Downtown Detroit I-375 to become a surface street.

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http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...surface-street Downtown Detroit's I-375 could be transformed to surface street By Marlon A. Walker | Detroit Free Press June 9, 2013 ... I-375 could disappear and be replaced with a surface street, essentially closing the gap that currently divides downtown from its residential neighbors to the east. The idea is one of several being discussed by stakeholders from downtown businesses. Much of the mile-long I-375, which is nearly 50 years old, is outdated and in need of repair. Several business leaders met in April to discuss the possible landscape change. “I think we all know or are aware of the fact that the freeway is not in great condition,” said Faye Nelson, president and CEO of the Detroit RiverFront Conservancy. “If something were to occur in terms of changes, this is the right time.” Nelson joined forces with George W. Jackson Jr., president and CEO of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp., and went to the Michigan Department of Transportation with the idea to open the floor for suggestions on the face of the corridor going forward, as Detroit continues to realize a downtown revitalization. She said rethinking I-375 now for businesses and residents could add to the “quality of life and the potential for economic development.” “As it exists, 375 represents a barrier,” Nelson said. “It separates the community east and west of Jefferson. We are really looking to gather with our chief stakeholders to have a conversation on whether this is the right time to evaluate 375, and what is the best approach to take with respect to this issue. Hopefully, we can come up with a solution on whether there will be any changes to the freeway, what they are, how they will be funded.” ...

This could be a creative option[[s) to connect downtown/Lafayette Park to the Riverfront. Sort of like the dequindre cut with shops, restaurants and water activities..etc. Boat docking/fishing like this plan in Chicago :http://fotp.org/news/chicago-set-to-...-its-riverwalk

Everything is always based around cars, let it be pedestrian friendly, less car traffic. A nice wide, beautiful landscaped attraction-type development. Connection is key, I hope the plans are done right.

http://fotp.org/wp-content/uploads/2...Riverwalk1.jpg

Here's a image in Oklahoma City Bricktown:

http://www.nomadicpursuits.com/stora...=1324919537829

Another one:

http://jennywhitten.com/pressapp/wp-...lery/Canal.jpg

I love this plan! http://www.worldlandscapearchitect.com/?p=7691

http://worldlandscapearchitect.com/i...nal-Sketch.jpg

First post is wildly misleading headline, second post is completely off-topic, and third is ridiculous armchair urban planning.

Fourth post is annoying curmudgeon from the suburbs.

The last time this came up on DY it was met with a good bit of skepticism from some of the regulars, but I can assure you it is being discussed very seriously by exactly the right people within MDOT and other stakeholder agencies. It would be a big help.

Is anybody aware of any other Interstate highway that, for any reason, has ever ceased to exist? Curious.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

First post is wildly misleading headline, second post is completely off-topic, and third is ridiculous armchair urban planning.

This post is annoying curmudgeon from the suburbs.

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Fixed........

There's one that cut just NW of downtown Milwaukee. It was ripped out maybe in the last decade IIRC. Buildings are starting to fill in where it was.

Some people balked about how it was needed....but like I-375...it wasn't needed at all. Just excessive infrastructure that people used only because it was there.

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Originally Posted by Islandman

Fixed........

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You do realize I was the fourth poster, right?

Now back to talk of riverwalks and pedestrian zones with canals replacing I-75...

I think that is a great idea .. just fill I-375 with water.

Will the Hastings Street moniker be resurrected?

well...the 375 exit to Lafayette leads right to Dan Gilberts Casino! Good luck with this plan.

Very cool.

But didn't anyone notice that Nelson said "the community East and West of Jefferson"???

[[Shouldn't this thread be merged with our previous one on this topic?)

Not this dumb-ass idea again! closing the gap that currently divides downtown from its residential neighbors to the east. Yep, for years we've been sitting on the freeway's edge wondering "How do we get across????" "If we could only join THOSE people!" Let's take whatever monies are left in the kitty, that weren't pissed away by Robert Fiasco's jailhouse, and make an artists pipe dream of what they think a City should look like. I can see all the blue-haired Busias from Clawson paddling their way to the Greektown Casino right now. Now THAT'S effective spending!

