Black Churches Hurt Detroit

Over the few years that I lived in Detroit I couldn't help, but notice how many churches are present in the city. Its such a dichotomy to see the frequency of crime and corruption juxtaposed against so many churches. My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think?

http://www.cus.wayne.edu/content/pub...ckChurches.pdf

Ok......and the correlation between Black Churches and the City's ills are......

Oh boy Southsider, I hope you're prepared for a typical DetroitYes nasty backlash. Many of the folks on here are going to be beside themselves because your mention in your headline of anything black hurting Detroit will offend their liberal sensibilities.

By the time it is over you will be accused of being racist and just about the most vile human being ever to walk this earth. Just don't let the self-righteous attack dogs on here get to you. They will attempt to villify anyone who doesn't agree with them.

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Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility

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Examples? That's a pretty wild statement to throw out with no elaboration.

Ban-bait. Flypaper.

Nothing in that paper supports your theory. Do you really believe that most criminals attend church?

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Originally Posted by southsider

Over the few years that I lived in Detroit I couldn't help, but notice how many churches are present in the city. Its such a dichotomy to see the frequency of crime and corruption juxtaposed against so many churches. My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think?

http://www.cus.wayne.edu/content/pub...ckChurches.pdf

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What about all the Black Churches in the suburbs?

I don't think the number of churches is the problem, nor the number of attendees to those churches. I also don't think that churches themselves are the source of Detroit's problems. If anything, they are probably a positive force. However, the disempowering philosophy is very prevalent throughout Detroit, so I wouldn't expect Detroit's churches to be immune.

I have no idea if they're good or bad. There sure seems to be a lot of them in the city though.

It's an absurd correlation. Are the churchgoers committing crimes?

Only thing I never undesrtood is how the "leaders" of these super churches can drive around in Cadillacs and Bentleys and live in grand homes and have grand lifestyles.

this ain't gonna end well.

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Originally Posted by eno

It's an absurd correlation. Are the churchgoers committing crimes?

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Well there are a lot more religious people in prison than not.

The original poster is looking at this all wrong. Black, White, Asian, Middle Eastern, green, orange, or whatever churches in general I think are bad for society. Religion asks that you give in to a higher power that is in charge of our lives. To some deranged people they can take that as I am not culpable for my actions. Hell, Catholicism allows you to atone for your sins by confessing them [[I know that is just a quick once over and not the whole process).

I had a catholic friend of mine explain to me why Harry Potter was considered bad and The Lion the Witch and the wardrobe was good by church people even though I feel the themes are very similar and I think it pertains here. He told me the source of power comes from within the individual in the Harry Potter Books where as in Narnia everything looks toward the Higher Power [[Aslan) to save them. Which is essentially the teachings of Christianity, with God all is possible. Lets face it a lot of impoverished people have a hard time buying into the whole just have faith and things will get better nonsense when they look back at generations of their family being shit on by people in power so they decide to take some of that power by force and so on. Growing up in a religious home they are not taught that we have the power within ourselves to rise above and make a better life.

I know that it isn't a perfect analogy and there are a lot more factors that go into than just religion but you can see how this might play some role.

all broad generalizations...church provides structure for some...

.most people that attend are still able to sort this out..of course there are always exceptions and some people in power prey or victimize them...but to paint churches with a broad brush and then signal out Detroit's "black: Church as a negative..it's just a generalization and that in itself is wrong. At best misguided research. I can grasp the angst over organized religion...but that still is an individual choice...a place of reflection for some guidance and direction for others...history and family traditions...I still think it serves individuals and families..but some are corruptible and some need reformation... but that's one perception and everyone is entitled to their own on this subject.

Stupid threads hurt DetroitYES.

You beat me to it Tod_Scott.

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=gumby;110067]Well there are a lot more religious people in prison than not.

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Ever hear that the phrase, "there are no atheist's in foxholes'?

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=gumby;110067]To some deranged people they can take that as I am not culpable for my actions. Hell, Catholicism allows you to atone for your sins by confessing them [[I know that is just a quick once over and not the whole process).

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Yet you still offer it as your opinion.

Gumby, my man, I'm disappointed that you, a poster whom I enjoy reading, offered such a weak analogy.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Perhaps a better correlation to examine would be the amount of concrete pavement and the amount of crime.

"Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards." - Eric Holder, Attorney General
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/wo....20285924.html

He can't be wrong. After all, he's light-skinned and doesn't speak in a Negro dialect unless he wants to.

Now I'll atone for my sins with a simple: I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Todd_Scott

Stupid threads hurt DetroitYES.

