Could Borders move to Detroit?

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Borders Group Inc. is expected to outline a $30 million savings plan today in New York that include moving its Ann Arbor headquarters to Metro Detroit, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Borders officials will present their business plan to an unsecured creditors committee as the company operates under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and prepares to release the reorganization plan, according to the newspaper.


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110406/...#ixzz1IkAjPr37

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I would hate to see them leave Ann Arbor. But I always thought they would move to New York if they ever left Ann Arbor, so I guess it's some good news that they do plan to stay local. Could they go downtown?

I doubt it, they are not downtown now but in a suburban office park. If the point is to save money, you don't move somewhere that would require your workers to drive a long distance and have to provide paid parking. Most likely Borders is eying some space in a Western Suburb. There is a lot of space in Laurel Park and Victor Park that they can get cheap. My guess is they will go to Laurel Park as they still have a Border's Express.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I doubt it, they are not downtown now but in a suburban office park. If the point is to save money, you don't move somewhere that would require your workers to drive a long distance and have to provide paid parking. Most likely Borders is eying some space in a Western Suburb. There is a lot of space in Laurel Park and Victor Park that they can get cheap. My guess is they will go to Laurel Park as they still have a Border's Express.

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How far the workers drive is not on their company balance sheets... Neither is parking costs for that matter. But if the tax burden in Detroit was significantly less than what it is in Ann Arbor [[hypothetical, I don't know what the tax burden is in Ann Arbor), parking costs for employees would be a drop in the bucket.

Detroit might give them some temporary tax breaks, as has been done with other companies, like Compuware and Quicken.

I bet you they'll probably end up somewhere in Canton, most likely.

Do they currently own or lease? I ask, because the move only makes sense if they are currently leasing in metro Ann Arbor.

Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

How far the workers drive is not on their company balance sheets... Neither is parking costs for that matter. But if the tax burden in Detroit was significantly less than what it is in Ann Arbor [[hypothetical, I don't know what the tax burden is in Ann Arbor), parking costs for employees would be a drop in the bucket.

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If the company wants to retain employees it is part of the equation. Its not so much a tax burden but the overall costs that the company is looking at. With so much empty office space they really have a wide range of options. There is also a lot of empty space in the Ann Arbor area, and by metro Detroit they could just as well mean Pittsfield township as well as Downtown Detroit.

Don't count your chickens yet, thats all I am saying.

I doubt Detroit will give them tax breaks. The whole industry is not going to be the same. If the City gives anyone in that industry tax breaks it should be John King.

Borders does not fully own the buildings they are in. There are other companies in some of the space that they have given up already.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I would hate to see them leave Ann Arbor. But I always thought they would move to New York if they ever left Ann Arbor, so I guess it's some good news that they do plan to stay local. Could they go downtown?

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If they were a viable company, perhaps that would be a discussion to have. What they are looking for is the cheapest available space for the eventual wind down no matter what the press release says about re-org.

Borders HQ should move to Detroit, there should be plenty of empty office spaces, maybe partner up with Dan Gilbert's Quicken operations..

I just hope they survive. That seems to be the critical concern right now.

They are doomed, so it doesn't much matter where they go.

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Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

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A lot of people seem to think it is more fun to physically browse for books than to get them online, so I expect there will be some kind of bookstores. Video seems almost gone already. There will probably be some kind of collector music stores, but I wouldn't expect them to be much of a factor in any other segment of that market.

Good from the them. They can start by renting some of the offices in OCP Compuware and re-open its bookstore.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

If the company wants to retain employees it is part of the equation. Its not so much a tax burden but the overall costs that the company is looking at. With so much empty office space they really have a wide range of options. There is also a lot of empty space in the Ann Arbor area, and by metro Detroit they could just as well mean Pittsfield township as well as Downtown Detroit.

Don't count your chickens yet, thats all I am saying.

I doubt Detroit will give them tax breaks. The whole industry is not going to be the same. If the City gives anyone in that industry tax breaks it should be John King.

Borders does not fully own the buildings they are in. There are other companies in some of the space that they have given up already.

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Pittsfield Twp is no more Metro Detroit than Ann Arbor.

This is a company that will probably go through significant downsizing on top of the cuts that have already been made at the HQ over the past couple of years. In a state with well above average unemployment, I doubt they have to bribe employees to follow them by paying for parking.

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Originally Posted by bailey

If they were a viable company, perhaps that would be a discussion to have. What they are looking for is the cheapest available space for the eventual wind down no matter what the press release says about re-org.

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If they are planning to liquidate then they wouldn't be talking about leaving Ann Arbor.

I wonder if they plan to dissolve their HQ lease as part of their bankruptcy filing, hence why they plan to move.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

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Until a Kindle allows you to dogear and highlight pages, quickly find a passage, and doesn't wreck your eyes with its artificial light...

Until a compressed download played through plastic computer speakers can match the sound quality of a disc on a proper stereo...

there will be book and music stores. Hell, we still have live music and theatre don't we? The young whippersnappers overestimate their confidence in all things digital.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Until a Kindle allows you to dogear and highlight pages, quickly find a passage, and doesn't wreck your eyes with its artificial light...

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The Kindle does let you dogear and highlight pages. Also, skimming through a book to a specific spot is quite easy.

