Is this due to other cities taking their business or something else? Any insiders with some info
http://www.freep.com/article/2013031...of-its-tenants
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Is this due to other cities taking their business or something else? Any insiders with some info
http://www.freep.com/article/2013031...of-its-tenants
Stop your schadenfreude trolling. Rents are now so high in Birmingham that many otherwise successful businesses can't afford to be there.
No, it's actually true; it's a total bloodbath in Birmingham.Quote:
Originally Posted by Det_ard
My street is littered with firebombed carcasses, Maple Road has become a nonstop killing field, and Quarton Lake mansions, now filled with hobos and squatters, are being given away for free.
The wealthy and trendy have long since decamped for Highland Park, Brightmoor, and River Rouge, and the city is a virtual wasteland.
This has been going on for a while. You might call it bistro-fatigue. Forte led the way last year, closing after even a reconceptualization.
If a place is fun, approachable, lively, casual and quirky, and serves food that doesn't have a lot of intimidating French names [[or, for that matter, anything that smacks of excessive cost) on it, it still might do well. Toast does very well there.
That said, it's always difficult to make a restaurant work in such territory, given the prices per foot it all leases for there. There's less of a premium on real estate on the other side of Woodward, though. Forest Grill does pretty well over there.
That's too bad, Barrio was pretty good. I think the underlying problem is it's simply a pretty big space - the only way you could call it a bistro is that they laid out the tables far apart so there weren't that many seats. If you're paying taxes on square footage, you need to keep that place *packed* to turn a profit.
They should subdivide that place, and the old Arhaus space - I think property taxes are just too high to support anything other than a big chain taking up that much space.
Maybe they could try a wig & nail shop?
So Downtown Birmingham is dying! What the city council and its business commerce are going to do? Kick out of the those who wear gang colors, homeless folks with shopping carts, DEAD [[c) KRAK HEADS, squatters ect...
So far I don't see Downtown Birmingham dying. Just rich folks increasing rent to lure inverstors and build more superlofts and fancy coffee shops. That would lure hip cool black lining glasses, skinny pants and jeaned out of college hipter kids.
It elicited such responses becuase it was an ignorant premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
Businesses open and close in all communities and for all types of reasons; your questions were obvious attempts at baiting.
But maybe I should expect no less, given that there's probably now a 5000-comment thread on a new downtown 7-11.
They're moving to Detroit to be next to all of the creative energy and for the better of the region.
No they weren't but project whatever you want. If the local papers felt the need to write an article I figured there was more to it than the usual churn so I asked a simple question. I have no doubt that the residential areas of Birmingham are doing just fine as are most QOL topics [[safety, schools, etc). This was a simple question about business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
It seems that RO went through a similar cycle years ago. Sorry about my curiosity about your neck of the woods due to an article in the local paper.
The irony is that you are the first person to knock other communities but a simple question results in your incorrect assumptions and smart ass comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I don't believe I commented on the 7-11 thread so that point is completely irrelevant. Contrary to what you seem to believe I have little to no interest in the 7-11 thread as it is a relatively insignificant thing as far as I'm concerned.
I assumed they would be moving to Warren because there is no other destination that would make more sense for a business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shollin
I don't know what specific time period you're referring to for Royal Oak, but I don't recall Birmingham ever having fewer vacancies than now.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
The specific block [[the Palladium building) has never been super-successful, though. It replaced the former Crowleys department store with a multiplex theater and big-box retail. The big box retail has never worked, because there isn't much retail in that part of downtown, and what exists certainly isn't big-box.
The most successful retail in Birmingham is generally small scale, independent, and on Maple west of Old Woodward. Generally speaking, Maple is a much better location than Woodward for retail, while restaurants have generally done best on side streets.
In any case, I bet you that Palladium building won't work unless they convert to smaller spaces, or maybe do something radical, like convert to office. Big-box retail doesn't work in any downtown area in Michigan.
I will say that many city resident don't like the way downtown is trending. The area used to be very neighborhood/local oriented, and now seems to be filled with tons of flashy nonresidents. Contrary to popular opinion, most locals are just normal people living normal lives, but the downtown streets are increasingly filled with Kim Kardashian lookalikes, d-bags hanging out all night, people flaunting sportscars, and the like. We've even had multiple shootings in two supposedly upscale "clubs" [[both since shut down).