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True that. And everytime a stupid ones graces its pages, a baby Jesus sheds a single tear. Needless to say that this baby Jesus has had enough tears, recently, to fill and even low-volume Lake St. Clair. And, I say this as someone who doesn't think churches in poor communities -- black, white, or otherwise -- do much for their communities, at least certainly not more than what they take away. Most folks don't get a good spiritual return on their investment of 10%, to say the least.

This reaction isn't really about offending liberal disabilities, it's about putting forth stupid, thoughtless theories and failing to back them up with much of anything. I do remember when a lot of the bigotry and prejudice around here was a lot more subtle; it seems to have gotten more bold, lately.

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Originally Posted by Detroitej72

Gumby, my man, I'm disappointed that you, a poster whom I enjoy reading, offered such a weak analogy.

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I said it wasn't the best analogy. I realize I didn't describe what I meant the best but it has been a long day and I should go to bed. I appreciate that you enjoy reading my usual comments but we can't hit all homeruns.

That said, as an atheist, I would be one in a foxhole, just as religious people are strong in there beliefs I am as well in mine. I grow tired of my religious friends stating that without the threat of God to punish people they believe that the world would slip into a state of utter chaos and lawlessness. I once had a friend say that he didn't understand how people who are not religious have morals. I am not religious yet I treat others as I wish to be treated, I have never robbed a bank, I have never killed anyone, heck I even have morals.

Like I said it is far from the only reason and in some cases it isn't a reason at all. I wish everything had a black and white answer but they don't. I am just hope we can move past the racial overtones of the original post [[completely uncalled for btw) and have a true conversation.

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Originally Posted by gibran

all broad generalizations...church provides structure for some...

.most people that attend are still able to sort this out..of course there are always exceptions and some people in power prey or victimize them...but to paint churches with a broad brush and then signal out Detroit's "black: Church as a negative..it's just a generalization and that in itself is wrong. At best misguided research. I can grasp the angst over organized religion...but that still is an individual choice...a place of reflection for some guidance and direction for others...history and family traditions...I still think it serves individuals and families..but some are corruptible and some need reformation... but that's one perception and everyone is entitled to their own on this subject.

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You are correct church can provide structure for some, but it can also corrupt others. People kill in the name of God, people kill in the name of science. For some religion is a good thing, for others it is an alternate addiction.

There are a lot of beauty salons and nail places in Detroit. There is also a lot of crime in Detroit. Therefore, beauty causes crime.

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Originally Posted by RickBeall

There are a lot of beauty salons and nail places in Detroit. There is also a lot of crime in Detroit. Therefore, beauty causes crime.

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I agree, we should arrest owners of weave shops across the city, as they seem to be at the root of all evil!!!:D

You made me laugh out loud Detroitej72.

Isn't it the stereotype that gangsters/mobsters go to church on Sunday but during the week do their business while their pastor/minister knows that they are part of an "organization" and always makes that sermon against doing evil in the community?

History has demonstrated the evil of people who hide behind religion to build nations on the back of others or do bad things. In the end; that is not practicing religion but using it to promote hidden agendas or control people... I am sure many of the benefits of religion done correctly [[notice I didn't say Right)..can help those whose needs are tied to their understanding of traditions that they find comforting...addiction for some;yes and hope for others..again it depends how much you read into it...and how you process it...but faith and hope have been seen as strong clinical supplements to people ...folkways also..natural healing it can all lead to results..can't always throw the baby out with the bath water..or use one's experiences as a total understanding of it's phenomenological results..

Science and faith is not a bad marriage when done correctly..flatlanders are the exceptions.LOL

I agree with dtowncity: many people trip over the homeless on the way into church and push aside the poor to get to their offices the next day to make business deals, legislation or laws that perpetuate misery...and still have the nerve to call themselves people of faith [[as long as it benefits their lives only)..
...if we can only take one passage from the Christians and keep it as our motto it should be "what you do to the least of my brothers, you do onto me" and that will cover just about all of our worries...yes we are our brothers keepers, and we need it in Detroit and in Haiti and other places where people are not finding "social justice" or even a sympathetic hand...so if people need structure to remind them or expose them to these rebellous thoughts..well ok..some do some don't.

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Originally Posted by RickBeall

You made me laugh out loud Detroitej72.

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I try to lighten the air whenever things get a bit heavy.