As far as the whole wrecking your eyes thing, I don't know where that is coming from. The Kindle is not the IPad. One of the main selling points of the Kindle is that instead of using a standard style computer screen to display the text it uses "E-ink". The end result is an image that produces text that looks similar to print and does not have the issues of eye strain that you find on computer screens.

Looks like we can cross off book stores.

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Originally Posted by EL Jimbo

The Kindle does let you dogear and highlight pages. Also, skimming through a book to a specific spot is quite easy.

As far as the whole wrecking your eyes thing, I don't know where that is coming from. The Kindle is not the IPad. One of the main selling points of the Kindle is that instead of using a standard style computer screen to display the text it uses "E-ink". The end result is an image that produces text that looks similar to print and does not have the issues of eye strain that you find on computer screens.

Looks like we can cross off book stores.

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Sure! Why browse for books when you can just purchase from the pre-approved list?

As soon as we let all media go exclusively into electronic format, it's that much easier for our corporate masters to determine the media they will let us access. I'm no conspiracy nut--just a bit hesitant to turn every waking moment of my life over to the seven corporations that run the world and sit in my isolated box where I can download every comfort known to man.

Blaming the downfall of Borders on electronic media is disingenuous. The same has been said of the entire music industry, who has given us almost nothing but shitty plastic pre-fab "artists" for the past 20 years. Rather than go into digital flag-waving mode, might we consider that some of these companies expanded too quickly? Had high overhead? Gave us shitty product and service? Crappy business plan? Catered to the wrong demographic? Too much inventory?

Those of us who remember the 1980s might recall the idea that digital synthesizers were going to dispense with the need for any other musical instrument. Why buy an entire drum kit when you can bang the hell out of some cheap plastic pads?

I love Borders, and I hope they survive, but I'm not convinced that their stores were sized appropriately, nor were they always located too well.

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Originally Posted by EL Jimbo

The Kindle does let you dogear and highlight pages. Also, skimming through a book to a specific spot is quite easy.

As far as the whole wrecking your eyes thing, I don't know where that is coming from. The Kindle is not the IPad. One of the main selling points of the Kindle is that instead of using a standard style computer screen to display the text it uses "E-ink". The end result is an image that produces text that looks similar to print and does not have the issues of eye strain that you find on computer screens.

Looks like we can cross off book stores.

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I don't think this is a referendum on bookstores so much as on the Borders business model. Borders reminds me of K Mart in that 1) they probably have way too many stores and 2) were slow to react to changing consumer tastes. And point one exacerbated the implications of point two.

I can point to examples of brick and mortar book stores, such as Strand in NYC, that are not competing in the e-book business but still seem to be weathering the storm. And Strand doesn't have nearly the resources to compete against B&N/Amazon that Borders does/did.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think this is a referendum on bookstores so much as on the Borders business model. Borders reminds me of K Mart in that 1) they probably have way too many stores and 2) were slow to react to changing consumer tastes. And point one exacerbated the implications of point two.

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Bingo! Kmart bought Borders around 1990 and took it from about 20 stores to several hundred then merged it with Waldenbooks. It was also one of the first things they dropped when they repositioned themselves. Along with Builder's Square, Office Max, PACE warehouse, Sports Authority...)

How many people currently work at the Borders HQ?

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Originally Posted by tkelly1986

How many people currently work at the Borders HQ?

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They are down to about 500 according to Freep.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think this is a referendum on bookstores so much as on the Borders business model. Borders reminds me of K Mart in that 1) they probably have way too many stores and 2) were slow to react to changing consumer tastes. And point one exacerbated the implications of point two.

I can point to examples of brick and mortar book stores, such as Strand in NYC, that are not competing in the e-book business but still seem to be weathering the storm. And Strand doesn't have nearly the resources to compete against B&N/Amazon that Borders does/did.

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I don't think so either. I was just being snarky because Ghettopalmetto was so unbelievably off on what the Kindle does and doesn't do. I have a Kindle and I really enjoy it because I simply don't have room to store all the books I read and I'm a packrat when it comes to books. I don't see books ever going away entirely, but I think e-readers will continue to be a growing and vital part of the market.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Sure! Why browse for books when you can just purchase from the pre-approved list?

As soon as we let all media go exclusively into electronic format, it's that much easier for our corporate masters to determine the media they will let us access. I'm no conspiracy nut--just a bit hesitant to turn every waking moment of my life over to the seven corporations that run the world and sit in my isolated box where I can download every comfort known to man.

Blaming the downfall of Borders on electronic media is disingenuous. The same has been said of the entire music industry, who has given us almost nothing but shitty plastic pre-fab "artists" for the past 20 years. Rather than go into digital flag-waving mode, might we consider that some of these companies expanded too quickly? Had high overhead? Gave us shitty product and service? Crappy business plan? Catered to the wrong demographic? Too much inventory?

Those of us who remember the 1980s might recall the idea that digital synthesizers were going to dispense with the need for any other musical instrument. Why buy an entire drum kit when you can bang the hell out of some cheap plastic pads?

I love Borders, and I hope they survive, but I'm not convinced that their stores were sized appropriately, nor were they always located too well.

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I disagree with your take on modern music. At least in the context of what you were describing. While I absolutely agree that the music "industry" has produced an epic, steaming pile of crap in recent decades, the access to quality, diversified, entertaining music has never been greater. This is thanks, in large part to the internet and digital media. The reasons are two-fold

In the old days, the only way for music to gain exposure was through the radio. Today, radio is but one place to get music from. Satellite radio, online streaming music like Pandora, and a host of other internet locations have made access to any and all genres of music a mere click away. This expands the amount of choices for the music consumer.

