http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/loca...22849842-story
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"The paramedics came and worked on him," said the witness. "He was shot and bloodied, yelling and screaming."
He did not have a problem terrorizing the tellers or customers but yet lies crying in the street about being shot.
Good job on the CCL.
I'm sure the guy will sue and someone will take the case.
File this under the "oh well" category. Screw bank robbers.
Probably sue the guy who shot him. Hope that guy likes paying attorney feesQuote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Regardless, it sounds like justice has been served. Let's hope that the results are just -- and that we don't look too hard for a reason to condemn the shooter and celebrate the robber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/loca...23154174-story
maybe people should stop trying to steal shit that isn't theirs...
Are CCW holders required to respond to any crime nearby? Are CCW holders defacto deputies of the law?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Great; now when I walk in my credit union not only do I have to worry about some moron making a withdraw by force -- now I have to worry about some idiot with a John Wayne complex and an itchy trigger finger.
I know it's super frustrating to live in this area with all of the crime and crap -- but I don't want Ronnie Reagan . Clint Eastwood walking around looking for targets, either -- which is just what these gun fucks will try and do.
Sure is sexy now but let's see attitudes when some poor innocent person/s paints the walls with their brains because of some gun fuck playing vigilantly.
I never, ever carry in a bank. Money is never so valuable that I would trade my precious commodity -- my life -- for it. Everything but LIFE is replaceable.
Perps are looking to get in and out as quick as they can and not looking turn it into some frickin' Dog Day Afternoon special on the tube, for crying out loud.
How about this: Let's properly fund police and fire.
Is that too complicated of a concept for folks around here?
Or are people just starving government to the point where we live in the fucking wild west -- which is actually the type of "full Freedom" Baggers are looking for.
You can kiss the whole "Michigan/Detroit Rising" BS down the drain when folks start trading bullets around here.
Stay classy, Michigan.
I think the lesson is to stay clear of dangerous Warren, where the bullets are flying :cool:
That will be a lesson to the hoodies. Do not rob in the suburbs!
Maybe not "sexy" as you put it but I'm sick of the shit I see on the news every day, and the only brains being "painted" are innocent people pumping gas etc. Apparently this guy had had enough too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
sounds like the "idiot" hit what he was aiming at [[maybe needed some practice to hit center of mass) and I think he was defending his life, not his money [[which is insured).
[QUOTE=Gpwrangler;489531]Maybe not "sexy" as you put it but I'm sick of the shit I see on the news every day, and the only brains being "painted" are innocent people pumping gas etc. Apparently this guy had had enough too. sounds like the "idiot" hit what he was aiming at [[maybe needed some practice to hit center of mass) and I think he was defending his life, not his money [[which is insured).[
/QUOTYou may want to remember a mass shooting that took place in Waco, Texas on October 16, 1991. A killer rammed his truck into Lubys with total intent of killing as many people as he possibly could. . A customer named Suzanna Hupp was there eating her lunch with her parents when the shooter rammed his truck in the front plate glass. She testified in the trial that she was only about 100 feet away from her gun in her car and that she could have picked him off the second that he drove thru the resturant. as a result , 23 killed and 27 woundedsometimes it pays to have people with CCW in your area ,you never know what could happen in the blink of an eye...........After this incident the governor worked to get CCWs passed.......
sadly, Both of her parents were shot and killed........she stated she was afraid at the time to carry it, because she was a medical professional and that if she got caught carrying, she would lose her license............
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
You might want to try using the search term "shot or killed in a bank robbery" and see what pops up for just this week.
Way more innocents then bank robbers were killed.
People are to liberal? You want to provide police protection for the bank robber,poor guy got shot.
As it clearly shows a armed bank robber has no intention of putting his weapon down while you reason him and find out his political preferences.In reality by the time you read the first 3 words I posted you would have been dead because that is how much time you have to make that decision.
LEO cannot be everywhere all of the time and no matter how much funding they receive they will not be able to offer personal bodyguard protection for everybody.
