Snyder tells young people: Forget Chicago, be part of changing Detroit

By: Kathleen Gray

Gov. Rick Snyder has nothing against the Windy City.

But when people ask him why young people should move to Detroit, he has a simple answer.

"Do you want to be another yuppie in Chicago, or do you want to make a difference in Detroit?" he told the Free Press on Wednesday.

Young people these days, he said, want to make a difference, be part of a renaissance or a success story. And Detroit offers opportunities galore.

"What better place to come than this community," Snyder said. "To say you're on the ground floor of helping bring back a wonderful urban environment, to be part of a success story. ... No disrespect to Chicago, but they've got lots of young people, and you're just going to blend in and just be another person there."

As for venture capitalists, he tells them that Detroit is a perfect place to practice value investing. He cites the city's abundant stock of cheap, vacant land, its portfolio of human talent eager to land a job and the opportunity for investors to diversify their portfolios.

"We have a lot of unemployment and underemployment and very talented people," Snyder said. "And the biggest driver of long-term economic growth in terms of where people will go is talent. That will drive more behavior than any other single feature."

http://www.freep.com/article/2011120...anging-Detroit

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Wow. Duplicate threads started at exactly the same time.

What are the odds?

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Very common.

I watched this video already, I like what our gov. actually had to say.

He's YOUR Governor.

Chicago's overrated, no doubt in my mind ........ but even for those who agree, can Detroit even compete with the likes of Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Indy, or Cincinnati [[Upper Midwest cities that are all increasingly appealing to young professionals)? I see very little reason to say "yes."

...reliable regional mass transit is a must, as is public safety... scattershot city services, ongoing municipal squabbling don't help..

Count me as one of the yuppies that has disappeared into the mass. Hey I love Detroit and Michigan. But I can live my life here in Chicago without any sort of conflict or worry. If a problem arrises, I can call the city and they handle it. The functionality of the Chicago city government is astonishing.

I came here for a job, because I was broke and needed one fast. It's top tier global city and there were plenty of people from college I knew would be joining me. I had plenty of safe and vibrant neighborhoods to choose from and a transit system to get anywhere I wanted to go. Rents are affordable for a big city and there are endless recreational opportunities, free zoos and art museums.

Someday I do want to move back to Michigan, but I realize I will be sacrificing an incredible amount of lifestyle conveniences. I hope Snyder realizes the uphill battle he and his citizens face.

I've always said Detroit should never try to be a Chicago. It needs to offer something different to attract more residents. However, it does need better regionalism like Chicago, a more functional government, more mass transit options, and a better police department. Things that will have a direct effect on someone's willingness to start a business or move into the city.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Count me as one of the yuppies that has disappeared into the mass. Hey I love Detroit and Michigan. But I can live my life here in Chicago without any sort of conflict or worry. If a problem arrises, I can call the city and they handle it. The functionality of the Chicago city government is astonishing.

I came here for a job, because I was broke and needed one fast. It's top tier global city and there were plenty of people from college I knew would be joining me. I had plenty of safe and vibrant neighborhoods to choose from and a transit system to get anywhere I wanted to go. Rents are affordable for a big city and there are endless recreational opportunities, free zoos and art museums.

Someday I do want to move back to Michigan, but I realize I will be sacrificing an incredible amount of lifestyle conveniences. I hope Snyder realizes the uphill battle he and his citizens face.

I've always said Detroit should never try to be a Chicago. It needs to offer something different to attract more residents. However, it does need better regionalism like Chicago, a more functional government, more mass transit options, and a better police department. Things that will have a direct effect on someone's willingness to start a business or move into the city.

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And do you feel like you are blending in too much or do you still feel like an individual? Honestly, Snyder should fish around for new arguments in the belated effort to recruit or keep its citizens. As you mention wolverine, regional support and transit vision are a key component to rehabbing Michigan's status. That should be governor Snyder's plateful right there.

Actually it is Bing and other leaders in Detroit who should be trying to attract people to move to Detroit.

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Originally Posted by MrNittany

Chicago's overrated, no doubt in my mind ........ but even for those who agree, can Detroit even compete with the likes of Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Indy, or Cincinnati [[Upper Midwest cities that are all increasingly appealing to young professionals)? I see very little reason to say "yes."

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I would prefer Detroit to any of those cities. I'd prefer Chicago to Detroit.

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Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

our adored Governor.

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Meh, I guess everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

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Originally Posted by canuck

And do you feel like you are blending in too much or do you still feel like an individual? Honestly, Snyder should fish around for new arguments in the belated effort to recruit or keep its citizens. As you mention wolverine, regional support and transit vision are a key component to rehabbing Michigan's status. That should be governor Snyder's plateful right there.

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Blending isn't necessarily bad. Certainly there is more competition in bigger cities to stand out. But employment [[at least professionally), good friends, and a nice neighborhood are all you need to be happy.

What's important is the city [[as in city services) treats and respects you as an individual. When I report a problem, I can expect the city to come out same day and fix it, and later send a letter and photo explaining and confirming the work was done. Fast and effective response and solutions are what every individual...business owner and resident should receive from their city.

His heart is in the right place. But what is he gonna do to keep them there?

That, though, isn't what is most flawed about his apparent train of thought. Chicago's strategy isn't focused on retaining native Chicagoans. Cities like Chicago are compete globally to attract residents. If the governor doesn't understand that then... Michigan doesn't stand a chance against Chicago.

IMO Chicago is vastly overrated. I don't understand the appeal.

If you want to stay in the U.S. and live in a first tier global city, NYC is the only real choice.

SF and DC are also much better choices for urbanites than Chicago. I would probably put Boston and Philly ahead of Chicago too, if we're talking strictly urban experience.

That said, Detroit just doesn't offer a lot right now for city types. It may one day though, and it would be exciting to be part of the process.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

His heart is in the right place. But what is he gonna do to keep them there?

That, though, isn't what is most flawed about his apparent train of thought. Chicago's strategy isn't focused on retaining native Chicagoans. Cities like Chicago are compete globally to attract residents. If the governor doesn't understand that then... Michigan doesn't stand a chance against Chicago.

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iheartthed,

You hit the head on the nail. Chicago, San Fran, NYC, LA, D.C. and Boston are global cities and the're catering to the international masses. Not the natives. It's unfortunate but it's true. If you can afford to stay and enjoy everything these cities have to offer then that's a bonus for you. I have a good friend who grew up in NYC and now that he, his family and friends have all left over the years, he CANNOT even afford to visit the city that he grew up in. He's scared and depressed that he's lost a big part of who he is. He's depressed because he cannot live in the area that is really "who he is."

Maybe this is a good thing about Detroit. But sadly, most of the people and businesses that I remember who made Detroit "Detroit" have left too. Even Detroit is a new city.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

IMO Chicago is vastly overrated. I don't understand the appeal.

If you want to stay in the U.S. and live in a first tier global city, NYC is the only real choice.

SF and DC are also much better choices for urbanites than Chicago. I would probably put Boston and Philly ahead of Chicago too, if we're talking strictly urban experience.

That said, Detroit just doesn't offer a lot right now for city types. It may one day though, and it would be exciting to be part of the process.

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I agree that NYC is the only true global city in the U.S., but that's probably something you can only truly understand after you have lived here. I think Michiganders tend to inflate Chicago's stature a little, but I don't think it's overrated from a national perspective.

