At least 5 teenagers - possibly as many as 7 - were shot at the corner of W. Warren and Southfield earlier this afternoon.
http://www.wxyz.com/news/local/story...fQxiYZR_w.cspx
http://warrendale.blogspot.com/2009/...ting-at-w.html
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At least 5 teenagers - possibly as many as 7 - were shot at the corner of W. Warren and Southfield earlier this afternoon.
http://www.wxyz.com/news/local/story...fQxiYZR_w.cspx
http://warrendale.blogspot.com/2009/...ting-at-w.html
I feel better now. All I found today was a car on blocks stripped [[in place) outside of my house near downtown.
Sorry for the gallows humor; it's frustrating. Know it's a huge job to turn things around, but it would be nice to have some communication from the top.
The saddest thing is that we are not shocked by these occurrences anymore.:[[
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/...s_shot_detroit
From the AP
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31668085...me_and_courts/
MSNBC
Detroit needs more police on the streets and more gang squads.
I understand the DPD is understaffed and underfunded and has massive administrative problems and all that. But it is also clear that patrol officers are not properly deployed. Once again, I drove a good distance through town [[John R to Five Points via Six Mile) the other night and didn't see a single patrol car. I'm not in Detroit as often as I was in years past, but when I am, it seems there are great stretches of the city without any police presence.
A very sad day in Detroit. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and victims. We can not tolerate violence like this anywhere.
wow. i always felt "paranoid" over being concerned about getting caught by a stray bullet as i pass cody. i drive by that bus stop twice daily. it really is a shame when detroit meets these kinds of expectations, and turns silly fears and negative perceptions into destructive and deadly realities. quelle dommage.
I think it's important to remember that it's two gunmen. TWO people, only two, that did this. Not an entire city.
It's amazing how much damage can be done by so few, in just a few seconds.
two people produced by a violent, pervasive culture. the area is known for a lot of gang activity. drive through the neighborhoods and look at all the burned-out shells of homes with h-squad / hustle squad boldly painted on them. so, this is more than two people - this is their society. this is how their beefs are solved, over and over and over.
Until people start to value human life and return to a sense of morals and values, we will continue to witness crap like this. We live in a society that glorifies violence and these cockroaches think that the only way for respect is through the end of a gun, with the "I gotta keep it real" mentality and this is where it leads.
Until the families of these monsters take responsibility and teach their offspring the value of life, we wont see changes anytime soon.
That's about four blocks from the gym where I train. I was leaving there this afternoon shortly after the shooting and actually saw one of the victims laying on the ground. At the time I thought someone had been hit by a car, as that is a very busy intersection. I had no idea it was a shooting until hearing it later on the radio.
Everytime I leave the gym I drive right by that bus stop where the shooting occured. I could easily have been in that gas station at the time the shots were fired.
The constant stream of bad news is wearing me out.
digitalvision is right. Where is the mayor? Does he understand what is happening? Is he going to say anything? Do anything? Send us a message! Let us know you care!
definitely, hubbard! if bing is the leader that detroit needs, he will immediately call a press conference and deliver a sobering message to the city of detroit. he needs to motivate and reassure detroiters the same way that coaches energize and inspire players to win championships. and this game is not basketball; this game is life.
Instead of the standard mayoral press conference where you hear the same stuff about praying for the victims, let's hear the mayor admit we have animals living in this city and we need to solve this problem immediately.
As I said before, Bing is a wuss.
I'm in shock over this one. My hubby grew up in Warrendale and still has a sister in law in the old family home there. Also, my stepdaughter still lives there. I had heard from them that things were getting very bad over there, but always thought they were being alarmists. Now I guess they know better. I'm glad both of them are planning on getting out this summer now.
Government is a wuss. Let's find the degenerates and send them to the countryside for hard labor and turn them into real men.
Great to see Detroit on national news again.:eek:
This is one of those events that's relatively easy to understand and can in no way be explained away.
This wasn't some shooting that involved two bad groups or two bad parties, rather, as the papers have put pretty clearly, a brazen, mass daytime shooting of students at a place where any number of bystanders were and could have been caught in the crossfire. When someone feels this brave to pull off something like this on a busy thoroughfare in the middle of the day, something's wrong, and as we all know, that's an understatement.
This type of stuff makes me very, very angry.
Where is the outrage on behalf of our elected officials. There are way too many people in this city, region, and state that will not tolerate this type of behavior. What are we to since there is a collective failure on everyone's behalf here.
