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I've been going to the Packard for two years, and I've never seen it as busy as it is now. Although the ground is littered with shattered car windows, people still park around the plant, thinking their car is safe. Now people are getting beat up, guns are being pulled. Here's a story about it: http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2012/0...thugs-thieves/
As far as I'm concerned, if this is happening on private property [[which the city should force the owner to tear down and it just as wrong as anyone in this) then the city should require the slumlord owner to hire his own security.Quote:
Originally Posted by neavling
DPD resources should not be wasted on people that are victimized while trespassing. DPD should be responding to and spending time where it assists the law abidibing citizens of Detroit. Unless the people serving up the beat downs are suspected of other crimes I say leave it alone and help our the residents, not the trespassers.
From the article: "Earlier this month, Emily Johnson and her friends drove from Troy to the Packard Plant, curious to see the cavernous ruins that everyone has been talking about. After an hour-long tour, Johnson and her friends returned to their car.
“One of the windows was smashed in,” the 22-year-old said. “Everything we hid in the trunk was stolen. I won’t be going back there again.”
I'd rephrase the article as "Suburbanites upset that they are victimized while breaking the law in the city"
Here's what should be done:
- The city should announce that they will not be sending in resources to the Packard and will not investigate any crimes against anyone that take place in the Packard [[unless someone was taken there against their will)
- The city should force the owner to hire private security
- The city will consider ticketing anyone illegally entering or leaving the property with criminal tresspass and level a huge amount of community service as a fine [[I know, this contradicts the first point)
- Anyone who reports being a victim of a crime while illegally in the Packard will be fined and sentenced to community service cleaning up other blighted properties.
I’m entirely too fed up with the Emily Johnson’s of the region whining about being attacked while illegally in a very dangerous place. Fuck her.
Two wrongs make a right?Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Nope, but neither do three wrongs. She is knowingly breaking the law, she is victimized, then she [[and others like her) are taking precious time from DPD that could be used to better protect the law abiding citizens.
If DPD was sitting around bored I would say spend time on this but her actions [[and others like her) are adding a urden to an already understaffed, overloaded DPD. If the option is to have someone respond to a call to help a resident or to help her, I say help the resident everytime.
I understand your concern, but given the scenario you laid out there are so many more serious wrongs than those committed by this woman with which I think we're better off focusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
Agreed, kind of. If the wrongs are maintained only in that location then it needs to be written off. Now, more than likely the people committing these crimes are likely involved in other criminal activities so it would be a fair argument that getting them off the street is good for the residents however, I'd prefer my DPD response to focus on law abiding residents and visitors that are victimized while doing nothing wrong. Just a matter of how we want police to prioritize calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
If the Packard Plant was in Troy, would Ms Johnson feel the same freedom/ entitlement to go into it, smash crap, take ironic pictures, and leave?Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I'm not sure she felt the freedom or entitlement to do those things as it stands, but why are you asking me such an irrelevant question?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Maybe we can chalk this up to the internet and not Detroit, but it's amazing that people are being assaulted and we're only concerned with somebody entering a long abandoned building. It's like blaming sexual assault on the victim's choice of attire.
The difference is it is not a crime to dress a certain way. I don't think the comparison holds as both are vistims but one is engaged in a crime and the other isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
Where does it say she "smashed crap?" Or did you just assume she "smashed crap?"Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
You've got-sta know when you go into these abandoned areas you're being OBSERVED and judged as an easy 'mark' [[cameras aiming and fingers pointing as I've seen) for having your car broken into, stolen, camera taken from you or worse a direct crime up your person. I hope these where not two women? Very unwise...
No photos are worth that! I would not even drive thru there in the late evenings.
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Originally Posted by jt1
We'll have to disagree. I just hope you don't speed while driving home from work today because you'd deserve to die a slow death.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
when is someone in government going to play hardball with the owner.. city council gets in a tizzy over belle isle, et. al, but not a peep about the owners of these derelict hulks..
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...4/facepalm.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by jt1
Stop trespassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by neavling
It's a big abandoned building! You're there trespassing! How in the heck do you feel entitled to safety and adequate parking?! :rolleyes:
Hey Emily Johnson, I hear the Opera House has secure parking; go there & take some pictures instead!
