Detroit Incinerator shuttering

source

end of an era

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Detroit Renewable Energy LLC is closing the long-troubled and odor-emitting trash incinerator in Detroit, switching to lower-cost natural gas to generate energy for producing steam heat for more than 100 buildings from downtown to New Center.Todd Grzech, CEO of Detroit Renewable Energy, said the trash-burning plant will cease operations Wednesday afternoon and about 150 employees who work there will be given layoff notices.
Detroit Renewable Energy will shift all of its existing steam heating to its four-boiler natural gas plant — known as the Beacon plant — adjacent to Ford Field, Grzech said.

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It doesn't seem that long ago that I was protesting its construction. Time flies. Happy ending begins on Wednesday. Sorry for the workers but this will be a big plus for the surrounding neighborhood residents.
Attachment 37845

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/energy...-shutting-down

Ha! Hybridy beat me by 2 minutes! Good news travels fast up in here. Shouldn't have spent time placing the image. ;) Threads merged.

Good riddance to that instink-erator.

Glad its going. How much of the smell driving on I-75 is from the incinerator vs the Marathon plant? Will the smell be gone completely or is most of the smell on I-75 due to the Marathon plant?

We all knew this day was coming.

Its whole reason for existence went away after the city outsourced trash/bulk collection.

Rot in Piss.

Sorry for the lost jobs, but fuck that thing.

This is fantastic news. Good riddance to a bad idea from the last century.

NG is cheaper than free trash that has to be disposed of one way or another?

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Originally Posted by M. Brown

Glad its going. How much of the smell driving on I-75 is from the incinerator vs the Marathon plant? Will the smell be gone completely or is most of the smell on I-75 due to the Marathon plant?

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The smell of rotting garbage [[that would gag a maggot) at I-75 [[Chrysler) & I-94 interchange is from the incinerator garbage waiting to be burned. In the summer months this reeks to high heaven. :eek:

Anthing towards I-75 [[Fisher) and Rouge River Bridge is from the Marathon refinery.

OK... I have a question... when I read about Sweden... and their greening of their environment... they use incinerators to eliminate their refuse... so far as importing garbage from Britain as well to burn... and eliminating trash landfills....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ralia/10115694

https://energynews.us/2013/10/17/mid...little-debate/

So what is considered "green"... incinerating garbage and turning it into energy? Or dumping it into landfills??

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Originally Posted by Gistok

OK... I have a question... when I read about Sweden... and their greening of their environment... they use incinerators to eliminate their refuse... so far as importing garbage from Britain as well to burn... and eliminating trash landfills....
...
So what is considered "green"... incinerating garbage and turning it into energy? Or dumping it into landfills??

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I read something recently about incinerators for trash being the new 'green' thing. I wonder if Detroit was just ahead of the curve? Perhaps the new incinerators are much better?

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Originally Posted by Gistok

OK... I have a question... when I read about Sweden... and their greening of their environment... they use incinerators to eliminate their refuse... so far as importing garbage from Britain as well to burn... and eliminating trash landfills....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ralia/10115694

https://energynews.us/2013/10/17/mid...little-debate/

So what is considered "green"... incinerating garbage and turning it into energy? Or dumping it into landfills??

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I have heard the same debate about refuse incineration.

The difference seems to be capital improvements to the incinerators using the best technology available to keep it a clean process.

Money is always in short supply around here. Economic feasibility and efficiency have to be weighed.

If something can not be done correctly, there is no reason to do it the wrong way. It is a waste of critical resources.

I think waste to energy plants are great, they just shouldn't be built right in the middle of a populated area.

I think maybe management of resources and materials is an issue. Why is/was stuff sitting in piles? Why wasn't it loaded on a 'just in time' basis. Stuff doesn't sit for more than a day or two at at the most before it's burned. Too much stuff? Get a bigger oven. Or another.

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Originally Posted by Jason

I think waste to energy plants are great, they just shouldn't be built right in the middle of a populated area.

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This. The thing is literally a hot mess. While the concept is ok, it shouldn’t be anywhere near a populated area. A better choice would be to consider placing this in some rural area up north that is in need of jobs.

I wonder how much pressure was applied by developers in New Center, Milwaukee Junction and North End. It was a huge detriment to that effort and while the bulk of the stink and smoke descended on the impoverished areas east of the plant, like the devastated Chene corridor, it still stunk up areas to the west 15-20% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

Ha! Hybridy beat me by 2 minutes! Good news travels fast up in here. Shouldn't have spent time placing the image. ;) Threads merged.

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Facepalm...

