DETROIT -- They call this the Motor City, but you have to leave town to buy a Chrysler or a Jeep.
Borders Inc. was founded 40 miles away, but the only one of the chain's bookstores here closed this month. And Starbucks Corp., famous for saturating U.S. cities with its storefronts, has only four left in this city of 900,000 after closures last summer.
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...d=family-autos
well, I think this would be the 3rd thread on this article?
Hmm, retailers are leaving Detroit. Not a surprise but hey we are in a recession.
Retailers in any city need tourists to come to their city and shop. Now, we always need the locals to support the retailers but a major city need tourists to visit the city. When it comes to tourists visiting Detroit, Detroit is like a "X" on a map as a place to avoid. People would visit Chicago before they come to Detroit. Go to Chicago and they have retail all through downtown. They can support it because they have people going downtown to work, to shop, to play plus they have the "ELs" which can people from O'Hare to downtown. Detroit have no setup and trust me travelers know this.
Detroit have three casinos yet the majority of their revenue comes from locals. People aren't going to fly in to Detroit to gamble. Detroit badly needs money from outside the state because suburbanites have no incentive to shop in Detroit when you have mega-malls like Fairlane, Twelve Oaks and Sommerset still in operation.
To sum it up, if retail downtown or in the city period is to survive, Detroit needs to be more like San Francisco and not like......Detroit
Er, featuring a fact-based wire article?Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesyxx
The manager at Border's told me that their corporate office received thousands of complaints about the closure of their downtown store. She said that there were threats and name calling, and that Borders was in the process of opening 2 more stores in the burbs. She said I could continue shopping there. I told her I am boycotting Borders and will be shopping online from now on.........
In the grand scheme of things, Borders would not have closed that store if it was a profit-maker. Regardless of how bad folks want retail in the city, it has to be supported. That is the sad reality.
It's piling on. Hey everyone, in case you forgot, Detroit sucks! Why would anyone ever want to live there? Stores and people - they're all fleeing for the exits!Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
Why else would somebody across the country - or world - care about the closing of a Borders or Chrysler dealer?
Find me something positive about Detroit in the national news and I'll believe that this is responsible journalism. Until then, I feel like this is the equivalent of making fun of the nerdy kid to make ones self feel better.
I seriously doubt the author, The Wall Street Journal and Yahoo! News had the collective intent to bully poor ol' Detroit, you've portrayed their coverage as being. Perhaps you should examine your intentions when reading the news - are you looking for facts, or are you looking for pick-me-up? It's the difference between a source like the Today show and something like The News Hour with Jim Leher.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazootyman
Sorry that you have trouble coping with reality. Maybe you should contact WSJ and Yahoo! and tell them they shouldn't dare report such awful truths ever again - unless they send you an ice cream cone to make you feel better about it. :p
This is one thing I'll never understand about some members of this message board: Why is it automatically assumed that when one challenges the endless stream of negative news about Detroit, they're in denial? Did I say that things were fine? I did not. I have no issue coping with reality. Nowhere did I claim that these stores didn't close, or that the city is not in dire straits. But tell me this: what is newsworthy about half a dozen stores closing in Detroit from a national perspective? Does it do anything other than just further soil the city's image from a national perspective?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
I'll give you an example. I have a friend who recently relocated to the area from Indiana [[a job transfer - go figure). His parents were up to visit a couple of weeks ago, and since he was new to the area, I passed along some tour suggestions to my friend [[his roommate) who would be taking them around downtown over the weekend. Turns out his parents had a great time - and according to him - kept saying "wow, this isn't really that bad at all". Does that make everything okay? Of course not. But it just goes to show what an impact the constant negative news out of Detroit has on an outsider's view. Had their son not moved into the area, chances are they would have never given the city a fair shot. True, it's a city with vacant storefronts, crime and corruption - but there's a hell of a lot good stuff happening here too... and it doesn't make the national press on a level anywhere near the negative stuff. PR goes a long way in revitalizing a city, and we just can't catch a break.
