overpass collapse

I'm sure a lot of detroiters will want to look at this from a standard post-apocalyptic point of view.
I am referrig to today's news about I-94 and I-96 collapse. I hope no one was seriously hurt in the car that fell from the overpass. The weather in Detroit is very similar to ours in Montreal, and it helps to bring things into perspective. A lot of cities went through the same craze of overbuilding and never thought twice about the cost of maintenance back in the day. We have had a growing number of these incidents in the past 5 years to a point where the biggest interchange in the city will be demolished and rebuilt as a ditchlike freeway instead of an elevated one. Here's a report about one overpass collapse a couple of years ago;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...77009#15077009

The earlier collapse they mention happened while the overpass was being built ten years a go. The contractors had let the structure unhinged. A concrete span was installed over the highway on a friday afternoon without proper structural support and crushed a passing car killing 3 people headed for a formula 1 race in the city. Everytime I drive over and under the Turcot overpasses I wonder if I will make it. It is in a really bad state and is right next to downtown. The nightmare of jackhammer and cranes for the next ten years is daunting. A 42 year old structure eroded by tons of ice, water and salt. The steel structure is corroded and pushes huge chunks of concrete outward.

This is the Turcot interchange slated for demolition and rebuilding[[?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turcot_Interchange

Symptoms of a greater and deeper illness.

This is just the first taste of the collapse of our empire, and an unusually apt metaphor.

If our governments want to adapt, they ought to be radically shifting transportation allocation, away from new freeway and road construction, and toward mass transit and maintaining the existing roads and bridges we have. Some freeways will need to be removed because they are too costly to maintain. Expansions and extensions will have to be canceled. Hopefully the north I-75 expansion will be canceled! I don't see what is so crazy about every mid to large sized city getting a transit system. The freeways were built almost overnight, why can't the same be done with transit?

Uh....mass transit needs bridges too.

^ And to be maintained. Here's a rail bridge over Halsted in Chicago. The other pier looks just like it. It's probably okay for now, but will need replacement in a few years.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3659/...cee8f21f_b.jpg

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

I don't see what is so crazy about every mid to large sized city getting a transit system. The freeways were built almost overnight, why can't the same be done with transit?

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Because most people aren't in favor of being forced to subsidize things that don't benefit them and that they are never going to use.

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Originally Posted by casscorridor

The freeways were built almost overnight, why can't the same be done with transit?

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Duh, hardly. In Detroit alone the Davison was started in the late 1940's, the Lodge shortly after and on and on. The Jeffries was started in the early 70's [[I think) and the last major expressway was I-696 which took a very long time because the east portion was completed in the 70's and the west section in the late 1980's. Not exactly 'overnight'.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

^ And to be maintained. Here's a rail bridge over Halsted in Chicago. The other pier looks just like it. It's probably okay for now, but will need replacement in a few years.

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See what happens when evil mass transit tries to drive auto companies out of business. Serves them right. I think I'll start a thread on "Removing Chicago's L-train." :)

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I am referrig to today's news about I-94 and I-96 collapse. I hope no one was seriously hurt in the car that fell from the overpass.

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I now live out of state. Can someone tell me about this collapse? I've checked the News and Free Press websites, but can't find anything about it.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by rodj44137

I now live out of state. Can someone tell me about this collapse? I've checked the News and Free Press websites, but can't find anything about it.
Thanks!

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me too. nothing on the 4 o'clock news

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Originally Posted by Retroit

See what happens when evil mass transit tries to drive auto companies out of business. Serves them right. I think I'll start a thread on "Removing Chicago's L-train." :)

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So as long as they reduce the cost of parking downtown.

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Originally Posted by canuck

I am referrig to today's news about I-94 and I-96 collapse. I hope no one was seriously hurt in the car that fell from the overpass.

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What on Earth are you taking about? I just drove the interchange today and saw nothing. I checked the news outlets and don't see anything about an overpass collapse. This would be huge news if it happened.

