Teachers and Unions are Hurting the Children and Obama Don't Care

Teachers in Michigan are having a fake sick out. How greedy can these tax subsidized clerks be. They are hiding behind children like terrorists to get what they want.

In Wisconsin teachers illegally go on strike. They don't care if other teachers get fired if they balance the budget and start chopping jobs.
Wisconsin democrat legislators are in hiding like little babies having a temper tantrum so they don't have to vote on the budget . They ran off like fugitives to Illinois. The state police are trying to find them.

President Obama’s old Organizing for America Group and the Democratic National Committee were playing a leading role in organizing the protests in Wisconsin and Ohio. This suggests Democrats are attempting to use the power of public sector unions to check the current momentum towards limited government.

The group is busing union Astroturf to the protests.

The Governor told Obama to buzz off and mind his own business.

The states are broke, the Fed govt is broke, and the unions don't want to pay their fair share.
I don't think their intimidation union bullying tactics are going to work this time.

Astroturf? You're soaking in it.

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Originally Posted by gdogslim

The states are broke, the Fed govt is broke, and the unions don't want to pay their fair share.
I don't think their intimidation union bullying tactics are going to work this time.

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Negotiating concessions from public employees has nothing to do with effectively dispensing with unions. Never mind that Freedom of Association is a Constitutionally-protected right. Scott Walker isn't just trying to gain concessions from union workers, but to severely limit the ability of the unions to bargain. Limiting the ability of the unions to bargain has negligible impact on Wisconsin's short-term budget outlook.

Even more glaring, however, is that Scott Walker created his own deficit. Wisconsin was projected to have a budget surplus this year. That is, until Scott Walker and the Republican Legislature enacted two business tax breaks and an unfunded expansion of health savings accounts. Now he wants to engage in some good ole-fashioned union-busting to pay for his political agenda?

GP, Where to start? I live in Wisconsin. Gov. Doyle [[D) and a Democratic legislature managed to make Wisconsin on of the ten most indebted states in the country. Gov. Doyle even created new taxes on nursing home and hospital patients to partly fund his expanded government programs. These are among the reasons Wisconsin voters turned both State houses, the Governor's office, and a US Senate seat over to Republicans.

Here is where I differ from Walker. I think that union workers have as much right to collectively bargain as rich people have to hire private lawyers and accountants to look after their interests. So I think it is wrong for Walker to take away that freedom of assembly right. That said, it is imperative that Wisconsin balances it's budget and gets out of debt as it doesn't have a printing press at it's disposal.

I do appreciate that Gov. Walker told the President, when the President butted
in, that Wisconsin was trying to repair it's budget as he should do the same with the federal budget.

The President had suggested that instead of ending collective bargaining, Wisconsin should perhaps do what the President did for federal employees. In Nov.2010, the President froze federal employee wages for two years. Using crude math, that would save more money than the much smaller amount of health care costs that Walker was trying to make labor eat. An additional benefit is that there was hardly a murmur from organized labor when Obama imposed a two year wage freeze. Maybe it's because labor bends over for Obama but it is something Walker might try instead of limiting collective bargaining. He would save more money and labor could still collectively bargain except for pay until the freeze was over.

There were a couple of side issues in Wisconsin. State Senate Democrats fled the State and turned up operating their government in exile in the Clock Tower Inn, with its Tilted Kilt Bar [[kind of like Hooters), in Rockford Illinois. This was to stay out of reach of the WI State Patrol which had been dispatched to summon them to perform their Senate duties. It was a bad move because Wisconsinites generally have the same contempt for anything Illinois [[sorry Wolverine) as Uppers do for anything Detroit. So to hide out in Illinois was like the saying about birds of a feather. They abandoned their post and identified themselves with Illinois in the eyes of Wisconsin.