There was a LEO killed chasing a bank robber I would think his family would have preferred somebody else had taken the robber out first.
In Fla maybe there has not been a drop in crime because of CWP but there has been a large savings of tax money.
I think Michigan is staying classy by allowing those to protect themselves and not allowing a thug to control.
and I would be willing to bet you will think twice about punching one of those "gun *ucks" in the head.It is kinda hard to determine a classy state when one uses certain words.
No and No.Quote:
Originally Posted by trstar
Actually CCW [[Carrying Concealed Weapon) is not the right term. It is CPL [[Concealed Pistol License).
Anyhow, no, we are not required to respond to crimes, and have absolutely no more police powers than you do. What the license does is gives us the right to conceal a weapon on our person or vehicle.
Michigan is an 'Open Carry' state, which means we all have the right to carry a pistol out in the open. For example, in a holster, on your belt. If you have a CPL, you can cover it up, and you can also get into a car, and leave it on your hip.
If you do not have a CPL, you must leave it visible at all times, and when you get in a vehicle, you have to put it in a case, unloaded, and out of reach [[like in a trunk).
We ALL have the right to defend ourselves, but if the robber was not a threat to the shooter, then the shooter is going to have a long, legal road ahead of him.
I wish him luck.
Since we are posting news stories, not the same justice ending you are trying to paint. CCW should be for personal protection, not those looking to be "heros".
'Heroic' action to try and stop Vegas killers
Joseph Wilcox went to Walmart Sunday morning to return an Internet modem.
Instead, he became the third victim of a violent husband-and-wife shooting spree in Las Vegas that left two police officers dead, as well as the shooters.
Police on Monday described Wilcox, 31, as "heroic" for trying to confront the shooters with his concealed handgun as they entered the store. But his family described him as a quiet man who wanted to be a police officer and didn't always carry a gun.
"It hasn't set in yet," Wilcox's mother, Debra Wilcox, told KTNV-TV in Las Vegas. "I just know he's not coming home. I keep looking for him to walk in that door. But he's not ever going to do that again."
Wilcox had bought several modems to try to fix an internet problem at his family's home and was returning one of those modems Sunday, family members told KTNV-TV.
MORE:
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/9065...-450315920.jpg
USA TODAYPolice release details of murderous Las Vegas rampage
Across the parking lot from the Walmart, Jerad and Amanda Miller shot and killed two Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Officers inside a pizzeria at about 11:22 a.m. Sunday, Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said at a press conference.
The couple then walked across the parking lot and into the Walmart. Jerad Miller fired one shot into the air and ordered everyone to leave, warning "this is a revolution" and police were on their way, McMahill said.
Wilcox, near a checkout counter, told a friend he was going to confront the shooter, he said.
If the robber pulled a gun he was a threat. Banks have video; should be a 5 minute trial as long as the jury is not all bleeding hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Frey
The shooting happened outside the bank, as the robber was fleeing. He was no longer a threat to the bank customers. Again, I wish the shooter luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
I'd say file this topic under non-detroitQuote:
Originally Posted by 48307
Hey, retired DPD here. Much as I applaud the shooter and condemn the shootee, I must say.....if your life is not in imminent danger, DON'T FRIGGIN SHOOT!. The award of a civilian jury is the least of your worries. That's not from a moralistic point of view, that's from a legal point of view.
I remember one DPD officer about forty years back....Jerry O'Reilly......was in a bank with his young son when a holdup occurred. He went to take action, and was shot in the back by the robber's partner, of whom O'Reilly was unaware. I still cry over that one.
Nope. It's a suburb just like any other. Belongs right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by the rock
If this case is prosecuted in Macomb County, there will be no issue with the person who shot the robber. Warren and Macomb County will not fall into the trap you have in Wayne County where the criminal works the system and puts everyone else on the defensive. The Mayor of Warren was on the news today saying the person who shot the robber will be honored. They should have a parade for him as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Frey
He was a threat to the guy he pulled a gun on. Whether he was fleeing, getting his oil changed, attending a protest, or eating at the pancake house, pointing a gun is a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Frey
Thank God Warren doesn't put up with this shit.
