Anyone have any insight on what the opposition is about? The only thing I can think of is that since Mudgie's is pretty much right in the middle of a very family friendly, residential area that some in the community would be concerned about drunk driving, loud patrons exiting the restaurant, more traffic, etc.
Any thoughts?
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...ims_for_l.html
There's almost always someone opposed to anything. The deeper question is why our liquor laws in Michigan can't encourage reasonable consumption, but mostly serve as barrier to people with new ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitgirl
Big surprise there [[not). Some of the neighbors were against the private club "Ten Critics" getting their license, and ran them out of Corktown after they invested almost 300k into a derelict property. Then CVS proposed a store at the corner of MLK and Grand River, with extra lighting and a cool facade to add some character. And after the corporate developers told the crowd that they would indeed be selling liquor like almost every other CVS does, some of the neighbors started a bitchfest and CVS never came back. Corner still empty, and still gotta drive past livernois to hit up a 24hr store.
The attitude frequently on display is, "This particular [[insert here) doesn't fit our neighborhood," so read what you will between those lines. I believe the real culprits behind running a few of these businesses out and/or fighting mudgie's license app are a few well connected individuals, not always representative of the majority of the Corktown community.
The community politics at work in this part of Detroit can be heavy. Everybody seems to have their "vision" for Corktown, and some of those visions land on opposite ends of the desired development spectrum.
Big big difference between Mudgie's and what was going to happen at Ten Critics.
I managed to dig up a little more on this.
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...y-backyard.php
I agree, there are a few significant differences, and there was a lot more opposition to ten critics than I'm sure there is to mudgies serving some drinks with dinner. I'm just giving some backround to what appears to be a pattern of opposition to certain types of developments, and to the nature of one of the many perceptions that is held in the Corktown sphere, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by rutlev
Isn't there a school and a playground so close that you could throw a piece of corned beef from Mudgies and hit them both.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere
If that is the case, and that is the cause of concern I would say it is a valid one.
Tampa and Orlando have neighborhood bars in converted historic bungalows,mostly just allowed to serve beer and wine, they are nice ,the
crowd is mostly younger yuppies and not like a club sene at all ,just casual chic kinda thing , lots of opposition when they were allowed but caters to a whole different group and they blend in nicely now .
A lot of cities have a 1000 ft rule when it comes to churches and schools and bars.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
Curious, that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Are drunks only dangerous for the first 1000 feet?!
Need to give the vicar and principal some exercise?
Or is this proof that Church Ladies are near-sighted? Put things a wee bit further from them, and they stop their complainin'.
I'd say we need to amend that rule and insure everyone can get a decent brew or glass of vino within one foot of their favorite sandwich!
Cheers
I was sitting in Mudgies yesterday and overheard a conversation between the owner and pretty young lady. They were reading a letter together that was written by the Father of the Catholic Church nearby opposing something
that mudgies was doing. Now I know what.
Seems to me if they only want to serve beer and wine they should have at it. Mudgies doesn't strike me as a place that's going to get hog wild. Then again then again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
There is a park across the street. That Mudgie's has taken over the maintenance of... [link]
I don't blame the church, school and neighbors. They already have to put up with drunks peeing on their lawns twice a year during the Parade and St. Patrick's Day. The M-Live article says "mixed drinks on special occasions." That means it's going to be a full-fledged bar.
Deli's are typically known for their out-of-control nightlife.
I'm sure in those cities, the police will come straight away if people are causing trouble. In Detroit, we just don't have the public safety support if a troublesome situation arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
I sympathize with the objections only because Mudgies is located in a neighborhood. I love the place but I don't live next door. If a lot of people from the neighborhood--and over 50 strike me as a significant number--object to the liquor license, Mudgies should just drop this as far as I'm concerned.
As it was also pointed out, there is a playground across the street. As a parent [[and Corktown is very family friendly from what I can tell) I would certainly be very uncomfortable with that combo. Unfortunately, alcohol makes [[some) people very, very stupid.
