Will the water shut offs effect Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan's Term?

During the last couple of months the Detroit Dept. of Water and Sewage has shut off water access to thousands and Detroit residents. Protesters from all over storm the City-County Building demanding to stop water shut offs. Later the municipal bankruptcy court Judge Grover ruled that "Water is not part of the constitutional right." Water is our birthright, not a human right. Just like breathing air. Also the Detroit Dept. of Water and Sewage is now in the hands of regional authorities.

What do you all think about this long term problem? Would the Detroit Dept. of Water and Sewage effect mayor Duggan's term? Can he step up and come with a plan to stop water shut offs so that residents can come up some and financial repayment plan to keep their water on in their homes and businesses? Or could this water shut off problem be the end of his term?

Any thoughts?

This will not be a problem for Mayor Duggan. Outreach efforts have been well-publicized for those who can't afford to pay. The new regional authority provides $4.5 million a year for a fund to subsidize those who cannot pay.

This whole line of thinking that treated water, piped to your residence is a birth right or a constitutional right is ridiculous.

That's not to say that we, as a society, should not kick in to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Danny

What do you all think about this long term problem?

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Well, If the DDWS doesn't start collecting the $180 mil overdue, for services provided, it could plunge the City into bankruptcy. Oh, wait.....

Pay your bill. It costs a lot of money to treat the water, pump it to your house, take the dirty water away from your house, and re-treat.

If I were a Detroit voter, I would look at what Duggan is doing as a prudent, necessary step.

Keep in mind that the pay-back options are very flexible.

Here's the 10/30/50 plan: http://www.dwsd.org/pages_n/homelinks.html#10_30_50


The plan allows you to pay 10% of your overdue bill, and then spreads the rest over a whopping 24-month period.

Let's say you owe $500. You need to pay $50 upfront to avoid the shutoff, and then the remaining $450 is spread into $18.75 a month payments over the next two years.

It's a very generous program and allows people to square up.

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Originally Posted by 48307

Pay your bill. It costs a lot of money to treat the water, pump it to your house, take the dirty water away from your house, and re-treat.

If I were a Detroit voter, I would look at what Duggan is doing as a prudent, necessary step.

Keep in mind that the pay-back options are very flexible.

Here's the 10/30/50 plan: http://www.dwsd.org/pages_n/homelinks.html#10_30_50


The plan allows you to pay 10% of your overdue bill, and then spreads the rest over a whopping 24-month period.

Let's say you owe $500. You need to pay $50 upfront to avoid the shutoff, and then the remaining $450 is spread into $18.75 a month payments over the next two years.

It's a very generous program and allows people to square up.

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You are a fascist, Koch brothers shill. Unlimited, clean water should be free to every citizen in these United States. The Declaration of Independence doesn't say we have to cough up a fee for the "life" part. What's next from you assholes in Kochistan? A fee for breathable air!?!

/sarc.

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Originally Posted by Danny

Water is our birthright, not a human right. Just like breathing air.

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Sure it is, so if you don't like paying a water bill, here's what you do: go to any big restaurant and ask for what they call a "pickle bucket". It's a five-gallon white plastic open-top bucket with a metal handle that has a plastic grip so the handle doesn't hurt your hands when you carry it. A big restaurant is likely to have dozens of these wasting space and might give it to you for free.

Next: go down to the Detroit River someplace where you can safely get to the water line, such as parts of Belle Isle, and fill up the bucket and take the water home. No charge. Do this as often as you want.

What? You say. That's not clean water, and it's not at my house. Well, guess what, kids, whether you believe "water is our birthright" or not, when you tap in to a municipal system, you're not paying for water. You're paying for treatment and delivery, and the vastly expensive infrastructure which must be maintained in order to make possible the treatment and delivery. The delivery to your house of clean, treated water is in no way a birthright.

