Printable View
The musicians have rejected the DSO management's offer. The Orchestra has been losing a pile of money and reportedly owes $54 million to some very unhappy lenders.
Will there ever again be a world-class symphony orchestra in Detroit, or are we simply not capable of any longer supporting such an endeavor? Was it suicide for the musicians to reject management's offer, or was it necessary? [[Or was it necessary but suicide anyhow?)
All thoughts welcome.
professorscott, I would like to post a link to the Detroit New's DSO strike timeline, for easy reference by DetroitYES! posters and readers, if this is ok by you. The Detroit News has really been doing a swell job covering this one.
http://detnews.com/article/20110220/...trike-timeline
If one reads [[or has been following the comments posted in the DNews and Freep) blame hits both sides but the opinion seems to have shifted away from support of the musicians. Pratically speaking, its bad for both sides, but one of the comments from the musicians side stated that this was not the time to change the model. Arts organizations that have adapted and adopted new models and approaches will survive. There many not be any National Endowment for the Arts left to channel any funds to Michigan, and the arts certainly aren't on Snyder's top ten list. The Opera and the DIA will likely benefit from the DSO's woes. The DSO can't sell a new season without a contract and rental and bookings won't bring in enough to operate the Hall. With the News reporting that the musicians have been released from their contracts, the DSO has no musicians employed at this point.
DSO is history, they are better off moving to another state
DSO had similar troubles decades ago and came back.
The real sore point for me is that the administration upped their demanded wage cuts during negotiations after the first offer was rejected - that's not good faith.
Yes, the DSO has financial problems but the administration's screw-up and money mishandling shouldn't be taken out of the musicians' pockets. Max Fischer set the DSO up well but then they went and screwed with his plan.
Management did not want to settle, so they made sure it didn't happen.
Laying aside the fight between management and musicians, this is ultimately driven by budgetary problems and recession-driven drops in corporate funding. A good place to start is this: all of the 20 to 30 to 40-something transplants who crow about the greatness of Detroit's culture [[compared to the soulless suburbs) need to actually support cultural institutions - with money, volunteering, fundraising, and [[did I forget to mention this?) money. Absent that, the city's cultural scene will end up looking like a BFA show in the middle of farmland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by professorscott
This is such a shame. I was very excited about buying DSO season tickets for the first time last fall, as the DSO had ads in our faculty orientation packets. I had other colleagues who were interested as well, and we talked about planning some fun outings. Unfortunately, it looks like we were hired a year too late.
It's okay for some alcoholic asshole who can hit a ball make $20,000,000/yr and drive around shitfaced, but so many people ready to write off The Detroit Symphony Orchestra asunnecessary and not viable[[cue the: 'I dont evr go their so y should they make so much $$$ 2 play a trumpet lol!') because world-class musicians are apparently undeserving of making just shy of six figures.
Whatever. The priorities here suck.
From today's New York Times...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/ar...nt&tntemail0=y
American Orchestra's at Carnegie Hall
Calling All Orchestras: Bring a Creative Program
If you go back and read the Detroit News article, "creative programs" do not appear to be on the front of the musicians list.
The difference is that the 20 million dollar asshole brings over 20 million dollars of revenue in, where the musicians don't. Sounds simple to me. So funny to me that you find it so proper to call Miquel an asshole just because he's rich, yet has a problem that millions of people have. How dare he!Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
Please enlighten us all as to the location this mythical land where a trumpet player makes more than a franchise player for one of that location's signature professional sports teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
It's " not viable" because it appeals to a very small segment of the local market's entertainment dollars. Maybe that is because this area is made up of too many knuckle dragging mouth breathers or maybe it's because that tiny segment of the local populace willing to support the DSO with regular attendance and donations is getting smaller by the day. either way, clearly lost on the DSO musicians is that hardly anyone has noticed they werent playing this year.
I know that the Orchestra has had a place in this city for quite a while, but classical music is not high up on the list for the vast majority of Detroiters, not to mention those suburban and exurban. The client base has been dwindling for a while, and the symphony management made no effort to actively engage a new generation of patrons. I think its done, as an institution.
What a quaint reply DetroitPole. Have you ever considered moving to be the SouthPole?Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
If he has a drinking problem, he can use some of his millions of dollars to call a cab, limo, rickshaw, private jet; whatever. I'm also sure he could use his millions to get some top-notch help that the rest of us don't have access to. I don't think he's an asshole for making 20 million dollars a year, I think he's an asshole for continually denying he has a drinking problem, driving around shitfaced, and then smirking in his mugshot. I'd be out of a job if I pulled that shit, and so should he.
