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I certainly hope this doesn't become a fad or trend. Didn't need to read this while 1,200 miles away from home.
http://www.freep.com/article/2012060...text|FRONTPAGE
I simply cannot imagine what this experience was like...and why this particular house was chosen to be invaded.
Yuck.
"...a few blocks from the city’s border with Detroit."
The news in this region continues to do this. What pisses me off is it is a blatant, yet subtle way of blaming Detroit for the crime.
Funny that I have never read a story of a crime in Detroit that included the proximity of the crime to a suburb, or of a crime in a suburb that listed the proximity to another suburb.
This crime is also near Grosse Pointe Woods, and not far from Eastland Mall & the city of Eastpointe. No mention of those, which if the intent was to give the reader an idea of where this crime occurred would have been much more descriptive.
The reason for including Detroit was to blame Detroit.
The worse that I read was a story about something that happened in either Warren or Centerline, and it was said to be "close" to Detroit. It was a mile and a half away! I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same author.
We have enough problems and enough crime in the city itself. We don't need reporters piling those that occur elsewhere on us too.
something fishy, they knew there was something in the house of value, [[drugs?) or wanted to send a message... thats not an area where random houses are invaded by force.. most homes in the area you aren't going to find piles of money or jewelry that it would be worth the risk and the time of actually using a sledgehammer to break into the house while people were there.....
Troy, Mich. - A couple says they were robbed at gunpoint in the middle of the day. But this didn't happen on the streets of Detroit. It went down at the Somerset Collection, the upscale shopping destination in Troy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtf1972
This was my recent favorite: Why did the writer feel the need to namedrop a city thirty miles away before actually naming where the robbery took place?
But call out the media around here for the dogshit it is and people get their drawers in a twist.
Not to split hairs, but Detroit is not 30 miles from Troy. Don't blame the media for being fabricators before you check your facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by brizee
Where's the National Guard? Where's the tanks?
This is the shit I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Rather than respond to the point of the post, you'd rather defend the indefensible and try to lob some pointless barb.
Ok it's not 30 miles. Google says it is 20.9 miles from my job to Somerset Mall. Does that in ANY way change how despicable these writers are in trying to use Detroit to conjure up unsavory images in their readership?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtf1972
But, at least in the case of Harper Woods [[and certain other inner ring suburbs), the reason that Harper Woods is a near-slum is precisely because of proximity to Detroit.
If you look at who commits crime in Harper Woods, it's almost all Detroiters or former Detroiters. The problems in Harper Woods are because of newcomers from Detroit.
In short, the relative level of inner suburban decline is almost directly proportional to the relative level of Detroiter influx.
Now, granted, this isn't the fault of Detroiters as a whole. But there is a specific demographic of ghetto folks in Detroit who, when they move into another jurisdiction, tend to bring the new jurisdiction down to their level.
Wow.. hyperbole much? its at 16 mile road. 16-8= 8. I mean talk about pointless barbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by brizee
It was said because an armed robbery in daylight at this 4.5 million resident region's ONLY high end shopping mall is a "headline". Wasn't that the point of the statement... to put the crime in context? In one place its a headline, in the other it's barely news.
I'd imagine if Detroit were a real city with a downtown that had an actual functioning retail district...high end or otherwise.... and similar crime occurred, the headline would be about how it happened there... and not in a sketchier area of the city.
Is it lazy? sure.. but "despicable" attempt to "conjure unsavory images" ...c'mon.
The Somerset armed robbery suspect arrested in an 18-year-old Detroit resident:
http://troy.patch.com/articles/troy-...obbery-suspect
So Detroit is in the picture. Detroit is a crime nexus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I agree with both sides here. First, you don't want to encourage the media and therefore all who read it to make statements or insinuations that any crime must be committed by a Detroiter. On the other hand, on the other side of town [[Redford), there has been an uptick in crime in the last few years and it seems that often it is committed by a Detroiter. Case-in-point, we had our first triple homicide in 30[[?) years, and it ended up being a Detroit man from the Detroit neighborhood that the victims had recently moved from who had come over and killed them over drugs or money.