Second, although state employees had cause to be angry about the collective bargaining issue, they handled it wrong by calling in sick to the point that Madison had to close it's schools for three days. Parents who had to make emergency arrangements for childcare or leave their kids untended all day are angry. Where I live, one middle school principal led a local rally on taxpayer time. I heard one parent who was furious because her teen was given a two hour pass to join the protests but instead went home for two hours. When he came back after two hours, he was cited with truancy because he hadn't attended the protest. The mother laid into whomever she talked to in the school until the school backed off on the truancy charge. Yesterday some schools closed around here because of 'fog' so teachers could protest without criticism. When it was -34 degrees here a month ago, the schools all were open. Considering that students sometimes have to collect glowing references from school teachers for their college and scholarship applications, issues of brown-nosing, unequal relationships, and coercion could be brought into play when teachers recruit and/or propagandize their students. Vouchers start looking pretty good. I read of one account of another parent who complained their sixth grade boy had come home saying he wished that he could kill Gov. Walker. At least the boy was paying attention in class.

And the US is broke because of teachers, firefighters, auto workers, police, union workers, homeowners, government employees, etc??? Huh? Who started two wars??? Huh? What department is facing zero budget cuts??? Huh? Who's cruising through his depression with income raises and tax cuts??? Huh? Gdog, gee you're aptly named.

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Originally Posted by oladub

GP, Where to start? I live in Wisconsin. Gov. Doyle [[D) and a Democratic legislature managed to make Wisconsin on of the ten most indebted states in the country. Gov. Doyle even created new taxes on nursing home and hospital patients to partly fund his expanded government programs. These are among the reasons Wisconsin voters turned both State houses, the Governor's office, and a US Senate seat over to Republicans.

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Wisconsin was projected to have $120 billion in the bank this year. Is that what you mean by "one of the most indebted states"? Scott Walker and the GOP-controlled Legislature passed $117 billion in business tax cuts this year. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/...os&Darling.pdf

Sound familiar? 2001? Bueller?

That ain't the unions, chief. That's blind fucking tax cutting ideology. And I, for one, do not believe public employees should have to bear the burden of Scott Walker being absolute shit at math.

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Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

And the US is broke because of teachers, firefighters, auto workers, police, union workers, homeowners, government employees, etc??? Huh? Who started two wars??? Huh? What department is facing zero budget cuts??? Huh? Who's cruising through his depression with income raises and tax cuts??? Huh? Gdog, gee you're aptly named.

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and foreign aid
and rediculous studies
and high speed rail that will end up needing maintained and subsidized
and a "nationwide wireless web"
and funding the armies of foreign nations [[ie egypt & others)
and "nationbuilding"
and bailing out companies that ran themselves into failure
and
and
and
and

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Originally Posted by Papasito

and foreign aid
and rediculous studies
and high speed rail that will end up needing maintained and subsidized
and a "nationwide wireless web"
and funding the armies of foreign nations [[ie egypt & others)
and "nationbuilding"
and bailing out companies that ran themselves into failure
and
and
and
and

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AND I certainly agree with some of your ANDS.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Wisconsin was projected to have $120 billion in the bank this year. Is that what you mean by "one of the most indebted states"? Scott Walker and the GOP-controlled Legislature passed $117 billion in business tax cuts this year. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/...os&Darling.pdf

Sound familiar? 2001? Bueller?

That ain't the unions, chief. That's blind fucking tax cutting ideology. And I, for one, do not believe public employees should have to bear the burden of Scott Walker being absolute shit at math.

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Wisconsin faces a budget shortfall of $137 million for the current FY2011 and the prospect of a $3.6 billion hole in the coming two-year budget. Gov. Scott Walker proposed budget cuts to balance the state's budget, and a bill related to collective bargaining by unions triggered days of protests in the state capitol.

"Wisconsin has a total state debt of $17,971,519,547 when calculated by adding the total of outstanding debt, pension and OPEB UAAL’s, unemployment trust funds and the 2010 budget gap as of July 2010.

The state faces a $3.6 billion budget shortfall over the next 2 years.

Governor Scott Walker has said that he will not raise taxes[5] but will tackle the estimated $3.1 billion shortfall with the budget that he will present on Feb. 22, 2011"
http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/...n_state_budget
http://www.wpri.org/blog/?cat=26

Wisconsin has the tenth worst financial condition, number 41, of all states in a ranking compiled by Forbes.com. Wisconsin has a debt per capita of $1,429, unfunded pensions per capita of $16,418, and debt as a percentage of Gross State Product of 22 percent. Our state is classified as a debt disaster.