I'm not advocating that musicians make as much as baseball players, but I think it speaks to our lack of values when we're all ready to up and disband a world-class orchestra when criminals down the street are making 20 million dollars a year, meanwhile everyone is up in arms that these musicians have the audacity to ask for an accountant's salary.
And yeah, things are different elsewhere, in other major cities, and especially around the world. There is a world outside of Metro Detroit. People have been voting with their feet and seeking it for the past decade. Let me know when New York starts talking about disbanding the philharmonic, okay?
"hardly anyone has noticed"Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
What qualifies you to speak on behalf of everyone?
Did you take a poll?
I believe you're projecting your own assumptions and biases onto everyone.
I'm with you on this one DetroitPole.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
If this strike doen't kill the DSO, it is my sincere hope that the shock of potentially losing this institution causes people to support our finer institutions.
Exactly. I am a passionate believer in museum membership, as well as membership in civic organizations. Such things the Greatest Generation took for granted -- my grandparents were Detroiters who instilled things like donating to PBS in my psyche. I think it's part of my social responsibility as someone who was able to climb out of the working class thanks to the largesse of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
Classical music does need to make a better case, though. I love it because of its emotional and mental health benefits, and play it during periods when I'm particularly stressed or want to relax. I also play it when I am writing or reading dense theory or research. However, thanks to receiving an excellent music education in DPS [[an institution that was waning when I was in school), I know my classical music well, both instrumental and vocal. Most kids and adults today simply haven't played in a school orchestra, or enjoyed a jazz theory course, so of course many people wouldn't get why the DSO is important.
In order to understand people who don't get music, I liken it to my feelings about art. I didn't have the best art education, so the first time I took my classes to the DIA back in 2000, I was bored out of my mind. I realized this meant I was ignorant as hell and addressed my ignorance by buying a DIA membership, asking artist friends to go with me to see the regular collection, and attending every special exhibition that I could. Then I spent several summers going to art galleries all over the United States and Europe. Today, I LOVE art and when things get too stressed in my WSU department, I head across Woodward for lunch at the DIA. So if I could transform from art hater to art lover in a decade, others could learn to love classical and/or instrumental music.
High culture is important because it represents humanity reaching for the highest form of self- expression. A masterpiece or a symphony is just as beautiful and awe-inspiring as a brilliant sports play. We just need to educate our children [[and their parents) to see that.
I hear they want to turn Orchestra Hall into a Cheesecake Factory and Houseof Blues.
I've heard that one of the sticking points in negotiations was the management wanted one specific instrumentalist out. Apparently, the rank and file has rallied around this person.
Don't know the back story, but this information was "dropped" on Let It Rip last night.
Based on that, they're not dead. Just more of the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baselinepunk
State of Emergency Mentality? Moi?
when would the next season begin, if at all?
who are the primary funders of the DSO?
One real problem is that anyone who WANTS to donate to support the symphony would just be handing their money over to the same administrators who have mismanaged the funding they already have.
How can one support the musicians and those who deserve it when these others stand in the way?
DSO didn't do Hip-Hop or Rap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggybear
Here is a website for the musicians:
http://www.detroitsymphonymusicians.org/
Coming from a Development background...primary funders for the DSO and Michigan Opera Theatre were the big corporations in town, including the autos. Both were totally devastated in the downturn of 2008 - 2009. The auto companies et al. went from giving tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars to zero. Goose egg. Nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypestyles
Other big funders are foundations and then old, old money.
This is true for nearly ever cultural institution in town, but especially for those two. Others who have fared better traditionally relied more on individual donors than the big corporate money.
What people sometimes fail to realize is that no museum/cultural institution pays for itself on admission revenue[[not even close to half, ever). The DSO, like the DIA, is not a live entertainment like a Red Wings game or Kid Rock - it is a cultural institution. It just worries me to see people drawing these false comparisons. We either can find funding for our cultural institutions, or they go away. They do not pay for themselves - neither do parks, or our beloved DIA [[at least I think it is...are people advocating that should go away now too?). It is simply something we have to find money for if we want to remain part of civilization.
These things we can never seem to find money for. However there is always an endless pot for baseball players and the military.