[[Or maybe just suck it up & attribute your broken window to "Detroit Tax". I have a friend who's had his window broke 6 times, he doesn't whine about it to detroitcitymoonraker.com!) :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I find it odd that some folks are whining about the heinous misdeamenor crime of trespassing on a property that has been essentially abandoned for over half a century, but it's seemingly ok that someone gets their car broken into, robbed, etc.,...which I believe is a felony, and hell even "deserve" it in retribution for having the audacity to enter the city and park anywhere.
Where is that big fat chill pill?
I've wondered about this, as well. It seems to me that the city could easily justify seizure via Eminent Domain of the old Packard Plant, the Depot, and some of these other notorious derelict buildings. I mean, the Packard plant doesn't even have the windows that once said Motor City Industrial Park on them, as they've all been broken out [[I was through there last week). Is it a question of money, that they don't have the funds to follow the process through the courts? Lack of will? Some political agenda of which we're unaware? I mean, I'm all for saving cool old buildings if there's a way to do it, but I think at this point the city would be better off in terms of reputation and forward progress if they could tear even just Packard down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypestyles
Although, I wonder how big of a Catch-22 sites like Packard are? I mean, I'm sure that building's full of all sorts of interesting and nasty chemicals, asbestos, lead paint chips, and every other flavor of superfund brownfield site horror you could think of. The owners ain't gonna pay to clean it up, and the city ain't about to take on the liabilities for it let alone the fabulously-expensive cleanup. There's no money, so the sites sit vacant and derelict causing continued harm by their very presence, but there's no money to get rid of the harmful presence repeat ad nauseum...
As for these people, I feel like blaming them for their cars getting broken into is a case of blaming the victim. Their illegal entry into the plant does not justify their cars being broken into. That said, I don't think they have any business being surprised that it happened, either. If you park in a questionable area and show off all the hallmarks of not belonging there, then you have to prepare for the increased possibility your stuff's getting broken into.
If you play with fire, you are going to get burned.
So many people like Emily were raised in hermetically-sealed environments like Troy cul-de-sacs and told they were special for their entire lives and never experienced a damn thing about the real world outside the subdivision. It seems to breed a lack of understanding, a hubris, even, that one can do whatever one wants and everything will be okay, because, well, there are laws about these sorts of things, and gosh that sort of stuff happens to other [[mostly poor) people!
For the rest of us we've had our share of blows an run-ins earlier in life and learn to keep our noses clean and don't go around looking for trouble. These folks are learning the hard way, later in life. I do hope they walk away unharmed but a little wiser. Don't fuck around in the 'hood. It's not rocket science.
a whole lot embarrassment being showcased in this thread. Misdirected
Just a question. If I visit Detroit and photograph the Packard from a public street, should I at least receive the same entitlements to safety as residents since I will be spending my dollars in the city?
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Originally Posted by wolverine
You may be entitled to safety but you won't receive any just like a city resident. That is the point of most of the comments about staying away and not using up what little resources that are left in the city.
The issue is residents don't have an entitlement to public safety, why should people who are in town to knowingly break the law and tresspass?Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
I woudl expect that you deserve the same right to security as any law abiding resident or visitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
I said I'd be taking photos from a public street. According to other posters I'd likely receive the same level of protection as residents. I just want to be sure Detroiters are okay with visitors that come into town and Don't break any laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
What caused the use of resources, the person visiting the property, or the person who broke into the car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheels
The person visiting could come and go and not cost the city a penny.
The person who broke into the car is responsible for the use of the resources, after all, he did not have to break into the car.
When you have a car in Detroit, it would be stolen in 9 seconds, in a flash. In Detroit you can turn your head for 9 seconds and a theif will rob you from behind by sticking its knife or a gun into your thoat demanding your valuables. That's how it in the ghetto. BE SAFE and be cafeful when going to familiar areas.
Troy has a version of the Packard Plant, on a lesser scale. It's called Kresge, on Big Beaver and Coolidge. It's been empty for years, you couldn't get in there though, it's pretty well secured.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
We don't have law education in merica. Perhaps we should, incarceration rates are higher here than anywhere. Regardless, when buildings are wide open and there aren't any signs is it still trespassing?
A lot of you people make no sense, blame the victim, so I live in Shelby if I go to Detroit I deserve to be victimized, you people make no sense, that why the city is so fucked up,
How about that massive empty series of buildings at the border of Bloomfield and Pontiac?Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
Just yesterday I brought a film crew working for National Geographic to the Packard. I had some friends meet me there and paid them to stay with us as there is safety in numbers. It wasnt until one of them told me about a couple of recent robberies. If I would have known I would have brought more serious backup as the crew had some pretty serious equipment. We didnt go inside, they just did several outdoor shots. Everything went smooth and had no problems thank god. We did run into two other cars of photographers that day. Dont know if they had any problems.
