I found this 2005 thread in the archives and thought it was worth revisiting:
http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/61765.html
Nine years later, post-recession, what has changed?
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I found this 2005 thread in the archives and thought it was worth revisiting:
http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/61765.html
Nine years later, post-recession, what has changed?
Bloomfield Hills replaced the Pointes as the region's wealth center 30-40 years ago. They're on completely different trajectories, and not really comparable.
"Fall from grace" is a bit of stretch. In NY, the Upper East Side was the place for the moneyed class to live. Now, younger people with money prefer downtown and Brooklyn, or if they have kids, the Upper West Side. So demos do change, even in rich communities. But guess what? The Upper East Side is still pretty damn rich. I can't think of a community that I have lived in or visited extensively whose demos haven't changed.
I was talking with a former longtime resident of Grosse Pointe who told me that part of the problem with rehabilitating the reputation of the Pointes is the area's reputation for being restricted and WASPy. One joke that came up in the conversation was the idea that the best thing that could happen to the area would be for 10,000 wealthy gay couples to move into the Pointes and lavish their disposable income on those beautiful old homes. But there's the rub, as my friend saw it: The sort of young and well-to-do people the Pointes need don't necessarily like the idea of living in that kind of exclusive enclave, with the kind of baggage it carries.
Bear in mind, this was a conversation about perceptions. I'd be interested in actual statistics from, say, 2010 vs. 2000.
On the Grosse Pointe side from my 40 plus year experience. GP for the most part is not for those in their 20's or 30's but once the children of many of those mentioned above get to school age GP becomes quite attractive.
I can say right not that there are three homes for sale on my street. Five years ago there were up to 30 homes for sale on University Place at any given time. My realtor friends are all crying about the lack of homes to sell.
As for this thread its all Bull***t!
As to the OP's question, probably just like Detroit's best days are behind it.
That doesn't mean Detroit can't be an attractive to live/wirk/play again, and that diesn't mean Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills won't continue to be attractive places to live.
Grosse Pointe's WASP character, while not yet extinct, has gradually changed, and exerts its influence more in matters of style than economic dominance. Newer Pointers probably couldn't tell a canon in the undercroft from a nerf gun in the basement, but they like the discreet patination of well made and finely aged buildings, interiors and landscaping. Ralph Lauren tries, crudely, to evoke such images for a mass market, but Grosse Pointe evolved through time, study and care, not market testing. Grosse Pointe's unspoken elephant in the living room, however, is an inconvenient proximity to a place thought dangerous and unlovely by many, and that's why it's real estate values lag. Just imagine the price the price a house like 211 Vendome would bring in Bel-Air, Greenwich or Hillsborough, where Carolands, bigger but no grander than Rose Terrace, still stands and even gets books written about it, while 211 sits unsold.
Hmmm. A2M, I gotta say that your remarks ring true, and yet ... it can't all be proximity to Detroit. As somebody familiar with marketing toward millennials, which is probably the most studied and market-tested generation ever, I see where the Pointes might not rate very well with them, for instance. And there is some baggage that goes with a certain reputation for ... putting it as politely as possible, a lack of tolerance and diversity. Doesn't it just seem a bit pat to blame Detroit ... yet again?
Just for instance, Ferndale borders Detroit and attracts young people who enjoy going into the city, if not living there. Is it perhaps also that Grosse Pointe traditionally attracts people who don't enjoy going into the city?
I think Grosse Pointe's future depends on downtown. If the greater downtown area grows then I can imagine GP would be very attractive to middle aged people who have high paying jobs downtown. It's a shorter drive than bloomfield, and it's more walkable which someone used to doing business downtown might appreciate. But I don't think there's going to be enough stuff in macomb county to keep GP rich.
I always thought the population of Bloomfield Hills is aging much faster than in GP. At least, from everything I have seen and read, BH has an older population. I could be wrong.
I also suppose some people think that GP is far more isolated from "everything" than the west side enclaves. Everyone points to the lack of nightlife and shopping in GP. One other view is that GP has a much stronger connection to Detroit than Bloomfield Hills and the other wealthy west side communities.
Another thing that people tend to overlook is the amount of liquid wealth in the Grosser Pointes, compared to elsewhere in the Detroit area. Bloomfield probably has higher annual income and earning power, but I bet there is more liquid wealth in the Grosse Pointes, even in 2013.