With the DSO in particular that no one is pointing out is that management still owes $54 million on the Max Fisher...a structure that seems mostly pointless to me. Lots of glass and empty space. Now they've got to pay the piper.
I do agree that the DSO needs to be more accessible to average people. That won't happen if they're gone though.
If there was such a groundswell of support for the institution, people would be stepping up to write checks to close the gap that is preventing management and the musicians from settling. I did not say EVERYONE. I meant MOST PEOPLE. if MOST PEOPLE in the metro Detroit area gave a flying fuck about the DSO, this conversation wouldn't be happening. That is not to say there arent a lot of people who do care. they are just vastly out numbered... and apparently unable to carry the financial burden any longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
And p.s... I don't think its a 'good thing' that the DSO is largely unsupported by the region, it's clearly reality though. As YOU are quick to point out, various pro sports teams have no trouble making payroll or servicing their debt.
Perhaps it's time Detroit and Detroitists start to scale back their expectations a bit. The DSO, DIA...MOT ...etc were created and largely funded by old money and the auto industry. The old money is dying off or diluted and the auto industry that these institutions relied on for a lions share of their yearly nut is half it's former size [[if that). When a household loses an income, it gives up the health club memberships and vacations and concentrates on the important things like keeping a roof over the families head.. Perhaps Detroit needs to recognize the reality that it's not a first line city anymore and can not still support "world class" cultural institutions. It can support "pretty good" ones though if it is smart about it.
Anybody know what the status is of Salute to America at Greenfield Village in early July? Always enjoy that event and the DSO is a big part of it. I'm curious if they'll still have it this summer with hopefully a resigned DSO or just bring in some other local orchestra [[people just like the ambiance of the village that time of year anyways).
I think it's too soon to tell, but this may be a break for the Dearborn Symphony.Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkytofu
Maybe people should be more interested in these things. Perhaps we needed a wake up call. Cleveland manages to support their world-class orchestra and they are half the metro that Detroit is. We have twice the population and easily twice the wealth, so either we are twice as unenlightened or the vast majority of people here are simply incapable of giving a shit about quality entertainment. If that's the case, I'd at least expect a world-class WWF performance venue based on our sheer population and wealth. Maybe watching enormous, greased up men pretend to pound on each other is more appealing to Metro Detroiters than listening to a symphony play classical music, but either way, where is the support?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
I'm 99% certain that Detroit holds the all time attendance record for a Wrestle-mania. I think there is your answerQuote:
Originally Posted by BrushStart
The other part of the problem is the eroding notion of the public good and the glorification of low culture. As a working class child, the Greatest Generation, the Silent Generation, and their forebears made sure that if I wanted to have a world-class education, there were institutions accessible to me. There were grand libraries, museums, and arts organizations so that I could aspire to something beyond myself.
Today, we denigrate the sublime and elevate the disgusting. Many people think achieving something in society means being a Real Housewife of Gaudy Location, a "guido" on the Jersey Shore, or a Bachelor/Bachelorette. Who wants to listen to Bach or Beethoven, or Marian Anderson, if you can be Snooki, NeNe, or Flavor Flav? Given what we've learned from documentaries like "Born Rich," today's heirs and heiresses have more in common with Paris Hilton than Ford's children and grandchildren, let alone the Kennedys, Carnegies, and Rockefellers.
And they are just emblematic of a society that is concerned with me and mine, self and selfishness, instead of what kind of legacy their children and grandchildren will inherit. Today's attitudes transcend races, ethnicities, classes, and religions, and I can't help but think that this is being encouraged on purpose. If you promote the worst in people, then they won't look beyond the real conditions of their existence and begin to question why things are the way they are... and they certainly couldn't care less about how their actions, preferences, and tastes influence the kind of life their offspring will have...
...but then again, from working in city and suburban schools, I know that there are significant numbers of today's parents who don't care a whit about their children and teens *today*, let alone whether they have any kind of future. How disgusting it is to squander the inheritance of our parents and grandparents, and to leave our children and grandchildren destitute! Future generations should -- and will -- condemn us.
I'm disgusted not just that this may be the year that the DSO dies, but as bailey says, that few in metro Detroit really care. This is the kind of "benign" neglect that killed so many of our other lost institutions. Anyone who isn't disturbed isn't much of a humanist, let alone a Detroitist.