I'd rate Philly and Chicago about equal for an urban experience, but Chicago has a lot more going on right now [[and probably more future potential too). I'm not a fan of Boston... I'd choose Chicago over Boston without much hesitation. Chicago competes well against Washington on scale, but loses badly to it on diversity, IMO.

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Originally Posted by illwill

iheartthed,

You hit the head on the nail. Chicago, San Fran, NYC, LA, D.C. and Boston are global cities and the're catering to the international masses. Not the natives. It's unfortunate but it's true. If you can afford to stay and enjoy everything these cities have to offer then that's a bonus for you. I have a good friend who grew up in NYC and now that he, his family and friends have all left over the years, he CANNOT even afford to visit the city that he grew up in. He's scared and depressed that he's lost a big part of who he is. He's depressed because he cannot live in the area that is really "who he is."

Maybe this is a good thing about Detroit. But sadly, most of the people and businesses that I remember who made Detroit "Detroit" have left too. Even Detroit is a new city.

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Yeah, it's not as easy as you'd think to find a native New Yorker in living New York. It's much easier to find a native Detroiter in Detroit.

There was a time not long ago when Detroit was in the same caliber of city as those you listed, but today it's far too insular to compete. It's probably the first modern American metropolis to transition from top tier to second tier American metropolitan area.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I agree that NYC is the only true global city in the U.S., but that's probably something you can only truly understand after you have lived here. I think Michiganders tend to inflate Chicago's stature a little, but I don't think it's overrated from a national perspective..

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I basically agree with this.

I meant Chicago's stature within Michigan and the immediate Midwest. I don't think Chicago is overrated from a national perspective [[it often isn't part of the conversation on the East and West Coasts), but, from a Michigan perspective, it seems to be wildly overrated by some, IMO.

Great downtown and some really nice urban neighborhoods, but absolutely nothing compared to NYC. Comparing Chicago to NYC is like comparing Detroit to Chicago. Maybe worse.

And Illinois is really, really weak when it comes to natural beauty and nearby attractions. At least Michigan is a beautiful state.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'd rate Philly and Chicago about equal for an urban experience, but Chicago has a lot more going on right now [[and probably more future potential too). I'm not a fan of Boston... I'd choose Chicago over Boston without much hesitation. Chicago competes well against Washington on scale, but loses badly to it on diversity, IMO.

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I'm not a huge Boston fan either, but I think it has a really good urban fabric, and is somewhat more cosmopolitan than Chicago. DC has made some serious urban strides, and is very international. A bit too single industry for my tastes, though. You're right that Philly is somewhat limited in its potential, maybe because it's within the NYC oribit.

Personally, if I had to pick a #2 city for urban living in the U.S., I would choose SF. It's a bit ahead of Chicago, DC, Boston and Philly.

Stay in the city for the vast tracts of empty land and unemployment. That's his pitch? Whatever happened to leadership? Snyder should be presenting his vision for the future. As others have stated, it starts with transit and public safety but it should be so much more. It's almost as bad as listening to the presidential candidates.

I think Snyder has a point, but Detroit has to make its own way, and it really will require changing a lot of how the state is structured, regarding laws, home rule, etc.

I lived in DC for a few years before moving back, and it is an interesting city but seems fractured, with MD and NOVA, even though DC is all on the MD side I know. DC seems like a much smaller place than Chicago, obviously without the skyscrapers. Chicago strikes me as a Houston north, sprawl in all directions from the coast.

It's been said here before, but I wonder how Detroit would be today if it was able to grow like Toronto. Maybe that's a subject for another thread though. Still I am hopeful that maybe now Detroit will be reborn again [[ok, it's a sappy Phoenix analogy, I admit).

I just got back from a weekend in Montreal, had a very good time. I enjoyed counting all the cars with snow tires - it's the law there. Interesting - I doubt that would fly here.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

IMO Chicago is vastly overrated. I don't understand the appeal.

If you want to stay in the U.S. and live in a first tier global city, NYC is the only real choice.

SF and DC are also much better choices for urbanites than Chicago. I would probably put Boston and Philly ahead of Chicago too, if we're talking strictly urban experience.

That said, Detroit just doesn't offer a lot right now for city types. It may one day though, and it would be exciting to be part of the process.

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I'm in Chicago right now visiting. It is vastly overated, you are right. I don't see the appeal of this city especially over Detroit. Chicago lacks the unique retail options that Detroit has. It lacks the coolness factor and convenience of the People Mover and lacks the vibrancy of Detroit. Where is the Midtown here? Nothing in Chicago comes close. I have checked out the neighborhoods in Chicago and yawn, give me Corktown or Midtown anyday. Shopping? The Somerset Collection blows away anything in Chicago. Downtown Chicago is a TGIF and that is basically it along with boring empty chain stores. Chicago has nothing on riding a DDOT bus down Woodward with the packed frequent service and the excitment of entering a downtown. I just don't see the appeal of Chicago. Theatre Distracit? Nothing in Chicago compares to ours. Fox Theatre doesn't exist here not even close. Chicago is bland, empty, dangerous, dull and rundown. Way overated. Chicago is a big Toledo. Give me Detroit anyday. People have been fooled about Chicago like a Hollywood movie.

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Originally Posted by timmy43

I'm in Chicago right now visiting. It is vastly overated, you are right. I don't see the appeal of this city especially over Detroit. Chicago lacks the unique retail options that Detroit has. It lacks the coolness factor and convenience of the People Mover and lacks the vibrancy of Detroit. Where is the Midtown here? Nothing in Chicago comes close. I have checked out the neighborhoods in Chicago and yawn, give me Corktown or Midtown anyday. Shopping? The Somerset Collection blows away anything in Chicago. Downtown Chicago is a TGIF and that is basically it along with boring empty chain stores. Chicago has nothing on riding a DDOT bus down Woodward with the packed frequent service and the excitment of entering a downtown. I just don't see the appeal of Chicago. Theatre Distracit? Nothing in Chicago compares to ours. Fox Theatre doesn't exist here not even close. Chicago is bland, empty, dangerous, dull and rundown. Way overated. Chicago is a big Toledo. Give me Detroit anyday. People have been fooled about Chicago like a Hollywood movie.

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What the hell, dude? You motivated me to register just to try and set you straight.

Convenience of the People Mover? Chicago is the only other U.S. city with an elevated train system around its downtown, and unlike the People Mover you can get to other parts of the city.

Chicago's Midtown? Hyde Park, which is anchored by the most prestigious university in the Midwest. As well, the Museum Campus has an even more impressive cluster of museums.

What neighborhoods did you check out? Chicago has probably the best urban neighborhoods in the Midwest, with the likes of Old Town, Ravenswood, the West Loop, Printer's Row, Chinatown, the Gold Coast, I can go on and on.

Shopping? Did you even see any part of Michigan Avenue and its side streets?

The Woodward bus? No, the buses down Milwaukee or Lincoln or Madison or South Michigan or Lake Shore Drive, or the Brown or Red or Green or Blue El lines do not compare at all to that "efficient, breath taking view."

Theatre district? Hint: State and Lake. Not to mention another cluster in Lincoln Park.

