I was shocked to hear that there were gang fights at St. Mary's Fair in Orchard Lake.....Orchard Lake!!!! Same thing in Westland.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/22...-ban-carnivals
I was shocked to hear that there were gang fights at St. Mary's Fair in Orchard Lake.....Orchard Lake!!!! Same thing in Westland.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/22...-ban-carnivals
This could be part of that 'Flash Mob" strategy. Flash Mobs comes in all colors and seek to disrupt any positive events.
There must be something in the tap water.
While I agree the problem must be nipped in the bud, banning carnivals outright seems like such a knee-jerk reaction [[instead of just increasing the policing).
I was enough with that loon running Warren having the stupid knee-jerk reaction of banning all pet sales [[instead of simply increasing the monitoring of these stores), but then Westland doubles down with this.
juggalos, the most dangerous carnival gang.
St. Marys Fair is surrounded by tough areas. Yes, tiny Orchard Lake [[population 2,000) is fancy, but Pontiac, Keego Harbor and Waterford are anything but. That fair has always attracted a rougher element.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newdetroit
Police officers don't grow on trees, and they don't work for free. Every officer you put at that carnival is one less patrolling the streets. There are practical and financial considerations here, these municipalities already are cash-strapped and have seen their police forces shrink in size. How much can these small municipalities really handle when their carnivals act as magnets for dozens of gang members from Detroit or Pontiac?Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
Sad but some teens have a determined agenda to be disruptive for sport! Soon as the ruckus starts they are as many people fighting as there are phones 'held' up to capture the joy for upload to the sites that celebrate this mess: worldstarhiphop, youtube, tumblr. etc.
Oh please. Westland has relatively very little crime problems and 105 sworn officers.Quote:
Originally Posted by aj3647
If it can't delegate a few more officers for these type of events, then there's a problem with management. It can even request help from the WCSD or neighboring communities.
Royal Oak manages to handle its events just fine with only 64 sworn officers.
It seems to be everyone's damn fault except the perpetrators.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
If there are "gangs" in Westland, they're home-grown, not from Detroit. They may have roots there, but Inkster, Wayne and south Westland are more than capable of making their own trouble. Garden City, too.
With effective management, you can handle the perpetrators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
With effective parenting, you wouldn't have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
I always thought Westland was a bit rough around the edges. I remember people calling it "Worstland". That whole area of suburban Wayne, while filled with perfectly decent people, does have some economic and social challenges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_c
Until we have parental licensing to ensure all parents are effective, we need to manage society according to it's lowest common denominator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
As someone who works in law enforcement and has worked a number of church festivals, I can say you are mistaken. Regular duty officers don't work festivals/carnivals. It's reserve officers that work these events.Quote:
Originally Posted by aj3647
Well since we can't take bats into the skulls of these parents to knock some sense into them, we can only do what's in our power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
Banning events outright that your citizens enjoy isn't fair when a few people are causing the problems. Instead, do what's necessary to keep those few vagrants away.
Using that logic, the fireworks show in Detroit should have been banned after those few perpetrators shot those people in Hart Plaza.
"St. Marys Fair is surrounded by tough areas. Yes, tiny Orchard Lake [[population 2,000) is fancy, but Pontiac, Keego Harbor and Waterford are anything but. That fair has always attracted a rougher element."
The gangs of Keego Harbor? Somedays, DY posters do their best impression of the Onion.
I don't necessarily think the parenting has to be effective as much as it needs to be attentive. Although I suppose it could be argued that they go hand in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
Don't forget the muggings and purse snatchings. Detroit seems to be a bit more resilient in these matters then "those other guy's". But the crux of the problem is, it's NOT making any brownie points with outsiders. Then people wonder why did everyone leave? Must be the freeways.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
That's a strawman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
We're not talking about living in Westland or Detroit as a whole, rather just specific events that are hosted in these communities and attract huge crowds.
Have you been to Keego Harbor [[it's tiny, I bet most haven't)? It's about one-third trailer park.Quote:
Originally Posted by Novine
I'm not saying Keego Harbor has gangs [[I have no idea whether that's true) or is some horrible place to live, but the original comment implied "Wow, in Orchard Lake of all places", when Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego.
