I thought this was interesting commentary about the state of the city over the past several years...
http://www.bridgemi.com/guest-commen...gentrification
I thought this was interesting commentary about the state of the city over the past several years...
http://www.bridgemi.com/guest-commen...gentrification
There is job creation in Detroit, but in much slower pace. It this moment in most from Midtown to Gilberttown. It's folks from the suburbs have all the best jobs and folks from Detroit and other poor areas the dirty jobs [[ like cleaning up their mess from the circular files.)
As for Gentrification in Detroit is speeding up thanks the Gilbert Gang. More exotic stores are popping up like mushrooms in Gilberttown Detroit and Midtown areas. While poor folks are put out and hitting 8 Mile Rd.
Detroit is getting better. White folks want their city back and blacks and Hispanics are being pushed out. My dad has told me this and it has come to pass.
It's not a lack of jobs,.. it's a lack of anyone that can DO a job.
I'm a business owner in Detroit,.. and I tried for 11 years to find anyone that could mow lawn. Finally had to hire a company from the burbs to do it.
I'm not making that up.
In 35 years of working in Detroit and Highland Park,.. I haven't met any local that could use/read a tape measure.
I had a co-worker who was very involved with Focus Hope until he quit for roughly the same reason. He was involved in creating, first, the remedial curriculum so students could get into the machinists program. Then he helped create the pre-remedial program, as applicants couldn't even get through the basic level. Neither program worked very well, but instead of revamping them, he claimed, they tried creating further programs, and blamed him for not making the remedial programs easy enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdd
Keep in mind we're talking middle school level mathematics and basic reading comprehension.
Combine the posts above and you have the bigger picture of the problem nationwide. It's a mismatch of jobs for the available and willing workforce. Too many people don't want to WORK to collect a paycheck. Or they don't know how to do basic tasks and are not willing or able to learn.
When I started, I would take any job I could find whether it was assembling bowling trophies or scooping and stacking red hot steel pieces as they dropped from behind a forging hammer. I didn't really care.
Today, nobody would be willing to either for less than $20/hr while I was doing it for $5 or $6
There's another complication also. Not too long ago, a major company posted opening for work-from-home Customer Service. I was ready to apply and then hit one detail. They insisted on a commitment to 8 hours straight 5 days a week minimum, subject to extra hours ant their discretion.
I could have committed to 40 hours a week, but not necessarily the way they demanded. I might have needed 4 hour blocks for example due to physical issues of sitting in one place. And I would have needed a more flexible schedule of coming and going.
When you have people working on site, they are better prepared and able to work set schedules. Work-from-home positions need more flexibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBMcB
The problem as I see it had to do with programs like AFDC, which used to pay mothers for having illegitimate children. That program was reformed by Engler in the late '90's,.. but a lot of those sorts of programs are still in effect at reduced levels.
Hundreds of thousands of Michigan children [[in the 20-45 year old age range especially) grew up in households where mom sat around the house, and received a stack of government checks on the first of the month. To them that is "normal". Checks just come in the mail from this magical government thing.
As such,.. they viewed school as truly useless. They know a $5 bill from a $20,.. and knew they only had to scratch their name on the back of a check to cash it at the bank.
So they really truly thought they had no use for school, and I've always had a lot of sympathy for the teachers that tried in vain to teach them.
Now there is this population of completely uneducated people that believe deep down that working is for suckers. So unless you're going to pay them big bucks for doing almost nothing,... they're simply not interested. Then when push comes to shove and they realize there isn't an endless supply of free checks [[applies to males especially),.. they aren't qualified to do anything, and often can;t be taught because they lack basic reading and math skills that just take too long to teach.
I grew up watching my dad go to work 40+ hours a week. So to me,.. working 40-60 hours a week just seemed normal.
I share your concern that programs discourage market participation. But I also believe we absolutely must care for everyone. Social programs are critical, but we've built them all wrong. Great in theory -- but mostly ineffective and counter-produtive in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdd
I wonder if that is the difference when it comes to work effort,if one is not taught in their younger years then all of the sudden being thrown out there so to speak.
total amount of collected benefits is $24k a year,why now grass when you can sit at home.
My sisters both have masters in child physiology,they never worked a day in their life,maybe because my parents being old school where the woman was not expected to earn,upper middle class,be a male and you want a bicycle you better grab that snow shovel or mower and earn it.
My first paying job was at 12 cleaning up the trash weekend at the drive in movie theater.There was a stigma back then though,you were expected to pay your own way and eccept nothing from nobody.
