Printable View
Of course, the Freep is skimpy on details...and...information.
http://www.freep.com/article/2010090...SUV-in-Detroit
Foolish? What are his ideas?
I guess my question is: Is he referring to large-scale urban farms that could displace residents, or the stuff we have going on already? If he is referring to both, my question is, is he that stupid?
What the hell else are we supposed to be doing here, revren'? Just sitting here with our thumbs up our asses waiting for auto jobs to magically reappear?
Ecnomically, urban farms are NOT going to revive Detroit. Just look at all of the large [[hundreds of acres) farms outstate and throughout the country that are going belly up. And many of these have been in the same family for several generations.
How does anybody think that farms in the middle of the ghetto, and possibly on contaminated land, will be economically viable to sustain a single family let alone revive the city?
This is probably the only thing that The Rev-er-and Jacksonnn has said that makes sense.
There is no magic bullet that is going to save Detroit.
However, Detroiters growing their own food, selling it to fellow Detroiters who often have little access to healthy food, and making a little profit is NOT "foolish".
Even if he was referring to a venture similar to Hantz, he is being irresponsible and minimalizing the efforts of the small scale urban farmers and garderners in Detroit who do the city a great service.
Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
Jackson is an ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
Perhaps. But I grow weary of the Pollyanna types who think that growing carrots in the ghetto will do for the city what the auto industry did a hundred years ago.
DC4, you're way wrong on this one. You're thinking the old fashion way, the way that got us to believe that a single industry would employ us forever and that they'd be here as long as time.
Detroit, and in turn the rest of industrial America, has to think less about forever and more about small and fast. Nimble. Elastic.
The idea that cars would be the Golden Ticket has turned to ashes in our mouths because we seriously thought someone was going to do something massive with the Packard, Kelsey-Hayes, Studebacker and Fisher-21 plants. We made it difficult if not impossible to be nimble with those properties, to think smaller and not forever.
There is no happy ever after, no magic manufacturing god who is going to solve our problems. Not big government, not big industry. and even if the could they wouldn't be here forever.
Food will. Especially in the short term when so many are hungry.
I just say, why bother he comment to stir up controversy. I don't know why people who have the power to do good would choose to criticize other people's effort to do something positive.
You completely misunderstand my point. Anyone who thinks that so called "urban farming" is going to revive this city economically is dillusional. Farming is not an economic engine in this country except for the big corporate farms that concentrate many thousands of acres and have vast capital to invest. Such capital does not exist in Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
Urban gardening/farming could be just one aspect of a diversified local economy. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
True. But don't discount manufacturing. When it comes right down to it that is where Detroit's strength lies. A few hipsters growing carrots in the [[possibly toxic contaminated) soil will not bring the City of Detroit back to greatness.
To build on that, I thought this whole time the urban farming idea was just proactive Detroit residents making a difference in their communities. At least, that's how community gardens and farm plots have been created thus far. No one should expect this to become an economic engine or even a solution to many of Detroit's problems. Instead it's a way of improving the appearance of neighborhoods, providing an educational experience for Detroiters as well as a healthy hobby. Why Jackson has something against this particularly, I'm not sure.
I think it's one of the best ideas to come out of Detroit since the Mustang.
When I was a child during WW II, "victory gardens" were very popular. The town and college set aside city land or campus land and permitted folks to stake it off and "farm" it. My mother acquired the rights to about 2 acres and farmed it diligently. All we kids were required to help. As a 6-8 year old I carried buckets of water for 5 blocks, as there was no way to irrigate the land except to haul water in. [[I learned to really pray - for rain -- as a very young kid.) We also had to hoe, weed, and pick the vegetables.
Our large family lived on home grown vegetables; during the war everything was rationed and we were able to buy only about 2 pounds of meat a week, and that's because we had a large family. We grew so much food we gave quite a bit of it away, to older folks in the neighborhood who couldn't have their own gardens. We were never hungry and our diet was super healthy.