I really don't care if some stores close in Houston, if some guy stubs his toe in Albuquerque, or if someone is just plain having a lousy day in Tampa. If a major city is broke or if their economic base is crumbling, tell me about it. So, yeah, Detroit, you're a widely acknowledged broke loser...but just for kicks, let's tell everyone your mom is ugly. Never mind the fact that you have a certain charm and hidden talents.
For the record, I would in fact like an ice cream cone every time such a story comes out. :rolleyes:
Whoa, you sure told them. I bet the entire company folds now.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere
I wouldn't have expected to, just making conversation. That was my very first post on this website, and you sound like a jerk. Thanks.:confused:
I was just being sarcastic, relax.
Well, we have another thread in this very forum about Bing not addressing Detroit safety issues.
If people can't expect to feel safe in Detroit, they can't be expected to shop there, and if people can't be expected to shop there, would-be businessmen can't be expected to find it an attractive place to do business. Especially when it is located within MICHIGAN, arguably by any measure one of the worst if not THE worst state in which to do business.
I would say the first step is address the safety problem, the second step is fix the tax problem, and the rest will follow.
And, oh yeah, especially in the downtown areas, that pesky little issue of expecting people to pay for parking. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Sorry, you can't expect to get away with that when [[a lot of) parking in the suburbs is free.
The parking enforcement is well funded, they are expected to fill a quota, and they are the largest revenue generator at 36th. Their main targets are downtown, Wayne State, the hospitals, and New Center. When days are slow, they go into the neighborhoods and harass poor people and old folks.
Oh yeah, and at night people throw rocks and trash at their parked cars down the street from my house.
Yeah, you have to go all the way to Highland Park.Quote:
They call this the Motor City, but you have to leave town to buy a Chrysler or a Jeep
I sais the same thing, but you know it takes some real investigative journalism to figure these things out....
The nature of your challenge was a denial of sorts - not a denial of the overwhelming negative aspects of the city, but denial that the article was a fair assessment of the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazootyman
If there's one thing I don't get about the many pro-Detroit posters here is how they create controversy where one doesn't exist. This article and your reaction is a prime example. The writer was in no way thinking "So, yeah, Detroit, you're a widely acknowledged broke loser...but just for kicks, let's tell everyone your mom is ugly. Never mind the fact that you have a certain charm and hidden talents." You unfairly projected that upon him and the article. The article did exactly what you asked for: "If a major city is broke or if their economic base is crumbling, tell me about it." The article did that, but then you attacked it.
I don't want to lump you in with some of the other Detroit proponents here, but I don't have much hope for much change for the better when the response to a critical review of the state of the city can be boiled down to "Bu... bu... bu... but Downtown! Midtown! You're just a negative meanie!"
Clearly, Borders did not know how to do business in the city. The sign should have read:
BORDERS
BOOKS
BEER
LIQUOR
PIZZA
Likewise.Quote:
Originally Posted by xstigmatax
Where did I claim this? If you're going to make a point, at least have a valid argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by xstigmatax
I acknowledge several times in my post that the city has major issues. I never deny this.Quote:
Originally Posted by xstigmatax
Actually, I was questioning the necessity of said article. But, I suppose this is where we have to agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
That said, I'm surprised the article didn't find it necessary to reference the 1967 riots. Most do.
I agree and disagree on this point. A book store and a car dealership aren't really a fundamental part of the economic base, compared to the automotive industry in general, which affects everyone. They are an indicator of the health of the local economy, however, but hardly unique to Detroit. Border and Chrysler are closing a lot of retail outlets; it's not specific to the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
My point in mentioning the positive response to downtown was in no way meant to suggest the positives in downtown and midtown make up for the rest of the city's problems. Instead, it was meant to show the effects of the negative PR on a national level. People who had never been to the city already had their minds made up before visiting. We have a huge image problem around here, not to mention a complete lack of regional pride. Imagine if the negative image alone prevents a company from considering Detroit as a location to open a franchise, office, or headquarters?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
I think you just proved my point that you were creating controversy out of thin air. You argue that the article is unnecessary, but it seems you believe that because it was a negative assessment. I'm going to assume that you would have absolutely loved the article if it was all rainbows and unicorns.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazootyman
As far as necessity - I was under the impression that the collapse of the auto industry is big news. The article is about the impact the collapse has had on an economy that has been overly reliant upon auto manufacturing. Tell me if I'm getting too conspiracy theory here and connecting dots that shouldn't be connected...