I believe that the interchange in question is the I-94/M-39 [[Southfield Fwy.) interchange. And it has not collapsed, but under some specific [[undetermined) danger. MDOT is investigating, and I believe only I-94 traffic is affect while MDOT does its' study of one of the bridges. Not sure if it's a complete closure or only a reduced lane closure.

It's somewhat part of my job to monitor traffic on these two freeways [[I-96 and I-94).

I-96 was closed for a while due to a roll over accident. Other closures were for scheduled construction. The closing/lane reductions of sections of both of our major East and West bound freeways slowed everybody down, but wasn't that big of a deal. Most people ended up taking the Grand River or Michigan Avenue radials into and out of Downtown, as well as various grid roads. No big issue so long as you heard about the problems, and were aware of Detroit's many redundant roadways.

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Originally Posted by EMG

Because most people aren't in favor of being forced to subsidize things that don't benefit them and that they are never going to use.

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I use it for a backup right now, but am finding my short excursions up the radials to be less stressful, but dislike trips where I have to transfer. In my suburban days, I wouldn't have minded helping to pay for better mass transit if it reduced wear on roads, rush hour traffic, smog, the twice daily gridlock on I-94, I-75, I-696, I-275, Mound Road, Five Mile and Plymouth Road, after any public small or large sporting event, at the local carnival, at the Taco Bell drive thru when the bars let out, etc.

Mass transit that people actually use also does wonders for getting drunks off the road at night, while your sixteen year old daughter is out in a limousine for her high school's homecoming dance.

Hell I was in Boston this past summer and never used a taxi once. All light rail and subway. Getting around town was so fast as compared to what it would have taken in a car, plus it was really cheap compared to a cab ride. Initially it may seem like a lot in terms of money, but going to a city that actually HAS mass transit really opened my eyes to what the benefits are. We're only about, oh, 30 years behind them.

^ Even better when it's free. Walk and bike everywhere. I have a subway stop about two blocks from my apartment but rarely use it. Still wouldn't mind having a car around for when I need it for trips out of the city. Problem is a parking space is like paying rent.

I used the subway when I lived in LA...had to switch to a bus for my Wilshire Boulevard connection towards Beverly Hills from the Red Line...but it was SUCH a welcome relief from the ugly driving there, it totally changed this Detroit-boy's understanding of public transportation and the absolute NEED for it.


Oddly enough, I suffered some extreme reverse-discrimination on the bus, though. I'd be working on my Palm Pilot and occasionally making phone calls, and when I'd look up I'd have all eyes on me pleading the unspoken judgment, if I could afford THOSE why was I not driving?!

LA is a strange place, and we have that same damn deathly destructive spirit hovering around our consideration of this wonderful socialist ideal. Gee, I wonder why? I declare it to be a sickness, plain and simple selfishness to the extreme.


Anyone opposed to enhanced and upgraded public transportation is simply joining the worst of the population, doing their best to keep those beneath them down and out. I simply cannot understand this sort of behavior.


Cheers

Television news reported the problem as "crumbling pavement".

I-94 bridge fixes called 'smart catch'

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State officials say a bridge over eastbound Interstate 94 that slightly sank Thursday needs repairs but wasn't about to collapse or endanger motorists.

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Please change the title of this thread. Thanks

Sorry for the scary bit about the I-96, There was an accident involving twin brothers when their car
crashed down an embankment. There was a collapse of a couple of inches on the I-94 though.

No you are just exaggerating the problem. The bridge structure deviated from its normal position, and needed to be fixed now rather than later. Not a big deal.

Haven't read the thread, but this was obviously built poorly to begin with. A shearing failure under normal conditions, totally unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Haven't read the thread, but this was obviously built poorly to begin with. A shearing failure under normal conditions, totally unacceptable.

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Everyone's a God damned engineer, huh?