I was just reading about countries like Sweden and Denmark who have great economies and very little crime. They also do not practice religion or go to church a whole lot. They say they practice humanity instead of religion. It is strange how many churches are in Detroit. I've seen corner party stores turned into churches. I've seen "Pastors" dressed like pimps, driving there Cadillacs living large while the commuinty suffers. Makes you think.

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Originally Posted by gibran

History has demonstrated the evil of people who hide behind religion to build nations on the back of others or do bad things. In the end; that is not practicing religion but using it to promote hidden agendas or control people...

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Thats all too true...

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Originally Posted by gibran

Science and faith is not a bad marriage when done correctly..flatlanders are the exceptions.LOL

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That is the teachings of the Catholic Church, minus the flatlanders!!!

If only everyone else believed and felt the same...

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Originally Posted by gibran

many people trip over the homeless on the way into church and push aside the poor to get to their offices the next day to make business deals, legislation or laws that perpetuate misery...and still have the nerve to call themselves people of faith [[as long as it benefits their lives only)..

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Many Protestants tell themselves that the homeless are there by there own choice.

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Originally Posted by gibran

...if we can only take one passage from the Christians and keep it as our motto it should be "what you do to the least of my brothers, you do onto me" and that will cover just about all of our worries...

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I hope and pray this will happen...

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Originally Posted by gibran

yes we are our brothers keepers, and we need it in Detroit and in Haiti and other places where people are not finding "social justice" or even a sympathetic hand...so if people need structure to remind them or expose them to these rebellous thoughts..well ok..some do some don't.

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Gibran, I tip my hat to you and folks like you who see the problems of the world and actually help solve them....

May God Bless You...

Sweden doesn't practice religion? 73% of the population claims a church membership. Registered members. 81.5% for Denmark as of 2009. Registered church members.

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Originally Posted by Jarvis

It is strange how many churches are in Detroit. I've seen corner party stores turned into churches. I've seen "Pastors" dressed like pimps, driving there Cadillacs living large while the community suffers. Makes you think.

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Ah, gotta love those protestants!

Sweden and Denmark have great economies?

THE SWEDISH ECONOMY, DECEMBER 2009
Signs of Improvement at the End of a Gloomy Year
Sweden is in a severe economic slump, and GDP will drop by 4.4 percent in 2009.

DENMARK ECONOMY
Denmark entered recession in mid-2007 before the onset of the global economic crisis, and the slowdown has been considerable. The Danish economy contracted by 1.1% in 2008 and 5.3% in the first half of 2009.

Back at you 72... you see it only takes a simple conversation...I teach social justice at an HBCU...SJ: it has Judea-christian roots....but it doesn't get lost in the structure...

I have this image of the above description ..but then I went recently to a Hispanic Church as a guest for Our Lady of Guadalupe celebration...talk about funny costumes LOL...meaning the Bishop and his homies.

And...ALL churches are tax-exempt. A city needs to have enough revenue to offset that void. Stafford, Texas had to put a limit of the number of churches in their city. They try to accommodate every denomination, but basically say to new churches, "Sorry, but we can't afford you!"

Cock-punch [[you nailed it, LD! Bring back those plaid skirts!). Time to cut off the oxygen. Let this thread slip off the radar. Stop replying. If you want to comment on black churches, do so in the context of some other topic. I've done it, and I lived to tell about it.

But this thread isn't the place, this thread is pure sucker bait, and don't be a sucker, and don't get banned. Wise up. I want you to still be around when I might need you. Let this thread die.

What always amazes me about blanket negative comments re. church [[black or white) is that often the persons posing the accusation has not been inside a church or attended a service. Specific to claims of what goes on within all churches as claimed.

One can always present the straw-man argument, and point to an extreme or characterize [[slick talking preacher as deity, with pinky rings, and caddy etc.) but to do that is somewhat anti-clerical at the onset as that is not whole quotient of church life within the city. There are many healthy churches and ministries providing food and financial relief as well as a spiritual base of hope, providing a world view from which people and families can be empowered.

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Originally Posted by Pam

Examples? That's a pretty wild statement to throw out with no elaboration.

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Thanks for the feedback. I will admit that the hypothesis was and is absolutely anecdotal. When I did the original post I anticipated some pretty vile and emotional responses, but I have been delightfully surprised with the amount of consideration and humor relayed here. There's no way to scientifically link the two. It was and is a passing observation and just wanted to get the perspective of the forumers.

Again, I anticipated much more harsh responses to the post that would essentially translate into humor.

Who cares what you anticipated?

Quote: "Again, I anticipated much more harsh responses to the post that would essentially translate into humor."