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Originally Posted by wolverine

There's one that cut just NW of downtown Milwaukee. It was ripped out maybe in the last decade IIRC. Buildings are starting to fill in where it was.

Some people balked about how it was needed....but like I-375...it wasn't needed at all. Just excessive infrastructure that people used only because it was there.

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Almost 60 years my family and I were uprooted -- as well as other blacks -- from that area. It was called "Black Bottom"....we had to migrate because of the freeway build out. We moved to the east and west side. It was very traumatic, because that area was very "close knit" and there were businesses. We were right down the street from Eastern Market and every Sat. we would walk there to shop. Funny how those plans don't work out long-term.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

There's one that cut just NW of downtown Milwaukee. It was ripped out maybe in the last decade IIRC. Buildings are starting to fill in where it was.

Some people balked about how it was needed....but like I-375...it wasn't needed at all. Just excessive infrastructure that people used only because it was there.

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??????????

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Originally Posted by professorscott

The last time this came up on DY it was met with a good bit of skepticism from some of the regulars, but I can assure you it is being discussed very seriously by exactly the right people within MDOT and other stakeholder agencies. It would be a big help.

Is anybody aware of any other Interstate highway that, for any reason, has ever ceased to exist? Curious.

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According to Wikipedia, the Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was once part of the interstate highway system but it was removed from the system before demolition. So I imagine that MDOT could probably just petition the feds to remove I-375 from the interstate highway system then convert it to a state route.

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Originally Posted by marshamusic

Very cool.

But didn't anyone notice that Nelson said "the community East and West of Jefferson"???

[[Shouldn't this thread be merged with our previous one on this topic?)

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I noticed it and right away thought, east and west of Jefferson? That's the direction Jefferson goes in, so it should be north and south of Jefferson.

Wouldn't canals divide the neighborhoods worse than freeways?

A canal is a lot better for disposing of dead bodies. Better than pitching them into an empty lot.

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Originally Posted by Chicago48

Almost 60 years my family and I were uprooted -- as well as other blacks -- from that area. It was called "Black Bottom"....we had to migrate because of the freeway build out. We moved to the east and west side. It was very traumatic, because that area was very "close knit" and there were businesses. We were right down the street from Eastern Market and every Sat. we would walk there to shop. Funny how those plans don't work out long-term.

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While there were a lot of vibrant businesses along Hastings, there was also a ton of substandard tenement housing. The liberal/progressive thought at the time was to build wonderful housing projects and move people out of the slums which were to be torn down. Like a lot of social engineering, it didn't turn out as envisioned. It just moved the slums to the housing projects.

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Originally Posted by gthomas

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http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...surface-street Downtown Detroit's I-375 could be transformed to surface street By Marlon A. Walker | Detroit Free Press June 9, 2013 ... I-375 could disappear and be replaced with a surface street, essentially closing the gap that currently divides downtown from its residential neighbors to the east. The idea is one of several being discussed by stakeholders from downtown businesses. Much of the mile-long I-375, which is nearly 50 years old, is outdated and in need of repair. Several business leaders met in April to discuss the possible landscape change. “I think we all know or are aware of the fact that the freeway is not in great condition,” said Faye Nelson, president and CEO of the Detroit RiverFront Conservancy. “If something were to occur in terms of changes, this is the right time.” Nelson joined forces with George W. Jackson Jr., president and CEO of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp., and went to the Michigan Department of Transportation with the idea to open the floor for suggestions on the face of the corridor going forward, as Detroit continues to realize a downtown revitalization. She said rethinking I-375 now for businesses and residents could add to the “quality of life and the potential for economic development.” “As it exists, 375 represents a barrier,” Nelson said. “It separates the community east and west of Jefferson. We are really looking to gather with our chief stakeholders to have a conversation on whether this is the right time to evaluate 375, and what is the best approach to take with respect to this issue. Hopefully, we can come up with a solution on whether there will be any changes to the freeway, what they are, how they will be funded.” ...