Doesn't seem like a good career move. I'm sure the guy had the right intentions but there's a good chance his life is going to get complicated big time. I wouldn't have done it, banks have plenty of money, 11K isn't going to hurt them at all.
To be an unpaid security guard and placing yourself in mortal danger was not a wise move.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
I almost think him shooting the robber had nothing to do with the money. I think it had a lot more to do with him feeling helpless in his own neighborhood and feeling the need to strike back at the violence that threatens it. People are fed up watching their neighborhoods fall to crime caused by fearless hoodlums who strike anywhere and anytime. Watching the neighborhoods turn ghetto that they grew up in due to unchecked violence which has spread into the suburbs from Detroit. People who can't afford to move aren't going to give up without a fight. I would expect to see more of these kind of incidents in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
This is where I see a problem. I have no feelings one way or the other about the person that shot the bank robber.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
But what happens when all the people out there who want their 15 minutes of fame decide that this is a perfect vehicle to propel them into that position. What happens down the road, when someone pulls a gun in a bank, demands money, and 3 or 4 people draw weapons in a crowded space. Each of them wanting to become an honored citizen of a crime weary city. A hero.
Sad scenario.
That and perps become antsyer, and shoot the first person that sneezes during the robbery. Still, I'm getting a little tired of being the victim.Quote:
Originally Posted by old guy
Again, a far reach. One person defended himself [[well, two if you count the guy who shot the person trying to steal his car) in a sea of crime and illegally-carried weapons in Detroit. Most people who take a CPL course are taught the repercussions of using deadly force. Actually thinking that 4 or 5 people are going to hang out at banks waiting to shoot it out with a thief is ridiculous paranoia. I know quite a few people who carry, and unlike the [[illegally carrying) asshole who tried to rob the bank, you wouldn't know they were licensed even if you asked. On the other hand, criminals who think "it's Detroit/Warren, I'll get away with it" can now consider a new range of possibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by old guy
Yes, the criminal assumes sitting ducks in most scenerios. Indeed new possibilities are arising!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...arren/35429196
Real credible perp. Story just keeps getting better.
Better for Geoff Fieger or Venn Johnson perhaps to sign him up start suing everyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Are they going to charge the citizen? I would think not as it'd be a PR disaster, but from a real actual law perspective, you can use lethal force in self defense if you're in reasonable fear of death or GBH [[either directly or to the people there) ...in other words, if the bad guy has a realistic chance of capping you [[or other customers).Quote:
The bank employees filled the bag with an undisclosed amount of money and Mann started to walk out of the bank, according to the complaint.
The customer, who has a concealed pistol license, shot the Mann several times, police said.
if the guy is running away....not sure how he still claims self defense at this point. The threat is over.....guy has his bag and is leaving. Of course the video may show the gun still trained on him or something.... or perhaps was waiving it at others....so plausible defense, it's just not how that has been reported thus far.
Drawing a gun suggests an intent to use it. Yet, from what I'm reading here, the vigilante better be able to prove that he was personally threatened. If so, this suggests that the law condemns those who take action for the collective good. The concept of taking action for the collective good is dead in this scenario and discourages doing so.
I was once on a community board for a non-profit. We had created 28 jobs but a shady character caused our enterprise to collapse and lawsuits began flying. I asked my attorney why anyone in their right mind would be on a board or why he was the head of a volunteer fire department when there were personally no financial rewards but huge possible financial problems. After all, the brakes on the volunteer fire truck might fail. His answer was that we just live once and have to take some chances. He did not defend the law.
Earlier in this thread it was suggested that this shooting the fault of not enough money being spent on beefing up the police state. It was a sad comment suggesting the abdication of community action in deference to depending on absent parent figures.
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".
Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4, scene 2, 71–78
My understanding is that insurance can and should be purchased to protect board members against such situations. Of course "flying lawsuit" situations should still be avoided.Quote:
Originally Posted by oladub
I'm all for sending a message...