I again ask, where are the families of the perps?
I'm gonna assume they lack morals and values.... otherwise, why would their kinfolk behave in such manner?
To quote the words of the late[[great singer) Michal Jackson, "your playing with your life, this ain't no truth or dare" if you wanna stay alive just, better do what you can, so "beat it"...
The men who did this felt brave enough to do it because they did not fear being caught. A combination of decreased police patrols, slower response times and a public that is either too afraid or too apathetic to cooperate with law enforcement has turned the city of Detroit into a criminal's paradise. Stuff like this doesn't happen in New York City, at least not with the alarming frequency that it occurs in Detroit and Detroit has a fraction of the population. Why? New York City has effective policing.
Bottom line, killers should be thrown away in prison for life...
I don't care why they did the crime, just remove the scum from socieity...
We need some major reforms in DPD, and about 1,000 more officers on the streets. Now.
I challenge all the storefront churches in Detroit[[you are our soldiers), call out the killers, there is no reason to harbor and shelter criminals, turn they asses in...
Why, so the people can say the cops are killing residents?
I feel for Detroit's Finest, as they are in a no-win situation. If they chase, and accidentally kill the criminals, they are labeled "killers", if they fail in their pursuit, they are called useless and incidental.
WAKE UP DETROIT, until you take back the streets, you will continue to enjoy the status quo...
For what it's worth, since this thread started, I've posted 4 updates to the blog post at the top as more details came in.http://warrendale.blogspot.com/2009/...ting-at-w.html
A couple of the highlights:
- DPD has located the green minivan that the 2 shooters drove off in;
- They also obtained the surveillance tapes from the gas station;
There are also reports - both neighborhood gossip and details reported in the Freep - that this happened as a result of some argument or another that happened earlier at the school The bulk of the victims were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
There have been lots of posts placing blame on the families who should have raised these kids better, the police or the mayor. Quite frankly, I'm angry enough to blame all of them.
The parents should have done done a better job at raising their off-spring. They ought to occupy a jail cell right next to them.
However, the fact of the matter is that there are always going to crappy parents and people like the two individuals who did this shooting. This is why the police exist in the first place: to protect the rest of us from the results of bad parenting.
Let's not forget that this is the same neighborhood where, two years ago, two boys [[ages 11 and 13) were gunned in their own home by a group of drug dealers. There was a surge of police activity immediately after that shooting. The Mayor and the City Council spoke out about it. The Mayor even made a point of it in his State of the City Address a couple of weeks later.
A few days later, though, it was like nothing ever happened. The police were gone. The drug dealers and gangs were back, as if it was nothing but a minor interruption in their lives.
As president of the Warrendale Community Organization, I pleaded with the Mayor and the City Council to invest more of our tax dollars into public safety in the aftermath of that shooting. They ignored me.
For those who follow my blog, I have warned repeatedly that another shooting was almost inevitable. The conditions that gave rise to the March 2007 shooting are still present today.
Instead of investing our money in public safety, they spent $19 million in City funds on the Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley project, which has thus far yielded one new restaurant.
Instead of investing our money in public safety, they decided to fund 5 different economic development agencies - none of which are doing a very good job.
Instead of investing our money in public safety, they went off and did a few hundred other incredibly stupid things.
As far as I am concerned, the blood of these 7 teenagers is on their hands. They had the ability to act. They had the responsibility to act. They chose not to.
It's that simple.
Detroitej72, 90 percent of Detroiters would welcome more cops on the streets, as long as the cops were properly trained and doing their jobs respectfully, responsibly and thoroughly -- and had the backing of city hall. That's not to say they'd be willing to stick their own necks out to help the cops, but if citizens saw some results from better policing, that mentality could change over time.
Fnemecek, hear hear. You're right on with that.
Well stated Fnemecek!!
I have acquaintances who live in the area, and have gotten gas at that Shell station at least 1/2 dozen times in the last few years.... just awful....
Ah yes, Warrendale. Cracktown. Joy Boy division. Awesome. Why is it that the only remaining residents in greater Detroit who seem to care are the elderly and gas station owners.
People don't care, don't care, really don't, don't really care, don't care at all.
Not only is thievery and thug murder lauded, it is rewarded, in they ghetto. That's just how it's become. Bing IS a friggin wuss. But who [[politician) isn't?