Media must not fan the flames of the fire with unsubstantiated claims and bias, but at the same time you cannot turn a blind eye to real trends in areas neighboring [[and of course areas in!) the City.
Is it just me, or is your prejudice growing with time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
The majority of the people who live in this region were "former Detroiters" at one time. The reason Harper Woods is becoming a "near slum" is because it is failing as a municipality. Right next door, the Grosse Pointes are the definition of anti-slum.
The amount of BS you spew on this board is unmeasurable. So much so, that you provoke the majority of my posts. I don't even know how to respond to your theory about the "Detroiter influx" effect. When people left Detroit to populate your beloved Oakland County, you rode that horse all the way calling it progress. Now, you have suggested that Harper Woods is in decline because of the Detroiter influx. Listen up, kid, Harper Woods doesn't exist without a "Detroiter influx" and neither does the vast majority of present-day Oakland County. If Detroiters bring other jurisdictions to their level, then you should find most of Oakland County unappealing seeing as it was created predominately by former Detroiters. Nobody appreciates the "ghetto mentality" that is pervasive in both Detroit and its suburbs, but what happens in the 'burbs, the 'burbs must own. It's just as much their problem as it is Detroit's, and the sooner they get off their F'ing high horse and start giving a shit, the sooner we can make some necessary changes.
I don't care if you think I'm prejudicial.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
I believe that there is a strong correlation between inner-suburban decline and inmigration by ghetto folks from Detroit. If you think this isn't the case, then be my guest.
Can you think of an inner suburb receiving poor Detroiters from the slums and not declining? Are you suggesting that's it's simply correlation and not [[at least partial) causation?
I'm inclined agree with Bham. In an attempt to not judge the innocent as guilty, we're also failing to point the blame where it belongs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I've been a Detroiter for almost all my life. The problems facing these inner ring suburbs are the same problems that we've faced, too. They are not coming from poor municipal management. They are not coming from poor decision-making in Lansing. [[Though, admittedly, decision making in Lansing has not exactly helped our cause, either.)
It comes from an element in our society that is more destructive than constructive. Many of them are young, black, males. Some of them aren't. Almost all of them are poor. Few aren't.
Now it's silly to blame Detroit for this problem, just as it's silly to blame Qatar for something an Egyptian national did while in Syria. But it's also silly for everyone -- including Detroiters -- to say, "Well, it's not my fault."
Let's be real. Most of these problems are coming out of Detroit. Let's also say that most of these problems aren't the "fault" of "Detroiters". And lastly, let's quit pointing finger about whose fault it is and start working on how we can put a dent in this problem going forward.
I think the causation, broadly speaking, runs the other way. An influx of poorer residents is more a symptom of decline than a primary cause. If the place weren't declining to begin with, poorer people would largely be priced out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
The causation is far removed from the geographical boundaries of Detroit. In fact, it's even far removed from Metro Detroit. Most of the people we are talking about here are the descendants of poor migrants who came from the south. Before that, they were slaves, and before that, they were living on a different continent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I suppose your logic is that the City of Detroit is the causation for the poor slum people invading Oakland County, and that after they destroy Harper Woods, they will go and put St. Claire Shores into decline. The reality is, the scope of the problem is far greater and goes back much farther than anyone cares to admit. So, I personally don't give a shit about the imaginary border between Detroit and Harper Woods or any of the other suburbs. Clearly, you are too myopic to make the distinction, but the 'burbs need to realize that they are not living in a bubble immune from the great problems affecting the region.
People are either going to admit the truth, which is that Metro Detroit needs a comprehensive, multi-faceted plan to deal with its decline, or slowly but surely, the entire region is going to turn into a slum- and it has very little to do with geography and city borders. So, while I say that Harper Woods must own what happens in Harper Woods, we must all own what happens in this region and even beyond it if anything is ever going to change.
The difference in income levels between HW and the Pointes is quite stark. HW has a per capita income of almost $25,000 while GPW is around $39,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
The cities in question weren't on equal footing decades ago. One has obviously become a lot easier for poorer people to buy or rent a house.
There is a reason I have a couple people here on my ignore list.