If the old fart who capped the bad get's charged or sued then a Go fund me account for the old guy get's my donation and full support for Jury nullification.
Yes, insurance is available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
The question is 'who gets to decide the public good'. I do hope he or someone else was truly threatened -- because robbers deserve to be shot. And good samaritans should be celebrated. But if he wasn't threatened, he wasn't just a good samaritan. He was also judge, jury, and executioner. And he wasn't appointed to those jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by oladub
Nah, he wasn't threatened. The thug thought he was at a gun show. And these assholes just needed a car to get to medical school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/loca...23790890-story
I wonder if the robber is eligible to be prosecuted under the new crime task force mandates announced in June. They state:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
- Felons with one prior violent crime conviction will now face federal prosecution.
- Offenders with three prior violent felony convictions or drug convictions will receive a mandatory minimum 15-year prison sentence for possession of a firearm.
- Offenders who use a gun during a violent crime will face a minimum of five years, with additional mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years for a second offense
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ence/28308389/
You're correct that insurance, it's expensive, could have been purchased but in our situation it was create jobs or enrich insurance companies. I learned my lesson about no good deed goes unpunished. But the shooter, at best, may have felt threatened. Maybe he saved some lives by taking this gun wielding thief off the street for awhile but I doubt he will get much credit for that possibility as long as there are lawyers feeding at the trough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
GP, I'm not implying that people that want to become a hero will start hanging out at banks waiting for a chance to save innocent people who aren't armed. I merely wonder what precedence will be set if someone pulls a gun in a public place, starts blasting and then is honored for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Personally, I'd almost rather have one person with a gun that would like to exit as soon as possible than to be caught in a crossfire. That's just my personal feelings on the subject.
Online banking. Check it out. No lines, no guns.
Creating 38 jobs is not cheap. Your organization should have included funding for your insurance. Then maybe you could have created 380 jobs, not just 38 or zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by oladub
Not to mention that your sharing your experience might discourage others from participation in civic life. While I think 'creating jobs' is a fools errand, I applaud your engagement anyway.
Sometimes I have a hard time reading you. Is that sarcasm.... I hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
He didn't "start blasting". He hit what he was aiming at. He didn't hit anything else. There was no "crossfire" like on TV. It was a refreshing change from the half-dozen dead citizens I hear about on the news every morning. People today are so concerned about criminals' rights that they put up with terrorism and live in fear. But it's a Detroit phenomenon. Northern suburbs don't have nearly as many of these issues. What do you think would happen to a carjacker in Davison, for instance? Bet they don't try that shit up there. The "precedence" would probably be the same down here if a few of these guys ran into customers with balls like this fucker did.Quote:
Originally Posted by old guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Beat me to posting this.......
That's right. Detroit has tolerated this kind of urban terrorism for years allowing neighborhoods to be destroyed and innocent people robbed and murdered while the hoodlums get off free. Even if they have been convicted, many of them are out on the streets having skipped early paroles which they didn't deserve to be given. The community in Detroit harbors these criminals instead of turning them in to the police. The police are trying to improve the situation and reduce crime but it has been so out of control for so long, it won't really start to change until average citizens say they have had enough. If that means defending yourself in public, that is the way it has to be. This is especially important now since this kind of Detroit phenomenon has spread to the first ring suburbs which are starting to fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Yep, Now that it's your ass, it's time to get concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
Well yeah, he kinda did....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
he emptied his magazine and IIRC that firearm has a a 10+1 capacity. He fired as many as 11 shots and only managed to wing the guy with three. He hit A LOT of something else....just luckily not other people.Quote:
Then, Warren Mayor Jim Fouts said, Kendrick fired his Smith & Wesson M&P 9 mm shield, emptying it and hitting the suspected robber three times, once in each arm and a leg.
aim center mass, squeeze the trigger....
yea, because, according to the reporting, the perp was fleeing when the citizen started blasting away, apparently with his eyes closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
A dangerous thought. A lapse in morality. So quick to judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
You may be right that his life will be complicated. Less clear is that his moral compass is broken.