It was a rewarding, character building experience. I didn't think so at the time but I soon realized how beneficial it was was for me, our family, and the town.
I hope for Detroit's sake the urban farm movement really takes off. "Ho[[e) in Detroit might take on a whole new meaning.
They are not "hipsters" and they are not growing in "Possibly toxic contaminated soil". These statements just point out that you have no idea about urban farming. If you would like to get a clue, stop by one of the many large urban gardens around.Quote:
Originally Posted by DC48080
We make our own compost. We plant in raised beds [[ for the most part ). Those who do grow in the "native" soil generally have it tested before they plant one seed.
Those who believe in urban farming do so not because it will replace manufacturing or because it will "bring the City of Detroit back to greatness" but so that it will feed hungry people, teach people how to grow food for their families so that they are less dependent on high priced urban grocery stores, get people back to a sense of community sustenance, and teach them to eat healthier food.
I hope that Rev. Jackson was talking about "Hantz-type" farming and not the small urban farms that are helping improve our city by improving the lives of its citizens. We are not out to find something to replace manufacturing....just something to feed our bodies and souls.
Check out this website and blog...maybe it will give you a little education:
www.georgiastreetcc.com
http://georgiastreetgarden.blogspot.com/
Well I don't mean any dig at what you do but [[as I said on a previous post) I am weary of the fools that think farming is the next big thing for Detroit.
Feeding the poor is all fine and well but farming alone will not revive the city.
Blueidone, you guys are doing wonderful work. Thank you. Georgia Street is a shining example of what can be done. All over the city, people are quietly growing food and clearing out neighborhoods. Is it the final answer? Nobody ever said it was, but it sure is a lovely positive development.
I don't think urban farms are necessarily supposed to turn a profit. It's more about bringing the community together and providing healthy fresh food for people.
In St. Louis, the St. Patrick's Center has an urban farm and they have a program to teach their patients [[mostly drug addicts and homeless, sometimes mentally ill people) how to do jobs related to farming. According to their site, 45% of their graduates get jobs. Not a great number, but it's good considering what these men were doing before. They also give grants that provide money so that schools can start their own farms and have classes involving agriculture. There are also some neighborhood farms that the residents grow themselves. Some of the produce goes to the local farmers markets.
Obviously St. Louis and Detroit are not the same. I also know that no city is saved by urban farming, but it can be a very good thing, especially if it's on land that currently has no other use. With the green movement going on there may be some federal dollars for it, although most of the stimulus money has gone out. Urban farming is not going to solve all of Detroit's problem. It should not necessarily be top priority. But urban farms can be used to do great things. Lots of cities do small scale urban farming and most people seem fine with it.
Interesting quote from the article
Quote:
Jackson said he dislikes Mayor Dave Bing’s plan to plow over vacant homes and create urban farms because it will displace residents.
So is he complaining about urban farms or rightsizing?
Guys, DC48080 has backtracked from his initial statement. There probably are people out there overblowing the benefits of urban farming, but it's also an idea for putting some of that apparently undesirable/low-value land to some kind of use in a big old vacuum of ideas.
Quote:
From the article linked to above
“We have to put the focus on what we need,” Jackson told the Detroit City Council during a 30-minute appearance, comparing the city to a war zone not unlike Iraq. “There needs to be security, stability and reconstruction. Everything that has been done in Baghdad could be done here.”
Wait, so this is friggin' Baghdad, but we can't inconvenience, if it came to it, a couple hundred people for sentimentality's sake? We have had this debate, and I just overstated my position, but not if Detroit=Baghdad. If he wants to clear-hold-build, fine, I do too - have him subsidize or even just organize security patrols in downtown.
That is either brilliant reporting, ridiculous reporting, or biased reporting.Quote:
From the article linked to above
Jackson said he dislikes Mayor Dave Bing’s plan to plow over vacant homes and create urban farms because it will displace residents.