I've lived in Grosse Pointe Woods on Lochmoor for 19 years. Before that I lived in Harper Woods for 23 years on Eastwood. I think that when I moved to Grosse Pointe Woods in '94 it was really the peak of the area's wealth. In fact I paid about 125,000 more for my house than it is worth now. In 1994. At least I moved from Harper Woods, my old house there is worth so much less than I paid for it. My street has many families like mine whose kids graduated in the 90's and decided not to move. I've heard some people mention that GP has a very WASP feel and I wanted to say that that is really centered in GPF and GPS, when I moved to GPW I was Catholic and my kids went to Catholic schools and no one ever mentioned it to me. In order to attract new people it is a stereotype we must break.
Bham1982, What trajectory do you think the GP's are on?
I think the Pointes will always be fine and relatively desirable, but I do think the home values have suffered relative to Oakland County [[though admit I'm biased). Compare GP Park to Birmingham. I live in Birmingham and will admit the architecture in GP Park is 100 times better. No tacky mega-bigfoot homes, and relatively few bungalows/future teardown jobs. Yet Birmingham real estate values blow away the Pointes. I think, very conservatively, per square foot values run 2 to 2.5 times those of the Pointes. In Birmingham, 500k will not give you a family sized house and definitely nothing renovated and non-bungalow; in the Pointes it will give you something big, beautiful and distinctive, and in move-in condition.
I Agree, Bham. In my own case I have lost over 125,000 on my home. In fact I think one of the reasons some of the best houses don't sell is because they are expensive and the reality is that they're not going to increase in value.
I don't think that's true. 696, the most strategic freeway in the region, forms the northern border of Ferndale, and is accessed by fast-moving Woodward. I-94, nowhere near as strategic, doesn't run in the Pointes, is accessed via much slower local roads, and sits in the ghetto. And Ferndale is surrounded by "useful things" on most sides [[downtown Royal Oak, people's jobs in Southfield, etc.) while the Pointes surrounded by water to the east, slums to the west, and perfectly fine but anonymous Macomb bungalows to the north. Where are the shops, restaurants and services?
Feel free to snicker, but I bet this is an issue to some folks. You basically have to travel through some of the worst slums in the U.S. to get anywhere. I would not enjoy crossing the Alter "Berlin Wall" just to get decent sushi, groceries, or a pair of pants. The Pointes are gorgeous but isolated, IMO. Ferndale is bland architecturally and poor schools but strategic location.
Yup. Pleasant Ridge and Huntington Woods are now significantly more expensive than the Pointes, which I'm not sure was always the case. To illustrate for Birmingham, take Poppleton Park, which is a nice family neighborhood in Birmingham, not the richest area in the city, and relatively few teardowns, but upscale and better than average for the city. Slight discount for East of Woodward. The cheapest home is 535k and not very nice and off a main road, most homes are in 700k-900k range, grand homes and newer construction all north of $1 million.
Im with bham on this. I-696 is definitely the more strategic highway compared to I-94. I-94 is ugly, gritty, and gross. And the cities through which it goes are generally struggling blue collar communities at best or dirty, blighted, neighborhoods with crime issues at worst.
if the neighborhoods bordering I-94 were Boston Edison, Palmer Woods, and Indian Village, people would have a totally different perception of Detroit. Unfortunately, instead of putting our best foot forward, the view from I-94 is some of the worst parts of the city.
Obviously that's no ones "fault" but we shouldn't be ignorant of it. Image does matter.
As for GP, I think it might be a bit premature to say its best days are being it. A lot can change in 10-20 years, and I think that GP property will rise if Downtown becomes seen as a regional attraction and if East English Village cleans up the blight and crime issues.
I know that many Detroiters resent now much focus goes downtown....and understandably so. But even with the recent progress, I think it is fair to say that 50-60+% if the 4,000,000 Metro Detroiters still perceive downtown as dangerous. Now obviously that perception is not accurate IMHO. But it will take another decade or more to start really changing the perception of outsiders. When they see Detroit as a place to explore and enjoy rather than a place to avoid, GP will take off once again.
The advantage that it has puts its head and shoulders above the Oakland County competitors... Coastal property on Lake St Clair. That's a total game changer.
I wonder if Bham has actually spent much time around the Pointes? The Pointes are actually pretty self-contained. Most of my relatives who live out there rarely leave, except to go to events downtown. They do most of their shopping, etc., on Kercheval or on Mack out past Moross. Part of the reason that there are so few restaurants and bars, and why they often struggle in GP, is that Pointers have not generally been a big going-out crowd. They have always tended to stay home at night, eat with their families, etc.