Bland, empty, dangerous, dull, and rundown? Sure, down on 63rd Street, but sure as hell not downtown.

A big Toledo? Oh man, you must be trolling. That is like calling New York a big Syracuse.

In short, Chicago is the urban heart of the Midwest. I take pride in all Midwestern cities, and desperately want Detroit to rise, but taking low potshots at the most urban, bustling city between the coasts sure won't help your case, or your city.

I don't think Chicago is overrated. I think Chicago is a top tier, alpha city of the world. I'm choosing Detroit because I want to be a part of building something big rather than joining something big.

Not everyone here feels that way, but that was the impetus for me.

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Originally Posted by ProudMidwesterner

What the hell, dude? You motivated me to register just to try and set you straight.

Convenience of the People Mover? Chicago is the only other U.S. city with an elevated train system around its downtown, and unlike the People Mover you can get to other parts of the city.

Chicago's Midtown? Hyde Park, which is anchored by the most prestigious university in the Midwest. As well, the Museum Campus has an even more impressive cluster of museums.

What neighborhoods did you check out? Chicago has probably the best urban neighborhoods in the Midwest, with the likes of Old Town, Ravenswood, the West Loop, Printer's Row, Chinatown, the Gold Coast, I can go on and on.

Shopping? Did you even see any part of Michigan Avenue and its side streets?

The Woodward bus? No, the buses down Milwaukee or Lincoln or Madison or South Michigan or Lake Shore Drive, or the Brown or Red or Green or Blue El lines do not compare at all to that "efficient, breath taking view."

Theatre district? Hint: State and Lake. Not to mention another cluster in Lincoln Park.

Bland, empty, dangerous, dull, and rundown? Sure, down on 63rd Street, but sure as hell not downtown.

A big Toledo? Oh man, you must be trolling. That is like calling New York a big Syracuse.

In short, Chicago is the urban heart of the Midwest. I take pride in all Midwestern cities, and desperately want Detroit to rise, but taking low potshots at the most urban, bustling city between the coasts sure won't help your case, or your city.

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I could be wrong, but I sense an extraordinary amount of sarcasm coming from timmy43's post.

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Originally Posted by begingri

I could be wrong, but I sense an extraordinary amount of sarcasm coming from timmy43's post.

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After re-reading his post carefully, you may be right.

If this is true, then that was definitely a great first post from timmy43.

I'd leave NY out of it. NY is the U.S.'s global city, home [[or second home) to the people who make the decisions about whether the rest of us have jobs or not.

Of the rest, from what I've seen, in terms of having an urban residential experience [[dense downtown, residential neighborhoods with restaurants, bars and groceries in walking distance), I'd call Chicago and SF tops, followed by [[in no particular order) Boston, Philly, Pittsburgh, Seattle, and Portland.

IMHO, one problem Detroit had from the start [[thinking about the 20's here) was that none of the three largest companies here had headquarters in downtown. Ford was in Dearborn, Chrysler in Highland Park, and GM was in New Center. As a result, Detroit never had the downtown it should have had.

Snyder's got a point, but only if some of the young people who stay in Detroit can come up with the Next Big Thing, and once they've done that still want to stay here and not move on to a better climate/scenery.

More words from the governor. He speaks beautifully and many times pitifully of Detroit, yet his actions as governor paint a really different picture of what type of committment he has to the city.

Snyder has some of the best rhetoric concerning the revitalization of Michigan cities, in general, that we've seen in many administrations, Democratic or Republican. It's why I kind of had some hope for him, at least when it came to urban issues. But, it's turned out to be just that: rhetoric. Let me clear, you follow his actual policy positions, and there is not a successful Rustbelt city out there that would be successful under his policies. You could not building a Pittsburgh renaissance on top of Snyder's policy positions. You are not going to rebuild Detroit or any other city in this state by robbing from the poor, the elderly and students; you're not going to rebuild Detroit with gussied-up, trickle-down Reagonomics. nah gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by MrNittany

Chicago's overrated, no doubt in my mind ........ but even for those who agree, can Detroit even compete with the likes of Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Indy, or Cincinnati [[Upper Midwest cities that are all increasingly appealing to young professionals)? I see very little reason to say "yes."

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aren't we rated higher than all of those cities? http://www.city-data.com/forum/north...-rankings.html

The editorial in the Freep today pretty much nails it:

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Most noteworthy, and laudable, is Snyder's embrace of far more open immigration policies, designed to lure highly skilled foreigners here and retain foreign students who graduate from state universities with advanced technological and scientific degrees. In a globally competitive world, it hardly makes sense to re-export that knowledge base. Snyder describes his dream as the equivalent of stapling a green card to every foreign student's diploma.

If any state can make an individual case for a far more open immigration policy, it's Michigan. Even as population declines, the higher education system remains relatively strong and attractive to students from afar. Students from other countries who would like to stay here offer an incredibly high-value opportunity to help stabilize the population.

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I was gonna write about this in my first response on this thread but decided not to. I went to Michigan and met tons of people there from across the country and across the globe. Many of those students spend 4 years or more in Ann Arbor without ever traveling east of Metro airport. They are more likely to have visited Chicago or New York as students than Detroit. And nearly 100% of them will bolt out of the state once they're done with school, most hoping to land in one of the big U.S. cities.

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But lobbying for such a change, either nationally or as a Michigan exemption, would require unified support from the state's congressional delegation, a broad-minded Congress and a welcoming attitude from everyone throughout Michigan.

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In a state where 76.6% of residents were born here [[the second highest percentage after Louisiana), that welcome is not always forthcoming.

In this self-contained state, Michigan often tends to overlook what's happening outside its borders.

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http://www.freep.com/article/2011120...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

The following link is for PUMP, which is Pittsburgh Urban Magnet Program. Which is a great program at keeping the "youth" in Pittsburgh.

http://www.pump.org/

Does Metro Detroit have anything similar? At one point there was the "Cool City" list, but other then saying that you live in a cool city, what did they offer?

PUMP has a great Sports Program, which is lacking in Metro Detroit in my opinion. I know there where quite a few city run leagues, but most of those are having a hard time keeping funding.

PUMP Social Networking is also very involved.

It is pretty awesome seeing all the "youth" get together and share heir great ideas.

NY, Chicago, D.C., Boston etc...these cities have the jobs, higher paying jobs and they're currently more livable than Detroit. Most importantly, they CATER to the young and successful. These college grads are not experiencing the hard aches that we hear about in Chicago or New York. Or what we experience on a daily basis living in Detroit. They live in nice clean, low crime, walkable neighborhoods. Lots of retail, bars, funky boutiques and ALL of their college friends are there too. These people already have a built-in support system when they move to Chicago and New York. They've been traveling to Chicago since they were a freshman in College and they're automatically expected to move there after graduation to be a part of the scene, along with their friends. Chicago is a hotbed for East Coast Grads as well. It's known as an affordable and exciting place to live. Best summer city in America.

And to touch on Snyders comments again...the young artist and creative type [[who may not be college educated) already have a built in market to sell their crafts to. A huge population of young, old, successful and wealthy people who are seeking the next hot artist, product, neighborhood or whatever to invest in. So in Chicago you can be a part of a "growing something" despite what Gov. Snyder said.


