Black Tags

There is more and more reporting on the lack of skilled trades people to fill all of the seemingly endless construction jobs in Metro Detroit, but is this truly a crisis? I am reminded of circa 1980 when Michiganders headed south to Texas looking for work. Michigan had white-on-black license plates at that time, and folks from here were derided down there as "Black Tags." For a time this was as pejorative a term as "Oakies," for the Oklahoma families going to California to find work during the 1930s. Is it not the case that skilled trades types from across the country might be descending on Detroit right now, looking for work? I haven't taken a poll of motels and RV camps, but doesn't our economy work in this fashion? We go where the jobs are, correct?

When my husband was working at LCA, many skilled trades were coming in from NY, WV, FLA, working 12 hour shifts, 24/7. Aside from staying in hotels/motels, many will rent houses if they are here for months on end. When the economy tanked here during the last several years of the Bush administration, they were heading out of town [[WV, Indiana, Nevada) anywhere from 9 months to several years.

I was in the NY area this past week and there were many "travelers" staying in our hotel. It's hard on many families, especially with small children..been there, done that.

The high schools in my area, are now offering vocational training to prepare students for apprenticeships in many skilled trades and I've heard classes are full.

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Originally Posted by Maof

When my husband was working at LCA, many skilled trades were coming in from NY, WV, FLA, working 12 hour shifts, 24/7. Aside from staying in hotels/motels, many will rent houses if they are here for months on end. When the economy tanked here during the last several years of the Bush administration, they were heading out of town [[WV, Indiana, Nevada) anywhere from 9 months to several years.

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This is a growing issue, with lack of focus on skilled trades, not enough immigration to MI [[especially blue collar immigration; MI tends to draw medical professionals and engineers moreso than the blue collars you see in most metros), and hostility to tradespeople who aren't associated with automotive industry.

Local new housing communities tend to be built by folks mostly from the Sunbelt [[esp. Texas), with accommodations/transportation paid for by homebuilder [[Pulte, Toll Brothers, etc.).

The society as a whole focuses more on getting a college education, as opposed to learning a skilled trade. The trades are a excellent way to establish a career and earn a great income as well. There just aren't enough people willing to get their hands dirty so to speak. Most are inclined to rather sit behind a cubicle and wear a suit I guess. Not to mention, the debt they incur and have to pay back for that degree, and some wind up settling for a job, that has nothing to do with the degree they went to school for in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

The society as a whole focuses more on getting a college education, as opposed to learning a skilled trade. The trades are a excellent way to establish a career and earn a great income as well. There just aren't enough people willing to get their hands dirty so to speak. Most are inclined to rather sit behind a cubicle and wear a suit I guess. Not to mention, the debt they incur and have to pay back for that degree, and some wind up settling for a job, that has nothing to do with the degree they went to school for in the first place.

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Absolutely agree. Baby boomers aren't/weren't afraid to get their hands dirty.

I think most companies should be prohibited from requiring college degrees for positions that do not require college level education. Focus on training for the task at hand rather than just getting a sheepskin of any flavor.

There was an idiot at the US Court downtown that required a two year degree for entry level file clerks. Why?

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Originally Posted by Meddle

I think most companies should be prohibited from requiring college degrees for positions that do not require college level education. Focus on training for the task at hand rather than just getting a sheepskin of any flavor.

There was an idiot at the US Court downtown that required a two year degree for entry level file clerks. Why?

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You are correct. I've heard that even the Big 3 are requiring degrees for certain job openings and that has never been the case before. Some positions that normally just require common sense thinking skills. #Overkill.

Old joke I've posted before but appropos for this thread.

Plumber was called to big house in Grosse Pointe for a job and was there fore 5 to 6 hours. The owner came home and was presented with the plumber's invoice:

"My God" said the shocked homeowner. "I'm a partner in a major law firm downtown and I don't make that much money."

Plumber: "Neither did I when I practiced law."

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Originally Posted by Meddle

I think most companies should be prohibited from requiring college degrees for positions that do not require college level education. Focus on training for the task at hand rather than just getting a sheepskin of any flavor.

There was an idiot at the US Court downtown that required a two year degree for entry level file clerks. Why?

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Why? Consensus seems to be that if you don't have the discipline it takes to get an X degree [[or can't put up with the BS), you won't be successful on the job.

Skilled trades have the same thing. If you can't do an apprenticeship, you don't have what it takes to be out working as a journeyman.

Tag on that drug and background checking for the most basic of jobs!

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

You are correct. I've heard that even the Big 3 are requiring degrees for certain job openings and that has never been the case before. Some positions that normally just require common sense thinking skills. #Overkill.

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Originally Posted by archfan

Skilled trades have the same thing. If you can't do an apprenticeship, you don't have what it takes to be out working as a journeyman.