There seems to be little in our sad media about what really happened. The News says:When I find myself on the receiving end of a bank robber's gun, I hope you aren't the only person around.Quote:
During the bank robbery, the 43-year-old male suspect pointed a gun at a 63-year-old male customer, Fouts said. The customer, who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon, then shot the suspect in both arms and one leg, injuring him.
Man robs a bank, points a gun at a man while doing so, and gets a magazine unloaded into him.
Pretty straight-forward. This isn't about 11K, it's about someone threatening to kill you by pointing a weapon at you.
Yes, center of mass would have been an improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
No no mug shots yet...hmmmmmm...
I hope that either one of us is never part and parcel to any type of an armed robbery. I'm sure it's a terrible thing to experience. As far as I'm concerned, I have my share of foibles but drawing my weapon and pulling the trigger isn't one of them unless there is absolutely no other alternative available to me. It just isn't worth it to me to be a hero and try and save some bank $11000.00. Let the guy just take the money and I'll just go on about my business. If I injure or kill someone completely innocent by accident, I would have a way harder time living with that then turning my back when someone walks off with some financial institutions $11000.00, I really don't give a shit about that. If you feel that that is a lapse in morality, that's fine, you're entilited to your opinion, I think my morality is completely in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Once again, it's not about 11K. The robber pointed the gun at the citizen.
Shooting someone in the back is the sign of a coward. If this guy really had balls he would have drawn mono-a-mono. Clint, and all of the other gun fighters back in the day, would not approve.
Dood unloaded his clip and only hit on three of his shots.
Dood is damn lucky he didn't pin some innocent to the panel.
Welcome to the new normal. Sue both of them; send them both to the pookie.
Charlie Bronson is dead; there is no more Dead Wish.
There were no customers in the bank. No one gives a shit that the robber was shot while leaving [[note complete lack of protests). There are 5 felony charges against the robber. There are none against the citizen. If you want Normal turn on the news; there were another half dozen shootings in Detroit last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
With the exception of this forum, the vast majority of people I've talked to just wish the guy had better aim.
once again, the citizen didn't unload on the guy until the guy had turned to leave the building.... the threat was over. At that point is was ALL about 11k and being a vigilante.Quote:
Originally Posted by 48307
and let me be clear... I'm fine with the outcome. Just noting the outcome could have been a lot different and it's the reason for the regime of laws that define when people can use deadly force and when they can't.
How is this one any different that most on the news when you really break it down? They are usually over money or disrespect or threats against someone. This one just comes with a smidgen of legal cover for the shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
I can think of very few things I care less about than some thugs shooting each other over who gets to sling what on which corner of the ghettohood or who "disrespected" whom. Why? Because I don't live there and it doesn't affect me.
I am a bit concerned that behind me at the bank..or the store...or the Starbucks is some senior citizen with a few hours of CPL training, an itchy trigger finger, and delusions of Charles Bronson dancing in his head just waiting to unload in the general direction of a petty thug making off with chump change.
Exactly, Then how about letting us that do live there deal with it. We can post all the feel-good morality we want, but then there's the real world to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I don't care about the guy who robbed the bank either, I know you're not supposed to rob banks. What I'm questioning is the call made on the part of the shooter. From what I've read I wouldn't have done it. Not saying I'm positive he made a mistake either. Just doesn't sound like something I would have done, for a few reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Did I miss the part where this guy was turning to leave and shot in the back? All the coverage I've seen or read indicates that it was threatening robbery -- and that the robber was pointing a loaded gun at innocent clerks and customers.
Click on Detroit:This has nothing to do with $11,000 -- which I agree would be worth letting go -- and everything to do with a dangerous person who was as likely as not to threaten or kill someone with the gun he was actively using in the commission of a crime.Quote:
As the teller turned to go get a banker to help Mann, Mann pulled out a handgun and pointed it at the teller. Mann then also pointed the gun at a customer who was in front of the teller and told him to put his hands up, according to the complaint.