Forbes.com makes this observation:

“Of the 10 states in the worst financial condition, eight are among a total of 23 defined by Gallup as ‘solidly Democratic,’ meaning the Democrats enjoy an advantage of 10 percentage points or greater in party affiliation. These states include Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California, and New Jersey, as making up the bottom five, plus Massachusetts, Ohio and Wisconsin. ”http://www.franklinnow.com/blogs/communityblogs/87144437.html

Oladub. A right wing blog, a free market blog and a teabagger wiki say the budget is in the red, the the state's fiscal governance website says it's in the black. Who do we believe?

The two wars didn't bankrupt Michigan or the USA. In fact the Afhagnistan war is justified and it a right war; Iraq? A cluster-fuck that shouldn't have even been started [[and yes that cash could come in handy now).

The reason many states and the feds are broke is simple...THEY DON'T COLLECT ENOUGH TAXES! If the USA were to raise taxes a bit here and there like other countries have for 30+ years the feds would be rolling in the bread. Instead they look to the next election and don't want to rock the boat.

Which brings to me voter apathy. Every two years there are some kind of election for someone. I think the populace has voter burnout IMO. But I digress.

Raise taxes where needed [[consumption taxes are usually the proper ones to raise) and watch the money come in. The problem is every little shit will bitch that the gov't is taking an extra $500-600/year from them and no damn way should some gov't take their hard earned money. Then the same people will complain of no healthcare, poor roads, poor cities etc.

sorry but the USA has to join the rest of theplanet sooner rather than later because China will, once they grow their middle class, come knocking for thier $2 trillion loans and then the USA will be really fucked.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Oladub. A right wing blog, a free market blog and a teabagger wiki say the budget is in the red, the the state's fiscal governance website says it's in the black. Who do we believe?

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Free market? Freedom? that must get in your craw.

Cited are links to The New Your Times and Forbes The Franklin article is almost a reprint of a Forbes article. The sunshinereviewarticle links its sources to -
↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 New York Times "Democrats Missing, Wisconsin Vote on Cuts Is Delayed" Feb. 17, 2011
↑ State Budget Solutions “States Hide Trillions in Debt” July 22, 2010
↑ 3.0 3.1 USA Spending, State Guesstimated* Government Spending
↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.8 MSNBC.com "Wis. union vote on hold after Democrats leave state" Feb. 17, 2011
I didn't even quote the wpri article which linked directly to a NY Tmes article and graph and quoted the national Association of State Budget Officers.

So I guess you are indirectly questioning the New York Times, Forbes, the Association of State Budget Officers, and MSNBC as being "free market and teabagger blogs and of less substance than a government document speaking about something else. I can't argue with that but will go with my sources. Besides, I am marginally involved with township government, am very acquanted with state highway financing in Wisconsin, and see a Wisconsin property tax bill every year. The tendency is for more and more bills to get loaded onto township and local school districts and for highway projects to be put off for yet another year because the State just doesn't have it any more.

Please reread GP's contribution. The State has $121M cash in it's checking account which is almost twice it's requirement. Then compare that amount of cash with the State's almost $18B of debt. The latter number is bigger than the former number. I realize that you are a Democrat and must be uncomfortable with numbers like millions, billions, and trillions that almost sound alike but trust me on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oladub

Free market? Freedom? that must get in your craw.

Cited are links to The New Your Times and Forbes The Franklin article is almost a reprint of a Forbes article. The sunshinereviewarticle links its sources to -
↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 New York Times "Democrats Missing, Wisconsin Vote on Cuts Is Delayed" Feb. 17, 2011
↑ State Budget Solutions “States Hide Trillions in Debt” July 22, 2010
↑ 3.0 3.1 USA Spending, State Guesstimated* Government Spending
↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.8 MSNBC.com "Wis. union vote on hold after Democrats leave state" Feb. 17, 2011
I didn't even quote the wpri article which linked directly to a NY Tmes article and graph and quoted the national Association of State Budget Officers.

So I guess you are indirectly questioning the New York Times, Forbes, the Association of State Budget Officers, and MSNBC as being "free market and teabagger blogs and of less substance than a government document speaking about something else. I can't argue with that but will go with my sources. Besides, I am marginally involved with township government, am very acquanted with state highway financing in Wisconsin, and see a Wisconsin property tax bill every year. The tendency is for more and more bills to get loaded onto township and local school districts and for highway projects to be put off for yet another year because the State just doesn't have it any more.