Any officer on the street has had hours and months of training before they are put on the street. There are hours of reading, studying the laws, studying individual rights, reviewing scenarios of possible confrontations, how to use a weapon properly, whether it be pistol or a taser; how to drive. They are prepared as policemen. Then....reality hits them the minute they are on the streets. They soon find out that EVERYTHING they learned in the academy doesn't mean a thing. If they taser, they are criticized. If they chase some criminal in a car and there is an accident where someone is killed, they are criticized. If they shoot someone because either their lives are in jeopardy or defending someone else, they are criticized. Instead of handcuffing the bad guys, the police are handcuffed themselves and condemned.
I don't know why anyone in their right mind would want to be a Detroit Police officer. They are the finest group of people in Michigan and yet no one appreciates what they do each and every day, especially the thugs in Detroit. The minute they leave the safety of their own homes, they put their lives on the line for every citizen in Detroit....do thugs like the shooters at the bus stop care....NO!
The good guys have no rights. The gangs, thieves, murderers, and extortionists have more rights than any law-abiding citizen...and you all know it.
Saw this story on HLN about 4:30am...if it's not one "positive" Detroit making national headlines, it's another [[insert eye roll!)
[[CNN) -- Seven people, at least five of them high-school students, were shot Tuesday at a bus stop in Detroit, Michigan, officials said.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/CR...oting.wdiv.jpg Tuesday's shooting occurred off school property, a Detroit Public Schools spokesman said.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element...er_wire_BL.gif
Two of the victims were in critical condition; the others were in serious condition at area hospitals, Police Chief Roderick Grimes said.
"Two perpetrators, possibly three, pulled up in a vehicle, exited their vehicle with weapons, asked for a person by name and then opened fire onto the crowd," he said.
"They got back in their vehicle and exited the scene."
Police Officer Leon Rahmaan described the vehicle as a green minivan and said the incident occurred about a mile from Cody High School at 2:30 p.m., as summer-school classes were ending for the day.
The shooters -- both of them male -- covered their faces with either masks or T-shirts, he said.
The incident occurred off school property, said Robert Bobb of the Detroit Public Schools, who said summer school would continue Wednesday as scheduled.
"Tomorrow, we'll have new leadership in place at the school," he said. "We want parents to bring their children, have their children continue to come to summer school here tomorrow."
No one was immediately taken into custody, police spokesman Dan Donakowski said.
Buy American, you are absolutely right....my father was a DP officer for more than 30 years. He is gone now, and he would have been so sad to see what the city that he loved, lived in and protected has become. I have the utmost respect for police officers, but why anyone would want that career these days is beyond me. But thank God for the ones that do...they deserve our respect and gratitude. They are "damned if they do, and damned if they don't" for sure. Policing is much different now.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/19916320/detail.html
Looks like one of them surrendered. Let's charge him for terrorism and send him off to Guantanamo. Good riddance to these animals
There's always trouble in the ghettohoods in Detroit.
That shooting incident in the Warrendale ghettohood was very illogical. It could be gang related. When I went through that area a while ago a new street gang called "Young Squads" have tagged various vacant and abandon homes around Archdale St. Grandmont St. south of W. Warren Ave. and Southfield FWY. and called it their territory. Such a once very beautiful white neighborhood now a part of gangland and folks who are living over there countinue to avoid their troubles and lock their iron doors.
For those students coming from Cody High School/ Bennett ninth grade wing. That shooting could be gang related. Mostly between "Chi-Town vs. Plymouth Boys" or Chi-Town vs. "Young Squads" Those gang are dormant, but can become active if other authority fights back.
Continue to pray for those students and their recovery.
WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET
More brothers killing brothers
Neda Soltani wants change and its going to come.
The stories indicate they were shot outside Cody 9th grade academy...
How is it all the schools in Detroit become reincarnated as academies? Cody was merely Cody when we were coming up.
As if adding the word "academy" after the name suddenly gives it some higher esteem. Merriam Webster defines academy as:
Main Entry: acad·e·my
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈka-də-mē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form[[s): plural acad·e·mies
Etymology: Latin academia, from Greek Akadēmeia, from Akadēmeia, gymnasium where Plato taught, from Akadēmos Attic mythological hero
Date: 1549
1 a: a school usually above the elementary level ; especially : a private high school
b: a high school or college in which special subjects or skills are taught
c: higher education —used with the<the functions of the academy in modern society>
2 capitalized
a: the school for advanced education founded by Plato
b: the philosophical doctrines associated with Plato's Academy
3: a society of learned persons organized to advance art, science, or literature
4: a body of established opinion widely accepted as authoritative in a particular field
Things that make you go hmmmm....