For the artists themselves, advances in technology have lowered the production costs of recording music. Combine that with the ability to put their music out on the internet and suddenly the garage band that would have just stayed in the garage 20 years ago can promote itself to the entire world.

Artistically, we are in a very interesting time for music. Traditional music sources [[radio and television) have never been more corporate, but alternate means of exposure for smaller acts and non-corporate music styles have never been more powerful and accessible to the masses.

Perhaps the same will happen with e-books over time. Perhaps they won't. However, to simply say that new technology like e-books is just another sign of "oppression by the man" is a very chicken little view of the world in my opinion.

It could bode well for their brand to relocate to Downtown Detroit. It could provide a fresh boost of energy for their employees as well. They could design their office similar to Quicken [[casual/silicon valley style with couches and soda stations) to encourage employee innovation and social interaction. And they could open a new flagship store that is oriented around the multimedia and the internet. Plus, rent is cheap Downtown and I'm sure they would get the cheapest possible tax rate of anyplace in the US. Plus, it is only 45 minutes from downtown Ann Arbor, so thats not too much of a drive, and many of their employees [[only 500 of them) could move to the city. It is all part of rebranding the city as a high tech innovation city, rising from the ashes of post-industrial collapse.

Whatever is being smoked by many of the posters on this thread.... I want some.

This may just be a arm-twisting bargaining ploy to get better terms from their current landlord.

I've been through this before -- I worked in the IT department of an auto-parts company that filed Chapter 11 about 10 years ago and announced to the HQ staff that we were moving to a new location about one mile distant, breaking the long-term lease with the current landlord. We had gotten to the point of designing the networking infrastructure in the new digs and were days away from ordering the equipment when, lo and behold, the existing landlord caved and offered new lease terms at about 1/3 of the old amount. We stayed put [[and the company is still there today).

Visteon Corp. was having troubles... and what did they do... they had that green monstosity built in Campus Martius.... just how many Visteon employees are in that location today??

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

They could design their office similar to Quicken [[casual/silicon valley style with couches and soda stations) to encourage employee innovation and social interaction.

And they could open a new flagship store that is oriented around the multimedia and the internet.

Plus, rent is cheap Downtown and I'm sure they would get the cheapest possible tax rate of anyplace in the US.

Plus, it is only 45 minutes from downtown Ann Arbor, so thats not too much of a drive, and many of their employees [[only 500 of them) could move to the city.

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I am sure that those are all ideas that the creditors and bankruptcy judge would approve of!

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Visteon Corp. was having troubles... and what did they do... they had that green monstosity built in Campus Martius.... just how many Visteon employees are in that location today??

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Visteon also had that monstrosity built out past the airport by Belleville at the same time... you know the one full of GE workers?

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Originally Posted by bailey

Whatever is being smoked by many of the posters on this thread.... I want some.

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I agree. That must be some good Turkish these guys are on.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Visteon also had that monstrosity built out past the airport by Belleville at the same time... you know the one full of GE workers?

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Yes, I was Googling Visteon before I posted and saw that GE employees had moved into the "Visteon Village". What was the logic of a struggling company building on 2 sites simulaneously??

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Yes, I was Googling Visteon before I posted and saw that GE employees had moved into the "Visteon Village". What was the logic of a struggling company building on 2 sites simulaneously??

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It's the 'Free Market' in action. Our brilliant corporate leaders leading us down the path of .............

I wouldnt be too hopeful but it would be awesome if they considered downtown. I think borders can survive if they have good leadership and are willing to make some serious changes. Moving downtown, i think, would allow them to change and improve their image as a place for creative professionals who are the best hope for the company. Ann arbor can kinda fit that bill too but not in a boring corporate campus.

<rant>
I don't fully understand the e book/kindle phenomenon except maybe for the hard core bookworm who wants to read everything and not buy/store it or doesn't have a library nearby [[which coincidentally applies to a growing number of us)

e books will never completely replace books. I'm not a much a reader but i'm working on a classic right now that i bought used. It may sound cheesy but theres something special about reading a 1000+ page classic thats worn and dog-eared from decades of reading and notes. Honestly i doubt I'd read the whole thing on an electronic book; it just seems a bit cheesy.

I don't want to offend any kindle fans I just don't think that the paper book is in danger of extinction anytime soon.

Yes, Borders could move to Detroit. But, why? They're trying to cut costs and hassles. Moving to Detroit, paying high taxes, high insurance, high commuting costs, dealing with city hall, city services [[an oxymoron in Detroit), the DPD, etc, etc, would negate everything. If Detroit is the only choice, stay where you are Borders. It is truly unfortunate, because I'd love to see Borders in Detroit, but the city [[administration) is just not ready for the big time. After city hall and administration has been gutted and rebuilt, Detroit will see an upswing in businesses relocating here.

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Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

Yes, Borders could move to Detroit. But, why? They're trying to cut costs and hassles. Moving to Detroit, paying high taxes, high insurance, high commuting costs, dealing with city hall, city services [[an oxymoron in Detroit), the DPD, etc, etc, would negate everything. If Detroit is the only choice, stay where you are Borders. It is truly unfortunate, because I'd love to see Borders in Detroit, but the city [[administration) is just not ready for the big time. After city hall and administration has been gutted and rebuilt, Detroit will see an upswing in businesses relocating here.