In my business it blows my mind the amount of people that actually expect you to provide your goods and skills for free,and they do this without a second thought like it is owed to them.But good luck finding somebody to work for free for you.
It is a mess everywhere but not contained to one age group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
The original intent was as a hand up and not a career,not so much now but not to long ago it was more advailable to some then others,which in turn created what we have today,the focus should be on how to reverse that cycle but it does not seem like a priority,unless it is happening in another country,then it becomes a no holds barred.
Somewhere along the line we lost site of our priorities.
I'm not sure when you were doing those jobs or if you already baked inflation into your numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
If you were getting paid $6/hour in 1970 that's the same as getting paid $38.70/hour today:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703
$0.93/hour in 1970 would be equivalent to $6.00 today:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703
The places where they have implemented a $15 minimum wage require paying the equivalent of $2.33/hour in 1970:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703
As we get older and we compare what we made and what people are asking for today it's very easy to underestimate how powerfully inflation affects the equation.
Oldest W2 I can find right now is '82 and it shows $14K, but I don't know if that was a full 2,080 hours or not. By then, I had owned a house for several years.
I also found a 1099-Int showing $85 in interest earned. I know I didn't have much in the bank then. I don't get that now on a 5 figure balance.
The working age people in Detroit without jobs, by and large, are not unemployed for lack of jobs. Many can't or won't get hired even when lots of places are looking for help. There is a large pool of people in Detroit who fall into one or more of the following three categories:
1) No functional high school education
2) No work history whatsoever
3) Unreadiness to work [[this can be substance abuse, inability/unwillingness to arrive at work on time consistently, act professionally, etc)
Even when projects are hiring in the city or nearby, that large unemployed pool is not full of people who can be employed. The city, county and various church and community orgs work with people on all three of the problem areas. Some people break out and enter the mainstream workforce. But many don't, and no one can do it for someone else. The city can't make you get your GED, learn a trade, and show up on time for your interview. And it certainly can't make you work hard once you get hired. Success or failure is up to the individual. We should always try to help, but we need to be realistic. Some people will never accept a hand up. My uncle John has been a lifelong loser. He had everything handed to him [[education, job opportunities, social connections, etc). But he liked to sleep in, gamble, and drink. So he is now a bitter and broke old man, and he spitefully resents the world for it. But there are people who are willing to try, so we should help them.
Also we should embrace every possible low wage job that might come to the city. People without a job history, skills and education are eligible only to be hired in low wage manual labor, retail, or service industry positions. They can move up once in them, if they are good. But when you take away the bottom rung, it is not likely people will climb the ladder.
There *IS* a lack of jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdd
The fact that we still have a ton of young, educated people still fleeing the state to places such as Tennessee, California, Minnesota, etc. in order to find lucrative career opportunities supports that claim.
As far as the situation you faced, you simply weren't looking hard enough. I found the person that has done my yard work for the past couple of years on Craigslist, and I found the person before that on Craigslist. They both lived in Detroit or did business in Detroit.
Part of the problem is that these "low wage jobs" tend to be dead-end. Since in the Great Recession in particular, companies are no longer interested in training upward and will only award hard-working low wage employees with more work. Long gone are the days in which you could be promoted to CEO after paying your dues, at least not without a college degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn
Very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by bust
It's not just the lack of jobs either, but the lack of good-paying jobs.
In reality, only being able to find a job at McDonalds or Meijer part-time [[or a temporary job) is just as bad as relying on government assistance, if not worse.
The title of the article does not reflect the content of the article.
It seems you have a very, very, very pessimistic outlook on the local economy, and the path that the city and metro area is going. Your outlook has merit.
But this article does not even address a lack of jobs at all. For instance, nowhere in this article does it state that college graduates are fleeing the state for Tennessee, California, Minnesota. I'm not saying it's not true, but this article doesn't talk about that. It's just another article complaining about gentrification, white people moving back to save Detroit, and the issues of the native population being ignored.
If you believe that there are a lack of jobs, can you provide an article that talks about that?
Meh, it was an opinion written in a column.
What worries me even more is when you have a professional economist,that would have to have a college degree,I think anyways,says this.....
Buying and renovating property alone does not improve a local economy.
so why did the words shrink ?
But I guess that is how life is,you take those first crap,low paying jobs and find out it sucks not to be able to worry about paying the electricity or water so you make the sacrifice and take up night school to make yourself more marketable some will have that drive and some will not but expect the same payscale without the sacrifice.