I work in R.E relocation and I personally feel like 85% of all Michigan State grads move to Chicago...if not higher. Chicago has also surpassed New York for having the highest number of University of Michigan Graduates. This is amazing when Detroit is right down the street. And the sad part is many of these people convert once they move to another city. These people turn into Cubs fans, they marry their girlfriends/boyfriends and end up settling down in the city or a Chicago suburb. Rarely do they return back to Michigan at that point.


I understand Snyders comment and I think it was very fair and necessary.. And yes, like someone mentioned above, that's Bings Job as well. Mayor Rahm Emanuel of Chicago, PERSONALLY created something called college week. He host high school students mostly from all over the Midwest to spend a summer week living in Chicago, hoping they'll choose one of Chicago's universities. He'll be expanding this experience to students through out the rest of the country as well. Chicago is grooming future talent. Again, I appreciate Snyders comments, but in today's MICROWAVE WORLD, talented and successful youngsters prefer a ready made playground. Through the hard work of the Detroiter's making changes today, Detroit will have it's turn tomorrow. I assure you!

Snyder is spot on! Chicago is nothing if not a city of Yuppies. Great idea for a bumper sticker/ad campaign: DON'T BECOME ANOTHER CHICAGO YUPPIE!

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Originally Posted by begingri

I could be wrong, but I sense an extraordinary amount of sarcasm coming from timmy43's post.

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Ah, I think you're right. My sarcasm detector on the Internet is not very well calibrated, so if that's the case, I apologize for going mother grizzly above.

To get on topic, are there any further plans for a coordinated effort, like Mayor Emanuel's College Week, to bring out-of-staters to Metro Detroit? After areas of Chicago and parts of the Twin Cities, Midtown Detroit is one of the top urban Midwest neighborhoods in my opinion, and most of the suburbs, for all the divisive politics, have some of the highest standards of living in the country [[and are more affordable and less hectic than Chicago's neverending sprawl). Governor Snyder's ideas are a good first step though, and I like the idea of the Simply Michigan commercials that I see from time to time, even out here in Iowa.

[[If I had the money, I'd set up some sort of organization aimed at attracting businesses and residents to the Great Lakes region, but alas, I'm just an urbanist college student.)

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Originally Posted by MrNittany

Chicago's overrated, no doubt in my mind ........ but even for those who agree, can Detroit even compete with the likes of Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Indy, or Cincinnati [[Upper Midwest cities that are all increasingly appealing to young professionals)? I see very little reason to say "yes."

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All those cities had their lows and pulled themselves up. Detroit can and is doing so too.

I like Chicago a lot and if I didn't like Detroit, all Detroit-Windsor, so much I would probably live there. What a great city.

My business can be done anywhere; I choose to do it here and have my business here. Why? I find the challenges here invigorating. All the cities above are defined, their power structures stable and locked-in. Detroit is like a pack of cards flipped in the air. We are undefined, our power structures are in flux and open. Our generation[s] has a unique opportunity to re-define what we are and what we can be.

I have often said that for many Detroit is lacking, even threatening, but for artists, planners, and thinkers, it is difficult to find a more exciting environment. If you thrive on challenge this is your town. If you don't and just want everything nice and perfect, then follow your heart, the other cities are for you.

So I think the governor is correct on this one - maybe it is the old Peace Corps volunteer in me. I would just like so see him followup by making the revitalization of our older core cities not just a sermon, but a passion. For starters, I would like see him support simply making those distressed areas as cheap to live in, in terms of insurance and taxation, as their surrounding metropolitan communities. I think a lot of people, young and old, would respond to that and endure the crime, beggary and lesser services if they weren't also financially penalized.

Snyder is spot on! Chicago is nothing if not a city of Yuppies. Great idea for a bumper sticker: DON'T BECOME ANOTHER CHICAGO YUPPIE!

Hi, folks! It's me, Gov. Snyder:

I really want people to know that I'd love to see Detroit succeed. Really! I've traveled around the country and seen the way that traditional downtowns get gentrified. You guys in the suburbs might not realize this, but it's a bonanza! You can make a lot of money by getting well-educated artists to move in, followed by the professional classes. That way, we could stanch the flow of young professionals to other states that actually invest in their cities.

The only problem is, I am a Lansing Republican, working with a Republican legislature. And, frankly, as we well know, outstate Republicans' attitudes on majority-black cities are not very nuanced. They range from "nuke the hellhole" to "can't we turn them into prisons?"

And so, hamstrung by outstate yahoos, bound by an anti-Detroit constitution that enshrines home rule, my hands tied by a statewide constituency that would rather scream and yowl and fight than see a penny of their taxes go to anybody darker than a paper bag, I am going to have to do what I can.

I will pay lip service to the city of Detroit. I will make a plea that you do not leave for Los Angeles, Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Houston or New York. I will tell you that I value urban environments as a way to retain skilled young professionals.

The only thing is, I simply cannot dedicate any funding or real political change to advance that agenda. Sorry. In fact, I will have to cut your revenue sharing so I can give money to the state's billionaires, then try to do a political balancing act while I send a czar in to take away your well-intentioned democracy and eviscerate the last unions in a traditional labor town.

I wish I could do more. Maybe I can. If, for instance, Detroit were to suddenly turn into a city with an ethnic Dutch, German or Finnish majority, then perhaps we could convince outstaters to offer change and funding. But until steps like these are taken, I am afraid I can offer little more than words.

But I do hope you like them!

Very sincerely,

Gov. Snyder

Did Snyder mention that if you're not straight, state government considers you a second-class citizen in Michigan?

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Originally Posted by Novine

Did Snyder mention that if you're not straight, state government considers you a second-class citizen in Michigan?

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No, that must have completely slipped his mind..weird how that happens.

Although, it's not like Chicago is THAT much better on the whole basic equality issue. Illinois only got civil unions ...which, I suppose, is better than nothing at all... last year.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

All those cities had their lows and pulled themselves up. Detroit can and is doing so too.

I like Chicago a lot and if I didn't like Detroit, all Detroit-Windsor, so much I would probably live there. What a great city.

My business can be done anywhere; I choose to do it here and have my business here. Why? I find the challenges here invigorating. All the cities above are defined, their power structures stable and locked-in. Detroit is like a pack of cards flipped in the air. We are undefined, our power structures are in flux and open. Our generation[s] has a unique opportunity to re-define what we are and what we can be.

I have often said that for many Detroit is lacking, even threatening, but for artists, planners, and thinkers, it is difficult to find a more exciting environment. If you thrive on challenge this is your town. If you don't and just want everything nice and perfect, then follow your heart, the other cities are for you.

So I think the governor is correct on this one - maybe it is the old Peace Corps volunteer in me. I would just like so see him followup by making the revitalization of our older core cities not just a sermon, but a passion. For starters, I would like see him support simply making those distressed areas as cheap to live in, in terms of insurance and taxation, as their surrounding metropolitan communities. I think a lot of people, young and old, would respond to that and endure the crime, beggary and lesser services if they weren't also financially penalized.

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You hit it on the head Lowell. If we see some passion in projects that will rehabilitate Detroit's vitality because yes, it was once very active in all its parts, then the planners could get their field day. A major prescription from Snyder in my opinion would be to summon all regional leaders and sweeten their bitter pill by announcing a law that would create a metro government in a year's time.

A second prescription would entail the creation of regional boards for transit and education and civic services in need of consolidation.