We rented in Gpp for the schools for our kids. I didn't find it too stuffy, mostly I was amused. Like the lab retriever dressed in a rain slicker complete with hat and booties. It is or at least was quite racist. That was not amusing.
Kids got through school and we made a bee line back to Detroit. EEV for 7 years [[great community) and now Islandview, another great community. I guess our house is big but it doesn't feel that way. Our home value is close to nothing being Detroit and all. But I am not selling so don't care. In fact we continue to invest in our home.
I went to a ritzy party in GPS and an old lady complimented me on my outfit then informed me it was 5 yrs out of date. Like I could care. I am typing this with my hair in a pony tail, no make up, wearing a hoodie and sweats.
Someone mentioned on this thread that Detroiters resent the attention to downtown/midtown and yes we do.
Jobs and amenities, obviously. 696 is the main east-west corridor for the region.
If you're doing a long-distance drive to somewhere out-of-state, it doesn't really matter whether you're exactly on the direct freeway or not. No one cares if you're 300 or 310 miles from a once-a-year destination; they do care if you're 5 or 15 miles from a daily destination.
Then she wasn't from Grosse Pointe. If anything, Pointers are not trendy. It's the home of the mint condition 10-year-old luxury car. I think the most popular car is still the pre-GM Saab wagon.
So GP schools were good enough for your kids, but GP wasn't good enough to live in? Interesting.
That's what I was thinking. I always thought of the Pointes as anti-trendy.
The Bloomfields and nearby areas are where you see all the bling. Bentleys, Ferraris and other high end vehicles are common in good weather. Women wear Louboutins when they go out, and four-figure purses are the norm. Obviously not everyone is like that [[I personally know few people like that) but you see it everywhere you go. Scary thing is that a lot of these blingy people actually don't make that much money.
The Pointes have the stereotype of having sensible folks driving old Saabs and Volvos, clipping coupons, and eating simple dinners at home. Compare the scene at Papa Joes in Birmingham, with its perpetually tanned Real Housewife types and "casual cafe" with $30 entrees and then visit a grocery store in the Pointes [[say Trader Joes or Kroger in the Village). Like another galaxy, though probably the bank accounts aren't radically different.
Actually she was in her 70's and lived next door forever to the home where the catered party took place. I thought she was just rude.
I liked GPP just fine, walkable and so forth we made many neighbor friends The schools were adequate but not stellar. Please remember we lived there for many years, were involved in civic activities,,schools and church.
I am not slamming areas, we just are city people so hell yes we returned to our roots quickly. Detroit is my home. It just feels real.
Sumas, just from reading your many post on here makes me wish you were MY neighbor. I think I would be truly honored. You seem so cool, down to earth and 'real' as you say.
I doubt if you'd want to move so how about letting us know if the place next door goes up for sale and I'll see if I can beat the fellow DYES'rs to it!:)
The amazing thing about GP is how many people are 3rd, 4th and 5th generation. They head off to college, go elsewhere for 1st jobs, but many come back when they start to raise children. I have lived here for over 50 years and have lived in a grand total of 3 different homes, including my parents' house.
Shores
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Farms
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Park/City
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Woods
Is that about right, GP folks? I think, in terms of pricing/prestige, that's basically it. Obviously there are variations, though. Anything close to the water is expensive, and anything close to Mack is affordable. Woods definitely has the most non-fancy streets, and almost doesn't feel like a Pointe in parts. It's just newer.
I live in Grosse Pointe and think its just fantastic. Great old homes on tree lined streets, close to the lake and downtown. There are some stuffy people there, but most are not. The stuffy ones just make you laugh.
If I could change one thing about the Grosse Pointes, it would be related to Eastland. When my wife and I want to go to a bix box retailer or chain restaurant, we usually go to Macomb Mall or Hall Road. I have followed many a Grosse Pointer on I-94 to and from those destinations over the years.
Don't get me wrong - I love the small retailers and family owned restaurants in the Pointes, but sometimes you just need cheaply made Chinese goods and low-quality mass-appeal food, and it would be nice to have better access to these things.