According to initial reports, the suspect has at least two previous contacts with police. What a surprise!
Until punk wannabe thugs like this are held up for ridicule by the community that they prey on, instead of glorified by thug culture, no progress will be made.
It's time for a change, people.
Cody 9th Grade Academy is supposedly different than Cody 10-12. They broke the 9th grade away from the rest of the students to give more focus to the 9th graders. I heard it isn't working the way they had planned. I think the Academy is housed in a small section of the building, although I am not 100% on this.
Wait a minute! Is DPS school board is closing the Cody 9th grade wing this fall?
What about LA or Chicago.
I read about stuff like this in the LA times all the time, and Chicago is a close second.
Teenagers normally do stupid stuff because they don't think they will get caught . I don't think Detroit has cornered the market on stupid teenagers.
quote: "...I don't think Detroit has cornered the market on stupid teenagers..."
True. But the City is right up there with the number of inept parents and clueless voters.
Sorry for the negativity, folks. It's been a bad week!
Compliments to Rob Bobb for promptly responding to the news reporters, even though the incident didn't take place on school property. As for the Mayor and Shitty Clown Show, yeah, they don't seem to give a shit. :mad: Where are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton? Oh yes, Al is out in Fantasyland with the father of YooHoo declaring that justice will be served. Can't pass up that photo op. They should be marching on the streets of Detroit demanding that black people stop killing each other [[or anyone else for that matter). But, no, that might be too offensive. Must wait till some white person can be found to blame.
al sharpton while reflecting on michael jackson's life: "Michael made young men and women all over the world imitate us..."
what "us?" "us," as in entertainers and musicians that hope to break through political, social, and economic barriers, through a common love of music, art, entertainment, and each other?
i'm really saddened by the odium from sharpton's podium - which is now michael jackson's sad passing. when i heard sharpton's remark, i just felt that if world peace were achieved, sharpton would bemoan his meaninglessness.
Speaking of Robert Bobb...I appreciate his prompt response, but he is the Emergency Financial Officer, not the Superintendent. Where were the Acting Supt. and members of the School Board?
I agree with Retroit on Robert Bobb. I don't recall any of the other DPS top leaders doing that recently, it speaks volumes for this man.
Since the state of the economy warrants for some officers to be laid off, then maybe a small compromise can be negotiated. Perhaps those left should be allowed to bring their own weaponry. At least make it a fair fight. You certainly can't bring a knife to a gunfight...I'm just saying.:rolleyes:
A black Detroit teenager has turned himself in to police for he maybe involved with the other two shooters at the bus stop. That Detroit black teenager maybe involved in the ghettohood gang war between the "Young Squads" vs the "Clown Sqauds".
The Clown Squads and the Young Squads are new cliques that evolved from The Joy Rds. and the Chi-Towns. So far the Young Squads have claimed Islamic Warrendale and Warrendale. Their territory and continue to spread their tagger of terror to the Dearborn borders and Rouge Park. They first couquered 6 Detroit ghettohood streets from Archdale to Grandmont south of W. Warren Ave.
The Clown sqauds have Tireman St. area near Cody High School. Both new cliques are in a war and shootings will heard in the Warrendale area. A neighborhood watch MUST be organized of you all want these new cliques out of your area.
For some interesting reads, check out wxyz's website about the "latest" shooting. These residents are getting pissed and it appears they may take matters into their own hands. And the Clown Squad? WTF???
I wonder if our crappy newspapers are going to do any investigating reporting on this story? Who are these guys and why did they start shooting at a busy intersection? Where did they get the guns? Were they raised by single parents? Are they in gangs? What do their parents know about their behavior? Is this caused by gangster rap or racist amerikka? Do they realize that they might get life in prison if caught?
Q1: Now, yes
Q2: Totally irresponsible punk ass thug wannabees
Q3: Guns can be purchased or stolen anywhere. There is no control.
Q4: Statistically, yes. Add: inept or uncaring to single.
Q5: Probably, but not necessarily. Depends on definition of "gang".
Q6: Not much, which is part of the problem.
Q6: Not caused, but definitely encouraged by "thug culture & no snitch".
Q7: Absolutely not. But rather than an embarrassment, it gives bragging rights.
I just don't get it. I was a teenager in the late 80's in H.P. and I never had the urge to get a gun [[let alone shoot anyone). This stuff is just really upsetting to me. It is almost like these young people have the mentality of 6 year old children. They have no sense of responsibility or concern for themselves or anyone else.