This could be a creative option[[s) to connect downtown/Lafayette Park to the Riverfront. Sort of like the dequindre cut with shops, restaurants and water activities..etc. Boat docking/fishing like this plan in Chicago :http://fotp.org/news/chicago-set-to-...-its-riverwalk

Everything is always based around cars, let it be pedestrian friendly, less car traffic. A nice wide, beautiful landscaped attraction-type development. Connection is key, I hope the plans are done right.

http://fotp.org/wp-content/uploads/2...Riverwalk1.jpg

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instead of ripping it out, make it a tunnel, with green space on top and that separate one way blvds

Still VERY preliminary. When it comes to priority fixes this one is low compared to many of MDOT's other pavements. It is nowhere near the end of its life cycle and not anywhere near as bad as many other segments of MDOT road in the region [[pavements, safety, operations, truck bridge hits....). Or as important as reconstructing Woodward in tandem with M-1.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

While there were a lot of vibrant businesses along Hastings, there was also a ton of substandard tenement housing. The liberal/progressive thought at the time was to build wonderful housing projects and move people out of the slums which were to be torn down. Like a lot of social engineering, it didn't turn out as envisioned. It just moved the slums to the housing projects.

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While I don't disagree with a lot of what you wrote, Detroit never had a tenement housing issue as bad as what was chronicled by Jacob Riis and brought about modern planning. As far as substandard, that is a value judgement. Most of the housing in Corktown could be considered substandard, but I don't see people rushing to tear it down.

i wouldnt be surprised to see this get the green light if gilbert ends up owning the jail site. if they are still offering discounted land for those who help fund it im sure he would jump all over that as well.

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Originally Posted by RickBeall

I think that is a great idea .. just fill I-375 with water.

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Cobo Canal!

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Originally Posted by Hermod

While there were a lot of vibrant businesses along Hastings, there was also a ton of substandard tenement housing. The liberal/progressive thought at the time was to build wonderful housing projects and move people out of the slums which were to be torn down. Like a lot of social engineering, it didn't turn out as envisioned. It just moved the slums to the housing projects.

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The Hastings Street neighborhood was remarkable in that the richest and poorest blacks all lived cheek-to-jowl and knew each other. Some historians theorize that Hastings Street was selected for the freeway path because it was a tightly knit neighborhood that gave black people a source of political power. If blacks could be dispersed across the city, and separated by income levels, they would be politically weaker. Then again, in the racial and political climate of the 1950s, it was the path of least resistance because black people didn't have the kind of political muscle to resist it. Conservative and liberal whites called it "blighted" and started revving the bulldozers.

Of course, what happened was, with the removal of restrictive housing covenants, blacks moved all over the city.

And then a lot of white people complained about that!

Check out Scott Martelle's "Detroit: A Biography" for more.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

Is anybody aware of any other Interstate highway that, for any reason, has ever ceased to exist? Curious.

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I found one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_170_[[Maryland)

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Originally Posted by jaytheory

instead of ripping it out, make it a tunnel, with green space on top and that separate one way blvds

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The issue is that M-DOT is looking to do something good for the community AND lower future maintenance costs.

A tunnel does not accomplish both goals.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

Is anybody aware of any other Interstate highway that, for any reason, has ever ceased to exist? Curious.

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The Embarcadero in San Francisco was removed though it took an earthquake. The Alaskan Way Viaduct on the water in Seattle [[also earthquake damaged)is currently being replaced with a tunnel. I think Portland took out part of a freeway too.

All of these elevated roads [[blocking waterfront access) are monuments to the stupidity of man. In the Seattle case they are spending almost five billion on the tunnel which I suppose might become another monument to man's stupidity [[like Boston's Big Dig) but at least it will be hidden from view.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

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Yes, it's a matter of convenience but not necessity. Detroit could economically perform without it, but may lose out if no action taken in the future because this could potentially be developable real estate.

The biggest joke I hear of people who visit Detroit is "it's got a lot of freeways to nowhere!" It certainly does and it certainly hasn't proven as a source of remarkable transformation in downtown business growth as planners thought nearly a half century ago.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Yes, it's a matter of convenience but not necessity. Detroit could economically perform without it, but may lose out if no action taken in the future because this could potentially be developable real estate.