1953
Mark,
Well GP has gone down in the sense that almost every resident has lost significant value on their house in the last 20 years. People still buy houses here, a lot of doctors for St. John and people that work downtown and have kids. The mega mansions are having a very hard time selling. In fact one of my favorite houses is 211 Vendome which has had a very hard time selling. People mostly send their kids to public schools, they are good if you are a good parent to your kids and push them for the best. Some of the wealthiest people go to University Liggett School which I think offers a pretty good education. My kids went to St. Peter and Bishop Gallagher in Harper Woods and I went to Notre Dame myself. I feel like the WASP factor is harmful because people don't feel like they would fit in in Grosse Pointe.
Bham,
I agree, although I feel like the part of GPW I live in has more in common with the Shores as opposed to the rest of the Woods.
Yeah, at least from an outsiders perspective, it seems that pricing isn't really super-correlated with which municipality, but rather the quality of the street and distance from either the lake and Detroit. The Shores is most expensive because it's basically 100% along the lake.
GP has the most incredible housing stock in Metro Detroit, off the water and for the best prices. Being 15 minutes from downtown, its the perfect suburb to accept the aging generation of young professionals that loves a downtown Detroit.
Grosse Pointe will never be as wealthy as before [[as the Nation or State) but it is and will always be a strong, wonderful place to live if you're over 30 years old.
Well, with that picture, I can't imagine any place in Michigan less appealing to me that the Bloomfields or Birmingham. I think I'd rather live next to a crack house than next to people that live in SE Michigan and think $1,000+ purses are necessary to keep up with the Jones
I've noticed that people from the Grosse Pointes will describe themselves as being "from Detroit," but folk from Birmingham or Bloomfield want to make a distinction between themselves and the city; which is ironic seeing that outside of Michigan everyone knows the name Grosse Pointe, but no one without tied to the Detroit metro area has even hear of the B's
Bham gets it. Oakland County in general has some architectural abominations that merit trials at The Hague and there’s some gorgeous classic architecture as well. The prevalence of architectural atrocities is far-lower in the Pointes.
GP is located on one of the nicest freshwater lakes in the country for pleasure boating and part of the world’s largest freshwater systems. We can be at our boats in five minutes and on the water in ten. Our parks are essentially private clubs unto themselves, with comparable amenities and private marinas.
Another thing that’s oft overlooked is that GP is legitimately a community. Kids ride their bikes to school, to the corner store, and to the parks. We don’t have a highway running through the middle of town [[which is nice, but is a drawback too) separating us from each other.
GP people, by and large, are more polite. I work in Bloomfield Hills and when I hold the door open for ladies and say please and thank you, people look at me strangely. Birmingham has less of those people, but in BH I am clearly an outlier.
Grosse Pointe has more of a classic sense of style as well. You see far less $300 jeans and Ed Hardy t-shirts and far more polos and pearls, as we say.
Yes, there’s less of a nightlife in GP, but then I can be downtown in ten minutes. I would also argue that the Park strip is coming back and with the increase economic activity in the area soon we’ll be back to the days of weekend evenings looking like mardi gras.
Is there less shopping in GP? Absolutely, go to Sommerset around Christmas time and then tell me you’re not thankful that it is 30 minutes away. The only thing worse than a mall at Christmas is listening to people complain about driving there the rest of the year. You can have your shopping and droves of aspirational undesirables clogging your roadways, thank you very much.
GP is far more tied to downtown than BH and Birmingham, which is tied far more to the faceless glass towers of Troy. Right now, I would be short suburban office space and long downtown office space, if I were looking at the trend. As for the demographic picture of GP [[BH and Birmingham, as well) having masses of old people, just look at our county’s demographics. It was just worse here because for the last eight years young people couldn’t get a job in SE Michigan to save their life. That trend is starting to reverse.
By the way, someone mentioned something about liquid wealth in GP. I will say this, one wealth management office from a bulge bracket bank is the second-largest in the world as measured by assets under management. There’s an astounding amount wealth in SE Michigan in general and GP in particular, it’s just that there wasn’t any wealth generation for the last ten years.
Don’t count out GP, or BH and Birmingham. Though, I would say Birmingham is probably overvalued right now from a market prospective, otherwise I like that town. BH is just ghastly and filled with people of poor breeding and even worse bearing. I wouldn’t live there if you paid me.
First off, the Lodge goes nowhere near Ferndale. But I bet lots of folks in Ferndale wish it did. 'Cause, you see, my point is that I know a lot of youngish people, mostly couples, many with children, who love Detroit but want a house beyond the city line. And I believe that plays into why they choose Ferndale, which, as you point out, is a hop-skip-and-jump from downtown Detroit.