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Gee, you make it sound like there are no big corporations located in Detroit already.

Just recently I heard 2 horror stories about being a business owner in Detroit... as big of a Detroit booster as I am, I would definintely have 2nd thoughts about opening a business in the city, until they ACTUALLY become business friendly to small firms.

1) a Detroit business owner mentioned to me that someone from the city comes out once a year to inspect his dumpsters [[he has 4 of them)... that takes all of 2 minutes... the charge... $350 per dumpster. WTF??

2) another Detroit business [[on a very shabby stretch of Harper Ave. near Chalmers)... said that the city discovered that his front sign is overhanging city property [[it's more like a marquee). So the city is assessing him thousands of dollars for years of rental type fees. His business has already declined by 70% since the area started its' downhill slide 30 years ago. He's old, and tired of the city's harassing ways, and will likely just pack up and abandon his property.

"Therefore we will be exploring opportunities to relocate our headquarters within the Detroit Metro area to a more cost-effective location, mindful of our corporate employees' commute and other factors."

This is the actual quote, and to me it seems like they consider Ann Arbor as part of metro Detroit.

I also get the impression that they'll move to another suburban office building, because if they were moving to a downtown, they would be trying to sell the rebranding angle.


I do think though, that moving to a downtown [[Ann Arbor or Detroit) would improve the company's image, especially with the younger demographics. I think it could also help with recruiting efforts for if they ever have to rehire people. Moving to a downtown would be more expensive though, those vast suburban office parks exist because they're cheap.

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Originally Posted by Jason

"I do think though, that moving to a downtown [[Ann Arbor or Detroit) would improve the company's image, especially with the younger demographics. I think it could also help with recruiting efforts for if they ever have to rehire people. Moving to a downtown would be more expensive though, those vast suburban office parks exist because they're cheap.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]

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It would also allow Borders to get back in touch with the kind of character that made it a great store in the first place. Ever since they moved out to that piece of shit box off Eisenhower, its stores became just another one-size-fits-all box of generica.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Gee, you make it sound like there are no big corporations located in Detroit already.

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I made it sound like no such thing. YOU, interpreted it as you wanted.

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Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

I made it sound like no such thing. YOU, interpreted it as you wanted.

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I'm not trying to pick a fight...

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It is truly unfortunate, because I'd love to see Borders in Detroit, but the city [[administration) is just not ready for the big time.

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Your words, not mine. Detroit is home base of GM, which is still the largest private employer in Michigan, so I'd call that about as big time as anything Michigan can comprehend. So if Detroit can host a few thousand GM workers then why couldn't it handle a couple hundred people from Borders?

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

It would also allow Borders to get back in touch with the kind of character that made it a great store in the first place. Ever since they moved out to that piece of shit box off Eisenhower, its stores became just another one-size-fits-all box of generica.

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Agreed. Unfortunately, having owned businesses and properties in Detroit, and having experienced doing business with city hall, I'd almost never suggest moving back into the city. Most of the people and businesses are great. But they take much abuse. Until city hall becomes fair, professional and user friendly, you could easily go ballistic and have a stroke attempting to accomplish anything.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

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Yes, the industry will continue to evolve but there will always be a place in the market for them.

For starters, customers always have a desire to meet the authors behind the books. A brick and mortar store is ideal for doing said events. It's also something that Amazon.com really can't do effectively. [[They can host a chat, but you can't get your book autographed, pose for photo with the author, or shake his/her hand in an on-line chat.)

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Yes, the industry will continue to evolve but there will always be a place in the market for them.

For starters, customers always have a desire to meet the authors behind the books. A brick and mortar store is ideal for doing said events. It's also something that Amazon.com really can't do effectively. [[They can host a chat, but you can't get your book autographed, pose for photo with the author, or shake his/her hand in an on-line chat.)

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Well, yeah, but what is stopping that book signing from happening in a random coffee house, Costco, or empty storefront space?

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Your words, not mine. Detroit is home base of GM, which is still the largest private employer in Michigan, so I'd call that about as big time as anything Michigan can comprehend. So if Detroit can host a few thousand GM workers then why couldn't it handle a couple hundred people from Borders?

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You mean the few thousand GM workers that can't be convinced to stay in the city long enough after work to support a small mall right in its HQ? 5 years on, what is the occupancy rate there? 15%?

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Originally Posted by bailey

Well, yeah, but what is stopping that book signing from happening in a random coffee house, Costco, or empty storefront space?

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A random coffee house doesn't have enough square footage to accommodate a significant crowd, which limits the desire that an author would have to participate in said event.

Costco has the square footage to hold it, but much of it is dedicated to non-book merchandise. A meet and greet with J.K. Rowling loses some of its appeal when you're in the lawn & gardening section. It could be done, of course, with some clever re-arranging but it would still be a challenge.

An empty storefront doesn't have any of infrastructure one needs to support the event. You'd have to essentially build a bookstore for every event and then dismantle it after. Those added expenses dramatically eat into the overall profitability of the endeavor.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Sure! Why browse for books when you can just purchase from the pre-approved list?

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I can put any PDF or MOBI on my Kindle I wish. Just upload it via USB. I can download PDFs from stores other than Amazon.

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As soon as we let all media go exclusively into electronic format, it's that much easier for our corporate masters to determine the media they will let us access.