See above: the article was specifically about the effects of the auto industry collapse upon Detroit because Detroit has been overly reliant upon auto manufacturing. The article wasn't about the general state of retail nationwide. Borders and the car dealerships were highlighted because suffers from a major chain/brand retail deficit compared to other cities of its size. The closing of the downtown Borders is unique because it was the only location in the entire city - the 11th largest city in the country. Call me crazy, but I would be amazed if the other large cities in the country have only one Borders, Barnes & Noble or other regional bookselling chain within the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazootyman
Let me get this straight - you admit that the city has problems, but you don't want those problems revealed to entrepreneurs? Any business who didn't do a thorough business study of any possible new location [[including the state of the local economy) would be seriously irresponsible. Most larger entities wouldn't be as prejudiced as the tourists you wrote about before. And there's a HUGE difference between some prejudiced tourists experiencing a weekend revelation and a company making a long-term investment in relocation, employment and the other day-to-day battle of doing business that visitors will never have to face.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazootyman
Sorry, logic is not on your side. Seems you're coming from a place of wounded pride more than anything else. As they say, "Don't shoot the messenger."
I'm about to concede victory here in this arguement - you make some valid points. But "rainbows and unicorns" is completely unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
It is big news. Nobody can deny that. Don't forget that the automotive industry that is now seen as so unfortunate brought this region incredible wealth. But Detroit's issues, until the last 10 years, have largely been independent of the success of the automakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
Am I crazy? Where did I propose anything be hidden? I just hate to keep seeing articles like this, offering little value to the outsider, other than worsening their impression of the city. It just doesn't seem newsworthy on a national scale, but I already know you disagree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
The flaw here is my arguement is not entirely objective - and before you jump on that - let me clarify that in this case, emotion is the basis for my concern. That's to say that people get a feeling for a region based on its portrayal in the media, even if that image isn't entirely based on truth [[not arguing facts, just saying this for example's sake).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaFuzz
This article was cake for the author. How hard can it really be to bang out a page or two, putting Detroit is negative light? How is it that media such as Model D, Detroit Today, or even Crains Detroit, Hour Detroit are able to find positive, thought-provoking stories week after week? More importantly, why don't those make the front page of Yahoo?
Frankly, at this point I don't know what else to say. I admit you've got some valid points, and I do concede that you're probably right, but I'd like to fall back on the fact that we should all be promoters of the city. A little blind optimism on top of a solid basis in reality [[which, despite your accusations I do have) can't hurt, and should be encouraged [[it's DetroitYES, after all). Wounded pride is better than no pride at all.
not sure if I agree with you on this. most people that I come across on here are level headed individuals, who care deeply about this city.Quote:
Originally Posted by xstigmatax
Sure, Detroit has it's problems, but honestly, it is much better than being out in the suburbs with their identical strip malls, their soccer moms, and the like.
Detroit is just diff'rent
Detroit does not have a retail shortage. This lie gets repeated over and over again. And it's citizens do not lack for amenities. Again, another lie repeated ad-nauseum.
If anything, I think it could be argued there is too much retail relative to population trends and income levels.
In addition to the retailers within city limits, there are millions upon millions of square feet of retail right beyond the city limits.
1. To the southwest you have Fairlane Mall [[1.5 million square feet) and all the nearby major power centers
2. Due west you have various smaller malls and shopping centers in Livonia.
3. To the northwest you have Northland Mall [[1.4 million square feet) and nearby retail.
4. Due north you have Oakland Mall [[1.5 million square feet) and many nearby power centers.
5. To the northeast you have Eastland Mall [[1.4 million square feet) and nearby retail.
Except for maybe Oakland Mall and Livonia, all of these retail corridors are dominated by Detroit shoppers.