Birmingham tends to be kind of WASPy and plain, and would rather be Greenwich, CT than Beverly Hills, CA, if that makes any sense.
There's also too many bistro's! Most of them are very expensive for the middle class. Rich folks are interested throwing their birthday parties for their spoiled children. Even so with corporate parties and charitable events. Let's tell those rich landlords to bring in the clothiers, dollar stores and toy and gift shops.
Downtown Birmingham have those mom and pop stores along Old Woodward St. and Maple Rd since the late 1800s to the 1950s now their almost all gone. It's time to make Downtown Birmingham shopping available for middle class not to rich folks.
The way of fewer bistros’s closed nest to Palladium Theater Complex. Downtown Birmingham is a small piece of suburban blight in the corner.
Thank you for the informative reply. This helps put the story in context and makes a lot of sense. What I was thinking in respect to RO was [[I'm guessing) about 5 years ago when it seemed a lot of the retail got displaced and ultimately replaced with restaurants/bars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
if memory serves some of the retail moved but stayed in the general downtown RO area or adjoining streets.
Warren isn't relevant because they aren't getting international attention for being bankrupt. Birmingham isn't relevant either because everyone confuses it with Birmingham Alabama.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
I would love for "normal" stores to replace the useless junk. We have an olive oil store, a toy store selling purple things, two pet accesesory boutiques, a Venezuelan summer dress store, and a "limited edition" designer sneaker store.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
Among a myriad of other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shollin
Are the spaces that small that allows them to be that niche or are the owners just not willing to expand their offerings? Seems like an olive oil store could include coffees, spices, unique sauces, etc. probably the same captive audience that would get other things in the same trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Some of these "niche" stores aren't really profit-oriented. I know this sounds absolutely crazy, but I know two owners of "niche" boutiques, and they're both spouses of very successful professionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
This sounds horrible and sexist, but they're both basically a way to "keep the wife busy". I would be really surprised if some of these stores turn a profit.
Warren isn't relevant because if it were bankrupt no one would care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shollin
Danny not all rich kids are spoiled although you seem very delusional about perpetuating that myth. I am guessing you have never owned commercial property? What is the problem for getting a good return on your investment? So landlords are supposed to just make their properties available for free? Last time I checked this was still a market economy[[for the most part) and as such the owner of the property is free to charge what the market will bare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
As for Downtown B'ham for the 50ish years I have been alive the area has always upscale shopping, the small upscale shops started moving out in the 1980's and were replaced by those who could afford the rents. The same thing that is happening now, just the market shaking itself out. Many of those from the 1980's moved to Royal Oak fueling that area's growth.
I have worked retail on and off for many years and what works best is low end or high end. The middle never makes a dollar.
These large nightclubs/restaurants don't necessarily make enough money to justify the enormous rents that are being charged for these spaces. Plus, some of them are lower-level/basement that aren't visible from the street.
The Palledium block has all sorts of issues and a stigma attached that does not necessarily draw in the demographics that live in Birmngham/Bloomfield.
Those spaces are huge, and while they may do well on weekends, they are not pulling in the crowds the other 4-5 nights a week to cover the huge overhead costs.
Zazios is reopening this spring with a new name, owner, and format.
The property of Max & Ermas is reopening in a new steakhouse format [[as if B'ham needs another steakhouse, but the demand is there and it makes money).
That place was really expensive and bad, IMO. Glad to hear it's being replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by DTWflyer
Does the same go for office space? Seems like there is a ton of "for lease"/available signs all over newly constructed office space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Zazios was doomed by its reputation and location. Word got around that this place was mediocre at best. People gave it the benefit of the doubt and tried it were never really wanting to go back.
I can't think of any new office buildings in Birmingham, except for the one with Zazios.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
In any case, I don't know anything about local office vacancy rates. But for retail vacancies, there don't appear to be many downtown, especially compared to a few years ago.
High end residential, however, is silly season in Birmingham. Downtown has a few 100% vacant, recently constructed super tacky "luxury" condos. Apparently the developers are shocked that no one is paying 2 million to live in a cheapy built condo, when they could buy a gigantic waterfront estate at that price here in Michigan.
Where exactly are you referring? As far as I know, there continues to be strong demand for office space in and around downtown Birmingham. They couldn't get enough of it last year, so perhaps a bunch just hit the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
There are plenty of less than desirable spaces available east of Woodward along the Maple/Adams/Woodward Triangle District, but much of that needs updating and renovation.