I'll be surprised if they make as much as an effort as they did regarding our former idiot mayor's scandals.
My house isn't far from that area. There's not enough neighborhood watches in the area, and those that are there don't have any teeth.
These thugs are armed to the teeth while we have incompetent leadership and police with their hands tied. Where were the Transit Police? They should be on every bus, start promoting the recruitment of police officers.
I think that the city citizens that can afford it should get a gun and work on their fast draw. Get a CCW. Those that can't or won't, take some self-defense classes, be watchful of the areas you visit. That incident that occured with those students can occur to anyone of us, no matter where we are.
I'm not sure why people are so shocked, or are looking at this as a "Detroit" problem, as at least once a month in America some strutting little nobody opens fire into a crowd of strangers, and suddenly becomes a somebody.
Does anybody think that it's a bit too easy for thugs to obtain weapons and ammo? Does anybody think gun dealers and owners should pay into an insurance pool that would help the victims of reckless firearm users?
quote: "What about gun owners that use their guns to protect themselves from criminals?"
Good for them. I support self defense.
I was answering a question about irresponsible gun owners, like the punks that shot up the bus stop, and trying to make the point that we have lost control of the situation.
A few things:
- Re: Rob Bobb liking the "limelight": It's called leadership. If someone is using the "limelight" for their own aggrandizement, yes, that is objectionable. But for a leader to come out and provide information to the public...that is commendable!
- Why is this happening? Well, you sit down a child in a classroom to learn their A,B,Cs and you sit down a child in front of a television to learn how to shoot people they don't like.
- Is it time yet to call in the National Guard, or is only Iraq worthy of having her citizens be protected?
How much longer can we go without hiring more cops? Where is that invisible line? Kids are shooting kids in the middle of the day at a busy intersection. It seems like that would be it, but its not. Not yet.
No.
Why should I, or anyone else, be punished for someone else's criminal actions? Punish the criminal, leave me alone. The victims can certainly file a civil suit against the men who did this and anyone connected to it and get compensation that way. Collective punishment is not a solution.
Law enforcement and corrections are paid for via taxes that everyone pays. It's not like you're singling out a group of people to pay for it. But that's exactly what Barnes was suggesting, that gun owners should be singled out and forced to reach into their pockets and compensate the victims of criminals. That's not fair. So because I own a deer rifle, I should have to pay when some gangbanger in Detroit busts a cap in someone's ass? F*ck that.
What if it wasn't gun owners? Here's a hypothetical situation for you. What if every person in Detroit had to pay into an insurance fund called the "Suburban crime victims restitution fund?" Every time a Detroiter commits a crime in the suburbs, Detroiters will have to pay to compensate the victims. Sound fair? Or is it only fair when you aren't part of the group being singled out for collective punishment becuase of the misdeeds of a few?
I've been scanning this thread reading posts about needing more Police, blaming the Mayor, etc.
This type of thing is nothing new in Detroit. It's been happening for decades. In the late 60's, when we left Cerveny at the end of the day, it was common to see 7 or 8 four man TSS units parked along Puritan. Several more patrolled Hubbel down to Cooley.
Shootings, knifings and general fights were common at Cooley, Cody, Mumford and to a lesser extent Ford.
The problem is with the parents.
You're right. I lived on Strathmoor 2 blocks from Grand River and we got out in 1967. I had to go to Cadillac Middle School and it was horrible. We left before the area was totally gone because I was jumped by a gang a block from home on my way back from school. There were 10 of them [[including males) and I was 13. Thankfully a lady saw what was going on and she didn't just run and hide. Luckily there hadn't been too much damage done to me. I knew the main players...and when prosecuted they got a slap on the wrist. I didn't know it till years later, but the hits on the head caused me to have spinal cord compression which has caused a lot of trouble over the years. I have 3 fusions with plating in my neck, but at least I wasn't shot to death. So, please don't tell me violence in Detroit is anything new-all this happened 42 years ago. Lord, that just made me feel old, lol. The only thing that's changed is there are guns now...the problem is the violent fools that are never held accountable for their actions or their childrens actions.
Funny thing is that the one cop who actually did something about it and got some results [[John Nichols) was raked over the coals for it. What did the city end up with? William Hart.
I just happened to notice the Cody Academy last weekend while driving down Southfield, a day or two before the shooting happened ironically. It's right on the east side of the Southfield service drive - I think it's just north of Warren if I remember right. It may be associated with the high school, but it's not on the Cody 'campus'.