The biggest joke I hear of people who visit Detroit is "it's got a lot of freeways to nowhere!" It certainly does and it certainly hasn't proven as a source of remarkable transformation in downtown business growth as planners thought nearly a half century ago.

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Tell you what, why don't we start by developing all the real estate standing around doing nothing? When we run out of that, them we can spend millions ripping out infrastructure to create more real estate. Supply and demand. I don't see how a canoe canal instead of a freeway is going to populate the City and "create jobs", though they are pretty pictures. We've done the grandiose projects, People Remover, River Walk, Dequindre Cut-Offs, where's the population? People come in, work for a bit, feed the Gilberts, Ilitches & Fords, then go home. Those guy's get revenue and tax breaks, we're back to square one. Maybe we should concentrate on the "nowhere" parts first?

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Maybe we should concentrate on the "nowhere" parts first?

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The reason we don't concentrate on the "nowhere parts", as you put it, is that they have near zero chance of success. Do some large scale redevelopment at Chene and Mack and see what happens. Just as the disinvestment didn't happen in a scattershot fashion - the rot occurred from the center out - reinvestment must happen incrementally by attaching to reinvestment [[or to areas that never faced the severest disinvestment in the first place). So you can talk about developing near downtown, near midtown, between downtown and midtown, or places like the Livernois - Seven Mile neighborhood, and you might succeed in the near to medium term.


Lest anyone misunderstand my reference to the intersection of Chene and Mack, I chose that location only because it's a pretty good distance away from any redevelopment that's going on right now.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Tell you what, why don't we start by developing all the real estate standing around doing nothing? When we run out of that, them we can spend millions ripping out infrastructure to create more real estate. Supply and demand. I don't see how a canoe canal instead of a freeway is going to populate the City and "create jobs", though they are pretty pictures. We've done the grandiose projects, People Remover, River Walk, Dequindre Cut-Offs, where's the population? People come in, work for a bit, feed the Gilberts, Ilitches & Fords, then go home. Those guy's get revenue and tax breaks, we're back to square one. Maybe we should concentrate on the "nowhere" parts first?

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Well, first of all, this is specious rhetoric, because we all know you don't give two shits about bringing Detroit back.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that you do care [[even though you don't). In explanation: Redevelopment of cities generally starts from certain locuses and spreads out from there as people find places within walking or biking distance of these "bubbles." You are seeing a rebound in downtown and midtown and Corktown right now. Therefore, the places best suited to redevelopment are those within walking distance of downtown, barring any barriers that make it difficult for people to cross. I-375 is both barrier and barren to development, making it a prime parcel if boulevarded.

In contrast, the expansion of I-94 would pose an obstacle to midtown's resurgence spilling over into New Center, removing bridges and expanding the car canyon.

Your suggestion that the city instead try to develop, say, a remote corner of the east side, far away from any established development, is an idea that is designed to fail. I daresay that's why you bring it up.

The important question is which is more cost-effective, renovating/maintaining 375 or tearing it out & building new? Is it really in bad enough condition where it's worth starting over instead of patching up what's there?

I'd like to see it removed, but if it does not make financial sense then it is just talk.

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Originally Posted by Zug

The important question is which is more cost-effective, renovating/maintaining 375 or tearing it out & building new? Is it really in bad enough condition where it's worth starting over instead of patching up what's there?

I'd like to see it removed, but if it does not make financial sense then it is just talk.

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Why not do like 696 near Southfield. Make a tunnel with green space on it to link the waterfront

Capping it is a possibility but it's more expensive than either maintaining it as it is or demolishing it and putting a normal park on top, but the traffic numbers don't support a freeway being there.

