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http://www.theatlantic.com/sponsored...ref=goldman-ob
Interesting article. Even if it is sponsored content by Goldman Sachs, which is interesting to me. I've not heard of GS sponsoring content such as this. Is that a bigger story than the article itself?
At any rate, enjoy...
GS only appears to be a 'sponsor' of the Atlantic article, from a quick glance.
I never get what these things are trying to accomplish. You have a City with a corrupt, backward thinking government, marginal police & fire protection, high crime rate, a lighting & power system grid on it's last legs, and a high percentage of high school drop-outs. What do these people realistically hope to change by living here for a year & shopping for veggies @ Eastern Mark-Up?Quote:
Originally Posted by 7miledog
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
There seems to be no shortage of people dreaming up grand plans for "saving Detroit." Unfortunately, nobody seems to realize that what we really need to save Detroit is a functional government that provides basic city services. We don't need grandiose visions for creating a futuristic utopia based on nothing but somebody's daydream. We need streetlights that work, 911 responders that show up in less than 2 hours, and public transit that runs efficiently and on time every day.
Fix the basics and most of the other stuff will fall into place.
Good point, Erikd. Many of the non-profits spend money on things like this when they could donate the money to the city to help out, or use the money to hire unemployed Detroiters to do some of the jobs that the city has no money to do. They could employ citizens to do clean-up jobs or act as security while children walk to school, or any number of jobs. These college-educated folks can find jobs of their own.
Great post !!Quote:
Originally Posted by erikd
When are people going to realize that we don't need a grand strategy to fix Detroit, we don't need folks nibbling around the edges trying to hit a home run or kicking the can down the road. Just do the fundamentals, just do the tried and true things that makes a city livable and everything else will take care of itself.
Actually. I like big grandiose ideas. You start off implementing big grandiose ideas by working in parallel with taking care of the fundamentals. I feel we have to think big here. The city's image and condition is so bad that being just functioning is not good enough.
I agree. With the avalanche of problems this city faces it needs to be able to chew bubblegum and walk at the same time while patting its head with one hand and rubbing its stomach with the other. If we can't do 5 - 10 things at one time we might as well forget about it. That's because we have at least 5 - 10 things that need to be done NOW before we can even get to the other 50 or 60 things that can be done down the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick1
"Actually. I like big grandiose ideas. You start off implementing big grandiose ideas by working in parallel with taking care of the fundamentals."
Let me know when the paralleling starts, will you? So far grandiose outweighs fundamentals 10-1. High-end groceries, upscale coffee shops, 150 mil plans for a 3 mile choo-choo, meanwhile kids getting off of school buses get robbed and shot, others die waiting for EMS to arrive, and no streetlights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikd
I think a city the size of Detroit needs to be vigilant about preserving its assets in time, focus on future industrial and other developments. But it also has to dream big along with the ordinary task of fighting crime and blight. Big cities need to provide more than a 7/11 vending machine, and a cop on the beat.
You can't just fix the basic stuff anymore and hope for something to come out of it. You need to also provide a sense of purpose and excitement. That is part of the american spirit, otherwise you cannot raise expectations and investment.
One of the traits that distinguished the US from other nations for two hundred years was the willingness, and the ability to think big to the point of gross caricature sometimes. It doesnt matter if a new shopping mall hits downtown Detroit. If it closes in a year it wnt be the end of the world. But it certainly hurts the psyche of those who would want the city to enjoy the glory of yesteryear to see that happen. So this means that the people are intimidated by the prospect of new developments as much as the lack of. The fear of failure has crept into the mind of Detroit where once pondered a "sky is the limit" mentality. A fine balance of self-preservation and progressive thought would make a world of difference, so dont knock on those who come with big ideas. Just get involved in the process.
That takes money - where is that going to come from? The middle class tax base left a couple of decades ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by firstandten
'Save the city' sticks in my craw. Sounds very Texan baptist comes to the rust belt to establish an 'art epicentre in slum community gospel coffee shop'. But that said I like the idea of smart people moving to Detroit who can contribute positive energy and good ideas to the good stuff that's already here, especially people who pay taxes and can help establish/ maintain a middle class tax base. Detroit has been a national leader in innovation because of its smart immigrants. It can be that again - these people might be a small part of that. Welcome them and use what they have to offer.
I don't have anything against grandiose ideas, you use those ideas to build upon the things you are already doing successfully. To use a basketball example its like the kids who grabs a ball and starts shooting three pointers and they haven't learn to shoot a lay-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
"I don't have anything against grandiose ideas, you use those ideas to build upon the things you are already doing successfully."