Translated: Hello everyone, I'm a troll. Dude were trolled out.

If the churches you mentioned are teaching that evolution is some sort of evil conspiracy, they are doing their members a disservice.

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Originally Posted by Retroit

I don't think the number of churches is the problem, nor the number of attendees to those churches. I also don't think that churches themselves are the source of Detroit's problems. If anything, they are probably a positive force. However, the disempowering philosophy is very prevalent throughout Detroit, so I wouldn't expect Detroit's churches to be immune.

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Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings.Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

What always amazes me about blanket negative comments re. church [[black or white) is that often the persons posing the accusation has not been inside a church or attended a service. Specific to claims of what goes on within all churches as claimed.

One can always present the straw-man argument, and point to an extreme or characterize [[slick talking preacher as deity, with pinky rings, and caddy etc.) but to do that is somewhat anti-clerical at the onset as that is not whole quotient of church life within the city. There are many healthy churches and ministries providing food and financial relief as well as a spiritual base of hope, providing a world view from which people and families can be empowered.

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They are being good altruistic human beings. Church members do what many atheists like myself do, and that is volunteer to help the less fortunate. In many cases the members are benefitting themselves by assisting the homeless at churches: its a public safety issue. Several of the clients at the shelter office where I volunteered were taken aback and seemed slightly annoyed when I told them I didnt have any religious beliefs. The clients who thought they were there because "God had a plan" tended to be shiftless and lethargic..obviously full churches in Detroit have little impact on the overall state of the place....countries with high percentages of atheism have high standards of living; long life expectancies; universal health care; low crime rates etc.....

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Originally Posted by terryh

....countries with high percentages of atheism have high standards of living; long life expectancies; universal health care; low crime rates etc.....

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Which came first?

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Originally Posted by East Detroit

Which came first?

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What are you asking?:) Which came first? Elaborate please...

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Sweden doesn't practice religion? 73% of the population claims a church membership. Registered members. 81.5% for Denmark as of 2009. Registered church members.

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official membership means --- nothing. church attendence is under 10% in sweden, very slightly higher in denmark

So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith.

There are mryiad black denominations and sects. Nation of Islam; Church of the Black Madonna; the black Israelites are particularly creepy and spacy;Baptists-born agains; Catholics; Jehova Witness etc....the literalists in every religion scare me...In reality there are no christians jews hindus or muslims just human beings who make an identity for themselves and think they know a truth or have a special connection to a higher being that the rest of us don't have. Many of the catholic churches and synagogues now house baptist and non-denominational congregations.

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Originally Posted by terryh

Several of the clients at the shelter office where I volunteered were taken aback and seemed slightly annoyed when I told them I didnt have any religious beliefs. The clients who thought they were there because "God had a plan" tended to be shiftless and lethargic.

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So, I suppose if you worked in a scientific laboratory with a bunch of believers, you would conclude that all believers are self-motivated geniuses who invent or discover things?

Someone's belief in atheism is just as valid as the beliefs of Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. Just as religious believers cannot provide definitive proof of the existence of a divine being, neither can the atheist prove the non-existence of a divine being.

Why is it then that some atheists feel compelled to denigrate those who have differing beliefs? Is it because they are bigoted?

Answer: Time spent together in worship and scriptural study, etc. is one of the core activities / actions expressed as a communal activity, is prescribed in the Christian Bible [[Protestant or Catholic). Additionally, faith of course has a solo and private component and expression. Yet believers are to "not forsake the assembly with other believers"... [[one example in the Bible that talks about gathering together of believers).

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith.

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Originally Posted by Mikeg

Why is it then that some atheists feel compelled to denigrate those who have differing beliefs? Is it because they are bigoted?

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I think its because they [[falsely) believe they are more enlightened that folks of a religious nature.

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Originally Posted by Jarvis

I was just reading about countries like Sweden and Denmark who have great economies and very little crime. They also do not practice religion or go to church a whole lot. They say they practice humanity instead of religion. It is strange how many churches are in Detroit. I've seen corner party stores turned into churches. I've seen "Pastors" dressed like pimps, driving there Cadillacs living large while the commuinty suffers. Makes you think.

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Ive noticed the same thing about churches in Detroti...read the same about the European countries with high levels of organic atheism....

[quote=Retroit;110733]So, I suppose if you worked in a scientific laboratory with a bunch of believers, you would conclude that all believers are self-motivated geniuses who invent or discover things?[/quote I dont know about lab assistants but I think scientists tend to be agnostic-atheist...I believe that is a generalization that can be made...