An alternative, if they can swing it, is to open a second location on Michigan Avenue where, as far as I'm concerned they can serve all the alcohol they want.
Or perhaps they can just move to Royal Oak. Money and business move to where they are wanted. RO is trying to increase the number of liquor licenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitgirl
Mudgies is reportedly not trying to become a bar. But want to serve beer/wine with meals. There should be a way to allow beer/wine with dinner, but not hard liquor served by itself. Our liquor laws need updates. If they truly just want to serve beer/wine w/ meals there, this won't cause problems with the playground. [[I do understand the desire to not have drunks around children -- but I also want appropriate commerce in Corktown.)Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitgirl
In your OP you asked for thoughts on the matter no offense it looks as though you are looking for support in opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitgirl
It seems as though that they are not per-say a club and all clubs are not the same,the places I mentioned do not really need a police presence because of the clientele,they are more of lets have a glass of wine and socialize and not so much as lets go get plastered falling down drunk.Most of the patrons live in the neighborhoods and invite friends to have a drink.The wives leave the hubby with the children and have a night out with the girls close by or visa versa, Within walking distance.
So I guess as a neighborhood it is a line between having a business that serves a purpose verses a vacant building.
Have they actually talked to Mudgies and maybe meet them 1/2 way?It does seem as though on the surface there was already an existing license so that may be an issue.
As a neighborhood you will be able to find fault in any business setting up shop,the trick is to get the neighborhood revenue support and find a happy medium.Seems as though if they are maintain the city park across the street that should count as something towards goodwill as I would assume that the residents also use the park?
Is the requirement to have a mix of food and alcohol say 70% food must be sold to 30% alcohol which in turn makes it a food venue that serves alcohol with the meal,and not a club per say.No mixed drinks and no live entertainment with band members over one.
How are they going to address your security concerns? Did you ask them?
If the neighborhood establishes acceptable guidelines that they would feel comfortable with and work with the business owners to reach some kind of happy medium it becomes a lot better as a neighborhood verses say for instance Mudgies saying fine we can move elsewhere even maybe downtown,then where will Corktown be?
Sorry WM ,posted at the same time.but same bases.
I lived in Corktown when CVS came to a community meeting about that particular location - this was BEFORE they announced anything about alcohol. Residents were still denouncing them and ridiculing them. Some were being downright hostile and insulting. The group from CVS was very professional and clearly personally eager to share their proposals but got shut down pretty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere
Take into account as well that Norm's Liquor Express is right accross the street, and that the location they proposed technically wasn't even in Corktown.
I am tired as shit with this country's attitude towards alcohol. It harkens back to our fanatical Calvinist heritage followed by Methodist revivals. Virtually anywhere else in the West people drink wine and beer in controlled amounts throughout the day. Here you have tee-totallers screaming about the evils of having a beer with a sandwich and on the other hand raging idiots who can't hold their alcohol and/or control themselves. Frankly I'd like to be able to go have a beer with lunch but would probably get fired for it, idiotically. Have wine with dinner and get pulled over in one of the jack-boot suburbs? Your life is over. Any chance of being a succesful citizen is eliminated.
Corktown needs to get over itself, anyway. Someone had a beer someone near a playground? The youth of America is doomed.
The place is too small to have bands. The place closes at 9 most nights, so no club. Greg would just like to serve a couple of beers and some wine. People won't go there to get hammered, they are going for deli sandwiches and a brew. Geez...
Stromberg2
does anyone have a address/email address where we can write letters of support?
Photo of a recent protest by the residents outside of Mudgie's: Attachment 15485
How many deli's serve liquor? I've never been in one.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I doubt if they are going to the expenses of buying a license and paying extra liability insurance just to serve the odd beer here and there.