Just a basic reshuffling of the power structure which as you say is undefined, and therefore prolongs the uncertainty in all the region would then give it a new agenda; a metropolitan agenda as it were. Short of these basic stuctural shanges, I dont know if any viable future can be gained for Detroit proper, and in extenso; any real powerhouse potential for the satellite cities.

I think Snyder will best promote Michigan by saving the metropolis; the major economic engine for the state.

^ He can save the metropolis with Jobs.

While Illinois and Chicago share the national average in unemployment, the picture is much brighter for professional jobs. Students need a guarantee that they can join the work force right after graduation. For awhile there were many articles on how grads chose interesting places first over jobs. I think it's just employment as first priority now. Detroit needs to compete. More jobs more residents, more ancillary development.

Its as if Snyder is trying to sell a defective car that will take a lot of fixing. Cut the rhetoric and start doing. Build a transit system, construct more business incubutators, keep the street lights on at least

Most important, stop focusing on retaining residents. Most of my friends involved in planning organizations in Michigan are from the East and West coast. They bring fresh ideas and perspectives to the table. Chicago benefits from attracting international companies that create thousands of job openings each year and bring in more residents from out of state

Quote:

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Originally Posted by illwill

NY, Chicago, D.C., Boston etc...these cities have the jobs, higher paying jobs and they're currently more livable than Detroit. Most importantly, they CATER to the young and successful. These college grads are not experiencing the hard aches that we hear about in Chicago or New York. Or what we experience on a daily basis living in Detroit. They live in nice clean, low crime, walkable neighborhoods. Lots of retail, bars, funky boutiques and ALL of their college friends are there too. These people already have a built-in support system when they move to Chicago and New York. They've been traveling to Chicago since they were a freshman in College and they're automatically expected to move there after graduation to be a part of the scene, along with their friends. Chicago is a hotbed for East Coast Grads as well. It's known as an affordable and exciting place to live. Best summer city in America.

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This is what I'm referring to re. Chicago's reputation in Michigan. Folks overrate the city, as if they haven't been to other cities outside the Midwest.

IMO, the very fact that you're grouping Chicago with NYC shows that you're wildly overrating the city. In terms of urbanity, Chicago is at least as far from NYC as Detroit is from Chicago.

And no, Chicago isn't a major hotbed for anyone outside of the Midwest. The Coasts tend to be somewhat myopic, and they, unfortunately, consider Chicago and the Midwest to be Flyover Country.

Chicago, BTW, has very humid summers, worse than even here in SE Michigan. It has nice summers compared to, say, Houston, but to say it has the best summer climate or atmosphere is ridiculous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by illwill

I work in R.E relocation and I personally feel like 85% of all Michigan State grads move to Chicago...if not higher. Chicago has also surpassed New York for having the highest number of University of Michigan Graduates.

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More of the Chicago exaggerations. This is exactly the stuff I'm talking about.

Michigan is, by far, the most popular state for UofM and MSU alums. It would be very difficult to find a state school anywhere in the U.S. where another state had more alums that the state where the institution is located.

For some graduate degrees, you are correct that Michigan isn't the #1 destination. New York, for example, is the biggest destination for Michigan Law grads. BUT, Michigan has, by far, more Michigan alums in total than anywhere else, even when you break it down by professional schools and the like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by illwill

And the sad part is many of these people convert once they move to another city. These people turn into Cubs fans, they marry their girlfriends/boyfriends and end up settling down in the city or a Chicago suburb. Rarely do they return back to Michigan at that point.

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Again, more fiction. Where do you come up with this stuff? Please cite some sources for these claims.

Chicago [[city) has the second highest population loss in the nation, behind only Detroit. Chicagoland has positive population growth, but only because of exurban growth on the fringes. All the inner suburban and urban municipalities are declining.

I disagree that Chicago is overrated, and would in fact argue that on a national and international level, it is one of the most underrated cities. Sure, it's nowhere near as urban as New York, and is probably at the same level as Boston or San Francisco. But on an urban scale it has by far the second largest downtown in terms of size, office space, business, etc. in the country, and is a magnet for young people for good reason. Population density is in my opinion a good rough sketch of a city's "urbanity;" New York is way ahead at 26,000 people per square mile, and San Francisco is second at 16,000. Chicago is at 11,000, reflecting its less dense fabric than the coastal cities, but is still over twice the density of Detroit [[5200) or any comparable Midwest city, Minneapolis/St. Paul included.

Next to the coasts, it is a markedly different type of urbanity, but why exactly is one type of urban feel better than the other? I personally prefer the feel of Chicago and other Midwest cities to the East Coast cities, which have an overcrowded feel to me, and certainly to the mindless sprawl of the Sunbelt, L.A. included, which I could never live in.

Yet ask anyone on the coasts and the Midwest doesn't seem to exist, and to anyone overseas, the U.S. is the Northeast, L.A., San Francisco, and maybe Seattle. The Midwestern cities, Chicago the king among them, are the most underrated part of the country to me for the simple reason that they have virtually all the amenities of the coasts if you know where to look, but at a fraction of the cost. As well, a healthy Chicago is a crucial part of a healthy Midwest economy, critical to revitalizing Detroit, Cleveland, and the like. As much as I agree we need more young people staying in the Northern industrial cities, I don't see the need to rag Chicago as "overrated" for it.

As for the population losses, those harsh numbers did take a lot of people, myself included, by surprise since Chicago certainly feels healthier and more vibrant than ten years ago. If you look at the data, most of the loss is in poorer neighborhoods, and especially where the vast projects came down. The population loss is a sign of demographic change in Chicago, a wave of gentrification that I feel will ultimately leave a healthier, wealthier city. But that doesn't have much to do with Detroit now, does it?

My post before wasn't sarcasm. I may have been not so clear and explained myself well. To clarify.

With shopping what is there in Chicago that the convenient and easy to get to as the Somerset Collection and other malls in the Detroit area? Chicago has no shopping that is different than Detroit's. Downtown Chicago the chain king, it is inconvenient and expensive to park and navigate. Where is the cool Rencen shopping center in Chicago? Chipotle here in Chicago, chains and a Walgreens is it.

Today I explored the neighborhoods in Chicago. Lincoln Park and Lakeview. Give me Midtown and Corktown with the dedicated friendly residents who are cool and open. Lincoln Park and Lakeview are vastly overrated, they are dull. The whole Northside is. Downtown Chicago has nothing on Detroit's downtown architecture. Sure there are more highrises in Chicago. I hope you like 1970's slab bland.

The rush of being on a crowded Woodward bus going downtown in Detroit most certainly beats the slum of a train and bus system that is the transit in Chicago. Where is Chicago's cheap, unique and convenient People Mover?

Chicago has no Dequindre Cut nor the cool vibrant River Walk.

Fox Theatre in Chicago. LOL. Chicago barely has a theatre district. It's on par with Toledo.

I am totally with Bham1982 on Chicago. It's nothing special and the huge population loss in this city is clearly evident.

Sorry Chicago you are way overrated and no wonder the coasts blow you out of the water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmy43

My post before wasn't sarcasm. I may have been not so clear and explained myself well. To clarify.