Mikeg the religious can believe whatever they choose as long as they dont demand special rights and privelages; break the law and discriminate; respect the seperation of church and state etc....

Quote: ".Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself."

What a steaming crock of it. I've skimmed over your posts, you are so off base, I don't even know where to begin. Other than to say, you're wrong.

Show me where it says "Get in your station wagon, and go to a building built with tax deferred donations from a group, or groups of people" "Try to outdress everyone there" "By simply attending you'll be better and closer to God somehow than people that do not attend this building" etc.

The Bible speaks in terms of spirit often, that many misconceive as physical presence and actions. Multi Million dollar churches with little outreach or even benefit aren't mentioned. Faith is a personal one on one relationship and many can congregate in that spirit.

Quote: ""Answer: Time spent together in worship and scriptural study, etc. is one of the core activities / actions expressed as a communal activity, is prescribed in the Christian Bible [[Protestant or Catholic). Additionally, faith of course has a solo and private component and expression. Yet believers are to "not forsake the assembly with other believers"... [[one example in the Bible that talks about gathering together of believers).""
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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo http://detroityes.com/mb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith""

Yep, we all know about that flashy-materialistic based church that demands fancy clothing and all that "stuff". But that is not a requirement, or the foundational "reason" for why people attend church for which I gave the answer in my original response.

Now the option of what kind of church, the kind building, etc., yes it is an issue. But those who discern properly make their choice for the reason I stated [[see below - "Zacha341 wrote").

Sure, we can all point to the "negative" toxic church set-up, non the less, the foundational reason for believers to gather remains... and everyone does not subscribe to the worst model of church reference.

I prefer the simpler, non-commercial congregation able to effectively apply help spiritually to its members having an impact locally and abroad in other areas of need.

All Christian assemblies are not of "flash" and foolishness. For example in China they have have gatherings in homes for the purpose of "assembly". I doubt there's little affectation going on there.

The "church" experience and infrastructure here in the states varies in response to the our society likewise [[some very commercial and secular, some not).

Sadly some reflect a secular materialism not consistent with Biblical teachings.

But all do not, nor do all congregants desire that.

There are many healthy, well-balanced church assemblies here accomplishing much and for example collecting funds to help Haiti.

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Show me where it says "Get in your station wagon, and go to a building built with tax deferred donations from a group, or groups of people" "Try to outdress everyone there" "By simply attending you'll be better and closer to God somehow than people that do not attend this building" etc.

The Bible speaks in terms of spirit often, that many misconceive as physical presence and actions. Multi Million dollar churches with little outreach or even benefit aren't mentioned. Faith is a personal one on one relationship and many can congregate in that spirit.

Zacha341 wrote: "Answer: Time spent together in worship and scriptural study, etc. is one of the core activities / actions expressed as a communal activity, is prescribed in the Christian Bible [[Protestant or Catholic). Additionally, faith of course has a solo and private component and expression. Yet believers are to "not forsake the assembly with other believers"... [[one example in the Bible that talks about gathering together of believers).""

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo http://detroityes.com/mb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith""

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Mikeg the religious can believe whatever they choose as long as they dont demand special rights and privelages; break the law and discriminate; respect the seperation of church and state etc....

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The vast majority of religious believers do respect and follow the laws, yet you denigrate them with a very broad and bigoted brush:

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Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings

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There are mryiad black denominations and sects. Nation of Islam; Church of the Black Madonna; the black Israelites are particularly creepy and spacy;Baptists-born agains; Catholics; Jehova Witness etc....the literalists in every religion scare me...

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…My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think? -- southsider


Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings.Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself. -- terryh

Wow! I didn’t know that teaching that adherents should follow the example of Jesus Christ [[since we are talking about an 80% AA city & most AA’s who have a religious preference are Christian) in helping the poor, loving one another and feeling empowered and confident because you KNOW that yours is a righteous cause made one a self-loathing, irresponsible zombie -- because you “don’t think for youreself� [[sic). Most of the human catalysts for social justice and human and civil rights throughout world history did so in order to HONOR their deity whomever that was for them.

“Let go and let God� refers to allowing God to work THROUGH you and your actions to accomplish His/Her purpose for your life and His/Her kingdom without letting fear, doubt, shame, pride, sloth or whatever getting in your/God’s way. The notion that it has anything to do with not being responsible for your actions is absurd. The Bible, the Torah, the Koran and most deity-based religions have anecdotes/stories that emphasize the choices of humans and the consequences [[or responsibilities) of their choices.