Glad you agree, softie, that you're not supposed to rob banks. Do you also agree that you're not supposed to point a gun at people and threaten them?
Its perfectly OK for you to decide that an armed and dangerous person goes out into the world to potentially shoot someone as he flees, or then gets in a car and kills some kids while speeding home. Perhaps he'd kill someone else's kids, and not yours.
But back to my question... is there evidence that he was shot in the back?
"Did I miss the part where this guy was turning to leave and shot in the back?"
Yes, you did.
Reading is Fundamental; I highly suggest it.
You guys can piss and moan all you want. Only one person was charged with anything, and no one is protesting or rioting. Unless you know more than those at the scene it's not gonna make any difference.
"Unless you know more than those at the scene it's not gonna make any difference."
So sez the Cowboy who acts like he was there . . . . .
"Mann then also pointed the gun at a customer who was in front of the teller and told him to put his hands up, according to the complaint."
Wait --- What??
Cowboy said there were no customers in the bank.
"There were no customers in the bank."
Yikes -- Spin cycle set to overdrive .....
Oh come on, give the old fart the benefit of the doubt, he was just a little slow on the draw that's all.
Plus he did not shoot the bad man in the back. He did wing him pretty good.
As for the number of hits and misses that seems to be average for the cops too.
As far as I can tell the bad man made a couple of mistakes on this job.
Ask the bad man if he had it to do all over again what he would change.
Robber's back was to the shooter as he was leaving when he was shot.
What's to say that shooter was aiming for the back and is such a bad shot he only hit him in the extremities?
Nope, to me -- shooter had poor grouping and couldn't handle the recoil as he went through his clip.
Popular thoughts are that shooter was a keen shot and was able to wound the robber. Some even contrast that the shooter has better aim than trained Fuzz.
What if my Mom was walking outside the bank when Hopalong Cassidy decided to take matters into his own hands, and got hit by that bullet that went through the window?
Would folks still be raising a statue of the shooter?
Folks -- when the next time happens, and some innocent gets winged or blasted, I hope y'all stay consistent in your messaging that this is a good thing.
Listen -- I will be the very last person to defend a criminal. But what I don't like is everyone singing the shooter's praises for his irresponsible gun play.
I own quite a bit of arsenal myself; and this shooter [[along with all of the Tea Bagger, open-carry gun fucks out there) gives us responsible gun owners bad press.
You wanna go shoot somebody?
How about hitting Syria -- plenty of targets over there. I'm sure they would be more than happy to oblige.
scoreboard: one person charged. No one injured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
My work here is done.
Keeping score, are we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Glad to see you've reduced this down to a game, now.
Ummmmm, robber was injured.
One person charged, so far . . . .
Be careful walking past any banks on your way back to the Ranch, Hoss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9 mm, which hold eight rounds,not that it really matters but as many as 11 shots sounds much better and dramatic.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y
Short barrel 9 mm high kick.
It is easy to say aim center mass and squeeze until you are in that situation under stress and with seconds to make that decision,it takes a lot of practice and even at that,real world and what you see on TV are two different things.
From WEREPORTUM daily .... The robber had thought all was going to plan until he turned around pointing his AR15 loaded with depleted uranium deposit rounds at the old man in the wheelchair,it was at that point he noticed the twin Browning 30 caliber vintage WW2 machine guns mounted on each side of the wheelchair and at that point realized it was one of those days he should have just stayed in bed.
Police on scene are still counting the spent casings which is believed to be in excess of 5000. We will update as more information is received.
Robber doesn't count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
If I was scared of anything I wouldn't have moved here. I'm all set.
Is there any more news coverage on who was charged? I can't find any new articles in the paper or on TV stations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...concealed.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
It's not real clear from the story but I wonder if the guy who was forced behind the counter is the same customer who ultimately shot the robber. There is a copy of the indictment in the story.