Just like the whole collage thing some bust butt working to pay their way through collage and others think it is owed to them.
Regardless of the merits of AFDC, it was a federal program which was ended by Congress and Bill Clinton in 1993/1994, not by Engler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdd
Can't dispute your experience, but people come by asking to mow the lawn all the time. Also shovel snow. Not all are equally good at it, but certainly some of them do a good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdd
I know a half dozen people who started out in "dead end" low wage jobs. If you show up to work on time and do what you're told, you get promoted fairly rapidly, as you are ahead of a lot of others in the labor pool. If you show some initiative and interest in your job, you get promoted faster. You might not be making enough to support a family, at first at least, but you'll make enough to live on.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
This is what entry level "dead end" jobs are for. Nobody is going to hire you at $20/hour if they don't already know you are going to be a decent worker. You prove that by holding down a crappy job at $10/hour for a couple of years.
When reading her entire column in context, it makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
What about it exactly "worries" you?
Fair points.Quote:
Originally Posted by masterblaster
My asssumption would be the author felt there was no reason to go into details about the lack of jobs in ad-nauseam [[as this SHOULD be common knowledge for any Detroiter) in yet another article in order to acknowledge the lack of jobs as being a major issue.
The numbers behind Detroit's jobs crisis
http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...isis/79304512/
Yes, that's right. Sorta breaks up the standard narrative that only the right signals reduction in welfare. Clinton for sure spearheaded welfare reform during his administration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilbert
Combine that with the inability to pass a drug test and you're even more marginalized from the ability to work [[what few jobs there are)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn
So true, a cousin of mine wouldn't even apply for a job that I informed him about because he knew he wouldn't pass the drug test [[he likes to smoke weed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
Commuting to and from my jobs and church, I routinely go through Detroit, Hazel Park, Madison Heights, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Southfield, and I see ALOT of help wanted signs.
In high tech, we mainly lack Electronics Engineers, both software and hardware. I have had open requisitions for months without a bite. Even accomplished Mechanical Engineers are hard to find.
We do have plenty of middle managers. This is becoming a real problem in Automotive where the only promotional path in the technical field barely exceeds that of a manager. Very few Chief Engineers but plenty of Directors and VP's.
IMO, we lack leadership and especially leadership that fosters and encourages entrepreneurialship. Instead, we [[well the entire world since industrialization), have adopted an educational system that focusses on "getting a job" rather than creating value. So long as Michigan remains tethered to the past, the competitive technology gap will only expand.
A possible strategy to get a job might be to avoid drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
This is one of the few countries in the world where jobs are everywhere. Yeah, you're not going to make $25 hour if you can't read or write but there are plentiful jobs to make $10 hour at and use it as a stepping stone to something better hopefully.
I recall in the 80s reading that too many students were going for MBAs simply because that's where the money was going to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyS
I guess this situation was foreseeable.
I also read that a Bachelors Degree is looked at as a High School Diploma in many companies now. You basically need a MBA or higher, in a lot of major companies, whatever they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
Right on but this is the old way which must be replaced quickly if manufacturing is to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
MBA's bring little value to a manufacturing company where competition lies strictly within the realm of technology. MBA does not provide the talent required nor the foresight to anticipate future trends. A top heavy company will always consume itself by these beaurocrats seeking self preservation and promotion at the expense of innnovation and productivity.
Here are some solutions:
Reward innovation through profit sharing. US companies rarely pay Inventors >$1,000 for submitting Patents. Even rarer to provide proceeds from successful Patents
Reward based on results rather than seniority. This will eliminate the notion of job security and continue to flush out non performers whilst attracting accountable innovators with ambition
Foster and empower individuality. The "Team work" philosophy is over rated and only reduces the team to the lowest common denominator
BTW, this is not a new way of thinking. It was the way to go only a few generations ago.
Even the most basic, minimum wage job is almost impossible to attain for someone without rudimentary reading and math skills. It's easy for a bunch of us to sit around and type into a computer how easy it is to find a job, but when you can't even read? Good luck.
And then we have people robbing non-profits of thier equipment to train people in the city. https://drmm.org/donate/robbery-upda...ery0460-email1
I agree with all of this, but would add that not all the available jobs are worth having, which is part of the reason why they go unfilled. That fact is not always mentioned when we talk about unskilled workers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn
No, I'm not in any of the situations you named, but I've been casually looking for a weekend job. Most part time jobs I see are flex schedule meaning, you have no schedule and should be glad to come to work at the drop of a hat. To a person with skills, this is unacceptable. To a person without skills, it's unworkable. You can't schedule child care the day of or depend on the bus or a friend to get you to work at odd hours.