It's called "maintenance". Every built structure requires it. You think you can just erect steel and leave it outdoors for decades and it will never be subject to deterioration?

If you take all your transportation dollars and put them into new freeways, you don't have money left over to maintain what you have. It's really that simple.

Glad to know that on the basis of reading a thread title, you're able to determine that the bridge suffered a shear failure under normal operating conditions, due to inadequate steel erection. Pretty impressive for someone with no engineering background or experience whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Everyone's a God damned engineer, huh?

It's called "maintenance". Every built structure requires it. You think you can just erect steel and leave it outdoors for decades and it will never be subject to deterioration?

If you take all your transportation dollars and put them into new freeways, you don't have money left over to maintain what you have. It's really that simple...

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I agree and it is really that simple. I get so pissed when I see the state building a NEW road while the roads I have to drive on are a crumbling mess! There should be a moratorium on building ANY new roads until all the existing ones can be properly maintained.

I'd like an update on the Crumbling bridges tied to bad concrete story from the Detroit News back on April 2, 2007.

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Nearly 10% of state's bridges built with [experimental coarse aggregate concrete]; fixes will run $500,000 per
structure....

6,700 bridges owned by municipalities may also be impacted.

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Quote: "Pretty impressive for someone with no engineering background or experience whatsoever."

The people that work for me should get a good laugh out of that..

I stand by what I said, nothing should fail with such little conclusive evidence to deem a failure is imminent. If you think this is acceptable, you're wrong, If you're one of the people that designs these things, I understand why they are failing, falling without warning.

GhettoP, keep the hits coming, every time you flap your gums on these threads you get owned. Funny stuff. You speak in absolutes and absolutely know nothing. You prove it over and over.

Furthermore, You can keep your fucking comments about me to your self. Address the post and leave me the hell out of it. I say one thing on a thread and you go on the attack, personally. Go read the rules.

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Pretty impressive for someone with no engineering background or experience whatsoever."

The people that work for me should get a good laugh out of that..

I stand by what I said, nothing should fail with such little conclusive evidence to deem a failure is imminent. If you think this is acceptable, you're wrong, If you're one of the people that designs these things, I understand why they are failing, falling without warning.

GhettoP, keep the hits coming, every time you flap your gums on these threads you get owned. Funny stuff. You speak in absolutes and absolutely know nothing. You prove it over and over.

Furthermore, You can keep your fucking comments about me to your self. Address the post and leave me the hell out of it. I say one thing on a thread and you go on the attack, personally. Go read the rules.

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Riddle me this, Sstashmoo:

Was the "shear failure" due to:

A. Shear failure of a steel framing member?
B. Shear failure through a connection?
C. Shear failure through the vertical studs embedded in the concrete deck?

You're drawing conclusions [[again) on information you do not have, and experience you do not have. That's not a personal attack--that's just you being a cocky know-it-all prick. Even if you were a structural engineer, you have no first-hand knowledge of this problem. Yet you have all the answers. If I was as reckless as you, I'd lose my license, plain and simple.

From the Detroit News article:

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Nabil Grace, the dean of the engineering school at Lawrence Technological University in Southfield and a bridge expert, said the problem discovered by MDOT engineers showed a "permanent deflection" in the structure and did need to be shut down and repaired.

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"Permanent deflection" indicates a plastic deformation of horizontal steel members due to flexural stresses. Since I'm just a windbag who gets "owned" on these threads, I'll allow a genius like you, Sstashmoo, to explain how "shear failure" causes plastic deformation due to flexure. I do not have any first-hand knowledge of this problem, so I cannot comment as to the actual conditions observed.

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Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

I stand by what I said, nothing should fail with such little conclusive evidence to deem a failure is imminent. If you think this is acceptable, you're wrong.