Where are all the fathers?
so Robert Bobb runs the City now?
No Chief of Police,
No Mayor.
No President of the City Council.
No School Board Superintendent.
Just the emergency financial manager of the Detroit City Schools.
Damn. Talk about a leadership vacuum.
7 school children shot in a single incident demands SOME response from the leading elected officials. Not the DPS emergency financial manager. Whats next, the assistant DOT shift supervisor will offer free bus rides to the injured students?
Agreed this would appear to be unfair. Insured automobile owners [[in Detroit) are singled out and forced to reach into their pockets and compensate the victims of automobile theft through higher premiums.
Unfairly, and due in part to stratification, every time a Detroit resident commits a crime in the suburbs [[or in Detroit for that matter), virtually all Detroit residents do pay in various ways.
Can you say tax avoidance?
Dude, you need to pull your head out and get a breath of fresh air before the brain dies completely..
Your first example [[insurance) is based on the reality of insuring a vehicle in a high-risk area. Insurance is a gamble on the ins companies part..if the odds they will have to pay off a claim are stacked against them, of course the cost to buy into the game will increase at that table..the house ain't in business to LOSE money, ya know?.
[[Before you ask, I live in the city and currently own/insure five vehicles here.)
Second example.."various ways?" WTF does that even mean? Is this one of those intangible Monica Conyers "your face doesn't look like my face, ergo you must be one of those scary Detroit criminal" things?
What you are proposing is a straight-up tax upon law-abiding citizens based on the criminal acts of others.
It's ridiculous, it's BS, and it makes me damned glad the state has no idea what's [[legally) stored in my gun safe..
Parents who don't raise their off-spring properly are definitely a problem. I mentioned this above, but it bares repeating: as far as I'm concerned, the parents of the 3 individuals involved deserve to have jail cell right next door to their sons.
But first, we need to catch them.
And then requires us to have a functioning police department, which is unfortunately missing in Detroit.
The fact of the matter is that the police exist to protect the rest of society from the result of crappy parenting.
I have noticed that several of our gun hugging friends like to compare firearms with airplanes, so I too will compare firearms and airplanes.
When airplanes are involved in the death of people, families recieve compensation from the airlines. So when firearms are involved in the death of people, why would victims not recieve compensation from the firearms industry?
When religious fanatics used airplanes to kill several thousand people a few years back, there were significant increases in the insurance costs associated with aviation, and on top of that, there was a dramatic increase in the scrutiny of people licensed to fly airplanes and a dramatic increase in the screening of passengers.
Nobody screamed "You're not going to take away my airplane tickets!"
Charleton Heston did not denounce the obligitory removal of shoes, or the increased costs to airlines.
There was no outcry from the NRA about anybody's rights being compromised; perhaps in a rare moment of lucidity, they recognized that adjustments had to be made to increase public safety.[[Or perhaps they simply are an organization that pretends to be interested individual rights, but really is interested in the profit margins of arms manufacturers).
Yet here we have a situation that repeats itself weekly. Automatic or semi automatic handguns are easily obtained by criminals who use them to hurt maim or kill a large number of people, and any suggestion that it is too easy for thugs to obtain such weapons, or that an industry that mass produces such weapons needs to pay more taxes and insurance is met with hysterical shrieking.
Products that generally are harmful to human beings always come with higher taxes and insurance costs.
But not guns and ammo.
Special rights, anyone?
Apples & oranges. Again.
How do you manage to make it through life, with all these horrible companies & people that you don't even know bearing the full responsibility for your personal safety?
Airlines pay off because THEIR actions [[or lack of action) is directly responsible for their passenger's safety. The fact that some asshole uses a gun to shoot you is in no way the fault of ANYONE but the asshole who pulls the trigger.
The gun isn't evil.
The gun manufacturer isn't evil. [[even if it does manage to make profits, something which anti-gunners find abhorrent for some reason.)
Other gun owners who have nothing to do with the event are not evil.
One finger, one trigger, one choice..
One person bears the responsibility for their own action.
When someone punches you in the nose, is your first reaction to blame God [[or perhaps Darwin & the apes) for creating the human fist?
I havn't been watching the news the last couple of days or read anything yet as far as I know, But what was the real motive behind this?. Big fights and rat packing happen everywhere,But this case firearms were involved. While it is very easy to blame firearms for things like this. I go back to what I what a former co-worker told me when I used to yell at my machines at my printing job." You are the animator of an inanimate object". That took me awhile to get, But I understand now what he ment.