This scheduling is common because so many places are running with absolute skeleton crews because the decree from on high is to do without rather than have five minutes of overlap. If you want to see this in action, pop into a chain grocery store the day before a cooking holiday. There are 20 cashier's stations and five cashiers, up from the normal three.
Those are the jobs that a person with average skills should be able to get, hold, and eke out a living on, but even they seem to be harder to come by than they used to be.
I fully agree there are issues with the workforce, but there are also structural issues that don't get mentioned.
This is somewhat funny and very behind the times. I live in the burbs but gentleman who has cut my lawn for the last 3 years lives in Detroit. On my routes around the city in the last 3-4 years I have observed a tremendous increase in landscaping companies based in Detroit. They are not quite on the level size wise compared to the very competitive eastside companies but they are getting very close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdd
On the tape measure side in the 55 years I have lived in the metro area I have barely met any residents of the burbs who can deal with a tape measure. Tape measure use/read are taught not innate. Instead of grousing about "knowing" how to use a tape measure, why not teach how to use one and create a better employee!
Yes, companies can require the master level education where the bachelors [[depending what studied) was formally sufficient because there are so many unemployed with Master degrees!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by p69rrh51
In the north and west burbs during the currant expansion there has been a surge in subcontracting to Detroit based contractors in the non union fields. I have had more than one professional associate explain how well it is working out in the quality of the work and especially the ability of these contractors to get the work finished on schedule. They may not be big companies but in the end that is the least important issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
An economist should understand that it is all a bunch of pieces in a puzzle and to make the big picture it all connects.
5 people buy and renovate a house it adds residents,tax base,at least $100k in the local economy and jobs.
Somebody walking by sees a house painter at work and hires on as a apprentice,the people renovating the house may open a local business adding more jobs.
Maybe an economist can break it down and say .. this is the impact of verses writing it off.
Common sense says renovation in its self is not a determining factor but it shure does drive and impact the local economy directly as in cash in pocket.
It is supply and demand,if the demand for electricians is there but not filled then the training centers will ramp up.
Look what happened with computers back in the late 80s and early 90s ,they said that computer techs were going to be needed and everybody and their brothers cat were going to IT school. Of course now they get replaced by cheaper foreign labor and thrown to the curb like a used tire,but most schools at that time dumped their skills classes and trained everybody to be computer oriented.
The point of the article was that people are moving into the nice areas that are already fixed up, and not actually fixing up new areas:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
What is occurring in Detroit is not true gentrification; white suburbanites are moving into existing middle-class and affluent neighborhoods such as Midtown, Lafayette Park, Boston-Edison, Corktown, Indian Village, Palmer Woods, North Rosedale, Fitzgerald, Grandmont and East English Village. Some of these neighborhoods qualify for a rent or mortgage subsidy by large employers. Before the 2008 recession, some homes in Indian Village and Palmer Woods rose to nearly 2 million dollars in value. These homes and apartments have already been renovated and polished.
Sounds like she'd be thrilled if more people were buying and renovating in other areas.
But is that true? Detroit might be unique in that even the better areas had distressed homes and fair to large amounts of inventory. It only makes sense that those fill up first.Quote:
Originally Posted by archfan
And there is definitely spillover, especially now that the best areas are filling up or pricing out. Virginia Park, Glynn and LaSalle have activity around Boston-Edison. North End and Milwaukee Junction are also getting attention as Midtown fills in.
I still want to see the following in Detroit proper: Wal-Mart, Target.
General Electric. Tesla. Google.
You are so right. The "better areas" she refers to pretty much all had significant problems quite recently [[maybe not Palmer Woods). There were distressed/vacant/foreclosed homes in them all. There clearly is spillover into the areas you mentioned; I'd add Islandview to the list. I'm curious: is there anything good going on where Morningside abuts EEV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai_Hulud
I mostly wanted to clarify what the article was saying. I tend to agree with you. Even if folks from out of town grabbed all the rehabbed houses, there would still be demand to continue rehabbing in adjacent areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai_Hulud
Somebody walking by sees a house painter at work and steals the tools out of his truck while he is busy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
+5 .......Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
That's about the size of it. Same thing for landscapers. It's why most of them invest in covered trailers now, and keep them locked until the job is done. Damn shame it has to be that way, but it's the world we live in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
Lol In Tampa I had $15,000 in contractor tools stolen,while I was in the house up on the second story,in less then 15 minutes,the PD detective called me two weeks later and said he was on vacation and it was probably to late to pull fingerprints.