I knew it would come to this. Ive always seen a lot of folks with pretty nice equipment, was only a matter of time before thugs would be preying on folks. Theres so many ways to get in and out of that place, its easy pickins for a theif.
You really have to give the people living on the east side credit,years of the city laying the neighborhood to waste and now wanting to make it all a forest.
And then you have this,how can anyone in that area have piece of mind not knowing who and from where people are coming from as they bring these crimes of opportunity down on them.It is one thing to go in stealthy pop some pics and disappear but lately it has gotten to the point of stupidity.
When you publicly go and do stupid things like pushing a truck off of building and post on the internet that you had to go home a get a sledge hammer to bust the wall out to get it over the next day it just shows the blatant disregard to those in the city, its fun at somebodies else expense .
I guess people are starting to realize either through the courts or urban experiences like this the city is fast becoming no longer the personal playground of many who wish to disrespect.
There are many business opening,historical tours,a wealth of architectural history ,check some of that out,enjoy what the city has to offer instead of being a potential burden on your host. It is really not that hard and much safer in a positive way.
See. After all this, the Packard Plant has finally become an amusement park. At the very least it is an attraction, and becoming a major one at that.
Sit two cop cars out in front and have the cops write tickets, that's the warning, and the admission. Generate revenue at the same time. You wanna go in, here's your ticket, now go away, and if we see you again, we'll give you another ticket.
It's a Detroit style win-win for everybody. Bring the whole family.
My god you're reading comprehension is horrible. If you live in Shelby and you go into Detroit to break the law you shouldn't whine while you are victimized in the process. Same goes for Detroiters.Quote:
Originally Posted by GUSHI
I'll summarize my thoughts so it gets through to you.
1. If you are victimized in the city while committing a crime I have no sympathy for you and don't wnat the cops to waste their time helping you. This applies to suburban and city residents. The difference is city residents don't go whining to the paper or complain how bad the city is because they can't safely break the law.
2. If you are in the city and not committing a crime I would hope that the police would be there to protect you and hope that you are not the victim of a crime. This applies to city residents and anybody else, regardless of where they live.
Unfortunately, the police may not be able to respond to the people in [[2) because they are busy taking calls about the poor people that are [[1).
I hope that is clear enough for you.
Take a breath everybody.
If you go to Packard or any other ruin site, you go at your own risk. I think everybody pretty much knows that and I have never heard anybody saying they should expect protection or sympathy. If they don't they must have just fallen off the turnip wagon.
As for the original post and headline, I find it rather hyperbolic. Only two crimes, one a not untypical smash and grab, the other a very vague and unverified attack, are cited. From the headline one would be led to believe there is a major crime wave occurring at the property. There isn't.
It is no more safe/dangerous than anywhere else in that part of town. If anything it is safer now because there are so many tourists around. The main risk is the structure, asbestos, and other hazards. The rewards are some of the most stunning and revealing vistas one will ever see.
if your lucky you might find a banksy or other precious piece of art in there....
My only reason to post was to see what people's reactions are regarding tourists coming into town to see abandoned ruins, but never going in these buildings I realize people go inside more often than not. But there's also quite the number of us that just want to drive by and check it out because we love old buildings and history.
I believe the people here are reasonable enough to be accepting of the people's desires to see them, but I completely sympathize that residents would be upset when they see visitors coming to town and breaking laws...doing what they see fit.
This isn't something unusual. Visitors treat the places they visit differently than residents everywhere. My building is in a tourist hotspot, and I can't tell you how many times our lobby staff downstairs had to deal with unruly drunken tourists from out-of-state and internationally that will barge into lobby demanding to use the restroom and will sometime get in arguments with our doorman. We've had to call the police on drunken tourists from time to time. That requires two officers in a squad car, police time, and taxpayer money. So spare me the story that this is using up police resources. No kidding more people entering the city requires more municipal services on all levels.
Breaking news! the ghetto is dangerous! WTF? really, this is a news article?
the sooner the naive mall kids lose interest in the Packard the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaCoTS
As far as I can tell, little Emily got exactly the same level of attention and service from both the perps and the cops that folks in the city get.