I could be wrong, but I've generally thought that the appeal of the Pointes had to do with exclusivity and disconnectedness from Detroit in general.
I don't understand why the relative appeal would be based on isolation from things. Obviously the Pointes are desirable, but I think most people would agree there's a big difference in property values between the Pointes and the Oakland County wealth centers.
If it isn't the relative isolation from amenities, and then relative proximity to undesirables, then why do the property values lag? Is it just people have the WASP image and perceive it as stuffy?
As a relatively young person who has lived in major cities, I want a place with good restaurants, groceries and services. I don't perceive the Pointes as a place where I'm going to be able to find, say, a selection of imported items in grocers, or contemporary furniture stores, or places to go out in free time.
If you live anywhere along the Woodward corridor from Ferndale up to the Bloomfields, you have the widest array of "stuff" at your fingertips relative to anywhere else in MI, which is why property values are higher.
If you live at Woodward Heights, to get to the Lodge you have to drive down to Woodward, take Woodward over to the Lodge, drive quite some time, get to the left, and, at any busy time of day, spend about 10 minutes in the left merging your way onto Lodge southbound. Is that "convenient"? Hey, if you think it is, fine, Ferndale is the Azores of the Woodward axis.
But all this "strategic" claptrap seems a silly way to call a spade a spade: Ferndale is close to Detroit. And that's my point, really. Ferndale has plenty of residents who are especially engaged with the city but, for various reasons, wanted to live outside it. Trust me on this, they're not in Ferndale to be closer to Somerset. They're on the cusp of the city because they want that proximity to Detroit.
As to the matter of finding value in isolation from things, that relates to a point I was trying to make earlier: I think younger people don't want to be isolated from things. I think older people didn't mind being in their bubble. So I don't think we disagree there.
That said, the way you word things like "proximity to undesirables" is one of the most disgusting things I think I've read on this board. I've been stranded in tough neighborhoods before and found ... nice people ... who helped me ... without question. There are good people and bad people everywhere. When you talk about "undesirables," I know exactly which kind you are. I'm actually very glad you would never live in my neighborhood.
I'm really starting to think that Bham is a paid shill for Oakland County. Heaven forbid you say anything negative about the fancy part of OC.
We get it, you think that Birmingham and the Bloomfields are the greatest thing in the world. That doesn't mean that no other places offer what others are looking for. I have a feeling, given the wealth and relatively frugal ways of the few GPers I know that they aren't interested in having a store that offers 100 varieties of specialty olive oil.
Great question! Let's talk about this.
Say I buy a house on Alter Road, show up at GPP city hall and request a Grosse Pointe parks pass, because hey, I'm pretty close, right? My neighbors across the alley can use the parks, so why can't I? How much difference can there be in a few hundred feet?
Now let's say I have some kids, and I'm interested in enrolling them in Grosse Pointe schools. I've heard they don't accept out-of-district students, and technically my house is zoned for DPS, but I see my neighbors across the alley sending their kids to Grosse Pointe schools, and I live awfully close to them. Is there that much difference in a few hundred feet?
After the smashing success of these two efforts, I really get to thinking. My house is very architecturally similar to my neighbor's house across the alley, and they have very similar amenities. But I just put a new roof on mine, and my neighbor's roof looks a little raggedy. So I decide to do her a good turn, and offer her a straight-up trade: her raggedy-roofed house on Wayburn for my immaculately-roofed house on Alter. Of course, she enthusiastically agrees, because there just isn't that much difference in a few hundred feet. From that point forward, she and I will be fast friends, and we'll meet at My Dad's Bar every Tuesday and she'll regale me with stories of the rapid and efficient police response she gets from Grosse Pointe Park Police whenever she tells them that she's just a few hundred feet outside their jurisdiction.
Translation- I don't have anything specific to rebut, and realize most of this under discussion is true [[or at least perceived to be true) so please stop posting and potentially harming my property values.
If the Pointes have similar shops, restaurants and services, as in Oakland County, and we're all lying, then set us straight. If the Pointes have similar price appreciation as other areas in recent years, and are unaffected by location, then put us in our place and post the data.
BTW, I like the Pointes, and may one day live there. The architectural quality, on average, is the best in Michigan, and if I ever worked downtown I would consider it. If dowtown ever truly revitalizes the Pointes will probably be huge beneficiaries, and will strengthen relative to other areas.