What I find interesting about this is that both the big late 20th century projects for that area are both now closing: the GM plant and the incinerator.

I find it interesting because I'm inclined to believe that if those things were never built, the neighborhood would be a lot more intact right now and ripe for redevelopment.

I'd say I'm thankful that the terrible "let's destroy huge swaths of our cities and build something big and weird there and hope something good happens" movement is dead and gone but then there is the Illitches. How is that District Detroit working out for you?

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Originally Posted by Meddle

I think maybe management of resources and materials is an issue. Why is/was stuff sitting in piles? Why wasn't it loaded on a 'just in time' basis. Stuff doesn't sit for more than a day or two at at the most before it's burned. Too much stuff? Get a bigger oven. Or another.

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Exactly what I am saying in different words Meddle.

Who the hell has an extra half billion dollars to buy more ovens to burn garbage for the City of Detroit? Have people who think like this been living on Mars for last decade? The whole God Damn state can’t scrape together a couple billion to fix up its roads but buying more of the most expensive solid waste solutions known to man is a good idea? For Detroit? Did anyone else hear about the bankruptcy around here? That financial disaster at 94 & 75 has been a money pit on large scale for decades. Now people think we need more of them? What do they think Detroit can afford? As much as Sweden can?

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Originally Posted by Atticus

This. The thing is literally a hot mess. While the concept is ok, it shouldn’t be anywhere near a populated area. A better choice would be to consider placing this in some rural area up north that is in need of jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jason

I think waste to energy plants are great, they just shouldn't be built right in the middle of a populated area.

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Right, somebody else's back yard, not mine. Send my stinky stuff from my house to some clean place out in the country and ruin that too.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Exactly what I am saying in different words Meddle.

Who the hell has an extra half billion dollars to buy more ovens to burn garbage for the City of Detroit?

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No, we're not saying even close to the same thing. I'm saying it should be there, in the community that generates the trash, to generate power for that community. There is no reason an oven should be that expensive. They used one at Southfield and Fullerton for many years. Might still be there for all I know.

And I'm saying if you don't like the smell of trash you create, don't waste so much. But whatever you do, don't push it off on others, out in the less spoiled rural areas ... up north somewhere, where they 'need jobs'.

Deal with your own damn trash.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

Right, somebody else's back yard, not mine. Send my stinky stuff from my house to some clean place out in the country and ruin that too.




No, we're not saying even close to the same thing. I'm saying it should be there, in the community that generates the trash, to generate power for that community. There is no reason an oven should be that expensive. They used one at Southfield and Fullerton for many years. Might still be there for all I know.

And I'm saying if you don't like the smell of trash you create, don't waste so much. But whatever you do, don't push it off on others, out in the less spoiled rural areas ... up north somewhere, where they 'need jobs'.

Deal with your own damn trash.

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Right. Screw financial sense. We don’t need a lick of it around here. Nope, not ever.

Meanwhile back up north... the Canadians are dumping their trash here because it’s so fucking cheap. Have been doing it for decades. But hey don’t miss a chance to fuck over Detroit with something they can’t possibly afford and has already been proven a financial failure. Repeat mistakes of the past. Maybe Michigan can kick in even more cash next time when the city is in federal bankruptcy court. You figure?

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Meanwhile back up north... the Canadians are dumping their trash here because it’s so fucking cheap. Have been doing it for decades.

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I wouldn't allow that either. Trash shouldn't be transported more than 100 miles, and never across a state line. Deal with it locally, or don't make it.

Same thing with LBrooksey's passing his hoity toity toidy stuff off to Macomb's waterways.

Do I recall correctly that Kevyn Orr signed a contract to supply GM's Hamtramck plant with energy generated at the Detroit Incinerator? Does
the possible January, 2020 closing of Hamtramck Assembly contribute to the welcome demise of the Detroit incinerator?

Do we have a trash crisis in the US? In the past, we sold much trash to Chinese brokers. The Chinese stopped that about a year ago and then
Thailand and India banned US trash.

What are we going to do with trash? Philadelphia is starting to burn their trash in an incinerator in Chester. Is it a "clean" incinerator?

I have heard that burning trash is a major source of energy in Denmark.
Do they have modern pollution free plants to burn trash? If so, why
arn't hedge funds investing in new trash burning plants in the US to be
located in Opportunity Zones where there will be no capital gains taxes?

The trash contractor for my suburb, Grosse Pointe Woods, advised the community today to expect delays with trash collection since their trucks will have to travel much farther to empty their loads. What other local communities were using this facility?