Without concerts, it makes you wonder how the administration is paying the mortgage on the big addition to the MAX?Quote:
Originally Posted by lilpup
Two thumbs up!Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
I bet a lot of funders are donating to DSO hoping that the added funds will settle the strike. Poor naïfs. They don't understand management a bit.
Did I read it right the Musicians where making $80,000 per year plus benifits?
Thanks for the link to the musician's website. There's just no way you can pass off a world-class orchestra with budget talent. It is just something you cannot hide or pretend otherwise. No way, no how.
Yeah, I know. If you want a job as a fiddler, you should be prepared to make, like, you know, five bucks an hour or some shit. Blowin' on a tuba? Who cares. The DSO needs that money for the organization, not for people who tickle ivories and shit. They oughta be happy just to have a job. Sissies ...
THE ABOVE IS SARCASM/SATIRE
The model in the arts has to be changed - and yesterday was the time to do it.Quote:
... this was not the time to change the model.
Being a top 10 orchestra [[based on salary level) is not enough to engage and build an audience. Outreach, community engagement, lessons - these are activities that should be part of an artist's mission - their job.
The old silos just can't stand anymore.
I agree that management has made missteps and flubs. Hell, management in general - across all disciplines - has made missteps. And many many professionals and artisans have had their job roles expanded and their salaries cut.
Those in the Arts are all coming, or will come to the realization that scheduling another Romantic Classic with a pre-concert lecture is not enough to build an audience and engage the community. Sadly, orgs simply can't rely on schools to introduce and enlighten students through the arts [[despite the cry and need for creative thinkers and innovation). They have to do it - to guarantee that there is audience.
Hopefully the DSO will rise again. I have attended their concerts going back to 70s, worked for them in the 80s, and know some of the current musicians. If this year is a bust maybe it will rise again, but the model will have to change. And not just for the DSO.
English, you consistently post some of the most well thought-out and thought-provoking opinions on this board. I occasionally see things differently than you do but am always interested in your thoughts.
As to the topic of the thread - it occurs to me that if the current mess isn't straightened out by some good faith and good-hearted negotiation the city loses a valuable institution and the musicians may well find they have a long wait for another payday - anywhere. Seats in symphony orchestras aren't [[as my sainted mother liked to say) "hanging from trees" just to be grabbed. There are a great number a talented classical musicians out there begging for regular work.
Although Michigan Opera Theatre is also hurting, and all their staff had to take a pay cut... they are much better off financially than the DSO.
The Detroit Opera House was paid for piecemeal... as money came in, they continued with the restoration. Wisely the very last part of the Opera House proper that was restored were the exclusive opera boxes on the Mezzanine level. As long as the plasterwork in the opera box level remained unpainted and ungilded, they figured deep pocketed opera patrons would keep giving... smart move!
Also MOT had the foresight to build a parking structure that would help their bottom line. When not in use for Opera, the parking structure generates a lot of income for MOT from baseball/football games, as well as from the daytime downtown office workers, and evening downtown visitors.
Thanks for the compliment. As for the bolded, I agree with you. Since supply exceeds the number of seats in orchestras, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually have a symphony consisting of lesser players that will work for any amount that management is willing to pay. It seems as if every industry around the globe is going that way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastburn
Yes, two thumbs up on English's post.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
I have never understood why some people glorify the mindless idiots of the entertainment or sports world whether it is the Snooki types or the pro athletes that always seem to screw up. They get none of my money.
1. There's a little bit of rampant hyperbole that has to be mentioned, if just for the sake of the people who aren't familiar with the strike. The DSO will not go away, move, or disband. What will happen when they eventually settle, is that the DSO will become be a less talented, overworked orchestra. They'll be better than any community or city orchestra on this side of Cleveland and Chicago, but they won't be the first-class orchestra that we can brag to the rest of the world about.
As a Classical music fan, it pains me to say this and I feel slightly elitist, but the majority of people won't be able to tell the difference. 80% of the repertoire are pieces that are generally pretty easy for good musicians; familiar pieces that the DSO plays to fill seats. Early Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn are examples.
Where it will be felt is in our reduced resources to make recordings, tour to bring publicity to Detroit, provide good education and outreach, and we will lack the reputation and talent to bring stars in to perform concerto concerts. [[solos in front of the DSO) It goes without saying that the best musicians will bypass Detroit for Cleveland, Chicago, and the other 1st tier orchestras. The percussion section has already left for better gigs. The spots will be filled by good but but lesser talented musicians.