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Apprenticeships are fine and should be promoted since the focus on the job. Take the emphasis off general degrees like Liberal Arts or English History for most entry level jobs and put it on vocational schools that teach practical skills.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

Tag on that drug and background checking for the most basic of jobs!

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That's a different area that can put employers at risk of liability issues if an employee has a bad history. Look at service/repair people -- would you want someone coming to your home that might have a drug or theft history? What about a food service worker preparing your meal that may have a disease related to drug abuse?

There are challenges facing job applicants today that we never faced in the 70s and 80s, but it's because of bad behavior of employees.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

I think most companies should be prohibited from requiring college degrees for positions that do not require college level education. Focus on training for the task at hand rather than just getting a sheepskin of any flavor.

There was an idiot at the US Court downtown that required a two year degree for entry level file clerks. Why?

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I'd go further. I'd suggest a prohibition on prohibiting. You should be considered qualified for for any job you feel qualified for.

If there's a dispute over qualifications, the Board of DY's decision will be final.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

There are challenges facing job applicants today that we never faced in the 70s and 80s, but it's because of bad behavior of employees.

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It's not even limited to skilled trades. I had a relative getting a job right out of high school. He worked at Home Depot for a year. After six months, they promoted him to a department manager, or some such title. Apparently if you:

1. Show up on time
2. Do what you are supposed to do
3. Don't majorly screw up

You are in the top 10% of workers. When he left to go to college, the manager said they would hold his position for when he came back the next summer.

It's not even that *good* workers are hard to find. It's difficult to find someone who can do the bare minimum.

There was a study a few years ago basically confirming this. For most people who can't maintain a job, it isn't due to lack of skills or aptitude. They just don't understand that you need to show up to work on time, when scheduled, and do what you are supposed to do.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

There was a study a few years ago basically confirming this. For most people who can't maintain a job, it isn't due to lack of skills or aptitude. They just don't understand that you need to show up to work on time, when scheduled, and do what you are supposed to do.

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Companies and employment laws promote that with the ill-advised sick time use-it-or-lose-it pay policies. They willingly teach people not to come to work and still get paid. If sick time could be cashed out like vacation time, you might see a lot less people abusing them as personal days.

At one time, I had almost six weeks of sick time accrued because I had the audacity to show up every day for several years. Got nothing for it when I left.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

There was a study a few years ago basically confirming this. For most people who can't maintain a job, it isn't due to lack of skills or aptitude. They just don't understand that you need to show up to work on time, when scheduled, and do what you are supposed to do.

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This is the kind of morals that should have been taught in the home by the parents when these people were growing up in the home for 18 years.

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Originally Posted by masterblaster

This is the kind of morals that should have been taught in the home by the parents when these people were growing up in the home for 18 years.

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Great point. This seems to be missing in some, not all households in this generation.

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

The society as a whole focuses more on getting a college education, as opposed to learning a skilled trade. The trades are a excellent way to establish a career and earn a great income as well. There just aren't enough people willing to get their hands dirty so to speak. Most are inclined to rather sit behind a cubicle and wear a suit I guess. Not to mention, the debt they incur and have to pay back for that degree, and some wind up settling for a job, that has nothing to do with the degree they went to school for in the first place.

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this is simply a big city vs non-big city issue. i grew up in semi rural/exurban midwest. my high school had a robust technical education curriculum, [[in addition to AP college-focused course work) focused on skilled trades [[welding, CNC-machining, advanced manufacturing, and general building trades - mech, elec, plumb). it had a lot of support from local employers in the industrial park. students designed and built a 3-bed house annually with support of the local rotary and lions clubs. the homes were sold on the open market. those who didn't go to traditional college went to 2-yr locals and now work in the trades. all of the other high schools around me had the same set up and partnerships with post-HS institutions. i went to college for a specific skill because that's what i wanted to do..no one held a gun to my head nor shamed those who didn't choose college. 2 sides to every story

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Originally Posted by hybridy

this is simply a big city vs non-big city issue. i grew up in semi rural/exurban midwest. my high school had a robust technical education curriculum, [[in addition to AP college-focused course work) focused on skilled trades [[welding, CNC-machining, advanced manufacturing, and general building trades - mech, elec, plumb). it had a lot of support from local employers in the industrial park. students designed and built a 3-bed house annually with support of the local rotary and lions clubs. the homes were sold on the open market. those who didn't go to traditional college went to 2-yr locals and now work in the trades. all of the other high schools around me had the same set up and partnerships with post-HS institutions. i went to college for a specific skill because that's what i wanted to do..no one held a gun to my head nor shamed those who didn't choose college. 2 sides to every story

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Who said anything about guns to the head or shaming if you don't choose college? You're taking what I said completely out of context. I said this country pushes people to go to college, and Skilled Trades was a viable option for those who don't go to college, to make a good living. College isn't for everyone. Nothing more, nothing less. ???