Disfunction knows no state lines.
Like a joke that was told to me....I was in Florida and saw a bumper sticker on a parked car that read " I miss Detroit" So I broke the window, stole the radio and left a note that said, "I hope this helps"
My question as well re: EEV/Morningside. Grew up on Bedford - neighborhood is a bit rough now, and am hoping that the new interest in Detroit starts to find this place - nice houses - brick and not at all cookie-cutter.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
[[By the way - pet peeve of mine - where did "Morningside" come from? The whole area whose streets are named after English shires is called East English Village - was as far back as I can remember, for instance, Bedford, Devonshire, Haverhill, Buckingham, Balfour, Chatsworth, etc - all the way over by Clark School - thats EEV - someone just invented "Morningside". Kinda annoys me - like them changing the name of Sears Tower for money...)
Just a wild-ass, Google-inspired, guess: Morningside, Edinburgh.Quote:
Originally Posted by takascar
That could be completely wrong.
Another WAG, but I have always assumed it was because it was once the eastern edge of the city -- and the sun rises over that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
The article misses many key points I am a business owner looking for an industrial building 13,000 to 20,000 sq ft to lease.
I am presently located in Macomb County if I wanted to move to Detroit there are no buildings on the east side that fit my needs while in Macomb county there to many to count.
My skilled workers live from Warren to Capac and have no interest driving or working in Detroit so to relocate to Detroit I would have to rebuild my workforce it takes me a few months just to find a worker with the skills I feel we can build on and from there it takes about two years or training.
Most of the new jobs I see coming into the city are trendy restaurants and stores, blue collar office jobs.
nowhere in Detroit do I see independent shop owners bringing new jobs into the city for skilled workers that program and run cnc machines, build aerospace tooling and other skilled labor type industries that are booming in places like 23 mile rd in Shelby Twp or Auburn hills.
I can not see Detroit reaching its full potential without these types of jobs moving back into the city
Sad but too often true. One must be vigilant to not be taken by thievery!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
That's a good summary of the challenges the City of Detroit and older industrial cities face. And you didn't even mention the non-resident income taxes that would have to be paid and extortionate insurances you might face.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddaydetroit
Detroit cannot compete for your business without significant incentives. It has to look elsewhere and play with the hand it is dealt.
Detroit's appeal is big city living. Major league sports, theaters, major events, casinos, dramatic river front, art and culture AND your works site all out your door or a quick Qline ride away. Living in the big city is just as appealing to many as the country calm of Capac is to your workers. There's nothing like if for 250 miles, except Cleveland maybe.
Other than glitzware from Shinola and the like, Green Zone Detroit [Downtown to New Center] produces few tangible products. The vast majority of employees are skilled information workers -- electron shifters -- that fill the towers of GM, Quicken, WSU and others. Even the ones who do physical work casino workers, waitresses, janitors and the like are not involved in material objects.
Where Detroit might compete for your business is when you replace your workers with robots. Might not be your case but it's happening big time as I am guessing you know.
40% of Detroit is functionally illiterate, so its very difficult training the population to do machinist jobs. This lack of education/skills can be blamed on a lot of things. IE: Slow transition of skill emphasis from high paying factory jobs that didn't need reading and writing or high mathematical skills. Some people would blame family and the Detroit school system. Others Michigan's highest incarceration rate in the Midwest. How are those kids learning when Dad is locked up on a low level drug charge? Others even blame welfare. Yet welfare is all but gone. Talk about beating a dead horse.
While I too experience some poor work ethic around a lawn company a friend gave to a Detroiter who then neglected the business, these unfortunate people are out there- I also know the other side of things. That many minimum wage jobs like picking up trash, building trophies or working security all night long are also jobs where the business engages in wage theft, neglects OT laws and makes employees pay for uniforms and all other sorts of stealing or cost shifting to the employee. The same employee who's illiterate and unskilled, is being mistreated and manipulated a good chunk of the time as well. Just the other day I met a woman in Bay City who was pushed to work two hours even when she had the day off!
Let's not moan about lazy people in Detroit and not know that the culture of being honest with workers, paying them decently is lost from the days of "hard work" as well. Not only have real wages declined tremendously, but so have benefits, so have vacation days, so have everything else. The working environment has changed a lot.