As to the question posed in the title of the thread: not likely, and thank God. Perhaps people are starting to realize that city government functions cost money and can't be performed at all if people keep insisting that expensive things [[like clean water coming out of a tap at your house) ought to be free just because rainbows and unicorns.

professorscott, Spot on post. Now if some of the people that read these posts will just read and try to understand the truth.

amen professorscott, amen professorscott

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...91efe5927fb92e
Someday, they're going to wonder how the super-wealthy in this country ever got away with rigging the game so they were able to take all the wealth earned during economic expansions. Maybe I should print out this conversation so that future generations can learn how it happened. All it took to take the wealth of the middle class was to brainwash just enough people into thinking it was the POOR who were taking their money. And so, year after year, as the noose tightened on the middle class, they increasingly blamed the people just below them for not working, for taking their hard-earned money. Well-meaning people kicked downward, even as a gigantic vacuum cleaner above them sucked up the profits of their labors, their tax money, finally their democracy, and gave it to the monied classes.

When this all comes to its conclusion, even you, my friends, or perhaps your children, will be taking that pickle bucket to the river. Who will there be to kick down against then?

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Originally Posted by professorscott

Sure it is, so if you don't like paying a water bill, here's what you do: go to any big restaurant and ask for what they call a "pickle bucket". It's a five-gallon white plastic open-top bucket with a metal handle that has a plastic grip so the handle doesn't hurt your hands when you carry it. A big restaurant is likely to have dozens of these wasting space and might give it to you for free.

Next: go down to the Detroit River someplace where you can safely get to the water line, such as parts of Belle Isle, and fill up the bucket and take the water home. No charge. Do this as often as you want.

What? You say. That's not clean water, and it's not at my house. Well, guess what, kids, whether you believe "water is our birthright" or not, when you tap in to a municipal system, you're not paying for water. You're paying for treatment and delivery, and the vastly expensive infrastructure which must be maintained in order to make possible the treatment and delivery. The delivery to your house of clean, treated water is in no way a birthright.

As to the question posed in the title of the thread: not likely, and thank God. Perhaps people are starting to realize that city government functions cost money and can't be performed at all if people keep insisting that expensive things [[like clean water coming out of a tap at your house) ought to be free just because rainbows and unicorns.

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Nailed it, absolutely nailed it. Thank you for explaining this :)

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Someday, they're going to wonder how the super-wealthy in this country ever got away with rigging the game so they were able to take all the wealth earned during economic expansions. Maybe I should print out this conversation so that future generations can learn how it happened. All it took to take the wealth of the middle class was to brainwash just enough people into thinking it was the POOR who were taking their money. And so, year after year, as the noose tightened on the middle class, they increasingly blamed the people just below them for not working, for taking their hard-earned money. Well-meaning people kicked downward, even as a gigantic vacuum cleaner above them sucked up the profits of their labors, their tax money, finally their democracy, and gave it to the monied classes.

When this all comes to its conclusion, even you, my friends, or perhaps your children, will be taking that pickle bucket to the river. Who will there be to kick down against then?

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So you're against people paying for water? Or against some people paying for water? Is there a certain income level? Please explain your plan. Where do we make up the shortage for all the people who don't have to pay?

One thing usage charges do is make it so you limit your usage. If water was free, I'd have the sprinkler system setup to run every morning and afternoon! We'd have to have an even larger capacity system that, guess what, no one has to pay for!

Same thing applies to electricity. When we make electricity a free right all those silly $5 light bulbs won't be bought, and we'll just buy the cheap stuff and use 3-4 time the energy. No longer will I turn my computer off, or set the AC 78 degrees, the AC's new setting is 68!

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Originally Posted by 48307

So you're against people paying for water? Or against some people paying for water? Is there a certain income level? Please explain your plan. Where do we make up the shortage for all the people who don't have to pay?

One thing usage charges do is make it so you limit your usage. If water was free, I'd have the sprinkler system setup to run every morning and afternoon! We'd have to have an even larger capacity system that, guess what, no one has to pay for!

Same thing applies to electricity. When we make electricity a free right all those silly $5 light bulbs won't be bought, and we'll just buy the cheap stuff and use 3-4 time the energy. No longer will I turn my computer off, or set the AC 78 degrees, the AC's new setting is 68!

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Hahaha. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. It's amazing that a country that can produce such technologically advanced devices should have the philosophical mindset of a clerk at 7-Eleven.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...91efe5927fb92e
... All it took to take the wealth of the middle class was to brainwash just enough people into thinking it was the POOR who were taking their money....