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This leads me to believe you don't really understand how computers work. You can get *anything* on the internet, if you know how to find it. Bans, firewalls, domain seizures - it's all academic. There are ways around everything.

Check these out:
http://www.gutenberg.org/
http://www.scribd.com/
http://www.wepapers.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/texts/

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Originally Posted by bailey

You mean the few thousand GM workers that can't be convinced to stay in the city long enough after work to support a small mall right in its HQ? 5 years on, what is the occupancy rate there? 15%?

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Not sure what mall occupancy rates have to do with the price of tea in China... But yeah, I guess those thousands of people who work in that HQ.

Wait a minute now...

I'm not so sure that they'll leave Ann Arbor. Many businesses play the "Bluff role" in hoping to get better incentives to help them stay. Ann Arbor is the life long home of Borders Books and their longtime employees. I'm not even sure that a new deal can't be worked out at their existing building with Agree R.E. Although I kind of find that unlikely.

I'd find it hard to believe that a city like Ann Arbor is simply going to let a corporation such as Borders Books walk away because of affordabilty.

I think they'll stay in A2.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm not trying to pick a fight...



Your words, not mine. Detroit is home base of GM, which is still the largest private employer in Michigan, so I'd call that about as big time as anything Michigan can comprehend. So if Detroit can host a few thousand GM workers then why couldn't it handle a couple hundred people from Borders?

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Face it, there are businesses presently in Detroit that have learned how to deal with the city administration, have unprecendented access or are too large to just pick up and move. GM being the best example. If not for their size and clout, they might not be here. Little Caesars is a good example. If Mike Illitch says jump, they ask how high. That's not necessarily a bad thing and probably fairly common in any city. But for newcomers, blowing the right people for a couple dozen years just doesn't cut it. And you missed my main point: if you're new and going to be insulted and manhandled on a regular basis, why be here? I doubt Detroit city hall would be willing or able to handle a new business of any size. And that's from mine and friend's experiences - first hand.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm not trying to pick a fight...



Your words, not mine. Detroit is home base of GM, which is still the largest private employer in Michigan, so I'd call that about as big time as anything Michigan can comprehend. So if Detroit can host a few thousand GM workers then why couldn't it handle a couple hundred people from Borders?

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Have you ever conducted business at Detroit city hall?

[QUOTE=iheartthed;236493 Detroit is home base of GM, which is still the largest private employer in Michigan, so I'd call that about as big time as anything Michigan can comprehend. So if Detroit can host a few thousand GM workers then why couldn't it handle a couple hundred people from Borders?[/QUOTE]

Wasn't GM forced to stay in Detroit during the bankruptcy?

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/...7170958444.txt

Or they could use the stores left to facilitate a rapid groupon type store. A place where you procur your discounts for everything. A place where you rent the downloaded book for your Kindle or Ipad for say- two weeks at a price much less than buying it. And it disappears from your pad memory two weeks later. And you sit in their nice chairs and read and talk. And they're all about the size of a small Walgreens.

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Originally Posted by szla

Or they could use the stores left to facilitate a rapid groupon type store. A place where you procur your discounts for everything. A place where you rent the downloaded book for your Kindle or Ipad for say- two weeks at a price much less than buying it. And it disappears from your pad memory two weeks later. And you sit in their nice chairs and read and talk. And they're all about the size of a small Walgreens.

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This is a pretty good idea. The price of the Kindle will continue to drop and Amazon will probably be giving them away in the near future. If you have the time, I would act on this

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

Check these out:
http://www.gutenberg.org/
http://www.scribd.com/
http://www.wepapers.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/texts/

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Great links - thanks for posting

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

I can put any PDF or MOBI on my Kindle I wish. Just upload it via USB. I can download PDFs from stores other than Amazon.

This leads me to believe you don't really understand how computers work. You can get *anything* on the internet, if you know how to find it. Bans, firewalls, domain seizures - it's all academic. There are ways around everything.

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That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

This isn't about being "modern" or "high tech" or "cost effective" or any other marketing bullshit--it's about the control of ideas, and you've bought into the Machine hook, line, and sinker. Censorship is something where there *is* no easy way around.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

This isn't about being "modern" or "high tech" or "cost effective" or any other marketing bullshit--it's about the control of ideas, and you've bought into the Machine hook, line, and sinker. Censorship is something where there *is* no easy way around.

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If someone relies on corporate media sources to get all of their news, music, reading material, etc. then they are a lost cause to begin with. Thanks to the internet you can publish and read whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

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Uh.... What?! You're seriously suggesting that being able to download any damn movie, book, song, etc that I want gives companies like Apple and Wal-Mart more control than if I had to buy those items on cd/DVD/paperback in an Apple or Wal-Mart store?

You have it completely backwards! If I turn in the radio, clear channel picks the music I hear. If I go to Wal-Mart, they [[along with record companies) choose the music I can buy. If I go online... Well then I can get anything I darn well please and I can get it for free. maybe you should read up on how well the MPAA and RIAA efforts to control online music/movie distribution are going. They are spending millions and millions of dollars and are failing miserably.

BookBeat in Oak Park has the kind of selection/atmosphere/knowledgable staff that Borders *used* to be known for.

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Originally Posted by rooms222

Wasn't GM forced to stay in Detroit during the bankruptcy?

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/...7170958444.txt

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I guess. But wasn't that more about a suburban mayor trying to lure them away?