Please reread GP's contribution. The State has $121M cash in it's checking account which is almost twice it's requirement. Then compare that amount of cash with the State's almost $18B of debt. The latter number is bigger than the former number. I realize that you are a Democrat and must be uncomfortable with numbers like millions, billions, and trillions that almost sound alike but trust me on that.

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1. Where do the two business tax cuts and expansion of health savings accounts figure in? Those are affordable in the face of a deficit?

2. What do any of the budget numbers have to do with the right of workers to freely associate?

And I have to laugh that Oladub cites Forbes as some sort of objective, nonpartisan source. Apparently, he's never heard of Original Flat Taxer [[and former presidential candidate) Steve Forbes, who publishes that fishwrap-for-billionaires.

if unions are so great, why are individuals "forced" to join to gain employment

if they are so great, shouldn't individuals want to join, on their own free will???

shouldn't it just be a choice of the individual, to either join a union or negotiate their wage on their own with the employer?

why is joining a union a condition of employment? why is having part of your wage confiscated by the union and donated to political parties you may not support a condition of gaining employment???

if they are so great they wouldn't need forceable membership.....

Excellent post Goose!
No one can answer honestly because there is no honest answer.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

1. Where do the two business tax cuts and expansion of health savings accounts figure in? Those are affordable in the face of a deficit?

2. What do any of the budget numbers have to do with the right of workers to freely associate?

And I have to laugh that Oladub cites Forbes as some sort of objective, nonpartisan source. Apparently, he's never heard of Original Flat Taxer [[and former presidential candidate) Steve Forbes, who publishes that fishwrap-for-billionaires.

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1. The business breaks will obviously make state debts worse. I didn't bring that up or defend it.
2. Nothing. You are referring to my previous statement, "Here is where I differ from Walker. I think that union workers have as much right to collectively bargain as rich people have to hire private lawyers and accountants to look after their interests. So I think it is wrong for Walker to take away that freedom of assembly right. That said, it is imperative that Wisconsin balances it's budget and gets out of debt as it doesn't have a printing press at it's disposal." I support both the maintenance of bargaining rights and reducing excessive spending. You misread my comment.

I guess you are conceding that the NY Times and MSNBC are not tea bag media outlets. This is the Forbes statement in question, “Of the 10 states in the worst financial condition, eight are among a total of 23 defined by Gallup as ‘solidly Democratic,’ meaning the Democrats enjoy an advantage of 10 percentage points or greater in party affiliation. These states include Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California, and New Jersey, as making up the bottom five, plus Massachusetts, Ohio and Wisconsin.” How does Steve Forbes interest in flat taxes make this statement incorrect? Is everything that Steve Forbes says a lie? This was a response to your earlier disproven statement, "Wisconsin was projected to have $120 billion in the bank this year." Is that what you mean by "one of the most indebted states"? No it was not because you misread $120M as $120B in the article you submitted. 'Billion' is bigger than 'million'. Of course if you would rather switch the subject to Steve Forbes flat tax...

3 billion in aid to a country that supports oppression would go a long way to getting teachers here that support peace.

Think how much money we would have if we didn't have to pay so much for a barrel of oil from those oppression free countries that sell it to us.

yes It is a shame that the US is enslaved to one country for oil and another for fear of Lobbiest.. you see LB your loyality to oppression is enslaving US to alienating billion of potential customers.. I would rather force regimes that accept monies from us to find peace ... you see LB your blind loyality is going to ultimately hurt Israel..if you love hold it accountabel and bringthat money home .. if we had better relations with all countries in the region we could have peace and Palestine as a traidng partner.. your method is killling people mine would give us revenue and ensure children a brighter future there and hear.. your choice..

I agree, we should cut off aid to ALL countries. Let them all kill each other, and let the chips fall.
Where is all the Bush oil money. I though oil was going to be cheaper because that is why Cheney invaded Iraq. Now the Chicoms have the oil contracts. Whats up with that.?

We could cut tax payer funding to the abortion mills and the public media machines. That would save money.