Agreed as there are some properties - residential, commerical, and office space that is priced unreasonably compared to what the market will bear.
There are some developers in Birmingham that have some outrageous asking prices, compared to neighboring communities.
One example is there is a vacant double lot near where I live that is currently selling for $350K. The houses next door can be bought for anywhere from $150-$250K.
Well there is that new building on Maple and Woodward that is not full. Totally anecdotal from my perspective, maybe I've just noticed more signs/adverts about open space.Quote:
Originally Posted by DTWflyer
They built that in the middle of the recession, which was weird to me. A wealth advisory firm, new to the area, took most of the space. But yeah, the building definitely has vacancies, and the retail space hasn't worked out either.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
IMO, Birmingham is overvalued and way too much speculation. Probably not a good "bang for buck".
Agreed. That whole Greenleaf Trust Building never has made a whole lot of sense to me. Granted, its better than the abandoned gas station that sat there for several years. Retail is never going to work in that location since it just does not get the foot traffic, and never will at the far end of town. Yes, its close to a parking garage, but no street level traffic. I know they keep discussing plans for the blocks on almost all sides - NW corner of Maple & Woodward, SE corner, and the vacant lot within the same block south of Peabody's.
Birmingham is way overvalued and on speculation. I noticed the tear-downs starting up for the season, particularly in the neighborhoods surrounding Pembrooke Park. It seems like they are going in and knocking down every one story ranch/bungalow on Derby & Pembrook street between last year and getting whats left this year.
I know of another instance of where an investor from New York has bought up about 20+ bungalows in Birmingham [[typically ones where the previous owner had it for like 30 years, and got it on the cheap), their brother is doing all the renovations, and they are flipping them on to the rental market. Basically buying up places fom $150-$200K and putting them on the rental market for $1700 - $2000/month.
I thought the game plan for downtown Birmingham was to attract a clientele beyond Birmingham/Bloomfield? Otherwise, how else could the expansion of Birmingham's entertainment district over the past two decades be supported? There certainly hasn't been an equivalent population boost in the area over the same period of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DTWflyer
I just have little use for most of downtown Bham, and I was raised there. Those little vanity project boutiques are just too precious. the food is overpriced and over-rated at virtually every restaurant I've been to. and don't get me started on the plastic people I see there
only if you define "clientele" old white women who lunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Quote:
In 2011, the Dali Group was involved in a proposal to convert the Buca di Beppo and Arhaus space into a family entertainment center called Play Birmingham that would offer bowling, electronic golf, plus a restaurant and sweet shop. But city officials weren't real keen on the idea, raising concerns about the number of teenagers already hanging out in that area, and whether the operators could provide adequate supervision. When told it could not stay open past midnight on weekends, the plan was pulled off the table.
They certainly have been aiming for more than old white women who lunch. When I was last in Birmingham, some of the bar/restaurants I went to looked like they were attempting to recreate Manhattan's Meatpacking District in suburban Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Sometimes the retail ambitions of the business owners don't mesh well with the interests of the residents. As rents rise, only the highest-profit/sq ft uses can afford space, which are likely to be less diverse than the needs of the locals. For purposes of residents, 50 boutiques in a retail district are probably less useful than 48 boutiques and a hardware store. On the other hand, people are drawn from elsewhere by the boutiques, while a hardware store is of little use to them.
Birmingham really doesn't even have the dining appeal. Its just a few steakhouses and restaurants with fancy names that close every 2 years selling overpriced food. You walk in there and spend $25 for lunch and come out looking for the nearest Burger King because you're still hungry. I like the dining scene more in Ferndale, Royal Oak, Detroit. Its affordable, unique, and tasty.
right on Cliffy. the food is terrible and the portions small.
You might want to stay out of bham until they get with your standards. You know, protest the Man keeping you down with those 79 restaurants in town. No fair making you pay $25 hard-earned dollars when $5 bucks is more than enough. Shit man, I'm right there with you. Having to work all day for one meal is bogus; I say stay the heck away until they learn their lesson.
There is some really good stuff up there -- Social Kitchen & Bar, Townhouse Bistro, Bella Piatti, Commonwealth -- but it's all quite pricey. The fine dining crowd in Detroit just isn't large enough to support dozens and dozens of such places. And in a world that's only getting more unequal ...
To paraphrase Yogi, nobody goes to Birmingham to eat anymore, it's always too crowded.