Why do people even listen to Jesse Jackson? Why do people give him power? How many years is he going to coast on his "rep"? Ugh!
Personally I think Jesse Jackson has lost a lot of his credibility as any sort of urban activist. For whatever reason he just seems to fail to connect with people now. Years ago I though Al Sharpton was the in-your-face preacher that just showed up for face time during tragedies, but at least he's showing up and offering some sense of comfort to the ones affected. Jesse Jackson just doesn't hav that sort of moxie any more.
His comments on what this community wants to do for its own good is prime example of how out of touch he is. I've seen many of these urban gardens spring up all around town. No one has laid claim to how Detroit is suddenly going to turn into the heartland of America; it's just good hard working honest folks doing something good for themselves in a very difficult economic downturn. It gets neighbors out. It keeps the areas looking respectable. And one of the side effects of this urban farming that I think we Detroiters have been lacking for a good while, is a sense of pride in our own communities.
Jesse Jackson didn't have to say anything about it at all. He's lost a fair amount of the respect I once had for the guy with statements like this.
I will ignore the Rev Jacksons remarks, Yet as he has spoken so will I.Urban farming/Gardenening in my opinion is a good thing for the city. What looks better, tires laying over a vacent lot or food growing on that lot?.As for large scale farming you need a large amount of land. It may be good for the city to rightsize, yet I can remember what happened 30 years ago with Poletown.No easy answers.
I would be far more concerned over the long-term viability of urban gardening and livestock keeping if the good Reverend would've understood it all and jumped on our merry bandwagon.
Likely that if it weren't for him, MLK might've had a better room without that 'view'. Jesse needs to go away. The community is never served when he shows on the scene.
Um....just do a soil and air quality test, theeeeeeeen ask the question again about feeding people that food. There is a garden along jefferson [[the one with the crucified scarecrow with "MLK" written on it and a bullet hole drawn on its forehead) that is right next to a half demolished apartment building.
You gonna eat that stuff >>>?
It seems like the article is conflating two or three different things. They put the actual sentiment at the end of the article. [[I hate when they do this.)Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
"Jackson said he dislikes Mayor Dave Bing’s plan to plow over vacant homes and create urban farms because it will displace residents."
This really doesn't make sense. You don't displace residents by plowing over vacant homes. And, underneath it all, I sense the sentiment that once these homes are plowed over, the "farm" may last a year or two before it's sold to big developers. That's a real concern worth red-flagging.
Terrible article. Good discussion here.
Don't you love how liberals tell people what they should or shouldn't do for a living and how to live their lives?
Maybe Jesse would rather have them sue the USDA for reparations, like the millions the Sherrod's received.
http://www.nlpc.org/stories/2010/08/...-line-millions
As it turns out, Ms. Sherrod has had plenty of luck with the legal system. Sherrod and her husband, Charles, run a nonprofit advocacy group called Rural Development Leadership Network. That organization last year happened to be awarded about $12.5 million in the Pigford case, a sum representing $8.25 million for the loss of land plus $4.25 million for the loss of income. That didn't include $300,000 to the Sherrods [[$150,000 for each spouse) for "pain and suffering." Nor didit include an unspecified sum for "debt forgiveness." Significantly, this settlement, the largest of any Pigford plaintiff, was announced only days before her USDA appointment of July 25, 2009
Nice catch. Vacant homes in my book generally mean no residents- as in empty, a shell, no occupants, lack of human habitation. So there really is no displacement of people. From what I gather Bing wants to do is consolidate the City to keep city services such as the police & fire departments from running out to the areas where there's only a few scant residents on a huge plot of land. It's a waste of the city's resources. We just don't have the population density we once had in this land area [[which is quite huge compared to other big cities). The city itself has already shrunk with its residents. Why not pool what remaining resources we have now to a tighter area to better serve what's still viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
And the land that is gained from the lack of people living there shouldn't be left to go fallow. Why not use it as farm land? When and if Detroit ever gets back on its feet again and we need that land, why shouldn't we sell it off to viable developers [[not squatters waiting to cash in)? While it's always great to have companies and manufacturers building and keeping up an area with viable businesses, it's just not happening here yet. There are no thriving neighborhoods in those areas. We've just got too much land! I think that's the point where Jesse Jackson is missing the point.