No, that would be you, projecting.
I don't particularly like Birmingham. I don't own in Birmingham, and probably won't buy there, as I consider it overvalued. It works for me, right now. Really the only positives for me are convenient location, walkable, and close to friends/associates. Downtown is annoying and the neighborhoods are being destroyed by crap developments. Taxes are too high, and services aren't better than neighboring communities. The library sucks.
Bloomfield Hills is beautiful around Cranbrook and the lakes, but I like it even less than Birmingham. It's too isolated from stuff once you get to far west, and generally too old and conservative for my tastes. Fantastic library though, and I would consider it if I had real money and wanted to isolate myself.
I do not understand a lot of the statements being thrown around in this thread.
1. Realize they everyone has different tastes and priorities in choosing a community and home to live in; what you may like someone else may not and vice-versa
2. People at different life stages have different priorities in home selection [[Grosse Pointe or Bloomfield may not appeal to young professionals, but they appeal to older families
3. Not everyone works downtown or not everyone works in Oakland County
The argument is silly because both are highly desirable communities.
You people amuse me you argue like the Sneetches with stars upon thars or ours.
http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...9#.UbtYsefVAaC
You've got new money jerks verses old money jerks. Pick your poison.
I'd take GP any day of the week though.
As sumas brought up though, GP truly is the Land of Backhanded compliments. Lots of nice people there but Christ there are also a lot of damned blue-haired snobs. I cross Mack and rob the shit out of them every few weeks just to keep them on their toes.
GP didn't develop a large shopping district because the uber-wealthy could just run down Jefferson to downtown Detroit when they needed to shop. With the decline of downtown, they now have to go further afield [[OC and MC) to do their shopping.
I was outside Santa Cruz, Calif., once, taking a ride up a mountain in an old train to see redwoods. I was talking with my girlfriend about the DIA, and an older couple got my attention, saying they heard me talking about Detroit. They identified themselves as residents of Chicago, formerly of Grosse Pointe. I said I was a west-sider, and probably knew Chicago better than the Grosse Pointes.
We didn't, um, talk much after that exchange. ;)
Bham1982.... sorry but I call BS on that claim.... the 48224 zipcode... the Detroit one you have to drive partway thru to get to get to I-94 has Cadieux, Outer Drive/Whittier, Moross and [[in 48236) Vernier to get to I-94... last time I checked the Detroit part of that area may now be majority African-American... but I would hardly call it Ghetto. And your I-696 claim is also rather spurious... half of it goes thru Macomb County?? The folks in the Pointes have quite a bit of shopping choices along Mack Ave, and farther north, along Harper and Jefferson Ave. It's not the wasteland you make it out to be. Only thing missing is an upscale mall.
Grosse Pointe is older and more urban than Bloomfield Hills.
Grosse Pointe is more GM people while Bloomfield Hills is more Chrysler.
Grosse Pointe doesn't need to be "close to stuff" in Metro Detroit suburbs. Everywhere is still accessible by car if need be.
Grosse Pointe is on Lake St Claire. Bloomfield Hills has hills.
Bloomfield Hills is close to Birmingham and Royal Oak and Pontiac.
Grosse Pointe is close to Downtown.
Neither Grosse Pointe nor Bloomfield Hills have much culture. This isn't New York City, but the Industrial Midwest.
The few blocks that make up the shopping/dinning districts of Birmingham, Royal Oak or Ferndale pale in comparison to the countless similar blocks in real cities that don't abandon and neglect their central city.
Grosse Pointe borders Detroit unlike other upper incomed suburban cities. That is Grosse Pointe's downfall. Grosse Pointe should be more multiracial but the same mindset.
That was a very sweet post. Thank you much. The place next door to our south may or may be up for auction. Really not a good bet. It was actually the original Verheyden funeral parlor. Sadly bad shape. Our next door neighbor on the north has an amazing beautiful home. Our area is is like all Detroit, block by block. We really do have great neighbors. Our old homes fantastic. More than happy to give you a tour of our sweet old home and stroll our neighborhood. We are city folk, not all is bright and pretty but we are happy and like our life.
Most Ferndalers take I-75 when they drive downtown Detroit. One can also go straight down Woodward. As for the Lodge, the easiest way to access it from Ferndale is to take Livernois south, drive through Detroit [[nice neighborhoods) for a couple of miles and then onto the Lodge just south of the University of Detroit.