With shopping what is there in Chicago that the convenient and easy to get to as the Somerset Collection and other malls in the Detroit area? Chicago has no shopping that is different than Detroit's. Downtown Chicago the chain king, it is inconvenient and expensive to park and navigate. Where is the cool Rencen shopping center in Chicago? Chipotle here in Chicago, chains and a Walgreens is it.

Today I explored the neighborhoods in Chicago. Lincoln Park and Lakeview. Give me Midtown and Corktown with the dedicated friendly residents who are cool and open. Lincoln Park and Lakeview are vastly overrated, they are dull. The whole Northside is. Downtown Chicago has nothing on Detroit's downtown architecture. Sure there are more highrises in Chicago. I hope you like 1970's slab bland.

The rush of being on a crowded Woodward bus going downtown in Detroit most certainly beats the slum of a train and bus system that is the transit in Chicago. Where is Chicago's cheap, unique and convenient People Mover?

Chicago has no Dequindre Cut nor the cool vibrant River Walk.

Fox Theatre in Chicago. LOL. Chicago barely has a theatre district. It's on par with Toledo.

I am totally with Bham1982 on Chicago. It's nothing special and the huge population loss in this city is clearly evident.

Sorry Chicago you are way overrated and no wonder the coasts blow you out of the water.

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Whatever. There are valid criticisms of Chicago, but you're not hitting them. Keep being laughable.

Anyone who equates Chicago to Toledo shouldn't be taken seriously.

I regret that I gave him the benefit of the doubt on the last page.

CNN report from a little over a year ago:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/01/pf/c...ties/index.htm

Talks about what metro areas have high percentages of college educated residents. Note it doesn't just cover a city but the entire metro. By their report Washington DC is the highest with 47.3% of adults age 25+ having college degrees, and San Francisco, San Jose, Raleigh and Boston round up the top 5 with over 40% having degrees.

Detroit is eighth worst, at 26.3%.

Jobs follow talent. This isn't 1960. We need to make the region a place where talent wants to be, and this means place-making. It's not difficult, we just have to get off our asses and stop pretending that factories will return and rehire everybody.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by professorscott

It's not difficult, we just have to get off our asses and stop pretending that factories will return and rehire everybody.

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Raise your hand if you're waiting for the rise of the factory worker? Ok, all of you with your hands raised, please move to Ohio. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Novine

Did Snyder mention that if you're not straight, state government considers you a second-class citizen in Michigan?

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Only if you're not married.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProudMidwesterner

Chicago is at 11,000, reflecting its less dense fabric than the coastal cities, but is still over twice the density of Detroit [[5200) or any comparable Midwest city, Minneapolis/St. Paul included.

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The only coastal city that is structurally more dense than Chicago is New York. [[This is also true for Detroit: Detroit and Philadelphia have almost the exact same size in land area, and they peaked at similar populations which means they also peaked at similar population densities.) Population wise, Chicago is over twice the density of Detroit because Chicago didn't lose 65% of its peak population. Likewise, the coastal cities are denser than Chicago because Chicago has lost nearly 30% of its peak population.

Chicago city is actually similar in density as London. London is much less dense than New York, but about average for the other northeast major cities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by professorscott

We need to make the region a place where talent wants to be, and this means place-making. It's not difficult, we just have to get off our asses and stop pretending that factories will return and rehire everybody.

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Also have to stop pretending that talent can--or wants to--live in a $250,000 house in the suburbs. More and different housing options would go a long way.

It’s very apparent that Timmy43 and Bham182 hate the city ofChicago. Their love for Detroit, like all of ours, runs deep, but they’re comments regarding Chicago actually come off as being jealous and delusional.

Just because we support Detroit doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t recognize that Chicago as being a successful world class urban city. Nobody ever said you had to like Chicago more than Detroit but admit it’s a destination city that people are flocking to like crazy. It’s only second to NYC in terms of density. That’s saying something.

I love Detroit more than Chicago or New York because Detroitis Detroit TO ME. There can NEVER be another city like Detroit. However, I’d belying if I didn’t think that we here in Detroit aren’t getting ideas from places like Chicago and every other successful big city, but with our own Detroit uniqueness. New York is the bar for American urban success and can never be duplicated but let’s face it, all American cities are aspiring to be as much like NYC [[but in their own unique way). The want for density, rail transit, vibrant walkable streets, boutiques, architecture etc…

I’m just saying, no need to hate fellas!

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Originally Posted by illwill

It’s only second to NYC in terms of density. That’s saying something.

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That's not true though. San Francisco and Boston are both denser than Chicago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProudMidwesterner

Population density is in my opinion a good rough sketch of a city's "urbanity;" New York is way ahead at 26,000 people per square mile, and San Francisco is second at 16,000. Chicago is at 11,000, reflecting its less dense fabric than the coastal cities, but is still over twice the density of Detroit [[5200) or any comparable Midwest city, Minneapolis/St. Paul included.

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NYC's density is actually closer to 28,000 people per square mile. So you have NYC at nearly 28k, Chicago at 11k, and Detroit at 5k.

I certainly agree that Chicago is on another level than Detroit in terms of urban feel, but I think the density numbers show that Chicago is much closer to a Detroit level of density than a New York level.

Chicago has slightly more than twice Detroit's density, while NYC has nearly three times Chicago's density.

Or, looking at numeric gap, Chicago has 6,000 more folks per square mile than Detroit, while NYC has 17,000 more folks per square mile than Chicago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProudMidwesterner

The population loss is a sign of demographic change in Chicago, a wave of gentrification that I feel will ultimately leave a healthier, wealthier city.

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We'll see in the coming decades, but I don't see evidence for the optimism.

If you look at the Census data, Chicago isn't just suffering population loss in the black ghettos on the South Side. There is also very significant white population loss, and the immigrant neghborhoods are also losing families to the suburbs.

And keep in mind that Chicago requires city employees to live in the city limits. Despite this strict regulation [[a rule that growing cities like NYC and SF don't have), the "cop and firefighter" neighborhoods are losing population.

And this is why I think that cities can't rely on the hipsters and downtown yuppies as their salvation. There aren't enough to fix our cities, and Chicago, despite the tons of downtown yuppies, is still overall growing emptier and in a deeper financial hole by the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

We'll see in the coming decades, but I don't see evidence for the optimism.

If you look at the Census data, Chicago isn't just suffering population loss in the black ghettos on the South Side. There is also very significant white population loss, and the immigrant neghborhoods are also losing families to the suburbs.

And keep in mind that Chicago requires city employees to live in the city limits. Despite this strict regulation [[a rule that growing cities like NYC and SF don't have), the "cop and firefighter" neighborhoods are losing population.

And this is why I think that cities can't rely on the hipsters and downtown yuppies as their salvation. There aren't enough to fix our cities, and Chicago, despite the tons of downtown yuppies, is still overall growing emptier and in a deeper financial hole by the day.

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Yes, we'll just have to let time tell. But if Chicago stagnates and crumbles, it'll be a devastating blow to the Midwestern economy, and drag most of the Great Lakes region farther down with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProudMidwesterner

Yes, we'll just have to let time tell. But if Chicago stagnates and crumbles, it'll be a devastating blow to the Midwestern economy, and drag most of the Great Lakes region farther down with it.

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Chicago will be fine.