2. To the person who said that the orchestra would do better if they made it more accessible.
That's hardly the case. Tickets are very inexpensive, and even more so if you any kind of student, senior, and maybe even a AAA member; I'm not sure about that last one. Point is, I could walk up to Orchestra a half-hour before 90% of the concerts, not only stand in a small line, but am charged $10,$15. It costs me more to pay cover to see crappy bands at crappy clubs on a weekend.
They also play free concerts and put on educational events including concerts for children. My first DSO concert was seeing Peter and the Wolf with narration at Ford Auditorium. It was awesome and part of the reason that I grew up to like Classical music.
Like I mentioned above, they also play a lot of 'pop' Classical music that is very inviting to people without a lot of listening experience.
3. I'm trying to hesitate using sports analogies because there are so many differences, but in some instances helps bridge the understanding gap. There are those who will argue that not a lot of people like Classical music when compared to rock, pop, and rap; you're right, but when does popularity become the sole criteria to judging worth?
Most objective people would say NHL hockey is a failure. It is supported by something like 5% of Americans, has been delegated to channels like Vs. and jockeying for position against weightlifting on NBCs Saturday afternoon lineup. Compare that to the NFL. People here, however, would say it would be heresy to drop the league. The Red Wings are a tradition; people love them; they hold a special place in your heart. Some fans have dedicated all of their free time and energy to watching games on TV when they can find them [[I like hockey quite a bit, incidentally).
Like hockey fans, there are a small percentage of loyal fans of Classical music. They know in Detroit that it is a tradition, with people who love and cherish the music. They dedicate their free time attending concerts, learning pieces and musicians.
The Red Wings are like the DSO in that they are both winning organizations and have been for a long time. Even when the Wings aren't good, they're "good". From a pure business standpoint, Illitch could look at the books and think, "why do I want to dump all of this extra money into going out and getting superstars? I'm paying a ton of money for them, and we could still retain fans with a mediocre team." The DSO is the Red Wings of the Classical world. They are on the top, year after year, making other cities impressed and inspired by us. Some are even jealous and resentful of this city, because "why Detroit and not us?" Why not them, because we spent years cultivating and gathering this talent. They are something, even if you're not a fan, be proud of because we do it better than almost anyone else. It gives us an international rep and puts more cultural value to a city that desperately needs anything it can get right now. You don't have to love it to understand that it is good for Detroit.
I'll leave you with this thought:
If you chop down a beautiful, majestic tree, it takes along time for it to grow back.
Unlike the Wings, the DSO will not be able to restore itself in a short amount of time. It will be years, if ever, that we see a group like this that we claim for our own.
Well, just finished reading this article in the Chicago Tribune about attendance at cultural events...
after reading this, if anyone still thinks the old model at Detroit and every other organization still works, the arts in this country should be declared dead...bluntly old white people are dying out and the Black and Latino audiences aren't attending. And before someone starts on me for that comment, I am one of the aging white folk.
DetroitBOB
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entert...,2820382.story
Wonder how they're affected with the fraud charges their lawyer now has.
The DSO is not alone. The Philadelphia Symphony has declared bankruptcy.
http://www.philly.com/philly/enterta...tml?page=1&c=y
Total revenue was $33 million from this season's ticket sales, fund-raising, endowment income and other revenue. That won't cover its $46 million operating costs. Musicians were being asked to accept a 16% pay cut and other concessions. Now they have filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
Sound familiar?
Well, according to the DSO [[and a couple of friends who attended both concerts last weekend) they had 3000 people for the Rhapsody in Blue weekend concerts. I attended Thursday night and it appeared to be around one thousand people and the second concert had a "almost full house" . Thursday nights crowd seemed to be a bit younger than the normal Thursday night symphony crowd, however there also was a crowd of U of M students as the Tango Symphony by Rush was debuted...he is a composer at U of M School of Music.
As a followup to my last post: My forecast was correct: he DSO is back, but with lesser talent in key areas. Still a very good orchestra. Get out and support it! The season is about to start.
Not necessarily "lesser" talent, but new talent. Season ticket sales have improved over this time last year.
I am really disappointed with the schedule this year. Would love to see Symphonie Fantastique, but have absolutely no desire to see William Tell yet again. Precious little imagination for the whole season. Maybe one concert appeals to me
Same here, I'm spending my DSO money on Lions games this year.