94 or 75 would be better for capping because they're needed, but divide parts of the city.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Well, first of all, this is specious rhetoric, because we all know you don't give two shits about bringing Detroit back.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that you do care [[even though you don't). In explanation: Redevelopment of cities generally starts from certain locuses and spreads out from there as people find places within walking or biking distance of these "bubbles." You are seeing a rebound in downtown and midtown and Corktown right now. Therefore, the places best suited to redevelopment are those within walking distance of downtown, barring any barriers that make it difficult for people to cross. I-375 is both barrier and barren to development, making it a prime parcel if boulevarded.

In contrast, the expansion of I-94 would pose an obstacle to midtown's resurgence spilling over into New Center, removing bridges and expanding the car canyon.

Your suggestion that the city instead try to develop, say, a remote corner of the east side, far away from any established development, is an idea that is designed to fail. I daresay that's why you bring it up.

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You're a regular Karnack, you know? Read everyone's mind and know what they think. Can you tell me tomorrow's lottery #'s? Why don't you do us all a favor and post your KKK photo? AND a City planner too? People want to bike, kayak, hike, but they can't make it one block to an overpass.

There really isn't any doubt that freeways serve as barriers between neighborhoods. Not only do people not like walking over/next to/around them, but as has been pointed out, there isn't anything interesting next to or over the roadway, so they discourage people from going in that direction at all.

I don't know if you were ever in Boston before the removal of the Central Artery, but I can tell you that the level of activity alongside and connection between the areas formerly separated by the freeway is very much increased. Whether that accomplishment was worth the vast cost is a reasonable question, but the improvement in the neighboring areas and the foot traffic between them really isn't arguable.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

While I don't disagree with a lot of what you wrote, Detroit never had a tenement housing issue as bad as what was chronicled by Jacob Riis and brought about modern planning. As far as substandard, that is a value judgement. Most of the housing in Corktown could be considered substandard, but I don't see people rushing to tear it down.

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There were been a couple of exhibitions/architectural panel discussions on Lafayette Park at a pop-up MIES space in the Lafayette Plaza. There were extensive discussions about the similarity of the housing stock of Black Bottom, to the east of Downtown, and Corktown, to the west - in regards to age, style, decay, etc.

Yet Black Bottom was chosen for "Urban Renewal"; many black folks called it "Negro Removal". There were, in fact, efforts to "urban renew" Corktown, and some of that community was destroyed [[and some was saved due to valient efforts to fight it) but it was nothing like the razing of the entire Black Bottom community.

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Originally Posted by marshamusic

Yet Black Bottom was chosen for "Urban Renewal"; many black folks called it "Negro Removal". There were, in fact, efforts to "urban renew" Corktown, and some of that community was destroyed [[and some was saved due to valient efforts to fight it) but it was nothing like the razing of the entire Black Bottom community.

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A six lane freeway plus service drives is a very wide bulldozer path.

Most urban renewal projects in various cities in the US were "negro removal" because that was generally considered to be the worst slum.

When I worked in the Bureau of Expressway design in the Water Board Building in 1961, all of the WP Chrysler planning documents spoke to the added advantage of the chosen route as "slum clearance".

Edit to add: At the time, we never used the interstate designations, but all correspndence and plans referred to the Ford, the Lodge, the Chrysler, and the Fisher.

I visited the beautiful Hayes Valley community in SFO, and was intriqued by the story of the neighborhood and its former freeway: http://www.preservenet.com/freeways/...ysCentral.html

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Originally Posted by wolverine

There's one that cut just NW of downtown Milwaukee. It was ripped out maybe in the last decade IIRC. Buildings are starting to fill in where it was.

Some people balked about how it was needed....but like I-375...it wasn't needed at all. Just excessive infrastructure that people used only because it was there.

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the park east freeway is the highway in question. lots of interesting history there.

http://www.cnu.org/highways/milwaukee

http://www.preservenet.com/freeways/...sParkEast.html

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Originally Posted by professorscott

The reason we don't concentrate on the "nowhere parts", as you put it, is that they have near zero chance of success. Do some large scale redevelopment at Chene and Mack and see what happens. Just as the disinvestment didn't happen in a scattershot fashion - the rot occurred from the center out - reinvestment must happen incrementally by attaching to reinvestment [[or to areas that never faced the severest disinvestment in the first place). So you can talk about developing near downtown, near midtown, between downtown and midtown, or places like the Livernois - Seven Mile neighborhood, and you might succeed in the near to medium term.