LOL, there are dozens and dozens of identical strip malls within Detroit city limits. The only major difference with suburban strip malls is that the proportion of party stores, liquor stores, and nail, hair and wig stores is considerably higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown diva
As for "soccer moms", you mean "moms involved in their childrens lives". Reminds me of none of the parents [[lets be real, moms) showing up for parent-teacher conferences when she taught in DPS.
that is a generalization!Quote:
Originally Posted by crawford
there are planty of proud women in Detroit who take an interest in their children. We just dont feel like we have to take them to Soccer classes or ski lessons.
we just dont have to chauwfer them all over
Retroit you forgot one
Lotto
"Hundreds of buildings were left vacant by the nearly one million residents who have left."
Ha! Understatement of the year.
So Detroiters leave Detroit to shop in sufficient numbers to "dominate" all the "retail corridors" you mentioned in your post, and yet you think Detroit has enough retail to fulfill the needs of all its residents? If Detroit has plenty of retail, why do Detroiters go to places like Northland and Fairlane?Quote:
Originally Posted by crawford
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearinabox
Are you arguing that retail needs can only serve people exclusively within the jurisdiction they live? :confused:
There is no retail in Bloomfield Hills, so therefore, Bloomfield Hills is underserved by retail? We should ignore downtown Birmingham and the Somerset Collection just beyond city limits?
Detroit has plenty of retail BECAUSE they go to Northland and Fairlane. If you eliminated these centers, they would lack for retail, but not now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearinabox
There are six million square feet of retail in enclosed malls alone circling the city of Detriot. Undoubtedly millions more in power centers and strip centers. Not bad for a poor city of 800.000 [[and dropping).
Ask anyone in retail leasing or retail brokerage. There is no shortage of space in the core areas of the metro region. There's a horrible glut of space. The issue is how do we add demand, not how do we add supply.
The problem with the Bloomfield Hills/Birmingham analogy is that Bloomfield Hills has a tiny land area compared to Detroit. Surrounding a city the size of Detroit with retail is not the same as having retail inside the city. It's very far out of the way for people in the core areas of the city to go to the suburbs to shop. For someone living at Pembroke and Greenfield, it doesn't matter that Northland is on the far side of 8 Mile, but when 8 Mile is six miles north of you to start with, it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by crawford
Detroit and it's environs are better served by retailers than Miami is, and I know, because I live here!
I also live there, so I really do know.
If Yahoo's metric for Detroit was applied to Miami, Miami would be WORSE off than Detroit, since most department stores and restaruants are centered in suburban malls, while much of the city itself if devoted to warehouses, condo towers and little else. And most of them are vacant since the economic collapse.
The biggest regional mall in Florida, Aventura Mall is losing it's home furnishings stores to a local mall anchored by a casino/dog track [[Gulfstream), and is also losing it's Border's.
I am wedged in a gated condo tower development about 5 miles south of Aventura, and about 5 miles north of downtown Miami, and have to drive 18 miles to get to a California Pizza Kitchen [[my favorite chain restaurant), and 25 miles to the Container Store [[my favorite home store, yes, I'm a geek).
There is a Burdines, oh, sorry, Macy's in downtown Miami, but it's barely hanging on, and there is nothing else down there except latino fabric shops and cuban restaurants, which I don't really understand the draw. Rice, Beans & Plantains oh, my!
We couldn't even support a local Ruby Tuesday's, Macaroni Grill, Fuddruckers, and now Border's, amongst dozens of other establishments which have closed down recently.
The overrated MSG laden PF Chang's manages to hold on, since there are no other Chinese restaruants you'd even consider eating in within a dozen miles. :D
Detroit and it's burbs have more than ample shopping and other services compared with the backwater I live in.
Did I mention we have lousy pizza? Correction, one pizza place that is lousy. And one Pizza Hut that gives you uncooked pizza dough pizzas.
If it weren't for the Florida weather........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown diva
The green eyed monster is rearing its ugly head on this thread. Sounds like the Detroit women are the ones doing the generalizations. Because they are jealous of those "suburban" soccer moms perhaps?
Can someone instruct the proud Detroit women on the use of the spell checker, please?