She just had higher expectations.
Cheers!
John
Emily does sound full of her self when she says she won't be going back there again. It's a vacant factory that is decaying into ruin. It's not a local restaurant and you're not giving a Yelp review. Nobody cares if you are there or not. Except apparently the person who saw you hide your valuables in the trunk.
Whereas yes, people should be able to take pictures from a sidewalk in Detroit in peace, most of the city does not have enough public safety to respond to the current call volume. That is why all the cities in Metro Detroit should be dissolved and public safety should be allocated as needed. Therefore the bored cops of Troy could have handled her case.
What I find curious is that we are on a site that the founder/author/photographer, is in the words of so many on here a law breaker, unless he had permission from all the owners of all the buildings photographed, which I doubt......and yet we all don't mind being a party to it. Sort of makes those who apposed this behavior that are posting on this site hipocrites. IMHO
Two words......Open Carry!!!
Well stated. Yelp review indeed!
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Originally Posted by laphoque
Or something in a state of decomp. No thank you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goose
Two more words: Hard Hat.... one more, a good Respirator. I'd not want to breath in the stuff of many of these ruins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Searay215
Hilarious post HT! --;)-- Don't forget the respirators and hard hats folks. Fun for the whole family!!
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Originally Posted by Hamtragedy
Hopefully it's clear enough for you that this is pretty absurd. Your posts are nothing more than victim blaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
The city won't do anything because it CAN'T do anything. Nor will the owner. It's a pathetic situation, really. Here's the second part of the series about the Packard: http://is.gd/SQ8eVh
Was that the whole purpose of this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by neavling
Promoting another blog sensationalizing Packard by using non facts to make it look good.
The property description for Packard is over 100 pages long it was never combined into one,so the city would have to file multiple foreclosures and any one piece could put a wrench in the process.and add years.
Even if they did last year they paid on the average of $30,000 to $60,000 just in tripped on a sidewalk crack suits,imagine what a gold mine Packard would be.
Entering the Packard for which there are no 'No Trespassing' signs and is wide open with no barriers is and high crime, right up there with driving over the speed limit or not waiting for stop light to turn green in the middle of a night when no other car is in sight.
If you get caught or have consequences, tough luck. Pay up and don't complain.
I have been on this site a little over two years now and have never seen where the site owner have a stance on the right or wrong aspect,maybe he is like others and knows when you operate in the grey area and something happens it is all part of the risk,when I was young I rode my motorcycle through a farmers radish field,I got shot with rock salt but I could not go crying home to mommy because I knew what I did was wrong and that was the price I paid for my actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Searay215
So, you can say you got peppered with salt...curious.
Why are you using a Grenada domain? What are you hiding in that domain name that could be harmful?Quote:
Originally Posted by neavling
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.gd
Arrest everyone that sets foot on the site. Charge a $10,000.00 fine to be released from jail. No trial necessary since you were caught red-handed.
Can't pay the fine? Sit in jail until you can, but you're accruing a $100 daily fine in addition.
That should at least pay for some cops to patrol the site 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. They could even do it as extra, off-duty work like they do at bars and clubs.
Media that want to do a ruins story can pay a $50,000.00 permit fee to be escorted through the site.
I guess 22 year old Emily's notions of ruin porn visitation having some sort of novelty & romanticism were smashed. Too bad some folks don't realize the dangers of long abandoned buildings, tunnels, etc. I'd be too afraid of falling debris & leftover chemicals there to tour it.
The CofD won’t do anything again, because they failed miserably the first time in the late 1990s. The owner cannot do anything because the CofD owes him a lot of money and the CofD won’t pay up. They are at a standoff right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by neavling
Cristini is no boy scout and not a friend of mine, but in the late 1990s he had 90+ tenants in the Packard Plant before the CofD decided to use the DPD gang squad to forcibly remove all of the tenants and then they started to take sections of the building down. They took his property by force.
Here is a portion of a Detroit Free Press article you need to read and understand:
“In the late 1990s, the plant had scores of rent- paying tenants who stored their cars and boats there, operated small businesses and staged paintball war games inside the tattered warren of buildings that straddle East Grand Boulevard.
It was also a time when the city believed it had title to the property [[edit: they did NOT) through foreclosure for unpaid taxes. The state, meanwhile, planned to tear down the plant and remove hundreds of thousands of tires.