Exactly. It's like having a birthday cake that's all icing. I'm happy that there are signs that young people have discovered the "Big City" and are moving in, but Detroit needs sustainability. I'm going to repeat myself here, until you have in place a government that isn't concerned with self-serving interests, you have icing. And the likelyhood of regime change is small because you're out voted. Personally, I'm getting tired of pouring money into the sinking ship, it's time to man the lifeboats. And I don't need a $200 Pataginia jacket and a $15 watermelon to do that.
So let's start outnumbering the slugs. If the productive people run off, all we will have left are the unproductive people. We expect them to magically become productive because all the productive people have left. So far that hasn't happened, and newsflash, it never will. Again I say this, Detroit will never rise from the ashes at this point unless we learn how to do 5 - 10 things at the same time. This isn't New York or Chicago where we have a single issue to fix, we have an ungodly slew of issues that all need to be fixed NOW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
someone always seems to think they know what Detroit needs. Heres my .2
Large amounts of low/no skill jobs for its mostly unskilled workforce. Its nice that people with some skills and training are moving downtown and all that but there are still hundreds of thousands of Detroit residents who are harder to place in a job. People who draw resources and contribute next to nothing. That and gated communities. Make Brush Park exclusive. Same with Indian Village and Boston Edison. Big ass fences with extra streets added for building and growth
There are not going to be high paying unskilled jobs in Detroit ever again. Those people have to become skilled at something. And someone has to figure out how to get them to that point. People with skills and training who come to know and love Detroit will build businesses here and impact the way city government operates. Other industrial cities outside of the US have gone through this transition already - Manchester, Glasgow etc with some good success. And I think city government is going to change pretty substantially with 2013 election by districts. That's a huge shift - will take a while to feel the results but could be a great thing for supporting good governance.
You missed one step. Before those people become skilled at something they [[and their leaders) need to realize those jobs aren't coming back. Once you the realize that, it will be easier for them to accept the help from outsiders whom they distrust to help get them to skilled employment.Quote:
Originally Posted by southofbloor
I understand the totally valid and justifiable vitriol against the racist politics of the suburbs. But just as not all of us represent the attributes they hate, not all of them are racist whiteys trying to oppress, either.
What Detroiters have still failed to embrace is that they need outsiders more than they need us.
That understanding will become much more concrete once we can get everyone to surrender this fallacy that high paying unskilled jobs will magically return.
I agree with everything you said but this. If we keep the pissing contest up about who needs who more then we never make progress. How about this, both the city and suburbs need each other. Let's stop keeping score and start working together.Quote:
Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
What the COD REALLY needs is competent leadership capable of making the right decisions. Until you have that in place, all this is just pie in the sky. The most honest thing Obama said was during a Chrysler visit that the auto industry, as we knew it, WASN'T coming back. The City fathers AND the populace, need to get a grip and start adjusting.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
You have to show the people you're disenfranchising to create this "new Detroit" that they will somehow benefit from this in the long run instead of simply getting steamrolled over by those with special interests. That's one thing that hasn't been done yet.
It's not as esy as just "getting a grip" or "forgetting the past" or "dealing with it." While suburbanites are able to come down and watch a Tigers/Red Wings/Lions game then drive back out to their safe McMansions and while yuppies consider downtown their college/post-graduate playground, what exactly are the 600,000 or so Detroiters getting out of all of this? Damnation?
Otherwise, you're just encouraging them more and more to block any type of change, and if that fails, move to a city/state where their voice is heard [[and quite frankly the last thing Detroit and Michigan needs to lose is more people). The Detroiters outside of downtown/midtown are not lab rats that are simply to be used for experimentation. They're humans as well, many of which also pay taxes and deserve some type of hope for a better futurw
I agree. We need each other and I'm tired of the pissing contest. There is no one without the other. If the suburbs think they can thrive without a core they're nuts. If Detroit thinks it can thrive in a bubble..... well we see how that's working out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
And this basically sums up the issue with most Detroiters. If you make sure the current residents are part of the progress and assure that they won't be kicked to the side you've eliminated at least 50% of the issues the residents here have.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
The suburbs have been thriving/flourishing for decades without any need for the city. I know many who have not set foot in the city for as long as 25-30 years and who have all their needs met. Look at Ye Old Butcher Shoppe, everyone went overboard about ONE specialty market opening up when we should be asking why there are not the 30-40 YOBS that should already be here. I have not purchased clothing, hardware, electronics, and other basic needs in the city in over 25 years, and until last week I had not purchased any non eastern market groceries in the city in over 30 years. What Detroit needs to learn is the burbs have ABSOLUTELY no need for the city!Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick1
I disagree, in terms of overall benefit [[I think the suburbs, overall, would probably be stronger with a stronger central city), but you're right that the suburbs don't "need" Detroit anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Some suburbs could possibly be hurt by a Detroit rennaisance. I would speculate that some of the ridiculous prices I see for "urban" living in Birmingham are caused by lack of options in the region. Most folks with money would never consider Detroit, so the people wanting a "city" experience come to a few blocks in the suburbs, and tear everything down for million dollar city homes.