Actually yes, huge difference. I grew up in EEV, moved back to care for my aging mother. Owned and maintained a home in Islandview but thought family came first. Live here now and yes significant differences between burb and city. Too bad I am not a song writer, I give no excuses for being a city girl but wish I could write that song.
My 200 hundred yards were temporary, try 7 years of home hospice. Sucked but then you "don't want to rag on me" EEV is a great community. Loved it, love my Islandview Village much better! City rules!
Where culture is concerned transit can make a huge difference in accessibility. I worked in downtown SF but lived in Burlingame and used the BART trains to get get to work days; I could stay downtown after work to go to symphony, the opera, museums etc. and still get back to Burlingame late on BART, Caltrain or the SAMTRANS express buses. It's just not possible to get around here without a car and those who are older or somehow impaired need to live where they can fill most of their needs effectively. When I moved back to Michigan the best choice for me was Ann Arbor, but for all its fine points it would still be nice to get to Detroit more easily to attend the DIA and the DSO. A trip last year to a performance at the Chamber Music Society, in the Bloomfield area, was like planning an ascent of K2. At least next week I can hear my beloved SF Symphony at close-by Hill Auditorium. An extensive and well co-ordinated transit system would allow most metropolitan residents, drivers or not, more latitude in living where they liked without sacrificing many of the amenties [[or necessities) of urban life.
The keyword there is "producing." Naturally, as the Auto Industry is now globalized AND leaner, Metro Detroit isn't nearly as wealthy as it was before [[the money that's still here is all old) nor is it producing as much wealth as it was before. Thus, the region's best days are likely behind it.
Having been raised in the two Bs, I, too, prefer the GPs
Eh, I kind of disagree here. I work at a not-Quicken loan company and we've got a pretty strong mortgage business here in the Detroit-Metro region. Beyond that, yeah, we're lacking some of the diversity, but I don't think our "best days are behind us". My generation has gotten tired of Chicago and such, I know more people who've moved back in the past 2-3 years than moved away.
I would argue that Chicago is kind of played out with the kids these days. Detroit is edgier, has more of a 'cachet'.
But I'm not sure what that has to do with the real wealth creators. The McMansions at 30 mile and west out to MI-23 are still going to boom with New Money. I still feel like the GPs have such tremendous staying power though due to the lake, their location close to downtown, and their magnificent architechture.
By comparison the bloomfields just seem like an older Oakland Township.
Some of these posts are pretty damn funny. Personally I'd rather live in in Grosse Pointe. In the Bloomfields, the people are so uppity it's disgusting. I've worked in both areas and the people in Oakland county as a whole are so stuck up it's disgusting.
Well, here's my perspective as gay former Oakland County resident now living on the West Coast [[for the past 20 years). I grew up in Royal Oak, went to college in MI, then left for good. If I were moving back to the Detroit area, GP would be top of the list. When I was growing up Birmingham was upscale but still had a pleasant small town feel. Well, no more. Too busy, too dense. On a recent visit [[my parents still live there) I was dismayed to see all the McMansions that replaced lovely older homes around Quarton Lake. GP has better housing stock, is more walkable, has a lakefront location, and is closer to downtown. I'm not a shopper so the frequent complaint that GP is too far from a good shopping mall doesn't mean anything to me. GP will get more diverse and sooner or later the downtown/midtown crowd is going to find it very appealing--probably as soon as they have kids.
I hope I am not high jacking this thread too much. Our son is getting a divorce and moving from GPP to Midtown.
Me, I am doing snoopy dances. They have no kids so I'll never have to see that bitch again. His soon to be ex is GP, old money.Actually will only miss her Dad who was gracious and mannerly.
Mid town is a good choice for him. He can walk to work or bike. He is involved in many activities and this centralizes most of his interests. He plans to resume classes at WSU. Has a great creative job and am so happy he will be free to pursue his interests.
I expect he will eventually re-marry, he is great with kids and wants them. Mostly likely he will move back to one of the GPs. It is a good place to raise kids.
Actually, Bloomfield Hills uses the Birmingham Baldwin library.
http://www.bloomfieldhillsmi.net/residents/library.php
The fantastic library you're thinking of might be the Bloomfield Township library at the corner of Lone Pine and Telegraph. People confuse us with the Hills all the time, I suppose because we share a post office and most of the kids go to Bloomfield Hills schools [[some go to Birmingham schools).