The guy who shot him came out of the bathroom when the robbery was in progress and had the gun pointed at him. Not much news coverage on this since it happened. Hope they let us know when he will get his commendation from the city. They really should have a parade for him. He's a real hero!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Seriously, a parade?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A parade [[also called march or marchpast) is a procession of people, usually organized along a street, often in costume, and often accompanied by marching bands, floats or sometimes large balloons. Parades are held for a wide range of reasons, but are usually celebrations of some kind.
Detroit Boy, you're probably correct in your thinking. My apologies.
I can only imagine what 8 or 9 rounds of 9mm +p HP's do to your unprotected ears in a bank lobby.
You got ringing and ear drum damage for sure.
I know the type of people who live in Warren so I know I am correct. At least there's one city that isn't willing to let hoodlums ruin it without a fight. Good for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by old guy
A bank with a public bathroom? That's open? Nobody has to let you in?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...rren/72631112/Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
Even people from Warren have to pee once and awhile.
Just think,if the bank was in Midtown,it would have been a whole different outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
For sure. The hoodlum would mow down everyone else in the bank with bullets using a semi automatic weapon, the police would shoot and arrest him and there would have to be a State level investigation to see if the officer acted inappropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
No,because the guy would not be coming out of the bathroom because it would have been locked,according to some,and he would have been outside using the sidewalk and would have never had the gun pointed at him in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
Not to mention riots and protests, which I'm still shocked aren't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitBoy
I don't see how this situation differs much from the bank shooter. In both instances there was either no threat or the threat had ended as in both cases the robber was fleeing when the arm chair commando unloaded their weapon in the general direction of the fleeing perp.Quote:
Police confirmed on Wednesday that a concealed pistol license [[CPL) holder was not being threatened by a fleeing shoplifter when she decided to fire multiple shots at him in a Home Depot parking lot.
And experts interviewed Wednesday doubted the shooting could have been justified.
“It’s my worst nightmare as a CPL instructor,” said Doreen Hankins, owner of Detroit Arms, which holds CPL classes. “You have to know the entire situation before you pull that handgun out. And I don’t see that a shoplifter at Home Depot fills any of those criteria.”
The shooting happened in the store’s parking lot at around 2 p.m. Tuesday, when Home Depot’s store security was chasing a shoplifter who jumped into a waiting dark SUV driven by another suspect, said Lt. Jill McDonnell, an Auburn Hills police spokeswoman.
But when the SUV began to pull away, the CPL holder, a 48-year-old woman from Clarkston, suddenly began firing shots at the fleeing vehicle. The vehicle escaped, though one of the bullets may have flattened a back tire, McDonnell said. Police are still seeking to identify the suspects, who made off with more than $1,000 in merchandise.
The shooter remained on the scene, cooperated with police, and was released pending an investigation. But gun safety experts say the shooting details that have been released so far don’t look great for the shooter.
To use a concealed weapon in Michigan, a CPL holder needs to think that there is an imminent danger of death, great bodily harm or sexual assault, or think there is a similar danger to someone else, said Rick Ector, a firearms trainer who runs Legally Armed Detroit. He added that a gun is “truly a tool of last resort.”
My issue is not with people legitimately defending themselves, my issue with giving CPL to anyone who can pass a background check and has a few hundred bucks to spend on the class and a free afternoon to get certified. There should more required. I mean at least lets require an annual re-qual and testing to ensure proficiency and a clear understanding of when deadly force can be used AND you're able to handle your weapon.
Agree that annual re-qual course isn't too much of a burden. These days, it could be taken on-line. But its a good idea to remind people of their obligations. The cost of mistakes is very high.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
We aren't in a great position to judge -- with our source of information being the press. But I see a lot of difference between Armed Robbery vs. Shoplifting. For starters, one is a crime against a person [[theatening clerk, pointing gun) -- while the other a crime where nobody was threatened at all.