I wouldnt want anyone to kill themselves..just find peace.. thereis much more dollars [[not military related ) by increase sales and trade. w eneed public radio ..it is the reasonable alternative to Faux news ..corporate radio

If you in possession of facts, you'd know that public money does not fund legal abortion and hasn't for many many years. Since you're regurgitating talking points from your owners, you can't be expected to know that.

150 Troops brought home from Afghanistan would help the "money crunch" in Wisconsin.

one high tech fighter,

If the teachers illegally striking don't return to work then it's time to fire them, just like when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. The teachers need to sacrifice a little like everyone else.
Return federal spending to 2000 levels, start paying off the debt, then start cutting all the wasteful federal programs, let the states keep more of their tax money and pay for programs on a state level.

If you could read, and it's a shame that you can't, you'd know that the teachers unions were willing too make concessions. What Walker is proposing is the elimination of collective bargaining rights, which [[if you could read you'd know this) is against the Constitution of the United States [[the right of assembly).

Go ahead and spout off some packages reponses now.

Priorities... Teacher safe gaurd our future...most are required or get their m,asters but make less than almost every other profession... they work each day with 20 plus children and rarely have breaks.. they take on the discipline that parents used to do with less than half of the authority and tools.. it is the most underpaid profession. Waisteful government programs would be CEO pay [[how is that a government program, u may ask...TAX LOOPHOLES and Free corporate taxes... incentives to build factories then shipping jobs over seas.. that is what is wrong we dont put priorities in our children...just unless they happen to play psorts.not math nor science..but thats ok... in afew years china will have the competitive edge and will we be begging them for engineers and scientists... how many teachers is our foriegn policy not funding ...do the math... why ...it will surprise you how many teachers 3 billion buys.

Jimaz, Here is the Wisconsin income tax schedule on taxable income. Property taxes are higher than the national average here too. While federal trade and other policies may have played into the problem at hand, this is a state problem. Also, the question at hand is only whether collective bargaining will be taken away not whether teachers are important. I oppose the attack on collective bargaining for the same Constitutional reason ORF cited. It is an attack on free assembly. Since Wisconsin already taxes at above average rates, we can't raise taxes too much without becoming a tax hell hole like New Jersey. To meet the $3.6b budget deficit the State faces in two years, most of that amount will have to come from slashing government programs. Therein lies the problem even if Walker moves away from ending collective bargaining.

http://www.revenue.wi.gov/faqs/pcs/taxrates.html#tx1b

Since every president of both parties have recently been forcing US workers into more direct hourly wage competition with foreign workers, US workers, including union workers, have experienced a decline in their personal spending abilities because there is little demand for their services. Because government workers are not in direct competition with foreign labor, they have been able to skate along with gradual wage improvements while private employees have been hurt. It's sad but private sector workers who are stretched pretty thin are beginning to ask why they have to ante up to maintain public workers at higher pay scales. I think they should instead be asking why federal trade and other policies have put them in this vice and continue tightening the screws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oladub

Jimaz,...

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Have I posted anything on this thread? :confused:

^ Yes, You just did




"teacher safe gaurd our future...most are required or get their m,asters but make less than almost every other profession... they work each day with 20 plus children and rarely have breaks..""
- yeah yeah yeah, What about all those women teachers who had sex with those little boys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Have I posted anything on this thread? :confused:

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Oops. I meant gibran. ADD error. You're not as confused as I.

How democratic of the democrats. The leave the state like scardy cats hiding from reality.
Where is the press on this? and why do they cover for Obama on every turn. I forgot, their leftists.

Time to fire these teachers if they don't return to work. Time to kick out the union maggots in the capitol building who are obstructing justice. It's good to see a Governor stand his ground.

There's been plenty of press regarding this. Where have you been?

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Originally Posted by Big Dog

There's been plenty of press regarding this. Where have you been?

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He likely watches the Fox news "commentators"... who like to use those words a lot....
"Where is the Press on this?"... ;)

Ten years ago everyone was talking about teachers who didn't make enough and they should earn more for what they do. Now they make too much? I don't understand where this turn of events have come from....maybe repeating lies over and over again suddenly make them true to sheep?

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- yeah yeah yeah, What about all those women teachers who had sex with those little boys.