I’m not trying to get into a theological debate here. Your religious leanings are your business. You wanted to know what “forumers� thought. Well, here’s my two pennies…your entire premise is flawed. In general, church property tends to be clean and maintained [[grass cut, no stray trash, etc), active members visit the sick, feed and provide shelter for the hungry, run sports, mentorship, scholarship and tutoring programs, host health fairs, some pastors sit on panels that seek cooperation with other cultures, suburbanites, etc. None of that sounds like its promoting self-loathing and irresponsibility. By contrast, those are activities of churches seeking to empower its membership & community. Are there church leaders who teach that everything that is wrong in one’s life is because he/she is African-American and “the man� is keeping them down? I’m sure there are. But does this constitute a popular “ideology� promoted by Detroit churches? I don’t think so.

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Originally Posted by Patrick

Only thing I never undesrtood is how the "leaders" of these super churches can drive around in Cadillacs and Bentleys and live in grand homes and have grand lifestyles.

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Not all black churches are mega-churches and not all mega-churches are black churches. Not all black preachers are prosperity preachers and not all prosperity preachers are black preachers. You need to be specific when you level such accusations. Elmer Gantrys do exist, just as there are bad apples in every walk of life, but they are not the majority.

Well stated... Thanks. What you have often instead of a healthy debate is the standard "straw man" argument, in which a certain kind of church is referenced again and again in order to "knock down" [[critique) the whole concept of Christian assembly and the motives and reasoning for those who participate.

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Originally Posted by lilpup

Not all black churches are mega-churches and not all mega-churches are black churches. Not all black preachers are prosperity preachers and not all prosperity preachers are black preachers. You need to be specific when you level such accusations. Elmer Gantrys do exist, just as there are bad apples in every walk of life, but they are not the majority.

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You bring up several compelling points that at minimal express a broader perspective of church life in general and in Detroit specifically. Sure, many of us can reference a toxic church experience we heard about or may have even experienced.

Yet that is not the whole fabric of the church and too often the extreme is portrayed as the norm for ALL churches. Hah, don't get me starting on the ironic places that "self-loathing" holds up... like in "some" areas of academia and in the arts.

But that's another subject.

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Originally Posted by mam2009

…My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think? -- southsider


Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings.Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself. -- terryh

Wow! I didn’t know that teaching that adherents should follow the example of Jesus Christ [[since we are talking about an 80% AA city & most AA’s who have a religious preference are Christian) in helping the poor, loving one another and feeling empowered and confident because you KNOW that yours is a righteous cause made one a self-loathing, irresponsible zombie -- because you “don’t think for youreself” [[sic). Most of the human catalysts for social justice and human and civil rights throughout world history did so in order to HONOR their deity whomever that was for them.

“Let go and let God” refers to allowing God to work THROUGH you and your actions to accomplish His/Her purpose for your life and His/Her kingdom without letting fear, doubt, shame, pride, sloth or whatever getting in your/God’s way. The notion that it has anything to do with not being responsible for your actions is absurd. The Bible, the Torah, the Koran and most deity-based religions have anecdotes/stories that emphasize the choices of humans and the consequences [[or responsibilities) of their choices.

I’m not trying to get into a theological debate here. Your religious leanings are your business. You wanted to know what “forumers” thought. Well, here’s my two pennies…your entire premise is flawed. In general, church property tends to be clean and maintained [[grass cut, no stray trash, etc), active members visit the sick, feed and provide shelter for the hungry, run sports, mentorship, scholarship and tutoring programs, host health fairs, some pastors sit on panels that seek cooperation with other cultures, suburbanites, etc. None of that sounds like its promoting self-loathing and irresponsibility. By contrast, those are activities of churches seeking to empower its membership & community. Are there church leaders who teach that everything that is wrong in one’s life is because he/she is African-American and “the man” is keeping them down? I’m sure there are. But does this constitute a popular “ideology” promoted by Detroit churches? I don’t think so.

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Originally Posted by East Detroit

Which came first?

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probably socialist xtianity

How prevalent is the idea of not cooperating with the police and what are local ministers saying about it?

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Again, I anticipated much more harsh responses to the post that would essentially translate into humor."

Translated: Hello everyone, I'm a troll. Dude were trolled out.

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What makes me a troll or a dude? You know neither.

Dude, You posted nonsense to get a rise out of people. What else are we to think?

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Originally Posted by southsider

What makes me a troll or a dude? You know neither.