Wait. Are they implying that if you want to prevent them from kissing you, you have to take a drink? Why do they want to turn everyone into drunks? :confused: ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
In small business every penny counts,if adding beer and wine adds to the bottom line to make it successful and not necessary a club.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastland
My kids were partially raised next door to a full liquor bar,they had bathrooms so nobody was using the street and people hung out inside so you never even knew there was a bar there.
I have a friend that has a hand rolled cigar shop and they sell beer and wine as an added revenue source and also as a convenience to the customer,they come in and buy a cigar and have a beer while smoking it.The neighbors that live behind the building? They come over and have a beer and a cigar.
None taken. Initially I honestly didn't know what to make of this but the more I thought about it, I realized that I sympathize more with the opposition. I still think that given the nature of Detroit's lack of public safety, serving alcohol in a more or less residential area is just asking for trouble. Mudgie's can have the best of intentions, but it has absolutely no control over patrons who come in who can't handle their liquor and then start trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
But what I think doesn't at all matter.
I like Mudgie's. I will still patronize them even if they get their license. I personally have no problem with them if they do serve alcohol. But then again, I don't live there. It's the people who live in the community who will have to live with the consequences.
The article I linked to stated that:
The city received 6 letters of opposition and a petition signed by 42 near-by residents and property owners
It sounds like pretty strong opposition to me.
And finally, on another point, some people are acting as if Corktown will fall to a swift demise if Mudgie's closes shop. I love their food so I would hate to see them go, but Corktown is on the rise now. Another business will come along, and if they want to serve alcohol they will know to keep it on the Avenue.
[QUOTE=detroitgirl;338550]And finally, on another point, some people are acting as if Corktown will fall to a swift demise if Mudgie's closes shop. I love their food so I would hate to see them go, but Corktown is on the rise now. Another business will come along, and if they want to serve alcohol they will know to keep it on the Avenue.[/QUOTE
Well you know what they say ,three strikes you are out [[CVS The other bar and now Mudgie's) it does not really seem as though any business would suit the area.Which gives the area a reputation of being not business friendly and if one cannot see the ramifications of going that route in the city as a whole then it is all for naught anyways.Who needs the headache.
You are correct that losing one business does not matter to the neighborhood but it is kinda redundant to try and build an area and yet discourage the business aspect.They pay taxes and employ and have to buy product locally so they are contributing to the general economy.That is what the city needs now and not a screw you attitude my way or the highway.That solves nothing.
Maybe a topless bar that does not serve alcohol would be okay. Do not see how it could be stopped.But also there would seem to be a huge conflict allowing a liquor store but nobody else.
But one would think that a business that would wish to succeed would not endorse fighting as who would want to patronize a place like that.
Corktown received neighborhood improvement grants last year ,how were those funds spent ,just kinda wondering.
CTY what is your input?
The article you refer to was written in February and relates to the former Porter Street Station applying for a cabaret license. As the article also notes, that site was a rowdy after-hours spot that was raided and shut down. It's unfair to compare Mudgie's to that place.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitgirl
Furthermore, what if it is located across the street from a playground? Would seeing someone tipsy stumble out of Mudgie's corrupt some little kiddy's morals forever? They see a lot worse on TV. Drinking at lunch is rare these days. Most of the drinking will probably occur at dinner. Those delicate munchkins should be long gone from the park by then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
The Corktown Temperance Society? Has the Woodbridge Pub had a deleterious effect on that neighborhood?
Wasn't there a bar, directly next door to the right, when the building was Eph McNally's? 2005ish? I can't remember it's name--I remember it was house-like with a porch and patio--but it didn't last long. I liked it!
For some clarification, the guys who were applying for the cabaret license were not the guys operating the after hours. The place [[which was owned by then Wayne Co. Sheriff Warren Evans) got raided in 2005, and then sat empty for years. These guys leased the space through an investment co. out of Pontiac. They came to Corktown Residents Council meetings before they even set up shop in an attempt to get community buy-in [[in which a group of neighbors decided against before the guys even started talking), and gave out drink tickets to neighbors to get them in the doors to experience first hand what kind of business they were attempting to operate. I checked it out, and it was pretty harmless. As a matter of fact, i'll just come out and say that some of the complaints I heard against the place were straight up lies and bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtownguy
But, a legitimate problem was that the place's sound system was a bit much for the structure, which was old and would have needed another 6 figures plus to fix up properly and insulate. They weren't prepared to invest that kind of capital without owning the building. The property has a few houses and an apartment building within earshot, and the events they held ran pretty late. Can't blame folks for wanting to sleep at night.