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Or those Catholic Priests who had sex with those little boys....just because there are a few bad people doesn't mean the profession/religion is bad. Stereotyping is bad. It's like saying all people who watch FOX News are brainless idiots...when in fact only like 99.5% of them are.

Yes, that's going to be mega drama to say the least. The kick the can down the road politics, dem vs. repub rubric bull is useless. It's one thing to endure all the rhetoric and back and forth, but it's gonna be a certain 'wake up' call when China knocks on our door!

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Originally Posted by GOAT

....sorry but the USA has to join the rest of the planet sooner rather than later because China will, once they grow their middle class, come knocking for thier $2 trillion loans and then the USA will be really fucked.

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Quote of the day: "Wait, what does collective bargaining have to do with the debt?" is the new "Wait, what does Iraq have to do with 9-11?"

Wis. unrest exposed GOP strategy to split lower classes, liberal author says

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"The Republican strategy is to split the vast middle and working class - pitting unionized workers against non-unionized, public-sector workers against non-public, older workers within sight of Medicare and Social Security against younger workers who don't believe these programs will be there for them, and the poor against the working middle class," Robert Reich wrote on his blog Thursday.

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Nothing surprising or new about that. Those same old cobwebs have been decorating the GOP's playbook for decades.

Priorities: Using Labor Market Data: ONET

Median wages for CEO of Business [[private sector): 75% 80+ or $160 annual BS or MS

Median wages for School Administration [[public sector): 75% 40 or $85 annual MS or PhD

so if you compare Administration to private sectors you can see that most Public Workers require higher education and in fact almost half of what you can get. Most of the public sector workers can not compete with private sector. I know that as a professional: [[in my state)that many of my colleagues has not has a raise in ten years.. they have less benefits than most..on know they can move on ...but they are dedicated to their students and communities..

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Originally Posted by gdogslim

^What about all those women teachers who had sex with those little boys.

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[[Rolling eyes in disbelief emoticon....)

Didn't you hear? They had to let them all out of jail to make more room for those pediaphile parish priests!! :eek:

Rachel Maddow: Like weekends? Thank Wisconsin unions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gdogslim

^ Yes, You just did

"teacher safe gaurd our future...most are required or get their m,asters but make less than almost every other profession... they work each day with 20 plus children and rarely have breaks..""
- yeah yeah yeah, What about all those women teachers who had sex with those little boys.

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Don't stuff words into my mouth, son.

You're lying and you know it and everyone else present knows that you're knowingly lying too. You just don't care what others here think about you do you?

Why do you bother?

Does it really pay that much to regurgitate the Koch's rhetoric or are your fees to do so really that low?

Goat - Raise taxes!!!

Give me a break. I am all for taxes when you get something for them like roads, infrastructure, education, health services, etc.

How about cutting the 1.5 billion in aid to Israel annually or shutting down even half of the 700 military basis on foreign soil.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Rachel Maddow: Like weekends? Thank Wisconsin unions.

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Rachel is good at spinning fact embellished yarns. I'm surprised that she made such a good case for the 10th Amendment and states' rights in the beginning of this segment. It was because these things were allowed to successfully happen in Wisconsin that other states decided to do adopt similar policies. Today, the federal government often swoops in and claims the commerce clause allows the federal government to override such legislation. Case in point; Vermont is being impeded from instituting a single payer health care plan.

I didn't know that union membership in non-government unions was down to just 7% after public union memberships were subtracted. Unions only have power when their is a demand for labor. In 1913, federal tax burdens began to be transferred from import taxes to income taxes. That was a transfer of the tax burden from corporations to middle class and working class individuals . NAFTA, OPIC, GATT, and other such trade agreement facilitated even more profitable reasons for corporations to import goods and services while making American workers compete head to head with lower paid foreign labor. Other foreigners were even allowed to compete for remaining US jobs at home. A surplus of labor resulted. This was no accident. It was exactly what corporations wanted the Democrat and Republican leaderships to do.

Public sector unions did not have to compete directly with foreign labor. Public service workers used to make less money than private sector workers but it was considered fair because they had steadier jobs and were less subject to layoffs and firings. As non-public unions were decimated by foreign competition, public union employees gradually surpassed them in earnings and benefits. One problem is that the rest of the population is now making less money to sustain the status quo still upheld by government workers.