There are tiny city lots [[no house) as narrow as a lot in SW Detroit that go for 500k not too far from me. The surrounding area isn't really that urban or cosmopolitan, but I think the prices are so high because there are no truly high-end Detroit neighborhoods.
I guess some people could speculate that some suburban politicans/jurisdictions benefit from urban decay. Overall, though, it hurts the region.
You are correct some areas such as Birmingham could take a hit, but right now B'ham has no problems thriving and has no need for Detroit. Although B'ham does have all the necessities that once were found in every neighborhood in Detroit. Unfortunately except for a few pockets most are no longer found in the city today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
This is true depending on your point of view. If Metro Detroit wants to be considered world class and recognized nationally like it once was it needs Detroit. If it wants to be just your average functional "flyover state" metro area then it's doing great right now and nothing needs to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
You stated that the suburbs could not THRIVE without Detroit. I just pointed out that they were beyond thriving without the core city. We all know the burbs and the city need to work together but the City of Detroit has to come to the realization that their s**t does stink now. I doubt we will ever become a world class city but we do have the means to be a regional powerhouse [[something the burbs could do all on their own). You need to distinguish between burbs thriving on their own and the region working together.Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick1
Actually I agree with you now that you've put it this way. I mean Michigan isn't losing population and college grads aren't flocking out of this state to other states with functional cities. I wonder how sustainable some people really think this model is. Good luck with the city-less suburbs residing within a dying state that the youth don't want to stay in.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
LET'S KEEP UP THE PISSING CONTEST UNTIL THERE IS NOTHING LEFT. That'll show 'em!
Detroit had always been a "working man's town". It was designed that way. It could still be a working person's town with young people of different occupations instead of just factory skills. I agree that the younger generation could bring back Detroit with young ideas on how to bring the city back. It is not General Motors alone that had brought the downtown/midtown area on the incline; it is the smaller companies such as Bedrock, Galixie Solutions, and other companies that is bringing downtown Detroit to an upswing. These companies employ many young people who would bring young ideas to the city. Young people had brought the concept restarting walkable retail districts such as The Village on Agnes, pop up stores such as MooseJaw and the Detroit Shop in downtown Detroit and the renovation of neighborhoods in Detroit such as Corktown, Woodbridge, West Village, Lafayette Park, and Midtown. Gilbert, Karmanos, and Penske had brought young ideas to the city and are building up downtown Detroit. They are the ones as well as TRU who had tried developing a simple light rail system that would take commuters from downtown to the new center area. The old idea had decided to take over the light rail project and extend it to 8 mile road which will need the assistance of federal money. The old concept had stalled the idea of any light rail being developed in detroit. The late Tony Goldman had said that the young people will bring this city back. One building at a time; one block at a time. Old ideas always try to do things of a grander scales with smaller funding and narrower shortsighted views.
People leaving is a function of jobs! That is a statewide problem not just a problem of one messed up city!Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
I just stated the burbs were self sufficient and did not need the city[[if you do not like that its not my problem). Also the brain drain could slowed/reversed without Detroit in the equation. What the core city has to realize it has been irrelevant for a long time!
I do not know how old you are for me its the 3rd "REBIRTH" of Detroit I have lived through and each time we are left with less than we had before. I am not holding my breath that this time will work. I am hopeful though as I see the region moving towards the diverse economy we had here before the auto industry took over.
I will agree with you about the rebirth of Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
There have been so many so-called rebirths that I'm actually losing count [[one could even argue Gilbert is the new Ilitch). We tend to take one step forward and two steps back.
"Thrive" is relative.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
I wouldn't call stagnant growth for the last 40 years, and rapid shrinkage relative to the rest of the country "thriving."
And it has been proven time and time again that companies and people are far more likely to invest in a region in a strong urban core than not.
Now the suburbs may continue to function just fine without Detroit [[because I admit, part of Detroit's problem is social and cultural), but don't think "SE Michigan" will be the greatest thing since sliced bread either.