The guys left the neighborhood, bitter and hurt over the experience. The building has sat empty for the last 2 years.
I just hope something like this isn't what happens to Mudgie's....
Hello,
Thank all of you for your concern. Whether supporting this idea or not. I feel we all share the same idea of keeping the community's best interest in mind and heart.
As for the church and school argument...Somehow it was fine for a casino to be located in stones throw from the church and school, but not my tiny establishment? This is not to say I am for or against the casinos. I am Just making the point. The first casino was closer to the church and about the same distance to the school as Mudgie's.
On a almost daily basis for four and a half years I and our staff have been asked these questions in some form.
Are or when are you guys going to serve beer and wine?
Can we bring in our own beer and wine?
When the opportunity presented itself, I jumped at it.
As stated in the Mlive article referenced on this thread, These are my plans for this license:
I will stock 4 Michigan craft brews and a meed
- These will be housed next to the Faygo.
I will also stock a white and red wine
- The white will be next to Wild Bill's Soda
- The red will be on a shelf next to the phone
I will have occasional cocktail specials such as:
- Bloody Marys with brunch.
- Margaritas, you know when.
- Irish coffee that one week.
- Spiced cider in the Fall
- Kahlua and coffee around the holidays
Due to our lack of space and my lack of desire, you will never come to Mudgie's and order any "cocktail". Even if I wanted to, we barely have room to set a pen down let alone stock a bar. I will not keep bar hours. I do not want nor will I ever be a bar on that corner.
I am looking to answer our guests' wants and heighten their experience, as well as increasing business potential.
In hind sight I regret not getting the community more involved from the beginning. I honestly never thought there would be any oppositions. I made a mistake. I did however speak with the principle of the school and Father Kohler at the Most Holy Trinity Church and asked for their support.
There is mention about the park from the opposition and others on this forum.
I have always maintained the park to some extent. A few months back I officially adopted the park from the city. Please let me address these concerns.
I fully maintain the park by:
Trimming trees
Emptying the trash and supplying the bags
Replacing nets on the court
Painting the fixtures [[ with the help of neiborhood children )
I pay a landscaping company to mow the grass 3 times a month
Every day before I enter my job I survey the park and wake anyone sleeping there [[ I never attempt to kick them out. I only ask that they wake). I also pick up any trash. If there is glass to sweep or something requires gloves. I return and this is when I re wake the sleeping. I have actually developed a working relationship with these people.
At the end of my day I do the same routine
A child from the school caught wind of what we are doing and proposed a childrens movie night in the park. I will be working with her and her mother. We hope to show our first in september.
Please do not take this as tooting my own horn I just want express that I would never allow or stand for any foul play there.
There was a bar behind the Deli, ten or so years ago. It was called Limericks for a minute and something else for a second. Limericks poor behavior is the reason for the opposition. Do not judge or punish me for someone elses actions.
I hope this rant answers some of your questions. Whether you wish to support this or not. I would love and welcome all your thoughts. Please feel free to contact me with your concerns Either by stopping by or calling the restaurant. We are pretty busy between 11-and 2pm I am more than happy to talk with before or after those times. You can also email me Greg.mudge@gmail.com
Thanks for taking a moment to read this,
Greg Mudge
P.S. I am confident that myself and the objector will be able to come to a reasonable agreement.
Greg, thanks for clarifying the issue for us. I don't understand why reasonable people would object to your plans. And, your dedication to the park is exemplary. Seems like the neighborhood should be giving you an award rather than getting in your way.