Labeling any crime or decline in the suburbs to its relationship to Detroit is just as fruitful as labeling any crime or decline in Detroit to the exodus of the financial base from the city to the suburbs. Nobody wins in the argument. It's a stalemate because there are valid points to each side, but nobody listens to opposing views.
So ok, blame the city for everything... but what do we do about it? Move farther? Yeah, that seems to work out well in solving our problems.
You are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem.
BrushStartQuote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
I agree its their problem but If you don't mind...could you please define or list some of these changes you refer to that will "fix" or "remedy" the problem [[increase in crime) the inner Burbs are experiencing? IMHO, I think there is some truth to the direct correlation of the rise in crime and the influx of Ex-Detroit residents into the area. Its true the Burbs were initially populated by those who took flight from Detroit proper adding to the original population of farmers and city outliers. But when the majority of the white flight was over, the only folks left to move into the inner ring Burbs from Detroit were a percentage of the 88% AA population, am I wrong or misguided in my thinking?
AntonganstQuote:
Originally Posted by antongast
Great point, and explains why Grosse Pointe remains largely unaffected compared to Harper Woods which has a pretty standard bill of fair when it comes to housing stock and affordability to newcomers.
I have been reading about these types of stories happening in Harper Woods for the past 5 or 6 years. I took a drive through the HW around Easter and it looked well-kept. It didn't seem ghetto or slummed at all. Just how bad is HW getting? How will this level of crime affect GP and other nearby cities?
The first two signs that a neighborhood is going downhill are when renters make up majority of the residents and the nearby commercial districts are in decline [[made up of nothing but liquor stores, dollar stores hair/nail salons, cell phone stores and beauty supply stores). The homes and commercial structures don't neccssarily have to look dilapitated immediatetly when those two signs are noted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
About 10-20 years ago, the areas just south and west of Harper Woods, in Detroit were the way way you described.
Question – how is Redford Township holding-up these days? I bought my first home near 6 mile/Beech Daly back in the late 90’s, and I really enjoyed living there. The neighborhood was nice, working class, relatively diverse, clean, never any problems -- we felt completely safe in that area. Is it still a nice area?
You forgot "check cashing & payday loans":cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
What is it? Less than 8 miles to M-102? Detroit is a lot bigger than the area around your job. The point I am trying to make is people see things very differently. Some people look at things from 50,000 feet, others don't have the same persepective.Quote:
Originally Posted by brizee
How does HW's slide affect GP? Well, you can, for starters look at the the effect HW's decline has had on the GP schools [[part of HW is part of GP Schools). GP North and it's feeder Middle and elementary schools have declined substantially. GP South, however, [[where HW can not go) is the #1 Public/non magnet school in the state. That is a pretty amazing difference for two schools with the same resources in the same district.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
When anyone talks about forcing schools of choice on any district, all one has to do is look at what happened to GP North when a suburban district gets overrun by DPS refugees.
Again, it's not their fault, they've been cheated by DPS. The solution is to fix DPS though...not make massive remedial education someone else's problem.
You're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by EASTSIDE CAT 67-83
Here's the problem though.
While the ex-Dtroiters flee Detroit for the inner ring suburbs, the folks who previously fled to the inner ring suburbs, who were likely wealthier than the folks replacing them, have moved to an outer ring of suburbs [[now, its Auburn Hills, Lake Orion, Shelby Township, Lyon Township, etc.). Now that leaves thos communities they fled poorer, and its hard for them to provide the same services they provided to them to the ex-Detroiters moving in. Thus, the aforementioned cycle repeats.
And that was the point I think. Simply moving to 47 mile road and declaring M-59 the new 8 mile is an idiotic way to resolve the problems Detroit has, especially when you're only shifting the same number of chairs around. The problem is, like now, we've built infrastructure for a population of more like 8 million people yet we've only had 4 million people, who have grown poorer since the auto industry collapse. Between that and the growing cost of maintaining infrastruture, it's going to get quite expensive for evevryone to maintain the lifestyle we've developed her [[psychologically and financially), where as instead of promoting smart growth and holding our grounds while attacking the social ills we face, we run from them and try to dump that responsibility on thoes left behind.