Rachel missed a good talking point. several of the Green Bay Packers have taken a stand against Gov. Walker and in favor of collective bargaining. The Packers were, of course, named after meat packers; jobs that used to be union. The meat packing companies, with the tacit support of government, have since replaced most union workers in most plants with non-union lower wage immigrants.

By all means, let public union employees continue to have bargaining rights like they do in Detroit but realize that negotiating for an empty cookie jar will not necessarily protect jobs.

Cut per pupil funding $1000 a student, change the medical package that finds a less expensive ins and have teachers pay 20%, no layoffs, if you send your child to private school, cut what you pay in property tax, home school if you can, its not as hard as one might think, and there is always help in classes you cannot teach. Did ok for my son as he went to Ohio st.

RE: Jimaz Have I posted anything on this thread? :confused:
Jimaz - "Don't stuff words into my mouth, son.
"You're lying and you know it and everyone else present knows that you're knowingly lying too. You just don't care what others here think about you do you?"

me - "Yes, you just did"
me - It was a joke for chrissakes, I know you didn't post anything.
By posting " did i post anything here" you posted something, that was the joke.

" - having pedophile teachers and priests and whoever else is not the issue,"
another joke, how sensitive is everyone here. Preists or anyone else should be in jail.
My mom was a teacher and my cousin is a teacher.
It's now about the NEA union having control and a monopoly.

The issue is the teachers walked off their job, illegally.

Wisconsin is broke. The teachers don't want to budge, but now they will but they wont go back.

The loser legislators are too scared to vote so they left the state like children running and hiding from dad's ass whoopin.

Now the asrto turfing Illinois union members being sent into Wisconsin to protest.

Now doctors are handing out fake illness excuses

The NEA is obviously not Pro Choice, otherwise they would let other unions compete.

80% of Wisconsin kids cannot read proficiently, and Obama Don't Care, [[only about union votes)

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Originally Posted by oladub

I think they should instead be asking why federal trade and other policies have put them in this vice and continue tightening the screws.

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exactly correct.

If it wasnt for unions we would be like the 1920's sweat shops ...Go buy your cheap crap made in China..
If we ever have another war like ww2 we are screwed.....With what little factories left here in the USA we would take years to get back up on our feet....
Look around folks ...There isnt alot left on our towns......

What a surprise! First the Republicans deregulate as much as they can and give us the trickle down economy which only trickled up. Then as the real estate bubble grows, they start an unnecessary war and give the top 2% a huge tax cut. Then when the economy tanks, they hold unemployment benefits hostage until their base, the top 2 % , get another huge tax cut. Then they point with alarm at at the economy and tell workers to give up their rights to collective bargaining to finish off the union-busting Reagan began. And don't forget their giving credits to businesses that outsourced. Don't doubt that there are business people who would like to do away with the 8 hour work day. Some already employ children in the third world. Their goal is not just shrinking government but shrinking everyone's rights . If you want rights, you'll have to be able to pay for them, folks. As a button I have says, Ignore your rights and they go away.

Five states with no collective bargaining rights, and where they rank with SAT scores:
South Carolina – 49th
North Carolina – 38th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 45th
Virginia – 34th

With collective bargaining:
Iowa #1
Wisconsin #2

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Originally Posted by gdogslim

The issue is the teachers walked off their job, illegally.

Wisconsin is broke. The teachers don't want to budge, but now they will but they wont go back.
Now the astro turfing Illinois union members being sent into Wisconsin to protest.

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Actually, they made 17 attempts to negotiate with the governor, but he refused to discuss the issue.
Illinois union members? You should see all the koch bros. Americans for Prosperity members that are flooding into town.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Five states with no collective bargaining rights, and where they rank with SAT scores:
South Carolina – 49th
North Carolina – 38th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 45th
Virginia – 34th

With collective bargaining:
Iowa #1
Wisconsin #2

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Oh, noooo:eek: !This is the third time I've seen this lame correlation posted on websites. Who is passing this nonsense around? You might as well be correlating those state scores with cold weather. Detroit has collective bargaining. California has collective bargaining. How are their SAT's? Because of race or racism in the south, many whites have already pulled their kids from public schools and put them in private 'academies'. The whites vote against funding for public schools because their kids don't use them. The resultant mostly black and underfunded schools do drag down test scores. Iowa and Wisconsin hardly even have blacks let alone segregated black public/white academy school systems. Texas, like California, has to spend much of it's money dealing with foreign language remedial instruction. I haven't read that California kids are doing better than Texan children despite California's affinity for teacher unions.