Depends on what kind of clientele you're referring to. They sure don't want kids - unless they're being pushed in strollers. Those groups of young people hanging around on weekend nights during the summer are making people real nervous.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
There have been incidents, though. It's not just crochety old Republican scardy-cats.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
My friend's car windows were smashed in, and there were some violent incidents.
No one wants a bunch of surly teenagers hanging out where they live. Teenagers suck.
On the other hand, city officials don't seem to understand that if you want your city to be a "regional entertainment destination" you're going to get rowdy kids too. It comes with the territory.
Yep, you've got it. On one hand you have had the city planners trying to make Birmingham into a regional entertainment destination, but on the other side you have residents and a police force that do not want to deal with the issues that that bring in [[e.g., noise, traffic, vandalism, loitering, theft).
No one wants another situation like South or Blue Martini.
At times I feel like there is some concerted effort on the part of realtors, investors, and city planners to make Birmingham into something that isn't natural and goes against the laws of supply and demand. There is only a finite market and it sure seems like everything is on speculation.....
The only ones staying in business are Big Rock, Flemings, and a couple other ones. The ones that are mentioned here just opened within the past few years and will probably be closed and replaced by the next new age "Fusion" restaurant. If you want a good steak, go down to fairway packing and pick up some dry aged steaks at $30 a piece and fire up the bbq.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
I had a thread in here late last year on Rochester, Birmingham, and Ferndale having the so-called "vibrant downtowns" with few vacancies yet the downtowns were full of precious little "shoppes" rather than shopping and if you really needed to find something, you didn't go to downtown Rochester, Birmingham, or Ferndale, you went to Hall Road.
Like Streetside Seafood. And Dick O'Dows. And Phonecia. And Chen Chow. And Birmingham Sushi. And Tokyo Sushi. And New Bangkok. And Mitchell's. And Cameron's. And 220. And Hunter House. And Peabody's. And Sy Thai. And Greek Islands. And Kilwins. And Rugby Grille / Corner Bar. And Mountain King Chineese. And Salvatore. And Brooklyn Pizza. And Toast. And Elie's. And a couple chain places like Cosi, Leo's and Qdoba. Just in downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy
But yeah, other than them, tons of turnover.
bottom line - for the most part you can get better food at better prices in a better atmosphere almost everywhere else
Does Birmingham still have a ton of teenagers hanging out uptown at night?
I grew up in B'ham and went to Birmingham Public Schools from K-12. While I am thankful of the education I received and the upbringing I had, I am very happy I do not live there anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkytofu
Yep. The difference, though, is that there are now far more teenagers, and they're mostly "not from the community", or that's the impression people have. The two multiplexes and the various hangouts [[Panera, etc.) draw the teens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkytofu
Birmingham Schools are quite good, but they really aren't close to the top in Oakland County.
IMO there are plenty of reasons to live in Birmingham, but you can get the same or better education in many Oakland County communities, and always with lower taxes and far lower home prices.
Birmingham also seems to do a poor job keeping out nonresident children whose parents illegally claim a Birmingham address. Places like the Pointes are almost militaristic in their procedures, but it works. In Birmingham, they're lax, and nonresident parents know it.
I don't know how to quantify any of this, but I would say, excepting maybe downtown Detroit, there is no place in Metro Detroit with comparable restaurant quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by rb336
Forest Grill is probably the best restaurant in Michigan. There are a whole host of very good restaurants. I can't think of really any unacceptably bad "nice" restaurants, like you have in Royal Oak, with abominations like Sangria, Andiamo, Mr. B's, or Little Tree.
There aren't many cheap sit-down places [[some mediocre Thai and Indian places) compared to other suburbs, because you don't have the ethnic communities and cheap strip malls here. If you want good Vietnamese or wherever, it's off to Madison Heights.
FYI - Kilwins abruptly closed at the end of Feb. I suspect it was mostly due rent costs as their stores as a whole company-wide are doing well and they are expanding into new markets.
Comparing which school district is the "best" is very subjective, although I would have to argue that as a whole Birmingham schools are still one of the top districts in Oakland County. Birmingham is in the top-tier with the Troy, Bloomfield, Novi, Rochester districts that all have extremely high test scores, high college placements rates, and excellent parental involvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Birmingham School District pulls from a hodge-podge of areas too, so you have Groves H.S which pulls in parts of Southfield, West Bloomfield, and Franklin.