I think the bank meets the 'imminent danger of death, great bodily harm or sexual assault, or think there is a similar danger to someone else' test.
the bank robber was shot as he was exiting the bank, from the facts as known from the reporting[[ which is to say, I'm adding your duly noted grain of salt there). with those facts, it seems the imminent threat had passed. He was fleeing the scene when the citizen unloaded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
I don't trust gun-wielding bank robbers to keep their gun holstered as they flee. Would you feel there was no imminent threat if he'd decided to carjack at gunpoint?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Here's the critical fact: freep: "Mann never returned fire, though his Colt Mark IV was found to be loaded."
He has just used the gun: freep: "...Mann took out a semi-automatic handgun and pointed it at her, according to the complaint".
I think the possibility that someone else would be threatened was very high. If you brandish a gun in a bank, I think armed citizens should shoot you to protect others.
Again, lack of charges against the citizen would tend to confirm this. As far as annual retraining of CPL holders, I agree...right after we start annually certifying drivers with actual driving tests. I'm a lot more worried about the absolute shit driving I see around here than I am around CPL holders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
I'd start with re-training this woman from Clarkston, who didn't seem to mind endangering who knows how many people in her effort to murder a shoplifter, who was no threat to her or anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...epot/73468588/
I suspect that every time one of these gun fetishists takes a shot at some criminal, many others get so turned on that they are just itching to do the same.
Well if you don't like guns you are living in the right state.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
i do agree that shooting at a vehicle in a parking lot does not seem smart however.
Michigan law states that use of force with a firearm is only authorized when a person feels his life is reasonably in grave danger and does not apply to defense of property. In this case stopping a robber. Read up on the idiot that played Jane Wayne in Auburn Hills recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
I believe MI law also condones use where there is a similar threat to others. I agree that as the suspect flees, the danger is passing. Yet this person was clearly willing to point the gun at innocents to accomplish their goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin
They may have been fleeing, but it isn't much a leap to assume that the robber was likely to threaten others with deadly force in the parking lot. I don't see that the threat disappears simply because the robber accomplished the first part of their illegal act and was fleeing. In fact, I think there motivation to use the pistol increases in direct proportion to the proximity of police and other guards -- who also would have been at risk.
The subject of The original thread has not been charged with anything. I would guess shooting a carjacker who is pointing a gun at you would be justified also. Don't worry, you still have the option of giving them your car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin
That's probably the option I would use if there wasn't a threat to my life or someone's else's in the vicinity. I have insurance on my car, after the dust settles I'll go buy another one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Up until the moment when the crack-addled brain shoots you as you exit your car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpwrangler
Don't assume that carjackers are rational actors.
This video is from October 2nd and so might contain some stale information. At 3:12 they begin discussing the subject of this thread.
Bystander Opens Fire On ShoplifterQuote:
When one woman witnessed a shoplifter fleeing the scene of a Home Depot in Michigan she did what any of us would definitely not do, she started shooting at them. She was concealed carry licensed. The shooting happened in the store's parking lot at around 2 :00 P.M. when Home Depot security was chasing a shoplifter in his 40s who jumped into a waiting dark SUV.
Cenk Uygur and Hannah Cranston [[Think Tank) hosts of The Young Turks discuss. Should this woman be prosecuted for shooting at a petty thief running away from from Home Depot? Let us know in the comments.
Read more here: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local...
A concealed-carry license holder is now cooperating with police after she opened fire on a shoplifter who was fleeing a Home Depot on Tuesday afternoon, Auburn Hills Police said.
The shooting happened in the store’s parking lot at around 2 p.m., when Home Depot security was chasing a shoplifter in his 40s who jumped into a waiting dark SUV, said Lt. Jill McDonnell, an Auburn Hills police spokeswoman.
But when the SUV began to pull away, a 48-year-old woman suddenly began firing shots at the fleeing vehicle. The vehicle escaped – but possibly has a flat tire, McDonnell said.
The Home Depot case was not the subject of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
That's your choice, if you live through it. Good luck walking home down Warren Ave or wherever they leave you. And good luck getting insurance after a loss or two like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider