Here is a link to a sobering look the WSJ took at some of the ideas recently discussed for preserving the DIA's collections intact. Not pleasant but quite instructive. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...42490968248588
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Here is a link to a sobering look the WSJ took at some of the ideas recently discussed for preserving the DIA's collections intact. Not pleasant but quite instructive. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...42490968248588
Thanks for posting.... It's amazing at how much solidarity that other museums and their curatorial staff have with the DIA. IF any of the DIA masters are sold.. they will likely disappear from sight in foreign collections forever... :[[
though i dont necessarily 100% believe/agree with everything thats in it, thats a pretty good article.
in all the hubbub surrounding DIA art, other similar city assets have been receiving less press, such as the collections of the Detroit Historical Museum/Dossin Museum, the "cars in the bubbles" housed at Fort Wayne, and Fort Wayne itself.
let it be known however that i highly doubt, for several reasons, that Fort Wayne would be "sold off." the cars in the bubbles on the other hand...im thinking those might go even before the DIA art. the rest of what the DHM collection consists of is a lot of items that have mainly historical and not monetary value [[except maybe for some sports memorabilia). So in my *unprofessional* estimation, not much of the DHM's collection would make it to the chopping block. i dont think much of their collection is even owned by the city...?
I think the collection at the DIA is only receiving the most attention because it's fairly liquid and the most valuable. It's not much of a stretch to assume that just one highly valued piece from the DIA could fetch more than all of Fort Wayne, the vehicles in storage and all the holdings of the Historical Museum. Also, many pieces from the DIA could be sold off without really altering the experience that the DIA offers. To get a sizable amount of money out of Detroit's other cultural assets you would basically have to liquidate them.
Does anyone know the market value of the automobiles owned by the
Detroit Historical Museum? I suspect the other items in the Detroit
Historical Museum and those in the Dossin Museum and the Charles
Wright Museum do not have great value.
If Historic Fort Wayne were located in most any other city, it would have
commercial value to a real estate developer. However, it is in a rather
isolated and not very valuable site in Detroit. If the state of Michigan
will encourage private entrepreneurs to located their businesses on
Belle Isle, the Dossin Museum would be a desirable location for a
restaurant or night club.
The DIA will spiral into extinction if any art is sold, even a single piece.
For those of you who are thinking "better art be lost than pensions" or "I'd rather have city services than art" just take a moment to think deeper. The sale would benefit no one but Wall Street. The state could easily intervene but it has chosen to essentially give up on Detroit by appointing an emergency manager and declaring bankruptcy. On the radio I heard a caller say "oh but Snyder had to do something!" Yeah, something needs to be done, but is it this?
I toured the “cars in a bubble” this past summer and I think they said the DHM controls 90 cars. I say controls, because just as with the DIA, the DHM may not have clear title to them – they are on loan. Not all are located in Detroit. Most are on display around the country in museums that can keep them dry and warm. I would assume thatQuote:
Originally Posted by renf
IMHO, none of the cars I saw were in concours condition. The ones I saw were in used, worn condition and would require significant work to get them running and stopping, let alone looking nice. While some of the cars may be significant or historic the majority were quite average to me.
If I were to guess a value for the 90 cars I would say they MIGHT average $20,000 each or about $1.8 million for all.
So, in the grand scheme of things this would add [[assumptions: number of pensioners = 20,000, average length of pension = 25 years) about $0.30 to each pension check.
thats true, many of the cars in bubbles are not worth that much per se, certainly not compared to a VanGogh, but i think Orr might view selling them off as less damaging to the DHM than selling art would be to the DIA; that was the point i was basically making.
And as far as i know, not many of any of them are actually in running condition. which, yes, lowers their value, but i dont think many people buying a Stutz Bearcat would want it for driving purposes anyway; it would prolly just be one of these rich private collectors who has a big building full of such cars. basically similar to an art collector.
selling Fort Wayne itself...yeah good luck on that, lol. the city has wanted to be rid of that place for years--its not as if people are chomping at the bit to buy it. there are lots of logistical issues involved, not only the fact that it sits in an ugly smelly part of the city. first, you have the fact that it is still basically owned by the US Department of Interior...yeah, they have "deeded" most of it to the city, but as far as i know the city does not have complete, free, and utter "ownership" of it; the feds could theoretically say they want it back. the city might be able to sell it legally, but again, i have doubts about that, especially in pawn for debt. they can sublease it, that's all i know for sure. next is the issue of the Army Corps of Engineers' boatyard and the FEMA office. they still retain control of a significant chunk of the fort's acreage, and vehicle access to that site is currently through a shared gate. also is the issue of site contamination...let's face it, if you were to do soil tests here you'd probably find contamination that would affect redevelopment costs. last, is the issue of the Indian Mound. that piece of land has been deeded back to the tribes. the entire Fort Wayne site [[and truth be told, much of SW detroit) is an indian burial ground, and a sacred site to many different tribes. people in City Hall know this. if the Fort Wayne site were simply put on the market, that could potentially start a pretty big court battle with some casino funded tribes.
so i seriously, seriously doubt Historic Fort Wayne will be put on the chopping block. will the part-time PRD site manager's contract be renewed into 2014? now that is up for debate. He seems worried, haha.
Could Historic Fort Wayne be monetized?
That is a possibility, i suppose. Isn't that what we've wanted all along, lol? If it could be be taken on by some entity managing it as an attraction, or the city subleasing more blgs to other paying tenants [[hooray), that could make the site profitable. at present the Historic Fort Wayne Coalition's events such as Christmas at the fort, our weekend guided tours, and other site-users such as the soccer leagues and events like Oakapaloosa, in combined revenues fall just short of enough to cover the utility costs for the site from what i understand. Which when you think about it, is extraordinary, considering the odds, and that this revenue is being generated without paid full-time staff. imagine if we had the resources we needed to actually run and manage this place like it should be? how much revenue does Fort Mackinac generate? theres no reason why Fort Wayne can't be returned to what it was in the 1970s when the parking lot was constantly jammed with school busses, and a full staff was needed to keep up with it all. we still have the ability [[and the artifacts) to turn Fort Wayne back into an actual MUSEUM again; we just need money. we're working on grants, but we can only do so much.
time will tell what happens.
I was wrong. They only have 62 cars in total.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaCoTS
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/bu...nted=1&_r=1&hp
Cars include: 1982 Dodge mini-van, 1960 Corvair, 1970s AMC Pacer, Horace Dodge’s 1919 Dodge and a 1963 Ford Cougar prototype.
BTW, real, vintage car collectors DRIVE their cars, they do not just sit around as “art works”. These collectors show off their rare cars at concours-type events that raise money for charitable causes. So they need to be driven, even if it is just in and out of the delivery trailer. No one wants a non-running car in their collection.
Therefore, my estimate of the collection has dropped to maybe $1.25 million. Or about $0.21 per check for each pension recipient.
Hardly seems worth the effort.
John Gallagher had a good article on the 4th about a grand bargain [ransom actually] where a $500 million gets paid and the art moves into a not-for-profit trust. Hopefully that will work and satisfy the creditor wolves.
The argument that I have not heard is that abandoning these cultural and heritage items would cause irreparable harm to the city's future ability to sustain itself. They are a part of the brand and image of the city that gives it 'world class' status essential to attracting of business and residents and all the money that follows. Their intangible and situational value is immense and arguably greater than their auction value. Selling the art does not compensate for that loss.
Few would argue that digging up metal water mains and selling them for scrap to help pay the debt would be a good idea any more than melting down street light poles would be. One cannot eat one's seed corn.
The real culprit is the State of Michigan, that turned a blind eye to Detroit's plight and allowed the policies and politics of sprawl that bled the city while leaving it in the care of most of the state's poor. It's almost as if Detroit were not a part of the Michigan. Now the State faces the loss of Michigan's, not just Detroit's, most precious gifts.
See that's where you're wrong... this isn't about [[and I know this sounds pretentious) what the average Joe thinks about their collections... They continually upgrade and improve their collections to improve their status as a top museum among other art patrons and curators around the world. To us "just a few painting" sounds simple... but not to folks who make a living in the industry, or to deep pocketed patron. This does send shock waves through the art world... and not thru the general population of Michigan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnny5
My biggest fear is that this could end up forever having Richard Manoogian's art collection... the largest and finest private art collection in the country... end up like the Detroit Charles Lang Freer collection... when his was "the one that got away"... :[[
If the DIA were to get the Manoogian Collection, we would have one of the top collections of 18th and 19th century American paintings in the world...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Rich...w=1024&bih=611
Also... the art world has its' own set of standards that may seem somewhat Draconian or out of touch for many... but that's the way it is in the world of art. For example... "Selling art from a museum collection to raise money to buy more appropriate art is considered ethical policy; selling paintings for cash for operations is not." When the NYC National Academy Museum sold some art for cash a few years back... they received serious sanctions from nationwide museums... the suspension of all loaning of art, and all collaborations with that museum. So there are more ramifications than just simply selling a few pictures...
Lowell, while you're at it, you really should also acknowledge the strong leadership that steered Detroit through tough times. Without their selfless devotion to Detroit, imagine what might have come to our city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
lets also not forget to thank Democrats like Bill Clinton and his tireless support for the region's lifeblood industry through national efforts such as NAFTA.
I'm not laying all the blame on Michigan. There is plenty of blame to go around and IMO it falls equally on both sides of the political aisle as well as the city and county. But the buck stops with the State of Michigan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
It's like allowing something like Hartwick Pines, the last virgin forest in Michigan, to be cut down and sold for lumber to pay off state debts, then expecting people to keep visiting it. It is something that can't be undone. The damage is far greater then the value of the trees.
Detroit has been abandoned and bled dry by the rest of the state and metro, becoming a human dumping ground for their troubled people who cannot pay taxes but create great expense. That cost has not and is not being shared and now the State's greatest cultural assets are at jeopardy to pay for it.
Though he did sign it, and never should have, all the effort to implement NAFTA were done by the G. Bush senior regime. Clinton, [[who I bet DID inhale) signed it off as a courtesy to the previous administration. The definition of "Bad Move" for manufacturing workers here in the USA, but damn good for manufacturing owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Just as a reminder to everyone, Federal Bankruptcy Judges have NO, repeat NO, power to force a municipality to sell assets. If Orr insists that assets won't be sold, they won't be sold. And the judge has indicated in his comments that he's not inclined to view asset sales as a solution to Detroit's problems.
you're not laying blame...but then you lay blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
Detroit having homeless is not the reason it's a failed city.
Now, now I said not ALL the blame, but the buck does stop with the state. It authorizes the existence of municipalities and, as we see now, can take them over at will.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I also did not use the word homeless, I referred to people with troubles of which the homeless are a part but the largest portion are the poor. They need city services more than most but provide no revenue. Another group are the felons and ex-felons who cost even more and drive up insurance rates and drive down the desire to live in the city. Most of the rest of the metro is getting a pass on this.
This situation does not exist where I live, just 3 miles from the Detroit border where few places for the poor to live exist. A metropolitan government which I support would share that burden, at least on the revenue end and through a unified public safety net.
This is the core of Detroit's crisis. Until it is addressed and some fashion of burden sharing is established, an EFM can pay off all the debts in world and the City of Detroit will go broke again after he leaves.
As we've seen repeatedly with other mismanaged, and revenue-strapped cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
The amount of cash of the art the city can sell is a pittance compared to what they thought. They are Jenny Grandhom Blown Away . . . . right now. Sucks to be them.
500 million ransom Orr is requesting won't cut it; it's worth less than that. But with this low appraisal this is a great opportunity for the DIA to realize true ownership of material culture held by the city, once and for all, and for around 380 - 400 mill if Orr is lucky.
But all of this talk is really for naught because art will not be sold.
Orr super cares about his image and what is on his CV; after all he's claimed that's a major reason he's doing this is -- to be known as the guy who pulled off the impossible. Ego much??
You think he's going to be employable after he blows up the DIA? Yeah, let me hire the guy that sunk a major cultural institution, I'm sure my clients will love his services. Even he's not that dumb to ruin himself like that.
Lowell, I think you are focusing on the past. And that's of course important. We're deemed to repeat if we don't heed history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
So let's move to the present -- since the present is all we can change. And the present makes the future.
Today, the State has stepped up to the plate. Snyder has engaged with Detroit. He's doing what you want.
I bristle when I hear you blame the State. Why? Because the State is engaged and willing to make changes. On the other hand, those who you don't single out for blame are less willing to change. Nearly every proposal put out by the State, EM, and bankruptcy court is challenges by Detroiters.
There's a culture in Detroit that outsiders are only here to pillage the city of its wealth. A culture that is resistant to changes. Blaming them doesn't help.
The State got your message. They've arrived.
The City needs to believe in this process, and be willing to change.
"Lowell, I think you are focusing on the past. And that's of course important. We're deemed to repeat if we don't heed history.
So let's move to the present -- since the present is all we can change. And the present makes the future.
Today, the State has stepped up to the plate. Snyder has engaged with Detroit. He's doing what you want."
That's not true. Just because a bully punches you in the nose and takes your lunch money, doesn't compel you to thank him for helping you with your spending habit.
"I bristle when I hear you blame the State. Why? Because the State is engaged and willing to make changes. On the other hand, those who you don't single out for blame are less willing to change. Nearly every proposal put out by the State, EM, and bankruptcy court is challenges by Detroiters."
You need to cut the comedy and get real. This administration was found to be deficient when it came to bargaining in good faith. This whole thing has not been in good faith. You want people to just skip through the daisies like there is nothing wrong with big, bloated State government coming in and displacing Democracy. Nobody voted for Orr. And before you get all hot and bothered; the by-proxy argument for Orr being in Detroit is spurious at best and holds no ground in this situation.
"There's a culture in Detroit that outsiders are only here to pillage the city of its wealth. A culture that is resistant to changes. Blaming them doesn't help."
You obviously have not lived here for very long or are just being flip.
"The State got your message. They've arrived."
No they did not. The message sent to the State was clear: NO EM! Not "we don't like this so change it up a bit and we'll like it" BS that's peddled.
"The City needs to believe in this process, and be willing to change."
It was very obvious to everyone that once Orr got in office as Dictator of Detroit, bankruptcy was just around the corner. Orr's already been busted on that lie by Rhodes. Why couldn't the city have hired Orr, have him represent the City, legally, by themselves?
It really says a lot about a Governor when him and his buddies are sitting on a boat load of cash at the State level, and so many municipalities have failed under his watch. And why is the State jamming so many laws rooted in Christian Fundamentalism crafted by ALEC and AFA down our throats?
That is not making "tough choices", it's called "politics as usual for the Republicans".
Quit telling the fine people in Detroit that they need to just work a little harder and pull up those bootstraps a little tighter in order to realize the false hope that is the so-called "American Dream".
Because the City Fathers squandered all the money away and were dead flat broke, or else weren't smart or willing enough to seek professional help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
Nope, wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
You may want that to be true but it's not. Not even by the lips of the Dictator of Detroit.
Wall Street loaned money to Detroit when it was swimming in debt...so of course the sale of Detroit's assets to pay back that debt would benefit Wall Street. Otherwise Detroit shouldnt have asked for the money it took...Quote:
Originally Posted by casscorridor
You're right, of course. We could have sold Belle Isle to a failed amusement park company, or waited for Obama to bring us some bacon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
Not even close, Tonk.
Folks like you and Wes like to peddle this whole "time to take your medicine so just shut the fuck up and take it, bitch, and everything will be all better in the morning" attitude is abusive toward the citizenry of this Great State of Michigan, and I am very tired of it.
When we look at the Fundi Christian shit being jammed down our throats now; should we be proud in this Great Republic as an example of how to take away Rights for women?
Hey Tonk. Quick one for ya: If you were told by the State of Michigan that you had turn yer nuts in after your second conceived child; how far would you go to make sure your nuts stayed right were they were at?
Why should you, me, Wes or the bloated State government of Michigan tell a women or a man what they can or cannot do with their body.
What up, TeaBaggers? Isn't personal responsibility like a whole mantra for ya? How is it that you can want it one way for you when it fits what ever neat, jacked up bullshit mindset but when it comes to a women's rights you take them off the line like ya did Rosey.
Get the fuck outta town!
Huh? :confused: I'm always good for straying from the topic, but I think you went off the tracks a couple of miles back. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
I do believe that the elder Bush was working with a solid Democrat congress at the time. How did they pass the bill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
I concede, you're right. But you have to admit, listening to this, he DID inhale.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
http://www.history.com/speeches/clin...on-signs-nafta
So we need to find a way to get baselinepunk and Bham in a "debate," seeing as they represent out-of-touch folks on opposite sides of nearly every issue...
I'd be fun ;)
BLP, I know my politics offend some. But certain parts of Tea Party politics offend me. Please don't lump me in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
I am a proud libertarian. I am anti-abortion, but I'm 100% in favor of this decision being made by the mother, not the State. Liberty. I am in favor of engaged international relations. I think we had an obligation in Syria. I'm 100% in favor of gay rights -- and 100% in favor of marriage rights. I want the state mostly out of the marriage issue. I favor full equality for women. Who doesn't these days? That liberty includes the right to stay at home if you so desire. Equality does not mean state-induced favoritism. [[Induced demand anyone?)
BLP, please allow minority voices here to speak. Shutting them down is so, well, Liberal. Have you ever thought about creating a speech code? I'm sure my words occasionally cause anguish? Banning them might be appropriate, and oh so liberal.
Liberte. Egalite. Fraternite.
if the other museums in usa wanted to help, they would pool together money and buy all of the detroitcity-owned paintings.
then, the dia and other museums would agree to put all of those paintings on a road trip to each of those museums. the DIA gets to rotate its stock, other museums get a whiz bang amazing collection of paintings [[for a limited time) and the art stays in the usa, returning to dia after a 34 museum tour or whatever.
i'd like to think the people of michigan would agree this is better than all other ideas.
Except one idea... the DIA artwork is off the table.... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by compn
Getting all museums on board to donate money is an unrealistic dream.... it ain't gonna happen in our lifetime... :[[
I can't agree with you when you blame the State of Michigan for Detroit's demise. I would say they may have contributed but having been raised/living or working in the city for 55 years the picture I would paint would be self destruction from the inside out, caused mainly by the residents themselves, with many other factors coming into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
im not sure whose "fault" it is matters to a bankruptcy judge.
The art and the building it is housed in are part of the 'Soul of Detroit' and crown jewels of the civilization once known as the great City of Detroit. Sell the art and you are selling your Soul, IMO.
Per NAFTA, the intention was to lower and eliminate tariffs to create a free trade zone so that our goods would be cheaper to the other countries in the region and their goods would be cheaper for us to buy. Whoever thought that manufacturers would 'sell their Soul and their worker's jobs' by shutting down our own manufacturing? To some, like the corporate raiders and leveraged buyout folks, "It's just the way business is done." They didn't care who was hurt including their own communities, their own states and their own country as long as they could make a buck. That was not the intention of NAFTA but that is how the greedy implemented it. And when they moved the manufacturing do you think they improved the overall condition of the low paid workers? Most of the money has gone to hidden off-shore accounts in storehouses of wealth so that no communities anywhere benefit from the increased trade. I don't think that was the intention of Republicans or Democrats. But, it was the intention of those who can grab wealth in any way possible. Of course once they get this wealth they then buy the governments to protect themselves. And, the taxpayers and poor citizens of Detroit and the new communities are left holding an empty bag.
The art is a portion of what is left of the once great Soul of Detroit and representative of the high level of civilization once reached in the city. Sell your Soul again and you will regret it for eternity, IMO.