Being less affluent doesn't neccessarily mean being more criminal [[and vice-versa).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
NEVER! It was always "Wasteland".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I totally agree. But the implication was "how could there be gangs in hoity-toity Orchard Lake", when the St. Marys Fair isn't really in a generally hoity-toity area. Orchard Lake [[the community) is just the narrow perimeter of the lake itself, when everything inland is in a different community.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
No it isn't. I worked Downtown when the mugging and purse snatching happened @ the fireworks. The women in the office were terrified to leave the building @ lunchtime. Now I work in the 'burbs. Just 2 minutes ago a co-worker announced "Are you kidding? I never go to Detroit". He was asked about the going Grand Prix. People equate these kinds in incidents WITH Detroit, and it doesn't help with it's reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
You're missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
Unlike Westland, Detroit didn't ban its fireworks simply because of criminal activity. Instead, the city did what was necessary to lower the potential of said criminal activity taking place. Thousands of people still atted the Fireworks every year.
Ok, I'll give you me missing the point. But in all honesty, I think Detroit is flying by the seat of it's pants on the fireworks, and hoping nothing seriously goes wrong. I don't think they have the manpower or know how to stop anything serious. Also Canada is a major contributor to the fireworks. That might be a factor as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
"Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego."
If Orchard Lake is surrounded by anything, it's surrounded by West Bloomfield. Next you'll entertain us with tales of the gangs of Sylvan Lake or the gangs of Walled Lake.
Except I didn't even allude to gangs. I said the area wasn't affluent, and was adjacent to rougher areas, which is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Novine
Westland PD does not have a reserve or auxiliary unit, at least not one that I can find any information about on the internet. So if Westland PD wants to put more officers at the festival, that means more overtime or fewer guys out on the streets.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
Orchard Lake is one of the most affluent areas! Secondly, people from the hood of Pontiac never come to Orchard Lake and it is further away than Bloomfield hills and Bloomfield township etc. The people who come to St. Mary's Fair generally are from West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Keego Harbor, Commerce Township, Bloomfield and Birmingham areas. All upper middle class areas [[except keego harbor) I have overheard people saying that these gangs are the result of the influx of Detroiters who have moved into West Bloomfield and Farmington Hills during the last decade as this is a recent phenomenon. .....not people from Pontiac.
And you know all of this because you did an exhaustive survey of the festival attendees and asked them where they lived?Quote:
Originally Posted by Newdetroit
Are we really talking here solely about GANGS per se or 'groups' of teens that facebook and instagram each other to go to a given place to hang and act out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novine
No, I spoke to people who knew which high school most of the trouble makers went to. West Bloomfield High, Harrison, and North Farmington. Also, most of the people referred to in the "gangs" are black youth. I have lived in the area for 40 years and have attended this festival for the last 25 years. Pontiac has historically had a large black population for the last 25 years. It has only been in the last 5 years that more black youths are attending this fair. So I highly doubt the Pontiac black youth just found out about it and decided to start coming to the fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by aj3647
From 2000 to 2010, the black population of Farmington Hills grew from 7% to 18% and in West Bloomfield grew from 5% to 12%. During the same period, attendance of black youths increased at the fair. These two cities will become the next Oak Park and Southfield in the next 20 years as more whites will move.
keego harbor is less rich [[oops, i mean affluent) than surrounding areas.
these are from the 2000 census. the 2010 census blurb didnt have this info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keego_Harbor,_Michigan
The median income for a household in the city was $46,552
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchard...lage,_Michigan
The median income for a household in the city was $121,126
whoa!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvan_Lake,_Michigan
The median income for a household in the city was $71,875
Last year carnival by Westland Mall was gang related. Fighting for control in that area or areas in their territories. This was 2 rival black gangs. Cliques from Inkster and Detroit. A way to start a gang war for their trend is set it off in the suburban festivities. If you want a safe festival go be these rules: 1. Ban anyone who wear gang colors and wearing saging pants and shirts: 2. Commit security for weapons check. 3. Have more illusionized security.
cold hard streets of orchard lake. Its easy to understand why those kids need gangs. Times is tough and corners need protectin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
Ummmmmm, in English, please.
i think he means more 'police presence'.
a few cop cars parked where the gangs of youths get together for a fight.
its strange in this thread people are talking about not having the resources to put a cop at the fair. there are desk cops that can put on uniforms and patrol the carnival. it doesnt have to be a beat cop. it can be sargeants and chiefs even.
having fire fighters + truck would be more presence to dissuade roudy people as well.
theres even all that free federal homeland security budget for securing public gatherings.
what we should be concerned about is those racist protesters from florida that wanted to disrupt the arab american festival in dearborn. now they cancelled that festival since they cant legally ban the protesters from protesting.
why is a westland / orchard lake thread doing in the detroit section anyways? haha
The young man arrested in the Orchard Lake carnival incident was a long way from home. He is described as having hos home in detroit.