Remember if this ship sinks what do you think is going to happen to the rest of the region ???????, if this ship sinks, you are just going to be floating around in a life boat waiting for someone to come save you ! Why not repair the boat so we all can float into port ?
What happens in Detroit effects all of METRO Detroit , It's a image problem, the ENTIRE region has to work to over come .
Just because some feel "safe" in their comfy suburb , look around , it's not that much different , i've seen all the for lease signs in the burbs too. and several city are in trouble money wise also , i/e Allen Park , Ecorse , even Westland , Warren.
Granted Detroit problems are HUGE ! but don't be fooled what happens in the city will and can spill over to entire region, "those" people just move out to those "safe" suburbs , i'e Farmington Hills , Southfield, Redford , ect
Business leaders are figuring out a way around the "city clowcil ".
However the people left in the city have to deal with these so called leaders .
Until we can replace the city council completely with a functioning city government businesses will have to lead the way .
SOS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
I agree SE Michigan is pretty much a joke without Detroit functioning at a reasonable level.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
I do think the burbs have been thriving for the last 40 years. The residents have all their needs met. What they have not been doing is Flourishing!
Okay, well if everything is just fine as it is, then let's just leave it this way. We'll see how long Michigan [[the only state to lose population in the last census) does long term as its population ages and its youth leave in droves. Let's let Detroit decay away as it is worthless and of use to no one. Your work here is done, you solved the problem and now we can move on to more important issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
I love how people overlook the fact that if Detroit completely collapses it takes the region with it. A bankruptcy in Detroit would lower the credit rating of surrounding communities. Let's ignore, Detroit has been completely irrelevant since the 60s and has long been a lost cause.
Huh? And to flourish the burbs need a functional Detroit. Notice I used the word "need" in the last sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
It's sad that even in the depressing state that Southeast Michigan is in right now we still have factions chest thumping and bragging about how the other side is of no consequence to them. Someday we'll tear down all these walls and fiefdoms and function like a region. Hopefully that's before the rest of the nation completely laps us in every category. Hopefully people wake up before Michigan continues to be the only state to bleed population.
Its not DYes without someone flying off the handle! Nowhere did I state the burbs were perfect! I was nitpicking on one comment that stated the burbs were nuts if they thought they could thrive without Detroit. They can and have been for decades!Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
But I do not understand why you restated my posts and added information that we already are well aware of!!
And would that have been the case had the American Auto industry not gone into a tailspin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
Yes the fact that SeM is sprawly and Detroit proper is a trainwreck makes the area less attractive on a whole, however pining all of the losses on it being sprawly and sucky isn't telling the whole story.
If the domestic auto industry had not entered a death spiral, there wouldnt have been the net loss of population. those that moved away to find jobs would have found them right here. it would have been status quo... which is pretty much the definition of sustainable.
if it was all about new urbanism, there wouldn't be massive migration to places like Texas or Florida.
Keep in mind that Metro Detroit was one of the faster growing Rust Belt metros in the 90's. The job growth was even faster than the population growth, and Metro Detroit had low unemployment throughout the 90's. Yet the region was just as screwed up then as now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement
Metro Detroit lost population in the second half of the 00's, but that's almost entirely due to the auto industry. I don't think it has much to do with Detroit city's ills, or the region's lack of cooperation, because these have been constants for decades, while the population and economy are depend on the ups and downs of the automobile industry.
Detroit would had been a much better city if Karmanos, Gilbert, Penske, and others had their say back in the 80s an 90s eventhough Gilbert was just getting started thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Back then you had Taubman, Illitch, Gatzoros, Pappas, and various other downtown saviors. Same story, different day.Quote:
Originally Posted by stasu1213
Definately a bigger bunch of crooks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Of the whole group the only one who has proven to be an asset is Penske. The jury is still out on Gilbert. I wish Penske could have been persuaded to take on more responsibility, but he knew his management style would have not worked with the current power structure!
As much as the Ilitch's are disliked for some of their activities, I would hardly call them crooks... Marion [[and by default Mike) would NEVER have passed the states Gaming Control Commission standards if there were ANY shady dealings in their past. As for the rest of them.... well...Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
Looks like you have never done work for the Ilitch family. They still owe me money from almost a decade ago. They are famous for not paying their vendors! I have chatted with dozens who have been stiffed or received payments years after the work was completed. Atonas if I get his name right refused to pay the builder of his home in Grosse Pointe, forcing the builder to sue him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
My landlord for my business was asked to bid on a job for them, I told him to get the money up front. He was not happy when he did not win the bid, but was relieved when he found out the winner of the bid was never paid and forced out of business.