People will always think things will be better if something is removed from society.Be it firearms, alcohol, tobacco, autos, and to extremes as whole races of people whom they don't like.
I happend to be home sick that day and the whole incident did not help the matter.But I hate to say it things like this will go on until something is done with the whole of society.
Please post a link to any statements I made concerning evil. In your outburst of emotion, you seem to be simply making things up. [[It's both funny and sad how emotional gun huggers get about weapons and ammo).
Nobody has punched me in the nose for decades, because actually, I am responsible enough to stay an arm's length or more from swaggering thugs.
Speaking of swaggering thugs, why should such people have easy access to semiautomatic weapons? Any thoughts on the fact that angry religous extremists are no longer admitted to pilot training programs?
If it's apples and oranges, why do gun huggers post links to articles about airplane issues on the "Berserk Gunman of the Month" threads? I'm just trying to use a bit of your logic here!
Those kids are growing up in a pressure cooker. More cops [[who is going to monitor the cops) and harsh punitive laws arent going to alleviate the crime problem, liveable and fair wages along with easily accesible and affordable health care are what we should be passionately striving toward.
LOL, yeah, "fair wages" and better medical care are the issue. Just raise the wages at Wal Mart and include dental with the Medicaid and everything will be fine in the hood.
It wouldn't be the fact that there is an entire class of people that is entirely non-functional and guided by a culture of reflexive oppositional nihilism.
Um, because it's against the law?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9762564/
Congress passed a law three years ago that shields gun manufactures from lawsuits as a result of criminal use of firearms. I know, it sucks living in a representative democracy. Feel free to petition your representative in Congress to introduce legislation to overturn this law.
Not special rights, BILL of Rights. The Supreme Court of the United States, just one year ago, unequivocally stated that the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights grants an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to own firearms. Would you like me to provide a link to the decision so you can brush up on your Constitutional rights?
You do not have a constitutional right to air travel, so your comparison is junk. Owning a gun is a constitutionally-protected right. That's not my opinion, that is the opinion of SCOTUS and thus the law of the land. Please respect it. And I am not a conservative or a Republican. I am liberal. I voted for Obama. I support his health care plan. I support Cap and Trade. I support ending the war in Iraq and closing Guantanamo. I am opposed to waterboarding. I am pro-gay marriage. I am liberal in every sense of the word. I support individual rights, even ones I DON'T AGREE WITH. That is where you and I differ. Much like Right Wing conservatives, you support taking away rights that you personally find distasteful.
As much as you want to ban guns or tax them into oblivion, you can't just line-item veto the Bill of Rights. You can't. If you want to restrict gun ownership or infringe on the ability of lawful citizens to own a gun, then amend the Constituion via the proper means [[2/3rds vote in Congress, ratification by 3/4th of state legislatures). To willfully ignore the Constitution and restrict a freedom to satisfy your own personal prefernces stinks of fascism. And don't say you're doing it to make people safer, because there is no evidence that it will.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the threads you're speaking of..but your comparison to airline crashes/insurance/lawsuits is "apples and oranges" because of one very simple thing.
When a plane crashes, it's due to a failure of either the equipment [[SUE THE MANUFACTURER!) or the people using it [[SUE THE AIRLINE!).
When a murderer shoots someone, there IS no failure..the equipment did what it was designed to do [[place a projectile in a given target at the design velocity), and the shooter did what HE intended to do.
The gun manufacturer isn't responsible for the intent of the shooter, only that their product fulfills its design claims..the blame is the shooter's alone.
If I were to beat you with my baseball bat, would you blame Louisville Slugger? Or other people who own bats? How 'bout I intentionally hit you with my car..will you sue Dodge for MY actions?
"If I were to beat you with my baseball bat, would you blame Louisville Slugger? Or other people who own bats? How 'bout I intentionally hit you with my car..will you sue Dodge for MY actions? "
Thanks for mentioning cars; Because cars, when misused, are capapble of causing injury or death, you may have noticed that besides being required to pay into an insurance pool, car owners are also bound by certain regulations; If that wasn't enough, besides the requirements that you take a test and hold an insurance policy, you are not allowed to drive a formula 1 race car on 1-96. This law is in place despite the fact that you may be a "trained car owner". A reasonable person would argue that you don't need a formula 1 race car to get to work; an extremist would denounce this an act of "car grabbing" and would launch a tirade about the violation of your "rights", and how no limits should be place upon the type of car one is able to drive on 1-96.