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Originally Posted by detmsp

Uh.... What?! You're seriously suggesting that being able to download any damn movie, book, song, etc that I want gives companies like Apple and Wal-Mart more control than if I had to buy those items on cd/DVD/paperback in an Apple or Wal-Mart store?

You have it completely backwards! If I turn in the radio, clear channel picks the music I hear. If I go to Wal-Mart, they [[along with record companies) choose the music I can buy. If I go online... Well then I can get anything I darn well please and I can get it for free. maybe you should read up on how well the MPAA and RIAA efforts to control online music/movie distribution are going. They are spending millions and millions of dollars and are failing miserably.

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Sure, whatever you say. Remind me how long it took Apple to get the fucking BEATLES on iTunes?

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Sure, whatever you say. Remind me how long it took Apple to get the fucking BEATLES on iTunes?

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That completely makes no sense. It wasn't Apple stopping anyone from hearing the Beatles it was the entities that held the rights to the Beatles catalog. So basically the exact opposite of what you're claiming the problem is. I mean hell it had more to do with the Apple brands fighting out over copyrights than anything. But yea, I guess I could have gone to Borders in the interim and paid $32.00 for one CD...in 2008. Or, just download from a number of other sources...which, for those songs I wanted, I did.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Not sure what mall occupancy rates have to do with the price of tea in China... But yeah, I guess those thousands of people who work in that HQ.

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Point being, they're there by default and not design. They're there because they sunk an astronomical sum into being a real estate developer of a vanity project a small group of influential C-suite execs wanted, instead of concentrating on being a decent car maker. And clearly, they are there regardless of the desires of the thousands that work there as they can't seem to be bothered to stay or shop, or even eat in their own damn building.

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Originally Posted by bailey

Point being, they're there by default and not design. They're there because they sunk an astronomical sum into being a real estate developer of a vanity project a small group of influential C-suite execs wanted, instead of concentrating on being a decent car maker. And clearly, they are there regardless of the desires of the thousands that work there as they can't seem to be bothered to stay or shop, or even eat in their own damn building.

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Still don't see what this has to do with the ability of Detroit to host a corporate HQ.

But while we're on this tangent, if it's of any worth to you I work in an area that is surrounded by hundreds of stores that I never shop at. As soon as I'm done with work I usually leave my office building and never return until I'm scheduled to do more work. So not sure that the weight of the world should be placed on GM employees shoulders because some stores can't survive in the promenade of the Ren Cen. And the design flaws of the Ren Cen, and why it's an unattractive location for retail [[besides just being located in Detroit), has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Still don't see what this has to do with the ability of Detroit to host a corporate HQ.

But while we're on this tangent, if it's of any worth to you I work in an area that is surrounded by hundreds of stores that I never shop at. As soon as I'm done with work I usually leave my office building and never return until I'm scheduled to do more work. So not sure that the weight of the world should be placed on GM employees shoulders because some stores can't survive in the promenade of the Ren Cen. And the design flaws of the Ren Cen, and why it's an unattractive location for retail [[besides just being located in Detroit), has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

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Well, it goes back to Keilson's point. Is GM there because they can write their own ticket and simple inertia or because Detroit is such a draw for a corp HQ? Think a failing, soon to be completlely defunct and sold off for parts buggy whip seller will carry the same weight around CAYMC when they need a permit or a tax break or a street closed?

Further, isn't there more to hosting an HQ than simply providing tax breaks. The discussion was about the costs shifted to employees. And if you don't shop near your office, I'm betting you do actually live in the same city in which you work. I going to also guess you don't own a car.

As far as the rencen goes...fine... it's empty because it sucks as mall.... but what is lower woodward's excuse?

Actually, this is a serious question, is there any large business HQ'd in detroit that is there now because it makes business sense or is it there because they have a)been there since founding 50 yrs+ ago [[your GMs, BigLaws...etc) , or b) as some sort of public corporate philanthropy? [[Olympia, Ceasars, Compuware....etc.)

I just looked at the top employers in Detroit, DPS with 13,0000+ dwarfs the presences of the HQ of GM at 4500 ish. and chrysler of all things employes just as many in Detroit as GM. The top 20 employers in Detroit are almost exclusively public sector. DPs, CoD, various health systems, WSU, wayne county, BCBS..etc Hell, MGM grand claims almost as many employees at GM does.

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Originally Posted by bailey

Well, it goes back to Keilson's point. Is GM there because they can write their own ticket and simple inertia or because Detroit is such a draw for a corp HQ? Think a failing, soon to be completlely defunct and sold off for parts buggy whip seller will carry the same weight around CAYMC when they need a permit or a tax break or a street closed?

Further, isn't there more to hosting an HQ than simply providing tax breaks. The discussion was about the costs shifted to employees. And if you don't shop near your office, I'm betting you do actually live in the same city in which you work. I going to also guess you don't own a car.

As far as the rencen goes...fine... it's empty because it sucks as mall.... but what is lower woodward's excuse?

Actually, this is a serious question, is there any large business HQ'd in detroit that was there because it made business sense or is it there because they have a)been there since founding 50 yrs+ ago [[your GMs, BigLaws...etc) , or b) as some sort of public corporate philanthropy? [[Olympia, Ceasars, Compuware....etc.)