Lest anyone misunderstand my reference to the intersection of Chene and Mack, I chose that location only because it's a pretty good distance away from any redevelopment that's going on right now.

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Hello professorscott, Thanx for your reply. First of all, I didn't "put it", I was merely quoting the poster before me who said the phrase was the butt of jokes from visitors. I too have heard that in reference to the many paved streets on the East side of Detroit, ha-ha. I totally agree with you that putting luxury condos on the corner of Mack and Chene, [[my appologies, residents) will not produce an influx of wide-eyed yupsters and magic bean coffee houses, and either the project will literally be stripped of anything valuble, or will go into bankruptcy and abandonment shortly after opening. That approach has been previously tried in various parts of the City, and few of those developments are living up to expectations. Now, Let's look @ the term "development". Wikipedia defines it in "land use" context as "Land development, altering the landscape in any number of ways". IN ANY NUMBER OF WAYS. One way, of course is to build luxury condos or housing. Other ways could be to secure the area, and place a business on it. An excellent example is the Federal Reserve, roughly on Warren & Dequindre. One of the worst, bombed out, blighted, neighborhoods in Detroit, yet there it is. The Hantzes Tree Farm, [[hopefully) will be another example. That was the point I was trying to make. Midtown needs no help, it is being taken care of by investors, and seems to be growing just fine. Other neighborhoods, like the ones I cited, really need a shot in the arm. My point was going to be, before we start pissing away money that neither the State, County, or City has, removing infrastructure, and chasing butterflies, let's concentrate on trying to develop what's already available. To me it seems more prudent. Sorry for the tardy response, and thank you for allowing me to explain myself. Please, let the poo flinging and rash accusations continue.

I basically said the following on the other thread. Any "boulevarding" of I-375 north of Gratiot or at Gratiot would be extremely difficult. Cars exiting from the Fisher from the west can't safely exit Gratiot which clearly would have to have stop lights for a boulevard. There simply isn't enough room to slow down traffic coming off the Fisher and then stopping at a Gratiot stop light under a boulevard configuration. Also, the Madison exit would have to be eliminated. There's no way to reroute it into a boulevard.

It is possible to end the freeway south of Gratiot so that the boulevard begins just north of Monroe Street, but that cuts off the Greektown traffic trying to get on the freeway. That traffic would have to use a Michigan left right of way just south of Lafayette to head north. It's doable but Greektown visitors would be annoyed by the slow down.

A definite reason to eliminate the I-375 spur is because of its harmful effect on pedestrian traffic along Jefferson at UDM/SS Peter and Paul Church. Pedestrians in that area have to either walk over to Beaubien to get to the river or walk over to Rivard. Also, if access by car to the riverfront is desired from north I-375, then some type of tunnel from the median of the boulevard would have to created. I can't see a boulevard going south of Jefferson.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

My point was going to be, before we start pissing away money that neither the State, County, or City has, removing infrastructure, and chasing butterflies, let's concentrate on trying to develop what's already available. To me it seems more prudent.

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I think other areas of vacancy near downtown like Brush Park or areas behind the Fox will take care of themselves. They don't need any sort of big investment to repair. But the hundreds of millions of dollars to remove I-375 may be worth it if the timing is right. The funding doesn't necessarily have to come from the city or state. The majority could come from federal sources if the city can provide a compelling proposal.

That pretty picture at the beginning of the thread of the Chicago riverwalk is being paid for by federal taxpayers. So is our pricey $46 million bicycle bridge and our elevated pedestrian path. The city has asked for federal money in the past few years for area park and transit improvements that may as well be topping over $1 Billion by now. I understand your point that this is not #1 priority, but why not plan for it anyway. I really don't think anyone is suggesting that it is. But as I mentioned, funding may be available specifically for a type of project such as this and Detroit could compete for those dollars.

New Freep Article:
http://www.freep.com/comments/articl...surface-street