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Impressive graph. I Googled it and found a copy in Robert Reich's Facebook files. Here's what he had to say about it:

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Here's a chart showing what's happened during every economic expansion since World War II, and what portion of it went to the wealthiest 10 percent and the poorest 90 percent of households. As you can see, income growth every expansion has delivered more of its benefits to the top and less to the bottom 90. The drop in the bottom 90 percent's share really started to plummet in the 1982-1990 period, thanks to Reaganomics. Moreover, the real [[inflation-adjusted) incomes of the bottom 90 dropped for the first time in the "recovery" we're now in.

In other words, this is not a business cycle problem. We're dealing with the underlying structure of the economy, which is tilting ever more in the direction of the top and away from the vast majority. This is not sustainable. The choice is either fundamental reform or social unrest.

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[[emphasis mine.) This is not going to end well.:[[

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Hahaha. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. It's amazing that a country that can produce such technologically advanced devices should have the philosophical mindset of a clerk at 7-Eleven.

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You're saying it should be free, and I'm pointing out that you'll still need to pay, somehow, via some kind of tax. I'm also pointing out that when a product like water and electricity are free, that you're bound to use a lot more of it. In your world with free water, the current DWSD system would be insufficient to meet demand, especially in places where folks have sprinkler systems and like to have green lawns.

For example, take the lady that was in the news that ran up the huge water bill because her slumlord wouldn't fix the pipes. She wasted all that water because in her mind she didn't have to pay for it. If the DWSD was on top of it back then and forced it to pay up or get shut off, you know darn well those pipes either would have got fixed, or she would have moved out. It's a shitty situation because of the shitty landlord made worse because no accountability was in the situation.

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Originally Posted by bailey

You are a fascist, Koch brothers shill. Unlimited, clean water should be free to every citizen in these United States. The Declaration of Independence doesn't say we have to cough up a fee for the "life" part. What's next from you assholes in Kochistan? A fee for breathable air!?!

/sarc.

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Like I say to everyone in this forum. Water is a our birthright, not a constitutional right. Corporations can't make all products [[ especially filtered water free for everyone.) Existing technologies for public luxury fair costs money. If we make any product from cable TV to water free for everyone, then there is no need for barter. But in human nature people want to have what some have. Therefore we have to pay for luxury services even we have get clean filtered water from corporations.


Everyone who receive fascists products must pay their toll or cut off, plain and simple.

You pay to receive water services for you home long ago. Just pay your water bill. You using their technology that they pay their bills to receive.

For those who can't get clean water from the faucets, you can still get water from rain, lakes, rivers and oceans. If you know how to filter out the impurities. That is a real birthright of getting clean water as we ancestors did in the ancient days.

I think Duggan would garner a ton of respect , if he had the backbone to aggresively collect,
every dime owed to the Water Department from those that didn't pay in the past.
New Sheriff in town mentality --- cut out the nonsense, stop the race card dead in its tracks.
All people, regardless of ethnicity, race, sking color MUST pay for clean pressurized water on tap.

Don't like it - you have the right to go down to Detroit River daily with a bucket and get water.
You have the right to collect rain water falling from the sky, suck up puddles, etc.
Just don't hang your bare butt over the rim to take a dump or we'll fine you for indecency.
Yeah, that toilet part of the game runs on pressurized clean water, so pay up deadbeats.

Pay the water bill first ---before you put gas in the car, turn on the tv, or get a haircut.
Try living without water for 1 week and we'll see what you make a priority in your life.

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Originally Posted by 48307

You're saying it should be free, and I'm pointing out that you'll still need to pay, somehow, via some kind of tax. I'm also pointing out that when a product like water and electricity are free, that you're bound to use a lot more of it. In your world with free water, the current DWSD system would be insufficient to meet demand, especially in places where folks have sprinkler systems and like to have green lawns.

For example, take the lady that was in the news that ran up the huge water bill because her slumlord wouldn't fix the pipes. She wasted all that water because in her mind she didn't have to pay for it. If the DWSD was on top of it back then and forced it to pay up or get shut off, you know darn well those pipes either would have got fixed, or she would have moved out. It's a shitty situation because of the shitty landlord made worse because no accountability was in the situation.

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You don't have the slightest idea what I'm saying. I feel confident saying you have no idea what I'm talking about at all ...

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

You don't have the slightest idea what I'm saying. I feel confident saying you have no idea what I'm talking about at all ...