As far as "protesters" at the Dearborn event- I think you have conflated two sets of people. As has been established in court, the Dearborn police incorrectly arrested Citizens who were proselitizing for Christianity at the Dearborn Arab Festival. I don't believe that there was any protest involved. I don't think they are from Florida.
What was involved was that the festival organizers didn't want to honor their free speech rights and they were arrested.
There is quite a body of law about the right of American citizens to speak about whatever they like in "the public square"- which Warren Ave. certainly is.
I guess I will think twice when I try to the fill the balloon with the water gun game and instead of shooting at the clown's mouth I would shoot at the baggy pants kids. Figuring he was a bigger clown.
http://dearborn.patch.com/groups/edi...-int0de661e2faQuote:
Terry Jones, a Christian pastor from Gainesville, Fla., announced Friday that he and his group, Stand Up America! will be returning to Dearborn on June 14 to protest the annual Arab International Festival.
i remember the police having to come in to fence off everybody last year. didnt they also protest a mosque on mich ave? or they were going to before the city stepped in? i dont know.Quote:
The controversial Qur'an-burning pastor gained notoriety in the city after staging an anti-Islam rally outside of Edsel Ford High School in October 2012.
dont get me wrong. i support everyones right to free speech and free assembly.
you're also free to burn all the books you want, but then i'm going to call you a bookburning nazi.
That minister Terry Jones, was not at the festival last year. He was near the mosque on Ford Rd. On anothe ocassion. I think it may have been Good Friday. He was trying to get on private property to denounce the muslim faith. That's why he was barred and dragged into court.
At the festival, It was another group, that got a formal apology. They proved [[think) that they were promoting Christianity with lierature and nothing more- although I grant that they chose a confrontational venue and that certainly calls the true motive into question.
Maybe the Terry Jones' plans to go to the Festival this year tipped it over.
Anyway, Dearborn has a job cut out for it, balancing all these rights.
I think everyone is forgetting the gestapo tactics the police used to corral and ship off everyone who was ignorant of the quick curfew city council rushed through a few weeks before the fireworks last year.
I was a few stories directly above all that at Woodward and Jefferson...it was unreal to witness. Totally unfair to MOST who were caught up in it, because they were all bussed down to the precinct in the SouthWest...well after most of the bus lines had shut down. A good number of children spent the night in jail.
Every community has ways of calculating the worth of cancelling an event...or upping the security. But every one who has horses always brings them out, without anyone truly realizing they are a show of force, not friendly PR. Crowd control.
You can rationalize this all you want, but one thing's for sure, a lot of people won't be attending these events because of these "children". You know, the ones posing with 45 automatics and assault rifles, threatening others with harm @ the events. The ones that get their kicks blowing someone away and watching them die over BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
I meanQuote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
Illusion security!
I live in Westland, I understand why they want to do this since there have been problems before this years gang issue, the last few years at Westlands festivals/carnivals, a shooting, a stabbbing and last year a young child was messed with. Maybe they can regulate hours of operation and required security as an alternative to completely shutting them down.
You've solved the problem. We no longer need police. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
Why don't you change your handle to "Much ado about nothing", or "I don't get it"?Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
I don't want to steal your thunder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
I was just reading the article, after I read this thread, and decided to sample the comments a bit. I read this FB comment and reply... is/could this really be true? gangs go out to Belleville to engage each other???:
"Ich-bin Eine Mutter · Top Commenter
It's really a shame -- BUT... it is the EXACT problem that Belleville has dealt with in the last 10 years -- each year the Strawberry Festival draws gangs from Inkster to the east, and Ypsilanti to the west -- and it forces Belleville and Van Buren officers to work longer and harder --in very dangerous crowds.
Gangs don't care about the event, the fact that "a fight involving more than 100 young men broke out at the Westland Firefighters Charity Fund Carnival." is just disgusting...
And the Reply: Denise Miller · Top Commenter · Garden City West High School
a friend of ours use to volunteer at the Belleville festival and described it just this way and won't work there now because he said there were to many problems. These people act like animals!"
do they rent a bus to each fair? this is ridiculous.
i can picture that gang in the bus in the warriors movie.
Most of these places aren't more than 30 minutes drive from Detroit and other larger suburban cities. It's not particularly difficult for teenage dipshits, gang members, and criminals to hop in a car and drive 30 minutes to go cause trouble somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by compn
Read the fine print, they tweet each other. Governments were brought down by texn' & tweetn'..... But a vision of a gang on a double-decker Bianche travel bus singing campfire songs is kind of funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by compn