I just looked at the top employers in Detroit, DPS with 13,0000+ dwarfs the presences of the HQ of GM at 4500 ish. and chrysler of all things employes just as many in Detroit as GM. The top 20 employers in Detroit are almost exclusively public sector. DPs, CoD, various health systems, WSU, wayne county, BCBS..etc Hell, MGM grand claims almost as many employees at GM does.

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Well, my point was that Detroit can host a corporate HQ -- and already does host quite a few of them -- so that person's point about Detroit not being "ready for the big leagues" was not supported by reality. And on a personal note, I think Detroit would bend over backwards to have a nationally recognized name like Borders. [[They went through quite a bit of dancing just to get a Borders store put downtown.) If Borders does survive, having such a well known name operating from a Detroit address will be worth something. On name recognition alone, I'd guess that Borders would be worth more to the city than a Compuware or Quicken.

And I don't think what you call "corporate philanthropy" is as altruistic as you make it seem. First, those companies were lured back to the city by generous tax incentives. Second, some see value in being perceived as a trendsetter [[see Conde Nast and their reputation as the saviors of Times Square), or at the forefront of a generational change [[see all of the companies who followed Conde Nast to Times Square).

But let's make a distinction here: a company in the market for a suburban office complex is probably not considering a city like Detroit, or Boston, or Chicago. On the other hand, a company that is looking for a big city address is probably not considering Michigan period.

Also, most large companies are located where they are because of legacy. Once a company in any city matures past a certain point it can operate from pretty much anywhere. My personal ideology is that cities should act as the incubators to start and grow businesses and not try to play corporate Monopoly to build an economy by poaching companies from other cities and states. Historically entrepreneurial cities, like Detroit, that destroy the environments that once made them entrepreneurial havens tend to have trouble transitioning their economies once the dominant industry matures and the growth stagnates.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

This isn't about being "modern" or "high tech" or "cost effective" or any other marketing bullshit--it's about the control of ideas, and you've bought into the Machine hook, line, and sinker. Censorship is something where there *is* no easy way around.

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I can make a .pdf book myself and there are a lot of places where I could host the file for free, or I could buy my own hosting and host it myself. One person can make something, and anyone who's connected to the internet can download it.

But if I want to get something published as a physical book, then I need to submit my book to publishers, pray that they accept it [[which 99% of the time they don't), and then even if they do accept it, I have to sign a lot of contracts and stuff that limits my ownership or ability to do what I want with what I created. Then after I've won my battle with the publisher I have to hope that enough stores decide to carry the book, and then I have to hope that the general public [[the store goers) have interest in what I wrote.

Or I can make the book by myself on my computer, host it somewhere online, have complete ownership of it, and I can skip the corporate publishers and the corporate book stores. Not only that but I'll have potential exposure to all of the internet, which would make it easier to target my niche audience.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Sure, whatever you say. Remind me how long it took Apple to get the fucking BEATLES on iTunes?

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Didn't stop me and the rest of the world from downloading every beatles album years before it was on iTunes. I don't think you understand the way the Internet has democratized information. People can share literally ANY information they damn well please. For stores to be on par with the web, I'd have to be able to walk into a store and instantly be able to find any book, movie or albom on the face of the planet that I want. That simply is not the case.

The times they are a changin'... it's about time you embraced it.

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Originally Posted by Jason

I can make a .pdf book myself and there are a lot of places where I could host the file for free, or I could buy my own hosting and host it myself. One person can make something, and anyone who's connected to the internet can download it.

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Hosting the file is only one issue. If you want to make any money from your work, you also have to figure out a way for people to pay for it. That's still doable, but it does get more complicated.

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But if I want to get something published as a physical book, then I need to submit my book to publishers, pray that they accept it [[which 99% of the time they don't), and then even if they do accept it, I have to sign a lot of contracts and stuff that limits my ownership or ability to do what I want with what I created. Then after I've won my battle with the publisher I have to hope that enough stores decide to carry the book, and then I have to hope that the general public [[the store goers) have interest in what I wrote.

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First, life is filled with compromises. Publishing is no different in that regard.

Second, as someone who has signed one of those contracts, the restrictions are not that ownerous. The publisher generally only buys the rights to publish the book for a certain number of years. At the end of that contract, the author is free to publish the book elsewhere.

Sometimes they buy domestic rights only, leaving the author free to pursue international sales independantly. Other times, they buy worlwide rights.

Other non-publishing rights to a book [[e.g., film and television books) are generally not included in a publishing contract.

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Or I can make the book by myself on my computer, host it somewhere online, have complete ownership of it, and I can skip the corporate publishers and the corporate book stores. Not only that but I'll have potential exposure to all of the internet, which would make it easier to target my niche audience.

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Been there. Done that.

There are two challenges to such a strategy.

First, in a world where everyone is published, the market is quickly overwhelmed. With the internet, where books written more than 100 years ago are available for free, the competition for buyers is that much more intense and the options can become that much more overwhelming for readers.

Second, if I as an author am out there reaching out to my target niche all day long then I'm not writing my next book. Authors need to write. The more time we're out there peddling our creations, the less time we have to do the thing we're best at.

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Originally Posted by detmsp

Didn't stop me and the rest of the world from downloading every beatles album years before it was on iTunes. I don't think you understand the way the Internet has democratized information. People can share literally ANY information they damn well please. For stores to be on par with the web, I'd have to be able to walk into a store and instantly be able to find any book, movie or albom on the face of the planet that I want. That simply is not the case.