^^ How 'bout the Pointeys burn their own trash, eh?

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Originally Posted by Atticus

This. The thing is literally a hot mess. While the concept is ok, it shouldn’t be anywhere near a populated area. A better choice would be to consider placing this in some rural area up north that is in need of jobs.

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Let's see - build a new incinerator upwind from Canada. They send their dripping garbage trucks of trash over to us - we get the energy, they get the smell.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

^^ How 'bout the Pointeys burn their own trash, eh?

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We used to until the EPA said no.

long range bet...incinerator site becomes gilbert's soccer stadium site. you heard it here first. presuming MLS keeps poo pooing on ford field idea.

31 acres and bordered by 2 interstate highways - adjacent to midtown and proximal to eastern market

It's interesting that the incinerator was built in a decaying area... until Midtown and Milwaukee Junction started becoming hot for residential... now we have new NIMBY folks moving in.... :p

Not soon enough to prevent thousands of people from suffering with lifelong asthma, or worse...

Incineration anywhere is a fickle beast, part art, part science.
Getting everything operating efficiently, peak burn,
minimal emissions 24/7 and 365 for decades is damn tough.
Sensors, operators, budgets, regulations all play a HUGE role in it.
It is not easy, won't get any easier, and no one wants it nearby.

Ask Madison Heights folks - the incinerators smokestacks still pierce sky

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...eal/398752001/

https://redrundrain.files.wordpress....7/imgp0043.jpg

Here's an article describing Sweden's approach. They contend the impact of burning the trash is less than the impact of methane emitted by landfills. It would be interesting to see a science-based comparison. Plus, they don't have room for landfills, so they don't have much choice. Helsingborg's incinerator is well northwest of the city.

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Originally Posted by archfan

Here's an article describing Sweden's approach. They contend the impact of burning the trash is less than the impact of methane emitted by landfills. It would be interesting to see a science-based comparison. Plus, they don't have room for landfills, so they don't have much choice. Helsingborg's incinerator is well northwest of the city.

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I can agree with everything except "they don't have room for landfills"... ;)

They have the identical population as Michigan [[10 million), but they have 3 times the acreage! :rolleyes:

Here is a great gallery of Incinerator protest photos during its construction by the great Detroit-Dearborn photographer Millard Berry, including these two I had forgotten about where Green Peace protestors scaled a tower of the Renaissance Center to unfurl this banner.

http://www.millardberry.com/wp-conte...88Demo-055.jpg

http://www.millardberry.com/wp-conte...88Demo-056.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jason

I think waste to energy plants are great, they just shouldn't be built right in the middle of a populated area.

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Why? Smell? or Pollution?

Pollution? I'm not an expert, but seems that there are two issues.

1) Is the burning complete, or is the remaining gas dangerous? I assume that if Europe is burning trash now, that its possible to get it down to a very acceptable level.

2) Is the smokestack doing its job? The idea of a smokestack is to both enable chimney effect, but also to get the discharge up high enough to ensure its distribution.

And this leads to:

Smell?

The stack should be keeping the smell of any discharge away from the local area. That's why Canada is concerned. They argue that they get hit with the discharge [[prevailing winds and all).

If there's smell nearby, its likely either a) The garbage itself as it arrives, which is never quite like roses, b) the nearby waste transfer station, c) the rendering plant [[is that still over there?).

So I'm not convinced that the actual trash burning is that smelly or dangerous to the nearby area.

Question? Where are these new trash burners being located?

Question #2? We were that advanced that our trash burning plants has already hit its life expectancy? Or was this plant closed for other reasons? Or are we getting ready for doing it 'like the Europeans'? [[Pardon me if the links explain any of this.)

If anyone gets to visit a High Tech Trash Incinerator, the first thing you'll
notice is the extreme intense high pitched, incessant whine of the turbines.
It's irritating, horrendous, and earplugs are everywhere, every entrance, dock door, etc., etc.

Think about heat, caloric value. PAPER burns hot, metal can not so much. Incinerators kill the recycling movement. They need ""stuff"" that burns hot to generate heat for steam, and ideally super-heated steam, above 212 degrees F, under high pressure. It also still smells, because rotting garbage has to be dumped "somewhere" before it goes into the hopper to burn.

Connecticut tried the garbage to energy approach and its mediocre.
https://connecticut.crains.com/artic...waste-strategy

The five plants no longer participate in the energy capacity market with its supply obligations to the regional electricity grid operator, ISO New England Inc.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Why? Smell? or Pollution?

Pollution? I'm not an expert, but seems that there are two issues.