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In reading some of the posts, I think people dismiss the black church a little too quickly as being irrevalent to the needs of blacks in general and blacks in Detroit in particular. Many blacks churches preach a form of black liberation theology which directly addresses the earthly needs of blacks. Because of that, I don't think one should make statements like "self loathing and irresponsibility" in describing the effects of the black church on black people. To say something like that is flat out wrong. Blacks perceptions of church and state in general is rather than being separate is more inclusive. Thats why many of the political leaders in the black community are also religious leaders as well. Thats why in order to be a successful politican in the black community you must have the blessing of the black church.

Now granted you also have your prosperity theologist like TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar. They serve an uplifting purpose to the black community as well. Now even though you have your preacher-pimps and your jack-leg storefront preachers in the black community as well, they are the exception and not the rule.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liberation_theology

Given a choice I would rather attend a rockin-bluesy black church than an uptight stuffy white church.Its fun to watch congregants 'catch the ghost' and run up and down the isles...other than that I think religion divides.us.....a subject for a new thread? perhaps........
Years ago[[many years Im a little more responsible now lol) I was on Gratiot and in a predicament in which the gas tank was low and I was broke after a night of partying, I stopped at a black church on Gratiot and explained my situation to the black pastor who took care of my need for gas money which I later repayed by donating the money to the church as the pastor refused to accept the money as payback for a good deed.Now the question is was the pastor being a good christian or a good human being? I would possibly, depending on how I read the situation put gas in someones car because I would want someone to do the same for me or a friend or family member. There have been numerous other situations in biking excursions and photo trips in Detroit in which I stopped by a church in Detroit to use the restroom or take pics and was met with seething hostility and contempt, as though I was somehow obligated tostay and listen to a sermon and come out of my pocket with funds to support a 'ministry'......

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

You bring up several compelling points that at minimal express a broader perspective of church life in general and in Detroit specifically. Sure, many of us can reference a toxic church experience we heard about or may have even experienced.

Yet that is not the whole fabric of the church and too often the extreme is portrayed as the norm for ALL churches. Hah, don't get me starting on the ironic places that "self-loathing" holds up... like in "some" areas of academia and in the arts.

But that's another subject.

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Fairenough Zacha but I think the religious are being good human beings..one doesn't need to believe in an intervening deity to strive for a better society and uplift the needy. We need charity and government assistance as a matter of public safety..highly religious societies tend to have more crushing poverty and violence-disease etc....in highly secular and atheist countries health care is made available and little or no cost; life expectancies are higher; they have lower crime rates etc...atheist -agostic-non practicing medical scientists create medicines that cure and keep in remission myriad diseases etc so on and so forth..

The 'prophet' Mohammed lived in a cave and heard voices and Jesus who claimed to be the son of God, if they really existed at all were probably charasmatic figures who in this day and age would be diaganosed as schizophrenic and manic depressive...;):p:)

Do people become Christian singularly just to be a "good human" being? I think it is bit more complex than that... though that is an out-working.

I'm not going to get into a lengthy theological, epistemological or existential discussion on rather or not Jesus is who he said his is etc. or why some "choose" to believe or the veracity of the writings about him or the validity of Mohammed's inspirationals et al.

But I will say that it need NOT be an "either" / "or" issue with regards to people who do good or their inspiration be it so called "religious" or not.

And of course there are many Christians engaged in the sciences and other intellectual endeavors. And there are many secular people are generous as well as those who claim the cause of Christ or another faith.

Yet, others have found the Christian faith and teachings to be crucial in guiding and sustaining them to be happier, better people, beyond what they wanted, or could do on their own.

The non-believe may call this brainwashing, or influence. I will simply say that from my world view [[as a believer) it is trans-formative inspiration [[as corny as that may seem!). Yet the testimony stands of those who have had their lives changed.

To go back to my original thesis [[comment), I simply stated that I've found self-loathing not to be exclusive to Christians. And yes, additionally as you state there are charitable people who are not so religiously inspired.

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Originally Posted by terryh

Fairenough Zacha but I think the religious are being good human beings..one doesn't need to believe in an intervening deity to strive for a better society and uplift the needy. We need charity and government assistance as a matter of public safety..highly religious societies tend to have more crushing poverty and violence-disease etc....in highly secular and atheist countries health care is made available and little or no cost; life expectancies are higher; they have lower crime rates etc...atheist -agostic-non practicing medical scientists create medicines that cure and keep in remission myriad diseases etc so on and so forth..

The 'prophet' Mohammed lived in a cave and heard voices and Jesus who claimed to be the son of God, if they really existed at all were probably charasmatic figures who in this day and age would be diaganosed as schizophrenic and manic depressive...;):p:)

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There is nothing in our human nature that has any desire to be a good person. It is only when we become aware of our higher spiritual nature that we seek to do good.