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Well, instead of elaborating your point and engaging in discussion you can instead take little jabs at me and insinuate that I lack the intelligence to understand your point. It makes the board a little less interesting that way though...

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Originally Posted by Willi

I think Duggan would garner a ton of respect , if he had the backbone to aggresively collect,
every dime owed to the Water Department from those that didn't pay in the past.
New Sheriff in town mentality --- cut out the nonsense, stop the race card dead in its tracks.
All people, regardless of ethnicity, race, sking color MUST pay for clean pressurized water on tap.

Don't like it - you have the right to go down to Detroit River daily with a bucket and get water.
You have the right to collect rain water falling from the sky, suck up puddles, etc.
Just don't hang your bare butt over the rim to take a dump or we'll fine you for indecency.
Yeah, that toilet part of the game runs on pressurized clean water, so pay up deadbeats.

Pay the water bill first ---before you put gas in the car, turn on the tv, or get a haircut.
Try living without water for 1 week and we'll see what you make a priority in your life.

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Funny, if we are out on a boat and I unzip and take a whiz over the side, that is perfectly legal. On the other hand, if my wife takes a whiz in a bucket and I pour it out over the side, I can get cited for polluting the waters.

Only in this city do people get riled up and protest water shut offs FOR NOT PAYING YOUR BILL. Do you want free electricity and internet too? Is cable television a birthright as well?

Pay your bill, you get water. Don't pay, you don't. Where did that philosophy ever change?

And for those who have been plunged into hard times for whatever reason, there are assistance programs to help pay the bill. Basically ANY utility will work with the customer on a payment plan to catch them up on late bills.

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Originally Posted by mikeg19

Only in this city do people get riled up and protest water shut offs FOR NOT PAYING YOUR BILL. Do you want free electricity and internet too? Is cable television a birthright as well?

Pay your bill, you get water. Don't pay, you don't. Where did that philosophy ever change?

And for those who have been plunged into hard times for whatever reason, there are assistance programs to help pay the bill. Basically ANY utility will work with the customer on a payment plan to catch them up on late bills.

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They are protesting because it works. People listen. Look, we're talking about it.

The future of Detroit will only come when protesters for absurd things are ignored.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

You don't have the slightest idea what I'm saying. I feel confident saying you have no idea what I'm talking about at all ...

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Because you're not saying anything. You're dodging the argument completely. It's non-sequitur. A logical response to "Everyone should have to pay for treated, filtered water" is not "Yeah but the rich are getting richer so they shouldn't"

I believe one can both be angry at the growing concentration of wealth in the hands of a few and still support payment of water bills. Then again, I'm not some partisan shill.

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Originally Posted by poobert

Because you're not saying anything. You're dodging the argument completely. It's non-sequitur. A logical response to "Everyone should have to pay for treated, filtered water" is not "Yeah but the rich are getting richer so they shouldn't"

I believe one can both be angry at the growing concentration of wealth in the hands of a few and still support payment of water bills. Then again, I'm not some partisan shill.

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It's called kicking down. Just commenting on how the nation will fall apart and you guys will still be kicking down. And I'm sure it will all make sense to you why you continue to do so.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

Sure it is, so if you don't like paying a water bill, here's what you do: go to any big restaurant and ask for what they call a "pickle bucket". It's a five-gallon white plastic open-top bucket with a metal handle that has a plastic grip so the handle doesn't hurt your hands when you carry it. A big restaurant is likely to have dozens of these wasting space and might give it to you for free.

Next: go down to the Detroit River someplace where you can safely get to the water line, such as parts of Belle Isle, and fill up the bucket and take the water home. No charge. Do this as often as you want.

What? You say. That's not clean water, and it's not at my house. Well, guess what, kids, whether you believe "water is our birthright" or not, when you tap in to a municipal system, you're not paying for water. You're paying for treatment and delivery, and the vastly expensive infrastructure which must be maintained in order to make possible the treatment and delivery. The delivery to your house of clean, treated water is in no way a birthright.

As to the question posed in the title of the thread: not likely, and thank God. Perhaps people are starting to realize that city government functions cost money and can't be performed at all if people keep insisting that expensive things [[like clean water coming out of a tap at your house) ought to be free just because rainbows and unicorns.