Unlike Detroit, Chicago's regional population continues to skyrocket [[it has doubled in the last 50 years) and the state of Illinois actually WANTS to funnel capital into the city and actually WANTS Chicago to represent all of what's Illinois.

"Unlike Detroit, Chicago's regional population continues to skyrocket [[it has doubled in the last 50 years) and the state of Illinois actually WANTS to funnel capital into the city and actually WANTS Chicago to represent all of what's Illinois."

But is the suburban model of growth sustainable for 50 years? All evidence in the US points to "no". As for what Illinois wants, I wouldn't confuse what the power brokers in Chicago want from the state with what the rest of the state wants. Like the negative attitudes about Detroit, most people outside Chicago have a strong distrust for the city and feel like Chicago is benefiting at their expense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Novine

But is the suburban model of growth sustainable for 50 years? All evidence in the US points to "no".

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I would say sprawl in cities such as Chicago [[and even Los Angeles) is more sustainable than in cities such as Detroit, since their expansion in land area correlated with their population growth, where as in Detroit we just shifted people around. Though honestly, I'd prefer if we didn't have any type of sprawl.

Also unlike in Detroit, their expansion in land area correlated with their population growth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Michigan is, by far, the most popular state for UofM and MSU alums. It would be very difficult to find a state school anywhere in the U.S. where another state had more alums that the state where the institution is located.

For some graduate degrees, you are correct that Michigan isn't the #1 destination. New York, for example, is the biggest destination for Michigan Law grads. BUT, Michigan has, by far, more Michigan alums in total than anywhere else, even when you break it down by professional schools and the like.

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Perhaps there are more total alums, but the recent trend is concerning. A 2009 Detroit News article revealed that half of our university graduates are leaving the state: http://detnews.com/article/20090403/...-flee-Michigan

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Half of Michigan's college grads now leave the state within a year of graduation, taking with them their diplomas and the talent needed to help rebuild Michigan's economy.

One of the most die-hard Spartan sports bars is west of campus -- 225 miles west, in the trendy Lincoln Park neighborhood of Chicago. There are more recent MSU grads in Chicago than in any other metro area -- including any community in Michigan. While the Windy City has always been a destination for Spartan grads, the number going there -- and other vibrant urban centers such as Minneapolis and New York -- is growing.

The number leaving the state has doubled since 2001, from 24 percent to 49 percent, according to a school survey. Michigan-native grads of the University of Michigan are even more likely to leave -- 53 percent left in 2008, according to U-M. By contrast, a similar survey at North Carolina State, found only 30 percent of graduates left North Carolina.

Other Michigan colleges are witnessing the same exodus. A first-of-its-kind survey of all 2007 Michigan public university graduates, conducted by Michigan Future, Inc., revealed that half of grads left the state within a year.

The biggest beneficiaries [...] so far have been states like Washington, where officials bluntly describe the influx of thousands of college-educated workers from Michigan as a cost-effective approach to education.

"That we can attract those people [[with degrees) is a benefit to the state," said Washington state Rep. Glenn Anderson, the ranking Republican on the higher education committee. "We are importing intellectual capital at a very low cost to ourselves."

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I'm not concerned about grads leaving. We need those grads to go out and see some of the world. Why would we want a workforce that's built entirely on people who have never left SE Michigan? Plus, many grads have degrees in fields where staying in SE Michigan isn't going to lead them to the top of their profession. The bigger concern is that we don't have the jobs that will attract grads in fields where Michigan is well-established, like the auto industry and related fields. Likewise, we don't have the communities to attract those who are ready to settle down and have a family or want to put down some roots and have a choice of where they can work and live. When those grads who go to NYC or LA or London or Beijing are ready to come back to Michigan, what do we have to bring them back?

Young person here: it definitely doesn't look good when the state keeps trying to push an anti-gay bible thumping agenda. I don't care if you and your church believe marriage is between a man and a woman: your religious beliefs should not be affecting my life in that way. Mine won't affect yours because I'm not the majority but they shouldn't anyway. That states have had continuous referenda on a minority rights issue is troubling. That our state legislators have found the time to stab at my feet with multiple anti-gay initiatives while they could be dealing with the economic crisis is infuriating.

At least they passed the anti-bullying legislation without the religious excuse. Unfortunately the story hit the national wires because our tone deaf legislator tried to pander to the Michigan Family Association.

But I'm at Wayne State in a city that has had a anti-discrimination statue that includes LGBT people for decades. Not that the city has the resources to enforce that.

The state needs to do a lot to retain young people. Luckily most of the policy changes really aren't that hard. It just takes a new regime of freedom and openness. We've got to cut the far right discrimination nonsense. This is not the south.

We've got to loosen up. We should not have prohibitive liquor laws. We should not be clamping down on medical marijuana. We should not have silly strip club laws where here you need pasties but not in Windsor.

We need trains. We need to fix the roads. We need to push to loosen up the border and allow pedestrians and bikes across on the bus and/or on the new bridge.

We've already got great music. Some awesome expansive parks that need some TLC. We've got tons of diverse neighborhoods with great food. We have the best block parties and great festivals. We've got some of the easiest urban biking in the country. We've got the DSO which goes out into the parks around town where you can bike up for free and experience an excellent orchestra's sound mingle with the urban sounds in and interesting mash up.

We've got swimming and chilling at the beach in the summer in Belle Isle. We've got the Tour de Troit and Critical Mass. We've got cheap bars, fancy bars, sports bars, and coffee houses.

There is so much here it just needs to be run well and cleaned regularly and maintained and enhanced.

But the Tea Party? The Mayor of Troy? The West Michigan Conservatives? Fiscal restraint is fine but you guys need to get the hell out of my bedroom, out of my relationships, out of my body, and tend to your own personal lives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by laphoque

Young person here: it definitely doesn't look good when the state keeps trying to push an anti-gay bible thumping agenda. I don't care if you and your church believe marriage is between a man and a woman: your religious beliefs should not be affecting my life in that way. Mine won't affect yours because I'm not the majority but they shouldn't anyway. That states have had continuous referenda on a minority rights issue is troubling. That our state legislators have found the time to stab at my feet with multiple anti-gay infinitives while they could be dealing with the economic crisis is infuriating.

At least they passed the anti-bullying legislation without the religious excuse. Unfortunately the story hit the national wires because our tone deaf legislator tried to pander to the Michigan Family Association.

But I'm at Wayne State in a city that has had a anti-discrimination statue that includes LGBT people for decades. Not that the city has the resources to enforce that.

The state needs to do a lot to retain young people. Luckily most of the policy changes really aren't that hard. It just takes a new regime of freedom and openness. We've got to cut the far right discrimination nonsense. This is not the south.

We've got to loosen up. We should not have prohibitive liquor laws. We should not be clamping down on medical marijuana. We should not have silly strip club laws where here you need pasties but not in Windsor.

We need trains. We need to fix the roads. We need to push to loosen up the border and allow pedestrians and bikes across on the bus and/or on the new bridge.

We've already great music. Some awesome expansive parks that need some TLC. We've got tons of diverse neighborhoods with great food. We have the best block parties and great festivals. We've got some of the easiest urban biking in the country. We've got the DSO which goes out into the parks around town where you can bike up for free and experience an excellent orchestra's sound mingle with the urban sounds in and interesting mash up.