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I know I don't need to remind you of this, Sstashmoo, since you already know everything. But for the public benefit:

1. This bridge did not "fail". It experienced a "permanent deflection", according to engineers who have examined the bridge. Deflection is a serviceability concern--not an issue of strength. All structures deflect to some extent. To call a deflection a "failure" is to show ignorance of the nature of structures.

2. There are materials that do fail without indication, which is why we have the term "brittle failure". Unreinforced concrete [[and other cementitious materials) is one of them. Cast iron is another. Even drywall, if loaded will be subject to brittle modes of failure. There are many more. See how many examples you can find of brittle materials in your own home!

Quote: "Was the "shear failure" due to:


"A. Shear failure of a steel framing member?
B. Shear failure through a connection?
C. Shear failure through the vertical studs embedded in the concrete deck?""

D - All of the above. The thing is on top of two cars if you haven't noticed, while you were preoccupied with with "deflection", "members" and "plasticity" or some such nonsense.

This thing fell with little warning. Unacceptable, I stand by that.

Your last two posts, remind me of the nimrods that were trying to determine why the WTC towers fell after the jets flew into them. A 747 airliner flew into them, that's why they fell!!. Did they think this research was going to lead to structures that are 747 proof eventually? What a waste of time and money.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Everyone's a God damned engineer, huh?

It's called "maintenance". Every built structure requires it. You think you can just erect steel and leave it outdoors for decades and it will never be subject to deterioration?

If you take all your transportation dollars and put them into new freeways, you don't have money left over to maintain what you have. It's really that simple.

Glad to know that on the basis of reading a thread title, you're able to determine that the bridge suffered a shear failure under normal operating conditions, due to inadequate steel erection. Pretty impressive for someone with no engineering background or experience whatsoever.

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Only fault I see here is that we have not built a new road or widened a freeway around here in the last 15 years. With the exception of the M-59 widening to begin soon, the only one that comes to mind is the M-5 connector [[in the early 1990's). M-59 was only done because of stimulus funds, otherwise it would have never gone. The bigger issue here is that we underfund transportation in this state terribly, we don't even have the dollars coming in from the regular resources to properly maintain our roads and bus fleets. Ohio has a higher gas tax than Michigan [[$0.29 vs $0.19) and has the added advantage of being a big pass through state as well as a toll state.

I agree though it ain't rocket science.

Our taxpayers at work. Re-fix that crumbling concrete.

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A 747 airliner flew into them

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You must mean 767.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

You must mean 767.

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Yeah, airliners crashed into two buildings. So, um, that's why two buildings fell that day. Oh, wait ...

MDOT spokesman Rob Morosi said bridge inspectors decided to close the left and center eastbound lanes after an MDOT engineer driving the freeway Thursday noticed that pavement on those lanes appeared to have dropped by a quarter to half an inch.

Morosi said the bridge wasn't in danger of a catastrophic failure, and the state would have shut down the overpass completely if MDOT were more concerned about its condition.

"The inspectors weren't comfortable with what they saw, so you're going to err on the side of caution," Morosi said. After crews performed detailed inspections "we decided we have to make the move right now, take the freeway down to one lane, get an emergency contract, and get this repaired as soon as possible."

http://www.freep.com/article/2010030...epairs-planned


Yup. Sure sounds like three simultaneous modes of catastrophic shear failure to me. :rolleyes:

There's been a problem there for nearly two years; I'm surprised it's being addressed just now. Over a year ago, when traveleing in the left or center lane at the west end of the bridge, it was like hitting a speed bump. The left lane was worst, the right lane was still smooth. It got worse as the seasons changed to the point I thought it would pop tires or bend rims. Then road crews patched the seam and it was a smooth ride for several months. Since the end of last summer the problem appeared again, although not as bad as it was before the patch.

And I thought it was just me that noticed that! When I read that they were closing it because the pavement was sinking I thought "they're just noticing that NOW?" Hell at least one time in the past year they went out and added some asphalt to smooth out the ride. Someone had to have known it was slipping.