In the MLive story, you declined to single out the opposition, but can you at least tell us what feedback you got from the school principal and Father Kohler? I don't know the principal, but Father Kohler always struck me as a very reasonable person.
I've certainly been in a few. It's gets CRAZY when a guy wants a Bud Light with his pastrami at lunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastland
I agree it is nice to see somebody investing in the community verses in just a business,the city needs more of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtownguy
But on the other hand I can see to a point where the community may have a concern and that would be in the mixed drink specials.
Even though in this case it would seem as it would not be an issue it boils down to how the community wishes to define themselves and while they are doing this they are setting precedent, if they for instance say we think it is okay to sell beer and wine with your meal or a certain percentage and allow the hard liquor aspect in this case there is really nothing to stop for instance, somebody like me that does not live in the neighborhood from buying a building and opening up a full liquor bar as my argument could be that it was allowed so the precedent was set.
This sounds more like a neighborhood trying to find its way verses a personal thing it would be nice if a compromise could be met as in this case it would seem as though the neighborhood could lose an asset that is hard to replace.
I would be pleased to talk face to face and explain all of this in more detail. Although I appreciate this forum. I would rather not disclose every detail here. I hope you understand. As stated above, please feel free to stop by and chat. I am going to try to post pone the hearing and organize a community gathering. I will keep you posted, no pun intended. :)
Greg Mudge
Greg, thanks for addressing the forum with your point of view and activities. I think you deserve and hope you get your permission.
The priest at Trinity Church is opposed to beer and wine being served at Mudgies? Really? Don't they serve up free wine at every Mass? Don't they brag that the stained glass window behind the alter was installed a little cattywompus by a couple of tipsy carpenters?
Serving bottles of beer or glasses of wine with sammies is a far cry from what was happening at the old Porter Street Station.
I think it sounds like a great idea. I had asked about the park and school because I think these may be viable concerns to some in the neighborhood.
I wanted to bring them up because the typical response is [[to this or anything else) that people in Detroit should just take whatever they can get with no regard for the fact that real people actually live there.
I also think that the argument that the Casino is in the same boat is different. It isn't about people drinking or any morality associated with it, it is about people drinking then getting in their cars and driving by a park without a fence that surrounds it. The casino traffic does not end up near the park.
If anything, I would think that a fundrasier to get a nice fence around the park would be a great way to ensure that the kids are safe. If anyone doesn’t know the area, check out the corner of Porter and Brooklyn on google maps. The park has direct access to the street which si dangerous but even more dangerous when there are people drinking and driving on that corner.
So, before people bite my head off: I support Mudgie’s getting a liquor license but I also empathize with people who may genuinely concerned about the safety of the kids in the park [[even if they are just Detroiters – yep, Detroiters are real people as well and a car hurts Detroit kids as much as kids in the suburbs).
PS – Adopting the park is a great thing, Mr. Mudgie. I applaud you for that and wish you continued success with or without a liquor license.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that's why each license goes through this process -- so you can distinguish the merits of a small place like Mudgie's getting a license versus your hypothetical full liquor bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
So that's the objection now? That the park doesn't have a fence rendering it unsafe? Actually it does have a fence running most of the Porter Street Side. The rest of Porter Street and Brooklyn have some trees, sturdy looking bushes and a light pole providing some cover. In addition, it's 50 feet from the street to the play area. The basketball court which does come to the sidewalk is completely fenced in. During the hours that kids are likely to be in the park, there are usually parked cars on the street providing one more barrier.
Wishing you the best Greg.
Greg runs one of the most efficient and chill places to get a great sandwitch in Detroit. The service and staff are always top notch, as well as their use of local produce and products.
The demographic that frequents Mudgie's, while diverse, is not the type of crowd that is going get all rambunctious, by a long stretch.
I'm not saying it is the objection but a consideration of what may be a concern to some.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtownguy
A couple things. It is not 50 feet from the intersection to the playground. All I am asking is that people actually consider what may be a concern to residents in the area. Hell, maybe this isn't their concern but people tend to be entirely too dismissive of things that may impact others based upon what they want.