We've got swimming and chilling at the beach in the summer in Belle Isle. We've got the Tour de Troit and Critical Mass. We've got cheap bars, fancy bars, sports bars, and coffee houses.

There is so much here it just needs to be run well and cleaned regularly and maintained and enhanced.

But the Tea Party? The Mayor of Troy? The West Michigan Conservatives? Fiscal restraint is fine but you guys need to get the hell out of my bedroom, out of my relationships, out of my body, and tend to your own personal lives.

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Amen! Personally, I could care less about gays getting married. For the state legislature to make that into an issue more important than the revival of Detroit, I find that stupid.

If that's what the state legislature is doing with my money, I want my money back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 313WX

After re-reading his post carefully, you may be right.

If this is true, then that was definitely a great first post from timmy43.

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I'd second that. I did a double-take at first, but timmy went just far enough to make it a good smirk instead of head-shaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cramerro

I'd second that. I did a double-take at first, but timmy went just far enough to make it a good smirk instead of head-shaking.

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Yeah, but them tim came back with this gem...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmy43

My post before wasn't

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmy43

sarcasm. I may have been not so clear and explained myself well. To clarify.

With shopping what is there in Chicago that the convenient and easy to get to as the Somerset Collection and other malls in the Detroit area? Chicago has no shopping that is different than Detroit's. Downtown Chicago the chain king, it is inconvenient and expensive to park and navigate. Where is the cool Rencen shopping center in Chicago? Chipotle here in Chicago, chains and a Walgreens is it.

Today I explored the neighborhoods in Chicago. Lincoln Park and Lakeview. Give me Midtown and Corktown with the dedicated friendly residents who are cool and open. Lincoln Park and Lakeview are vastly overrated, they are dull. The whole Northside is. Downtown Chicago has nothing on Detroit's downtown architecture. Sure there are more highrises in Chicago. I hope you like 1970's slab bland.

The rush of being on a crowded Woodward bus going downtown in Detroit most certainly beats the slum of a train and bus system that is the transit in Chicago. Where is Chicago's cheap, unique and convenient People Mover?

Chicago has no Dequindre Cut nor the cool vibrant River Walk.

Fox Theatre in Chicago. LOL. Chicago barely has a theatre district. It's on par with Toledo.

I am totally with Bham1982 on Chicago. It's nothing special and the huge population loss in this city is clearly evident.

Sorry Chicago you are way overrated and no wonder the coasts blow you out of the water.

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Then I said this...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Anyone who equates Chicago to Toledo shouldn't be taken seriously.

I regret that I gave him the benefit of the doubt on the last page.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by laphoque

But the Tea Party? The Mayor of Troy? The West Michigan Conservatives? Fiscal restraint is fine but you guys need to get the hell out of my bedroom, out of my relationships, out of my body, and tend to your own personal lives.

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Well said, laphoque. But, hey, what can I say? Michigan is largely a state of yahoos who don't travel often, don't understand different ways of living, and fear and mistrust people who they perceive to be different. And when you want to give your rich buddies tax breaks and cut services, one way to help get that done is to scare the yahoos into thinking that teh gays are coming for them. Gary Glenn and Tom McMillin have made whole careers out of this BS, precisely because it works on the yahoos.

Divide and conquer...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Well said, laphoque. But, hey, what can I say? Michigan is largely a state of yahoos who don't travel often, don't understand different ways of living, and fear and mistrust people who they perceive to be different. And when you want to give your rich buddies tax breaks and cut services, one way to help get that done is to scare the yahoos into thinking that teh gays are coming for them. Gary Glenn and Tom McMillin have made whole careers out of this BS, precisely because it works on the yahoos.

Divide and conquer...

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Of the list of things holding Michigan back, west michigan christianists are pretty far down on that list. Its not like Michigan is the ONLY state with mouthbreathers in political office or with a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage. In every single state that it's come up to vote [[33? 34?)...including CALIFORNIA...the haters won. In most states [[like michigan) by rather large margins.

I'm sure for a tiny fraction of people, the fact that Illinois recognizes sorta marriage for gays is a decider. However, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that decision isn't between Detroit and Chicago. It's between Ann Arbor and Chicago. Or Chicago and Seattle.

Lack of a gayborhood in metro detroit isn't making kids who graduate from MSU move to Chicago... its the lack of a JOB or JOB Prospect. all that other stuff is just frosting. you need to bake the cake before you start spreading the frosting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bailey

Of the list of things holding Michigan back, west michigan christianists are pretty far down on that list. Its not like Michigan is the ONLY state with mouthbreathers in political office or with a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage. In every single state that it's come up to vote [[33? 34?)...including CALIFORNIA...the haters won. In most states [[like michigan) by rather large margins.

I'm sure for a tiny fraction of people, the fact that Illinois recognizes sorta marriage for gays is a decider. However, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that decision isn't between Detroit and Chicago. It's between Ann Arbor and Chicago. Or Chicago and Seattle.

Lack of a gayborhood in metro detroit isn't making kids who graduate from MSU move to Chicago... its the lack of a JOB or JOB Prospect. all that other stuff is just frosting. you need to bake the cake before you start spreading the frosting.

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California allows civil unions. Michigan doesn't.

The initiative passed in every Michigan county except Washtenaw. Unfortunately, it's not just west Michigan Christians... http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004//pa...ounty.000.html

I personally do think there is a relationship between the more provincial attitudes of the general electorate and the degrading of the city's ability to create a cosmopolitan place. [[Yes, I know that the measure passed in Detroit too, but I'm talking about the general idea of a "city"... the places that "create jobs".) I think functioning urban areas are libertarian by nature.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

California allows civil unions. Michigan doesn't.

The initiative passed in every Michigan county except Washtenaw. Unfortunately, it's not just west Michigan Christians... http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004//pa...ounty.000.html

I personally do think there is a relationship between the more provincial attitudes of the general electorate and the degrading of the city's ability to create a cosmopolitan place. [[Yes, I know that the measure passed in Detroit too, but I'm talking about the general idea of a "city"... the places that "create jobs".) I think functioning urban areas are libertarian by nature.

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Ok, i don't generally disagree with you here. But civil unions are not marriage. In many cases, they can be disregarded by any entity for any purpose. yes, it's nice and a measure of security. however, grand scheme of things, "california" type civil unions are nothing that can not be mostly accomplished through the assistance of a lawyer here in Michigan. And each and every one of those civil unions stop at the state line....until you get to a state that chooses to recognize them. And none, even states that have "gay" marriages, are recognized by the federal government.

I just think the whole "we must attract teh gheys/creative class because Richard Florida says so" is bullshit and is over played. All those people will come when there is job here for them and/or a monied class of people to buy their services. Detroit, Michigan is a hostile place to do business because it is a thirdworld city "no one" wants to live it. Moving the block of overtly gay friendly establishments 3 miles down Woodward isnt going to change that.

And speaking of places that create jobs... Texas the fastest growing state in the last decade just approved this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2WTCdlWdW0...TexasPlate.jpg

If that aint "provincial" bible beating wackjobedness I don't know what is.

I doubt civil union legislation makes much of a difference. If anything, it's a pretty harsh insult against gays, because it legislates second-class status.

Nothing less than legal recognition of civil marriage is necessary for real equality, IMO. Otherwise, don't even bother with civil union BS.