Perhaps you have cursed the number of irresponsible car owners whose actions [[speeding, reckless driving, talking on cell phones while driving, DUI, racing, etc) cause your insurance to cost more. Have you written your lawmakers to denounce this horrible injustice? Is there a national organization that denounces the unjust requirement that responsible car owners help cover the costs of less responsible car owners?
Are some people, given their level of irrsponsiblity or the fact that they are insane, actually denied the rights to operate an automobile?
Finally, to address the "apples and oranges" argument, there are almost daily incidents of stray bullets fired by irresonsible gun owners killing people.Try googleing "stray bullet kills" and see how many results you get.
In my old neighborhood, for example there was, a few short years ago, a rash of cases of stray bullets fired by irresponsible gun owners flying through walls and windows and killing people's children, and while I certainly did not excuse the behavior of the "irresponsible gun owners" [[who were surely "responsible gun owners" until they weren't) I couldn't help wonder why no insurance funds were available to the victims, and why the dealer who sells guns to criminals was not also held responsible.
Do you have any examples of Louisville Sluggers tossed by careless baseball players flying through windows and killing people? Or "stray fists" thrown by carelss fist owners flying through windows and killing people's children? How about "stray knives flying through windows and killing people
No?
Well then perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges. There are certainly cases of stray automobiles killing people, but that's why car owners are required to purchase insurance. So why should gun owners be exempt from paying into an insurance pool again? Can you say "Special Rights"?
You do not have a constitutionally-protected right to drive a car. You DO have a constitutionally-protected right to own a gun. So says the Supreme Court. Why are you having so much trouble understanding that?
Name me ONE other constitutional right that I need to take out "insurance" on in order to exercise. Just one.
Everything you are asking for is blatantly unconstitutional. You sound like a Republican. "Give up these rights and we will guarantee increased safety and security." It's the same fascist rhetoric, you just want to take away a different right. You are no better than Dick Cheney, you both want to sacrifice freedom on the altar of "security."
Shriek! Shriek! A gun hugger brings up planes, I compare regulations regarding planes vs guns. "NO NO,Shriek Shriek!" says another gunhugger! Apples and Oranges! A gunhugger compares cars and guns, and I compare the regulations of automobiles vs. cars. "Shriek Shriek! Cars and guns- apples and oranges" screams another gun hugger! Maybe you all should come up with a united argument on this! So let me get this straight- guns are like airplanes-no they are not.
guns are like cars- no they are not. Guns are just like fists and baseball bats-yeah, right.
Your right to OWNERSHIP is not being challenged. Your level of responsiblity-and the level of responsiblity of firearms dealers is. Sooner or later, that is going to change.
The only one doing any shrieking here is you, Barnes..once again, you've gotten lost in the hyperbole. Try responding to any of the points made.
hopefully the perpetrators will be confirmed/found and put on trial..
All this talk of reasons why this happens...and no one sees the fact that when your life has no value, you see no value in anyone else's life. Generally those who commit these types of crimes are thugs who see no future for themselves other than being a thug. They know that the lifespan of a thug is short, even though they may think it won't happen to them.
The "doomsdayers" of the world go on and on about how either:
1. The economy is going to collapse in on itself and life as we know it will no longer exist;
2. The polar ice caps are melting and we are all going to be flooded off the face of the earth;
3. Global warming is going to kill all of us, shortly after we run out of fossil fuels;
4. The New Madrid fault line is going to cause a huge earthquake and sink us all into oblivion;
and last but not least...
Life is just like a video game...you can shoot people and they will either get up and walk away, or you will never suffer any consequences because you have the invincible code for the game and can't be touched.
Most of these kids have no "family" to lean on...their family is the gang. To be accepted in the family you have to perform certain tasks. Once you perform as you are supposed to, you are in the gang forever. Don't even think about trying to get out.
Sure there are the rare exceptions, but generally this is the way it is. This country has divided itself into only two groups...the haves and the have nots. The have nots have nothing to lose. The haves don't care what the have nots are doing, as long as they stay out of their neighborhood.
It makes me sad to see where this is all leading...I'm glad that I am 60 yrs old and won't live to see it deteriorate much further. I am afraid for my grandchildren and their children.
I don't know what the answer is...I see no clear cut path ahead. We can talk about solutions for the next 20 years...but until parents act like parents, kids listen to their parents and teachers and preachers and counselors; and until the economy is such that everyone can make a livable wage, this type of activity will keep on keepin' on.
Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.