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Of course! Water remains our birthright, this means we can seek free water from rivers, glaciers, cacti, lakes, rivers, seas and oceans. We get free water from dead planets, comets and or even Planet Mars. [[ Not from living alien planets for its their birthright.) It's a human right to pay for fascist corp. water, not a human right to receive free water from corporations while other hard working Americans had to pay for water service.

Keep on protesting folks, governments and the courts will not pass any law tell fascists corps. to give Americans free water to their homes and businesses. It least the best things in life are free.

Government for the people , by the people, i.e. everyone pays their FAIR share.
In days of old when the Tax Man came for his payment, there were dire consequences.

Do people that don't pay their utility bills even bother to vote? I seriously doubt it.

Vote or not, democrat, republican, socialist, liberal, treehugger, petasmoocher, whatnot
--- they all get water in their toilets to flush, AND they must pay for the Privledge.
Yes, I say privledge, because privledges can be taken away from society.

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Originally Posted by anonJD

Do people that don't pay their utility bills even bother to vote? I seriously doubt it.

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Maybe they don't vote but they sure do scream loud. They were heard all the way to the UN! Now that is some loud screaming and crying. LOL

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Originally Posted by FlyOnTheWall

Maybe they don't vote but they sure do scream loud. They were heard all the way to the UN! Now that is some loud screaming and crying. LOL

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That's one issue for you: the poor are likely to protest but not vote. For some reason - this has been studied to death; Google it, you don't have to take my word - poverty is strongly correlated with low voting rates. I have no idea why; I'm just stating a well known fact.

People in metro Detroit area need to understand what the difference between :
a.) a privledge
b.) an entitlement
c.) a human right

Ignorance - lacking knowledge or awareness .
If folks barely passed high school they simply choose the first term someone yells and run with it.
A mob mentality ensues, and none of them really know what or why they are doing what they do

The coming winter-- and how any water main bursts are handled-- will be an important test of the new stewardship of the water department.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

That's one issue for you: the poor are likely to protest but not vote. For some reason - this has been studied to death; Google it, you don't have to take my word - poverty is strongly correlated with low voting rates. I have no idea why; I'm just stating a well known fact.

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That is an interesting point of view for me. Not one that I will totally agree with though as I live in a community that always has a fairly large turnout for voting and the community that I live in has a lower median income than Detroit. It seems to me that if Detroit is poor then my community is even poorer by about a thousand dollars a year and we have a good turnout.

Trust me, I'm not saying you are wrong but it doesn't seem to hold true in my community. I wonder why that would be.

You have me a thinking about it.

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Originally Posted by Willi

Ignorance - lacking knowledge or awareness .
If folks barely passed high school they simply choose the first term someone yells and run with it.
A mob mentality ensues, and none of them really know what or why they are doing what they do

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Hmmm... I'll have to think about this in reference to my response to professorscott above. The difference between Detroit and my little community in northern Michigan. I never see a mob mentality here.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's called kicking down. Just commenting on how the nation will fall apart and you guys will still be kicking down. And I'm sure it will all make sense to you why you continue to do so.

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I'm with poobert here, but if suggesting that poor people need to pay their routine bills even though they are poor is kicking down [[it isn't) then you are correct that probably people will continue to kick down indefinitely. I'm very much in favor of subsidies for the poor, but the DWSD isn't really in a position to provide them.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

They are protesting because it works. People listen. Look, we're talking about it.

The future of Detroit will only come when protesters for absurd things are ignored.

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It seems that there is a huge gap between the perception that large numbers of Detroiters are marching in protest, and the reality that very few Detroiters are actually protesting.

The water shutoff protest was mostly about the ACLU, National Nurses United, and the Netroots conference that was being held at Cobo. A significant amount of the protesters were Netroots attendees, and not even Detroiters.

I live in the city, and the only people that I know who were at the protest were from NYC and LA. They were attending the Netroots conference and participated in the protest. I don't know any Detroiters who actually protested.

We have seen the same thing with the media frenzy around the EM protest at city hall, which drew tons of media, but only about 30-40 actual protesters, and the Belle Isle protest, which also was widely publicized and covered, but only drew 20-30 protesters.

The perception and the reality are completely different.