Cristini was collecting rents and managing the property. The city tried to evict him that fall, but he holed up inside while the city's gang squad stood guard.
In 1999, Cristini and his lawyers sued the city, saying it failed to give notice to mortgage holders when the city sought to foreclose on the property. Cristini's lawyers thwarted the state's demolition plans and launched what would become a decade-long legal battle.”
Yes, Cristini is a “shady” character, but the CofD caused this when used their police power to try and seize the property from him. However, several times, Cristini has won in court and at every appeal process. It has been rumored that an arbitrator sided with him and thought the CofD owed him a multi-million dollar settlement for illegally seizing his property.
So when Cristini’s real estate tax bill comes due he probably turns around and tells the CofD to “take it off the money YOU owe me.”
You can read more here:
http://www.propertytaxrights.com/ind...id=68:michigan
Now there are some revenue generating ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Shot gun blast with rock salt non lethal but stings like hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
http://www.ehow.com/how_8550567_rock...mmunition.html
I have been shot at by worse but that was as an example of consequences for our actions.
HAHAHHAHHAA! Good one, Gannon!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
Stromberg2
The city should charge a fee to go on the Packard Plant site. The fee could raise some money to help feed the homeless or something...
Who's going to collect the fees?
Those fines are hilarious too. City can't collect back taxes.
Unless you get meter maids in charge, forget it.
The heck with the city, just stand in that parking lot and charge for parking.....as long as your packin heat. Call it a service charge for not getting your car broken into....:)
Yeah, the neighborfools have no idea how much more money they'd make...
Yeah, everyone else throws up a "Park Here $XX" sign when a crowd shows up who'll pay it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Searay215
Parking $10
Leave Your Keys.
Say goodbye to your car.
You sound fun to party withQuote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
seems that wayQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard
I must remind you that the plant was used as an industrial park up until about 1999 or so. It has not been abandoned for over half a century. Any publications that makes this claim didn't do their research.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefmich
Other than Packman41, does anyone else here actually know the reason why the Packard Plant is in the sorry shape it's in today? Judging from many of the comments in this thread, I'm guessing not.
Scrappers/vandals aside, you people do realize that the city is DIRECTLY responsible for what remains today? They caused this mess. If they didn't try for that illegal land-grab, the place would probably still be rented out and used today.
Also who ever wrote that blog doesn't know what they are talking about. Not good writing at all with lots of inaccuracies. Even the caption of that photo is false.
Is that Detroit Blog guy still around? I always enjoyed his writing efforts, especially his older stuff.
So if a Detroit resident cross 8 mile and try's to steal something form a store, and the store owner kicks his ass, the detroiter call the cops, and they don't show up, to fukn bad,fuk him because he is from Detroit . It is the police job to protect and serve, am I missing something we are still in America right?
Nope--if he trys to steal 'something,' and gets his ass kicked by that 'something' s rightful owner, fuck him because he was a moron who counted on pulling off an effortless crime. Fuck him where ever he's from. It's a person's right to protect their property, the police don't have to deal with that crap, and the criminal isn't going to call the cops anyway, because he has warrants!Quote:
Originally Posted by GUSHI
Remember years back the story of the kid who was shot by cops because they thought he was reaching for a weapon when he was reaching for a cigarette?
Moral of the story: don't smoke.
This is no different than a john calling the cops because the prostitute just rolled him or a drug addict who calls the police because his dealer stiffed him.
You were breaking the law, something bad happened and the cops have no sympathy. You're surprised by that?
__ __ __ broken record quote of the day: The city caused the plant to be in the ruinous state it is in, they can and should pay for the demolition. Kids, it ain't safe there, hasn't been for a while, it's the wild, wild east there. You are on your own.
Do you feel the same way about illegal immigrants? They're here illegally after all, so "fuck them," right? Anything bad that happens to them is justly deserved. And should they have the audacity to become the victim of a crime and wish to report it to the police, they should be immediately detained and deported.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
I mean, you're not a hypocrite, right? So I will safely assume that the same standard you apply to people like Emily Johnson will also be applied to all of the undocumented immigrants living in Detroit and elsewhere.
It doesn't matter who what when where or why. If your in a situation that is not legal by your own choice then you left your rites behind. Why would you not deport undocumented immigrants and why should our tax dollars go to help them?Quote:
Originally Posted by aj3647