As far as the superiority of atheistic countries over believing countries, I would suggest that those countries that you label as atheist were probably not always so and their current superior [[by your reasoning) culture and beliefs are based more on their religious past than they are on their atheistic present.

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Originally Posted by Retroit

There is nothing in our human nature that has any desire to be a good person. It is only when we become aware of our higher spiritual nature that we seek to do good.

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Have you ever tried being an asshole all the time? It's hard work, and it's no damn fun. Everyone hates you, you don't get that rewarding feeling of making other people happy, you shy away from mirrors and have trouble sleeping...it's just a bad scene. I think people, regardless of spiritual or religious convictions, generally strive to do what they consider to be good, and rationalize their actions in terms of their personal moral codes. I don't think the end result is all that different whether those codes are structured by God and Satan and heaven and hell or just by constantly asking oneself "am I being an asshole right now?"

You're describing sociopaths, not atheists.

man chooses his paths based on the basic premises of doing good or using evil as an excuse to do bad...or the struggle with both at times...

spirituality comes in many expressions..some do it with a purely humanistic approach [[which by the way mirrors Judea-Christian/ religious dogma) or they pledge support to a specific religion or at least had a background in it's structure. An atheist or a agnostic can be some of the most liberating and kind people out there..just as some religious folk hide behind Bibles, Torahs or Korans to support great wrongs...

.it still is an individual choice and made with much deliberation for some...and a struggle for others.

The bottom line is whatever your beliefs ...doing good resembles a strong passage in the Christian bible of "doing unto others as you would do unto you...or whatever you do to the least of my brothers you do unto me"...either way you cut it secular or spiritual or a combination of both...that helps edge your chances of a good life.

Or as I like to view it...until someone can statically prove at .005 or less that God doesn't exist [[and that there is something that even our greatest scientists can 't prove)...I'm betting on a higher power...and I am a scientist.

Faith and Hope are very powerful psychological tools and should never be belittled because they do not appear scientifically sound...as an example; try explaining nuclear physicals to a caveman or even and iron age person..their primitive cognition hadn't had the experiences to draw a deeper understanding in their generations- as our with some of the greatest mysteries are yet to be explained in ours.

Black Churches hurt Detroit, THAT'S A LIE!!! Black churches either it's a storfront or a megachurch is doing great. It lures the lost from their ghettoes to Jesus Christ so they can be SAVED through grace and salvation.

Retroit wrote:

"There is nothing in our human nature that has any desire to be a good person. It is only when we become aware of our higher spiritual nature that we seek to do good."

Retroit, for what it's worth-- which is nothing, since it's just one opinion in opposition to another opinion-- I strongly disagree with that statement, particularly the second sentence.

Seeking to "do good" because of something like that sounds, to me, an awful lot like "doing good" because one believes that they are supposed to.
Not everyone who is good, and who does good things, is motivated by a desire to actualize, or manifest, something about themselves, y'know.

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Originally Posted by terryh

Mikeg the religious can believe whatever they choose as long as they dont demand special rights and privelages; break the law and discriminate; respect the seperation of church and state etc....

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Special rights like freedom from property taxes?

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Originally Posted by Retroit

There is nothing in our human nature that has any desire to be a good person. It is only when we become aware of our higher spiritual nature that we seek to do good.

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That's a lot of rot. How you treat your fellow human beings is related to your upbringing.

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As far as the superiority of atheistic countries over believing countries, I would suggest that those countries that you label as atheist were probably not always so and their current superior [[by your reasoning) culture and beliefs are based more on their religious past than they are on their atheistic present.

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I don't think you can make that claim since the histories of Europe include the reigns of authoritarian divine right kings who governed to maintain their own power.

I went to hear Jesse Jackson speak last Sunday, and I had to sit through about eleven Baptist ministers before he spoke. Fortunately, they restrained themselves. I had to giggle at the "offertory" which in the RC church is when the bread and wine are offered to god. In this Baptist service it marked when we were supposed to offer up our money. The minister who spoke to this even asked the Lord to help out the finances of those who couldn't afford much. They didn't even say what the money would be used for. Jackson explained the subprime morthgage crisis which, I guess, is responsible for a lot of the foreclosures in Detroit rather than unemployment. Attorney Jerry Goldberg gave an impassioned plea that the Governor declare a state of economic emergency in Detroit and a moratorium on foreclosures.