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First, when the sharing of any information [[books, songs, videos, etc.) happens without any restrictions, it has another name to it. It's called piracy. The people who created those books, songs, and videos can't continue to create when it flows that freely.

Second, in order for physical stores to compare with mainstream on-line retailers [[Amazon.com and the others), it would be a matter of you being able to walk into a store, instantly place your order, and then wait anywhere from 1 - 5 days for your book to be delivered. Unless, of course, you want to download it onto a pre-approved device, in which case you get the immediate download.

Electronic files, however, cannot be autographed by an author and it's doubtful that they could be passed from generation to the next.

Borders HQ could move into that mirrored panelled building that sits in front of the guardian building on the Woodward side. 1001 Woodward would also be a nice place for it with a bookstore in the foyer area.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

First, when the sharing of any information [[books, songs, videos, etc.) happens without any restrictions, it has another name to it. It's called piracy. The people who created those books, songs, and videos can't continue to create when it flows that freely.

Second, in order for physical stores to compare with mainstream on-line retailers [[Amazon.com and the others), it would be a matter of you being able to walk into a store, instantly place your order, and then wait anywhere from 1 - 5 days for your book to be delivered. Unless, of course, you want to download it onto a pre-approved device, in which case you get the immediate download.

Electronic files, however, cannot be autographed by an author and it's doubtful that they could be passed from generation to the next.

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That all may be true, but my post was in response to the assertion that the Internet and devices like iPads limit access to media and increase the ability of corporations to censor media. I think we can both agree that that simply isn't the case.

The answer to your question provides the illogical reason for this thread.

Borders will go the way of Harmony House, Musicland and other music stores.
Because of technogical evolution, Bookstores will no longer be needed. This is why Borders are presently closing stores.

Just like the horse and carriage was eliminated by the advent and popularity of the automobile, so will bookstores as more and more people buy e-books which are much more cheaper.

Borders is just preparing to close all of its stores and to capitalize on the sales of the Ann Arbor building and a building in Downtown Detroit before it finally goes under.

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Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

The answer to your question provides the illogical reason for this thread.

Borders will go the way of Harmony House, Musicland and other music stores.
Because of technogical evolution, Bookstores will no longer be needed. This is why Borders are presently closing stores.

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First, one could make a similar statement about any retail store. Any physical store can potentially be replaced by an on-line counterpart.

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Just like the horse and carriage was eliminated by the advent and popularity of the automobile, so will bookstores as more and more people buy e-books which are much more cheaper.

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Maybe eBooks will replace traditional publishing, but I doubt it. As of today, there are still far more paper books sold in the world than eBooks. It's possible that will change but, again, I doubt it.

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Borders is just preparing to close all of its stores and to capitalize on the sales of the Ann Arbor building and a building in Downtown Detroit before it finally goes under.

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No, Borders is preparing to close some of of its stores. There's a big difference between some and all. The majority of them, however, will remain open.

Borders may want to keep the majority of its stores open, but I doubt they will be able to do so for long.

See for instance this story from Wednesday:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/bu...ders.html?_r=1

An excerpt:

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Borders presented a restructuring plan to its creditors on Wednesday that promised publishers and landlords a sleeker, more efficient company poised to emerge successfully from bankruptcy through increased online sales and revamped stores.

But publishers characterized the plan as unrealistic and said they were more convinced than ever that Borders would be forced to sell itself or liquidate.

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If the publishers don't believe the plan will work, they won't ship books to Borders [[except for cash, but the economics of that aren't too promising when their competitors are getting credit from the publishers), and that will be the end.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

First, one could make a similar statement about any retail store. Any physical store can potentially be replaced by an on-line counterpart.

Maybe eBooks will replace traditional publishing, but I doubt it. As of today, there are still far more paper books sold in the world than eBooks. It's possible that will change but, again, I doubt it.

No, Borders is preparing to close some of of its stores. There's a big difference between some and all. The majority of them, however, will remain open.

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Ebooks will replace traditional publishing, there is absolutely no doubt about that. Book stores won't completely disappear, but they will have to evolve and offer more than simply a place to buy the latest New York Times bestseller. They'll need to provide an experience, not just books. Thats why a place like King will stay in business but Walden Books is already gone

Tuesday's Dearborn Press & Guide had a line that Border's was planning on relocating to downtown Detroit.

In February, the Ann Arbor-based Borders Group, Inc. — which announced plans on relocating its headquarters to downtown Detroit earlier this month — filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The 40-year-old book-seller has $1.275 billion in assets and $1.293 billion in debts. Further, it has lost $605 million in the last four fiscal years.

Does anyone have any insider information in the past few days that a downtown Detroit move is in fact true [[as opposed to just shopping for space) or is this just sloppy journalism?

http://www.pressandguide.com/article...2553885817.txt

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Originally Posted by belleislerunner

Tuesday's Dearborn Press & Guide had a line that Border's was planning on relocating to downtown Detroit.

In February, the Ann Arbor-based Borders Group, Inc. — which announced plans on relocating its headquarters to downtown Detroit earlier this month — filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The 40-year-old book-seller has $1.275 billion in assets and $1.293 billion in debts. Further, it has lost $605 million in the last four fiscal years.

Does anyone have any insider information in the past few days that a downtown Detroit move is in fact true [[as opposed to just shopping for space) or is this just sloppy journalism?

http://www.pressandguide.com/article...2553885817.txt

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Looks like sloppy reporting to me.