You should be supporting collective bargaining for Constitutional reasons like the right of workers to assembly into unions and speak. It is a better defense than such flimsy correlations.

1) I do support collective bargaining as a Constitutional issue. 2) Detroit isn't a state. The problems of Detroit drag down the averages for the rest of the state and overwhelm nearly every aspect of life here 3) Is this a black and white issue? hmmmmm 4) gdog is a provocateur - I was mostly responding to that .

I can't wait for Gov. Walker to put an end to public union collective bargaining.
That's what is really freaking the shit out of the union leader thugs all over the country.

No, what freaks them and us out is that simpletons [[gdog, meet mirror) get to vote.

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Originally Posted by gdogslim

I can't wait for Gov. Walker to put an end to public union collective bargaining.

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Your shallowness of thought and lack of empathy [[better look that one up)... never ceases to amaze some of the old timers here.

Capital demands profits as government demands taxes.

Neither produces a tangible product, i.e., truly earns anything, yet both demand payment. This symmetry completely distracts our attention from the third apex of the triangle, labor. Of the three, only labor produces a tangible product, i.e., truly earns anything. Yet of the three, only labor is the one who is expected to pay their earnings to the other two.

Isn't it obvious how this scam works? Isn't it obvious that the mere absence of labor's voice in this discussion shouts of the injustice that this trio is perversely masquerading as a duet?

Note that when Capital accepted publicly funded bailouts, they voluntarily conceded the debate over whether their profits were justifiable as compensation for "absorbing risk." By accepting those bailouts they conceded that "absorbing risk" is no longer a valid justification for their retroactively unearned profits.

They must now be made to pay what they owe.

We're striking? When? No one told me [[or anyone I know) about this! I've made more concessions than I care to mention. A change in my health insurance, loaning DPS 10 grand, loss of sick days, pay freezes, etc.

When I hired in to DPS, I was given the OPTION of joining the union or not joining. I have to pay either way. I am sure employers would LOVE to not have unions and would force no one to join, as a condition of employment. That just sounds insane.

A note of pride from Wisconsin: these demonstrations have been going on for at least 12 days in Madison now. Madison only has about 240,000 residents as a reference point. They started out with Wisconsin teachers playing hooky and have evolved into a major national event with minor celebrities from the coasts and all major unions from nearby Chicago represented. Yet for the couple of hundred thousand demonstrators marching around and the thousands sleeping on all floors of the capitol building there have been zero arrests. Well done Wisconsin!

I came across these photos of some bright Madison kids to show that Madison has other things going on besides ice fishing, watching the Superbowl videos over and over, and demonstrations. http://host.madison.com/news/local/c...0.html?photo=1

I just got home from Madison, it was an amazing weekend. Ola, you should be proud of your fellow citizens, it was as peaceful a demonstration as I've ever attended. One of the high points of the occupation is when the Madison Police march through the Rotunda with signs that read Cops for Labor. Another high point is how clean the building is. A big point is being made of respect for the stunningly beautiful Capitol building.

the police chief just announced they would not arrest anyone for not leaving the Capitol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was so tough to leave. I'm rejuvenated and recharged.

Occupation joke: A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, & a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across & takes 11 cookies looks at the Tea Partier & says, 'look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.' "

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Occupation joke: A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, & a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across & takes 11 cookies looks at the Tea Partier & says, 'look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.' "

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That's a good one.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Occupation joke: A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, & a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across & takes 11 cookies looks at the Tea Partier & says, 'look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.' "

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Yeah, good one. It would be even more appropriate to replace "A unionized public employee" with "The unionized baker who made the cookies." :D

Even funnier, my spellchecker suggests replacing "oldredfordette" with "introverted"! LOL! You go, girl!