I don't have a solution, but we can't expect to keep doing the same thing over and over again then complain when we don't get different results, that's for sure.
This all started because of the mortgage crisis. Cities like Harper Woods, Redford, Livonia, Southfield, etc used to be too expensive to rent for poor Detroit residents. With cheap foreclosures, lower housing prices, the rents in these cities got way cheaper. Poor, uneducated people from Detroit moved out into these suburbs and now brought their problems to these cities. With multiple generations of high school drop outs who can't read and are never going to be able to read, what do you do about these people? It is going to create a second wave of white flight out of the first ring suburbs, as the shootings start at the schools. There just is no easy answer. Maybe when a young man goes to prison, don't let him out until he learns to read at a required reading level. Until then, more police, tougher sentences and more prisons.
Has Grosse Pointe North's rep been downgraded that much? Is it that bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
People moving and population shifting from any location to any new location for any amount of distance in either direction results from many factors... e.g economics, quality school, safety, quality of life, retirement, personal choice, etc but I believe it is the responsibility of current resident regardless of where they live to be good stewards of their own environment and from a leadership stand point [[elected officials and public safety) be responsible to the tax base. To say its the fault of a previous population who left is to ignore the real problem and never address it.
BTW, I loved the Grosse Pte South H.S & Grosse Pte North H.S analogy, it is a pure sad fact what happen to that school, no doubt many residents who could afford it have now chosen to put their kids in private schools vs adapting to a lowered bar.
Someone said "let's be real" earlier in the thread and I thought I would offer up some of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EASTSIDE CAT 67-83
I'll start on a national scale. The country [[and capitalism) robbed our state of a a ton of manufacturing. It pushed a lot of people into poverty, and they didn't have many other options. Personally, this is where the rubber meets the road imo. We can do all we want regionally, but until our country makes a concerted effort to bring those jobs back, we'll continue to spin our wheels. The unfortunate part remains, most of this control is outside of our hands. Out monetarily elected officials are the ones to handle this situation.
Moving down to a regional scope, I think a few things stand out. First, people need to stop having babies who can not afford them. More so, our gov't needs to stop rewarding those who do. You can't continue to grow the population, but shrink the job base. Ont op of that, it strains our resources. More and more kids are growing up in homes without fathers, or without mothers who try to make their children care about society and contributing. And the cycle becomes more rapid every generation. These children who have no want for an education of any means [[nor is the one offered of any prestigious value) are obviously steered towards the easiest form of getting by; Crime.
If we could reappoint these "children of misfortune" into a society where they could find benefit in education and be given the ability to develop morals and ethic it would do two very important things. It would create disincentive for people to keep kicking out children, and it would also give those children a chance at being someone productive in society.
But that is very aggressive, and trying to pass a law that allowed the government to start taking children away from their mothers on a grander scale would be hard pressed to find its way through the courts.
On another side note, if we could somehow guarantee that all money allocated by the city, state and Fed makes its way to its appointed purpose [[and not past a gauntlet of greedy nets) it would go a long way to aiding those it was designed to aid. It just seems like anybody we put into the position of watchdog seems to give in to the greed. Way too much backscratching and backroom deals.
I used to live in Harper Woods before moving to Sterling Heights last year. I lived on Roscommon which is the next block near Beaconsfield. I left because of the break ins, robberies, carjackings, and shooting. Hell a 12 year old carjacked someone in Harper Woods. It all started when Detroiters started moving in. They had a gang shooting inside the mall. I bought my house in 1993 and sold it in 2010 for less than what I paid for it. Sold it to an investor who is likely turning it into a section 8 rental. I waited way too long. I should've seen the writing on the wall when the city wanted to close off the streets to help prevent crime. Harper Woods has a great police force and a city government that tries very hard to maintain a nice city but they're fighting a losing battle.
What I don't understand about the north vs south school thing, why does it matter? Just because the kids from Harper Woods are not doing well, doesn't mean the quality of education has decreased.
There was a gun fired in the highschool earlier this year too... The Detroit that borders HW has turned ghetto and now the disease is spreading. Back in the early 90s or so that area of Detroit had just begun its decline, but was still ok. Kelly road was free of bars on the windows of homes and the shopping area was quite a bit nicer!
That part of Detroit was just as nice as Harper Woods. It's right near East English Village and the St Johns area was nice. The only reason I bought in Harper Woods was the better services. It wasn't in decline in the 90's. In the 90's there was still a law that required city workers to live in the city so that part of Detroit was filled with cops and city workers. Property values were climbing up through the late 90's. Its decline started in the early 2000's and dropped fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave70
Hmmm... I just had a thought!
I know some on this board are staunchly against any sort of comprehensive public transit system in the city, feeling that the best transit system in the world is the highway system that we currently have. Some would even say that the solution to any transportation problems is to widen what we have & build more.
Well, the highway system we have greatly influenced... and influences the regional migration that we have seen over the past 50 years. The Somerset thieves also more than likely used one of these highways to jump in a vehicle and drive to their target crime scene.
So with that said, in order to protect the suburbs we need to build a comprehensive transit system in the city and convert the highways to something that may ebb the regional migration!
oh shit!Quote:
Originally Posted by jtf1972
What have you done!?!?
You just divided by zer..............
Inner ring suburbs have always been a place for Detroiters to move. Whether it was 1950 or now. The majority of inner ring suburbs that border Detroit attract most of their new residents the city of Detroit, with the exception of Grosse Pointe, Ferndale [[sometimes), and Dearborn. Now that the "Detroiters" that are leaving Detroit are of a different background, these inner ring suburbs are perceived to be turning dangerous and run down. This perception is turning a stereotype into reality and people start panicking and moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitgayhistoryguy
Look, my parents were burglarized in Southfield in 1981, long before the perception of today's Southfield existed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGinthe313
I've lived there for 8 years now. There are parts of town that are worse than others [[just like anyplace really), the last year or two there are more reports of crime in general, and more brazen criminals [[again, seems like that is happening in a lot of places).
I live in that same area west of Beech south of 6 Mile, and I couldn't ask for a nicer neighborhood. Even with some turnover in our neighbors as some of the older folks move on, everyone is friendly, respectful, and generally cares about taking care of thier stuff. Love being able to walk up to the small businesses in our 4 block commercial district on 6 Mile, something you wouldn't get in many of our neighboring towns.
St. John's area was nicer and lasted longer than Kelly/Morang/Moross/94, which was slipping by then. Meaning the neighborhood was getting rougher..Quote:
Originally Posted by Shollin
Originally Posted by jtf1972
"So with that said, in order to protect the suburbs we need to build a comprehensive transit system in the city and convert the highways to something that may ebb the regional migration!"
Really, your kidding right...protect the suburbs from whom??? So let me get this straight you want to build a comprehensive transit hamster tube in the city to keep people on a continuous loop inside of 8 mile so they wont migrate to the Burbs and then fill in the freeways and maybe plant some trees. Pass the Kool aid Holmes, well at least it was an entertaining post.
Southlake high school in SCS is gone... they are in the bottom 5% of schools in the State and have been placed on double secret probation.... SCS is already on the downfall.... Grosse Pointe is declining also.... GPN is becoming a gang cesspool with low test scores and rampant drug problems.....Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
[[Shhhh! If we convince suburbanites it's for their own good they may approve something that will actually help the city!)Quote:
Originally Posted by EASTSIDE CAT 67-83
Divide by Zero... :)
What????????Quote:
Originally Posted by Goose
You apparently didn't see Animal House...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheels
Got me snoozin!:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
Thanks for the update – it’s good to hear that area is still doing well. I was on the opposite side of you -- North of 6-mile, East of Beech [[Olympia Street).Quote:
Originally Posted by cramerro
I drive through that area often to go to baseball games at Claude Allison. Which leads me to the only complaint, which is that there has been quite a bit of stuff going on in that park... strange given there is a fire station staffed 24/7 attached to it, but its such a big area there are a lot of places to stay out of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by AGinthe313
The Township recently got a grant and installed some cameras, hopefully that will help because some people are afraid to take thier kids there during 'off' times.
Call Officer Maier out of retirement. ;)