interests. Randi Weingarten? She think the most important thing she can do is look into cheating in Washington DC? What a surprise. No, there's no politics at play here are there.

All said, cheating in testing environments is a valid issue. Doesn't mean testing is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

There's a difference. If a charter fails to educate, they are gone.

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This is simply not true. Some charters do get closed, but there are many charters that continue to exist despite more-or-less total academic failure. Check out [[for example) Covenant House East in Detroit. Casa Richard [[another Detroit charter) actually improved substantially last year, but it should have been closed years ago if remaining open were dependent upon educational success.

MW, I thought charter attendance was voluntary. AFAIK, remaining open only works if the parents don't make another choice. Maybe as bad as these academies are, the parents like it better than DPS?

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

MW, I thought charter attendance was voluntary. AFAIK, remaining open only works if the parents don't make another choice. Maybe as bad as these academies are, the parents like it better than DPS?

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It is true that charters can't remain open if no one chooses them, but that isn't the same thing at all. Most parents [[and I'm not only talking Detroit parents here) have a limited ability to figure out which schools are the right ones academically for their kids. Parents may also have other priorities, like a convenient location or school hours or keeping their kids away from a particularly undesirable gang.

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Originally Posted by mwilbert

It is true that charters can't remain open if no one chooses them, but that isn't the same thing at all. Most parents [[and I'm not only talking Detroit parents here) have a limited ability to figure out which schools are the right ones academically for their kids. Parents may also have other priorities, like a convenient location or school hours or keeping their kids away from a particularly undesirable gang.

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Valid concerns.

So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Valid concerns.

So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children.

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I'm not against charters, I just don't believe that bad charters get shut down promptly or that most parents make good decisions, that most parents are capable of using information effectively, or that they necessarily have goals that are in alignment with what the general public might think are the goals of public education.

As I have stated many times on this forum, I don't think the DPS should exist at all. I don't really believe in vouchers in general, for the reasons I just mentioned as well as some others, but if there was ever a district that should be voucherized, DPS is it.

"So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children."

Or how about this novel idea, the organizations that are supposed to be overseeing the charters actually provide some oversight. Also, since they are spending taxpayer dollars, provide some transparency and oversight into the operations of those spending the tax dollars.

"All said, cheating in testing environments is a valid issue. Doesn't mean testing is a bad idea."

Who said testing was a bad idea? Tying teacher pay and bonuses to student performance on testing has led to cheating scandals in multiple school district. That's a sign that the incentive structure that Rhee advocates for is causing serious problems in those districts. No wonder Rhee doesn't want to talk about the possibility of cheating in DC schools.

That conference at the Grand Hotel in Mackinaw Island is means nothing for me and the State of Michigan. Just polticians TALK, TALK, TALK and not implementing plans.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children."

Or how about this novel idea, the organizations that are supposed to be overseeing the charters actually provide some oversight. Also, since they are spending taxpayer dollars, provide some transparency and oversight into the operations of those spending the tax dollars.

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Since the parents are taxpayers, just give parents transparency. Oversight by bureaucrats doesn't impress me much.

"All said, cheating in testing environments is a valid issue. Doesn't mean testing is a bad idea."

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Originally Posted by Novine

Who said testing was a bad idea? Tying teacher pay and bonuses to student performance on testing has led to cheating scandals in multiple school district. That's a sign that the incentive structure that Rhee advocates for is causing serious problems in those districts. No wonder Rhee doesn't want to talk about the possibility of cheating in DC schools.

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Just because a few errant teachers and administrators acted criminally isn't reason to stop rewarding the best teachers, and getting rid of the worst. Just because teachers are afraid that some will get unfairly dismissed, isn't reason to let substandard teachers stay on the job and impeding education.

I don't know if Rhee intentionally ran from a scandal. But what I do know is that teacher's unions use any scandal as an excuse to stop reform. Needed reform. For goodness sake, they're against MORE money for teachers, unless its unconditional and applied to all teachers, including those who suck. Whose side are they on? Children? I'm not seeing it.

"Since the parents are taxpayers, just give parents transparency. Oversight by bureaucrats doesn't impress me much.'

Not good enough. All of us who pay taxes should be assured that, not just the parents of the students, especially since those without kids in the education system are paying the majority of the taxes.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Aw geez, poor little officials, they only get to go to Mackinac and not Monaco, and they don't even FLY! [[I wonder if their arms get tired?) Where can I send some money? Maybe we could start a "Snyders Kids" telethon?

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Did you miss the point that this is an inexpensive gathering?

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Originally Posted by noise

Did you miss the point that this is an inexpensive gathering?

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Sorry mon, but that's all relative.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Sorry mon, but that's all relative.

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Right, and when related to the larger budget I'm sure you'd find it to be minuscule.

The politicians from the UP would probably find it more expensive to meet in Detroit. I'm sure the hotel offers a conference rate, like every other hotel everywhere.