At least the Grosse Pointes have Lakeshore Drive, some walkable mini-downtowns, and great classic architecture. For the average person, Bloomfield Hills has no interest or value. "Oh wow, a bunch of houses I can't see from the road and like one overpriced restaurant!" That about sums up my feelings about Bloomfield Hills. I guess the millionaires there pay state taxes [[but not a dime for buses) and shop at Great Lakes Crossing, so that's nice.
And how would that explain why Bloomfield has much higher prices than the Pointes? People don't care about Cranbrook, hills, lakefronts, better schools, more diversity, and more central location? And downtown Birmingham is the downtown for Bloomfield and has 10 times as much stuff as the Hill or Village. Except that SMART buses do stop, local taxes are relatively high, and Great Lakes Crossing isn't the closest shopping. You conveniently forgot about Somerset and Birmingham. And there are many restaurants in Bloomfield; probably more than in the Pointes; obviously with Birmingham many times more.
Wow, you took that very personally. I'm just giving you my opinion as an outsider that couldn't afford to live in either locale.
Bottom line is that the Grosse Pointes have there own semi-urban areas - the Bloomfields don't. Yes, a Bloomfield resident could drive to Birmingham, but in that same time a Grosse Pointer would be looking up at the skyscrapers in Detroit.
And Bloomfield has a more central location? To what, Pontiac? Birmingham and Royal Oak really aren't that big of deal. Those cities are for overgrown frat boys and old people that are scared of Detroit.
Your average Bloomfield snob probably prefers Great Lakes Crossing, since the "riffraff" can take the bus to Somerset. And don't try to tell me that the typical main road in the Bloomfields isn't heavily residential. Bloomfield Hills has to encapsulate the least vibrant stretch of Woodward in the metro area.
But OK, OK, you have a couple hills.
Detroit was the economic engine that produced much of the wealth that flowed into the Pointes but the days of the auto barons are long over. With Detroit basically an economic wasteland now, I see the demand for the Pointes decreasing. What was once an enclave of Detroit's wealthy corporate titans has lost it's relevance now that Detroit is bankrupt and unable to sustain itself.
In the decades to come I can see the Pointes becoming similar to areas like Palmer Woods and Sherwood Forest; a snap shot of the area's glory days but with property values far below where they should be.
Well it looks like you're making this into another 1000 post thread...
Rather than just leave it at "some prefer GP, while others prefer Bham/BH" for different reasons... you go on preaching to the choir about why you're right and others are not...
Why not just say "different strokes for different folks".... and leave it at that.... :eek:
Again this doesn't have to be an either/or discussion...
Apples and oranges comparsions don't help to make ones point.
Also, Bham/Bloomfield is highly ideal for one who works in Auburn Hills or Southfield so do not discount its location just simply because GP is closer to downtown Detroit.
Your assessment is quite correct. The elite areas of any city reflect where that city stands in the economy of the times. Detroit's decline is mirrored in GP's lowered profile among the country's most affluent communities. Lakeshore was once lined with estates, not subsivisions, when Detroit was a dominant force in the nation's economy, but now seems a shadow of its former self - the saving grace being some gems on the sidestreets. That Fifth Avenue and London's West End remain atop the world's most coveted residential districts is a testament to their respective cities' continued renewal and relevance to changing times. GP's best hope is a strong regional response to the opportunities of our own times.
I have lived in GP for over 45 years and have been hearing this BULLSHIT since I moved here and yet to quote Lowell GP is like old man river its keeps moving on. I am always bewildered that 30 ish homes that were razed between the 1950's and 1980's are considered the end of GP. There are still 1000's of homes designed by the greatest concentration of architectural talent in Metro Detroit[[neither Birmingham or Bloomfield Hills comes close), but it seems that because those 30 homes were torn down [[most before many on here were born) that GP is doomed. Its funny its been 30 plus years since the last of them were razed and GP is still standing. In the early 1980's and just recently the area took a hit but both times as the economy rebounded so did GP. Right now the the realtors in GP are crying due to the lack of homes to sell. GP has always been a bargain when compared to similar areas around the country.
Unfortunately everyone's view of GP is from Lakeshore. For GP residents Lakeshore is the last street we would live on.
Last all those 1000's of homes are in very good to exceptional condition-"a testament to the residents of GP's continued renewal and relevance to changing times."
This has become an unpleasant place to post. One did not expect such a vociferous response for an earnestly posted opinion. Time to check out, I suppose.