Safety of loved ones [[even if it is a difference in perceived safety) is an important consideration.) Someone above mentioned that they should just move to Royal Oak is the residents fight this. I'm curious would RO advocate having a place serve liquor directly adjacent to a playground? Maybe they would but I'm sure there may be some residents that may be concerned. The difference is that their concerns would be seen as valid but if it happens in Detroit then people assume something more nebulous.
Now after saying all of that, I would be fine with it and support it but I'm not going to dismiss what may valid concerns of people in the community and just blame it on them being obstacles.
I also think the park is more open [[at least at the corner of the park) then you are stating. The courts are fenced in but then again kids playing on slides are more prone to run into the street to chase after something then kids playing hoops.
Just my opinion
For those that don't know the corner, attached is a picture of the playlot from outside Mudgie's front door [[Probably looks nice due to Greg's great work).
Now, I don't expect people to get raving drunk and in fights, etc. but the age of kids that play at the playground, mixed with a few beers at lunch may end up in a tragedy. Sorry, when it comes to safety of kids any accident can be prevented is good in my book. Like I said, a fence that closes off the open areas would be a great thing. The reality is the combination of little once not being aware of safety/traffic couped with someone having a few drinks at lunch could result in a tragedy.
Again, I support the liquor license but I also think there should be some consideration of the little ones playing at the playlot.Attachment 15503
When an establishment makes a request for a liquor license, notice goes out to residents within a 500 ft area. Corktown is much larger and so to say that Corktown needs to get over itself is kind of vague.
So make it one-way-valet-only. More you drink, further away they put your car. And you've got to walk to it. Away from the park, of course.
Jt1, I literally teared up a little at this. Very, very well said. I try to remind people that Detroiters deserve nice things too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
jt1, do I understand that it is your position that there is a danger of children being run over by drunken sandwich eaters? Or are you saying that well-fed drunken louts will overrun the park and assault the children?
I am not clear on the connection you are trying to make.
On a side point, shouldn't Sheila Murphy Cockerel pony up some flower money to make the Murphy Playlot pretty? After all it is named after her parents.
It is great to hear your perspective on this Mr.Mudge. I think you have good intentions. The crux of it will be maintaining a controlled environment. If you can find a way to do that and let the residents know how you plan to do that, I'm sure a lot of people would feel better about the whole thing.
Presumably, Mudgie's profits will go up if you receive your license. Maybe some of that extra money can be redirected back into the community such as the fence idea that was proposed.
[QUOTE=gnome;338655]The priest at Trinity Church is opposed to beer and wine being served at Mudgies? Really? Don't they serve up free wine at every Mass? Don't they brag that the stained glass window behind the alter was installed a little cattywompus by a couple of tipsy carpenters?
I'll have to inquire of the good Father next time I see him holding pontifical court at the bar at Sinbad's...
About flowers. Sheila Cockerel is aware of my actions in the park. She has been willing to help. I have not yet needed her assistance. As for flowers. Most of the beds contain many bulbs, problem is I do not know where they are right now. I was going to till the beds but decided to wait until next season. As flowers come up we will photograph and map where everything is and plant around them. I have had someone out and they have proposed a great plan in the beds. Next year the corner should be in full bloom all season.
Greg:
Sounds like you have thought everything through!! Frankly, I wasn't very taken by your proposal, as I first heard about it, but now that you've explained it all, I am all for it. Good luck in bringing it to fruition! I have brought many visitors to our city to Mudgie's for lunch and all have greatly enjoyed. I look forward to future visits.
I used Google Earth to measure. Attachment 15538Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
I also did a Google Street View from Porter. You can see the fence in it. Attachment 15539
...and real people actually run businesses there.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
I live in Detroit and I know real people who live in Corktown. I discussed this with one of them last night. He's very supportive of Mudgie's.