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Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Who said anything about guns to the head or shaming if you don't choose college? You're taking what I said completely out of context. I said this country pushes people to go to college, and Skilled Trades was a viable option for those who don't go to college, to make a good living. College isn't for everyone. Nothing more, nothing less. ???

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My parents never held a gun to my head and told me to go to college, but it was implied.

I found out yesterday that my cousin in Colorado quit high school. Everyone is very upset. One big rule in our family was that everybody gets their diploma. He has an aptitude for building crafts and trades, but they don't even teach shop in high school anymore. He couldn't get an apprenticeship because you have to have a diploma. He's now selling RVs in Wheatridge. That's one more tradesman we don't have.

Since we seem to have specialized schools for everything from performing arts to criminal justice to health sciences, why not a junior and senior high school for building crafts and trades? I say junior high because we have to catch kids that young, or it gets more and more difficult. To hold their attention, teach them the basics using things they are already interested in: teach them subjects in school with an approach that reflects their interests. Math classes should have an emphasis on pertinent things, like geometric principles, how to figure mark-ups, percentages, square footage, sales principles etc. English classes would be more interesting if kids could learn how to write a proposal or a thank you letter to a vendor. You get the idea.

Detroit would be an ideal place for such a high school. The trade unions would probably love to be involved in such an endeavor. Wouldn't it be great for the Packard Plant to be restored and renovated into such a place? There'd be plenty of space for workshops, classrooms and warehousing for materials. And being an Albert Kahn masterpiece would be the cherry on top.

PS: Regarding the "Black Tags" reference in the original post. Me and my family are one of those families who moved from Detroit to Houston in the 1980s. My bricklayer father retired in disgust after a few years. The trade unions insured excellent work; in Texas trade unions sill do but they are not nearly as prevalent as up north.

Unfortunately, the illegal population has nearly taken over the building crafts and trades down here. Electrical and plumbing are the only exceptions. They will do the work for a fraction of what a union member requires and the work is usually substandard and shoddy. There is nothing "racist" about this remark. It is just a statement of fact.

Good luck finding an English speaking tradesman [[though their bosses can often communicate with you), and better luck finding one that won't cheat you if you're not Hispanic. Always, always get a referral. Don't come south to work in the building crafts and trades unless e-verify becomes a requirement. You'll be sadly disappointed.

I live in a house built in 1979 by a major builder that doesn't have a square corner in the whole house. The drywall taping and mudding is splotchy and bumpy. When we took the builder-grade wallpaper off, a nightmare was underneath. The brick veneer on the outside is cheap; I can chip it away with my fingernail. Every bit of wood in this house is fake, including the railings and cupboards [[originally put on crooked). Not much has changed with building today.

I would love to have the foursquare ranch house my father built in Detroit down here with me in Texas. Unique. Solid. Beautiful.

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Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Unfortunately, the illegal population has nearly taken over the building crafts and trades down here. Electrical and plumbing are the only exceptions. They will do the work for a fraction of what a union member requires and the work is usually substandard and shoddy. There is nothing "racist" about this remark. It is just a statement of fact.

Good luck finding an English speaking tradesman [[though their bosses can often communicate with you), and better luck finding one that won't cheat you if you're not Hispanic. Always, always get a referral. Don't come south to work in the building crafts and trades unless e-verify becomes a requirement. You'll be sadly disappointed.

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so why focus on the workers instead of the EMPLOYERS that continue to hire them?!

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Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Since we seem to have specialized schools for everything from performing arts to criminal justice to health sciences, why not a junior and senior high school for building crafts and trades?

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Detroit has the A. Philip Randolph Career And Technical Center, for both high school and adult students.

Kathy2trips, did you ever consider moving the house that
your father built in Detroit down to Texas, say, via a barge?

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Originally Posted by Dumpling

Kathy2trips, did you ever consider moving the house that
your father built in Detroit down to Texas, say, via a barge?

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That's a joke? Right? Besides, how would I move the knotty pine paneled basement? LOL

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Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

so why focus on the workers instead of the EMPLOYERS that continue to hire them?!

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Just saying that the market is cornered and undercut. Unless you are an electrician or a plumber...then you need a state license and those are only available for citizens or green card holders.

I live in Detroit proper now and I was being entirely sincere.

In the aftermath of the Great Recession and the Foreclosure
Crisis many cookie cutter bungalows [[like mine, though with
interest rates double the rate on mine) flooded the housing
market, driving their average price below $10,000 for a time.
The housing market has recovered somewhat afterwards.

Nevertheless it may be true that some really well-built
handcrafted house, depending on its exact location,
will still sell for much below what it would sell for anywhere
else, and it may currently have an owner who would
be more than happy to accept the market value for it
in cash, and if the house is then professionally moved,
probably utilizing a barge and the river system, it could
very well be that in Texas it would be valued more than
the other houses nearby partly due to its unique character
and sturdy construction.

So if all that is true and you can go to all of that trouble
it might be a breakeven or better.

The sentimental value would just be another plus.