To your last point, there is also some amount of less desireable rental properties along the borders on Maple and 14 Mile that do pull in people from other communities. Often times they may have a family member or relative there and they send there kids to school in the district. Granted, they just want their kids to have a chance and believe that a BPS education may give them that opportunity.
Either way parental involvement in a child's education is just as important if not more important that good schools.
Ann Arbor for sure... Unless you don't want to count that as Metro Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Yeah, you're right; Ann Arbor too. I still think of Metro Detroit as just tri-county area.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
I think the article explained it. I work in downtown Birmingham, and there are so many new restaurants that have opened down here in the past 18 months that some of the weaker concepts are going to lose out to their competitors. Barrio definitely fell into this category. They tried too hard to create a posh Mexican menu. I recall caviar-stuffed enchiladas being one of the menu choices. They were also priced too high for Mexican food. A regular Mexican-style restaurant would have probably fared much better.
There's something really wrong about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by artds
I was not terribly impressed with Forest Grill either time I went. I had lunch and got onion soup. it was OK at best. It pales next to the Common Grill's.
I went to dinner at around 6 once, and an hour and a half after ordering there was no trace of our food. We got up to leave and they expected me to pay a bill for what we never got. I told them what I thought of THAT idea
I'm not terribly confident that this place is "best restaurant in Michigan".Quote:
Originally Posted by rb336
Obviously there is no actual way to determine the "best" restaurant, but if you ask foodies, it would be at or near the top of their list. In any case, it has been "Restaurant of the Year" and is definitely the destination dining place for foodies visiting the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I've been there four times, and every meal was excellent.
And re. the enchiladas with caviar, that basically encapsulates everything that's wrong with Birmingham today. Overhyped, flashy to the point of ridiculousness, and trying desperately to be some Midwest version of Beverly Hills or whatever plastic Sunbelt place.
And it should be a crime to mix Mexican street food with caviar of all things, which is supposed to be served ice-cold. Why not try and make a good enchilada, which is hard enough to find in this part of the world.
I'm still not sure I agree. I have been to a lot of the "best" restaurants in the state, including Forest Grill. It's good. I think that's the consensus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
There are things like Zagat ratings, or Yelp for that matter.
I understand where you're coming from, though. Not trying to argue. I was a little taken aback by the tone or confidence of your initial comment, which you've since clarified. It's all good.
Well, the identity of any particular place is bound to change over time. By the late 1980s, Birmingham was already a place with more than a few fashionable restaurants. But it wasn't until the early 1970s that they even legalized selling wine by the glass. Prohibition hung on for a long time there, and in the ways it fiercely maintained its identity until it was long out of date. Maybe Birmingham is due for another change.Quote:
Originally Posted by DTWflyer
The landscape of Detroit is littered with 'downtowns' that are failed. By comparison, Birmingham has done a good job of reinventing itself. Perfect? No. But I think their downtown will survive in a way that isn't the case with Berkley, Southfield, Clawson.
One article about one development doesn't really tell you much about downtown Birmingham.
Ditto. Would you expand on what makes you say this?Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkytofu
When I'm home, outside of the major holidays when I get together with other old friends, Th-Sat Birmingham nightlife is full of tacky wannabes and obnoxious teens from neighboring cities. A lot has changed in the 7 years since I graduated high school. If I was forced to raise a family in Metro Detroit, Birmingham wouldn't crack the top 5. I'd probably consider "boring" enclaves like Clarkston, Rochester Hills or Commerce Twp.
Southfield has a downtown somewhere? I thought it was stripmalls, parking lots, and office buildings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Birmingham is fine. The only thing I notice is the residents complain a lot of about the trouble nightlife brings.
I don't think it's fine that's hundreds of parents drop their wild teenagers off to loiter on the weekends, or nightly during the summer months. Or that obnoxious and tacky do-nothings ruin what used to be rather civilized entertainment options, in my formerly safe and quiet hometown.Quote:
Originally Posted by D_Town
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
:confused: Which of these is not like the other.
Birmingham's vacancies aren't chronic. Restaurants are tough to operate. I'm sure in a year they'll be filled up
http://www.businessweek.com/stories/...nancial-advice
1 in 4 restaurants close or change ownership within their first year
3 in 5 restaurants do so within their first three years
This trend is consistent with the rates found in other industries for new businesses.
first rule for how to succeed in business? don't open a restaurantQuote:
Originally Posted by DTWflyer