1) Is the burning complete, or is the remaining gas dangerous? I assume that if Europe is burning trash now, that its possible to get it down to a very acceptable level.

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I believe so. "Acceptable" air pollution is relative though, and there are concerns about the specific types of particles etc that incinerators make, but landfills also make pollution. We do have our own regulations though, and the incinerator was consistently not meeting them.

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2) Is the smokestack doing its job? The idea of a smokestack is to both enable chimney effect, but also to get the discharge up high enough to ensure its distribution.

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I don't know for sure, but I think smokestacks do, but not perfectly. I vaguely recall a study that showed that areas downwind of the incinerator had lower than expected health outcomes.

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The stack should be keeping the smell of any discharge away from the local area. That's why Canada is concerned. They argue that they get hit with the discharge [[prevailing winds and all).

If there's smell nearby, its likely either a) The garbage itself as it arrives, which is never quite like roses, b) the nearby waste transfer station, c) the rendering plant [[is that still over there?).

So I'm not convinced that the actual trash burning is that smelly or dangerous to the nearby area.

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Yeah the smell is rotting garbage. They're legally required to manage that, but they don't. And yeah I think that a lot of the pollution ends up in Windsor.

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Question? Where are these new trash burners being located?

Question #2? We were that advanced that our trash burning plants has already hit its life expectancy? Or was this plant closed for other reasons? Or are we getting ready for doing it 'like the Europeans'? [[Pardon me if the links explain any of this.)

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I would assume the new incinerators are located on the edges of town in places that are convenient for garbage drop off, but far enough away from densely populated areas. Some of them might be located near urban areas, to provide heat, like ours did.

The company that was operating the incinerator said that upgrading it to meet pollution requirements would be too expensive. I think part of it is that everything gets old over time and that costs money, and I think part of it is that pollution technology and requirements have advanced to the point that it might be legitimately difficult for our incinerator to keep up.


My understanding is that the topic has been studied and that when you add everything up, overall, waste to energy plants create less pollution and use less energy than landfills, so that's where my general support comes from. But they still do create pollution, and there's pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by renf

Do I recall correctly that Kevyn Orr signed a contract to supply GM's Hamtramck plant with energy generated at the Detroit Incinerator? Does
the possible January, 2020 closing of Hamtramck Assembly contribute to the welcome demise of the Detroit incinerator?

Do we have a trash crisis in the US? In the past, we sold much trash to Chinese brokers. The Chinese stopped that about a year ago and then
Thailand and India banned US trash.

What are we going to do with trash? Philadelphia is starting to burn their trash in an incinerator in Chester. Is it a "clean" incinerator?

I have heard that burning trash is a major source of energy in Denmark.
Do they have modern pollution free plants to burn trash? If so, why
arn't hedge funds investing in new trash burning plants in the US to be
located in Opportunity Zones where there will be no capital gains taxes?

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The facility can switch from trash burning to natural gas anytime it wants to. It has done so in the past while the burners were serviced.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

Here is a great gallery of Incinerator protest photos during its construction by the great Detroit-Dearborn photographer Millard Berry, including these two I had forgotten about where Green Peace protestors scaled a tower of the Renaissance Center to unfurl this banner.

http://www.millardberry.com/wp-conte...88Demo-055.jpg

http://www.millardberry.com/wp-conte...88Demo-056.jpg

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I was part of a group protesting it when it was about to open - we had a student group, "Concern for Responsible Technology" at WSU that did a lot of educational events and other "actions".

I hope it will be soon when there’s a handle on packaging material. I like that cities are getting tough on these policies because it drives up demand and competition for biodegradable packaging and bags, which will ultimately lower the cost for businesses to purchase.

When that happens, we won’t need to worry about incineration and will cut down on landfill deposits.

I just finished a meal at a burrito place where the utensils are made of starch, the cups are out of cellulose and the napkins are recycled paper. Good to know that stuff will dissolve up after a single use. I realize this 50 cent cost was passed onto me, but good knowing I’m not mortgaging our environmental future.

Still weird visiting Michigan and they give you a free bag when you buy something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSjZScSfnto
Uncovering the Horrors of the Abandoned Detroit Incinerator

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Detroit Renewable Power aka The Detroit Incinerator. It was at the center of controversy for nearly three decades. It’s been a target for activists, protestors, environmental groups, city officials, state legislators, and neighborhood residents alike. It’s been celebrated, but mostly hated....

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I work 1.6 miles from the incinerator and some summer days the smell is overwhelming. I can't imagine actually living in that neighborhood. Good riddance.

Bye bye instinkerator.

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