Well, I'm opposed to the so-called "right-sizing" plan. But just because I'm opposed to the plan doesn't mean I'm opposed to urban agriculture.Quote:
Originally Posted by smogboy
In fact, I'm a big fan of urban agriculture, whether it be small-scale home gardening, community gardens like Georgia Street or some of the more fanciful plans.
But we are not going to realize much savings by cordoning off areas for farming. In fact, I believe it is likely a tool from the Same-Old-Stuff crowd to evict actual people from viable homes and then flip properties -- at great profit -- to big developers.
And the fact that everybody is conflating urban ag and "right-sizing" not only confuses the matter, it shows that the SOS crowd believes it has found a feel-good way to sell the same old intrusive practices of big players: Eminent domain, slum clearance, and urban renewal [[Negro removal).
The other part that bothers me is what the hell does Jackson know about Detroit? Why is he some kind of Detroit expert now? Why the hell should anyone here listen to him? What does he know about our struggles and problems anyway?
I'm also questioning his motives. Is he just being inflammatory to get attention? Because obviously it has worked. He has been in the dustbin of history for a while now - irrelevant, useless, pointless, irritating - and surely he can feel it. So maybe he is being controvertial simply to stay in the news. Either that, or he is just a goddamn stupid ass.
If we look at the enormous economic growth [[despite the accompanying problems) that came out of the Industrial Revolution, it might be easier to understand Jackson's message. It's not unreasonable to suppose that reverting from manufacturing back to an agrarian economy would have the opposite economic effect in the long term.
For the short term however, urban farming [[gardening, whatever) is an excellent use of otherwise useless land. Best of all, an urban farm is much easier to convert back to manufacturing in the future than the other way around. It's not as if planting a garden commits that land to stay a garden forever. I don't think anyone intends urban gardening as a permanent solution to Detroit's problems.
It's not an either/or decision. Even Henry Ford believed it was necessary to keep "one foot in industry, one foot in the soil".
Wow lilpup - an excellent quotation and one that speaks so well to this discussion!
Even today, expansive fields owned by Ford in Dearborn are planted with sunflowers. There is a meaning in all that!
With up to half of Detroiters out of work or not getting enough work, farming could be a way for individuals or groups to make money. It may not be enough to support one persons income in many cases, but it could supliment it. Produce grown in Detroit could be sold at the hundreds of corner stores and liquor stores that dot the city, where now most only sell junk food. Not to mention that urban farming uses empty lots for a productive use, beautifying the neighborhood while generating healthy food and economic activity if that food is then sold. It also can foster a change in attitute - a renewed sense of community and sense that we can take control over our own lives and communities, that we don't have to be dependant on others to make our world better.
But I do not think it is a silver bullet. Far from it. The potential of the farming itself is limited but it could spark bigger projects, such as co-op grocery stores, or into other industries such as wind turbine manufacturing. The potential for cooperative and participatory projects is far greater than one garden or enterprise.
That is why the most important thing about the gardens is the participation and the act of taking things into our own hands, that we have it within ourselves to run our own lives, that we don't need to rely on big corporations anymore, or on greedy landlords or corrupt politicians, or for that matter on corporations, landlords or politicians at all. That we can live and self-manage our own lives and economy and society.
It is a radical idea, and infectiously dangerous to power elites. We will see what side Jessie Jackson chooses- the 'savage,' 'ruthless majority' with so much untapped, ignored potential or those who try and keep democracy to the 'opulent minority'. Our founding fathers made this very same choice and they did not choose the people, and now we live in a corporatist plutocracy with some civil liberties. But after all, Jacksons own organization is structured like a corporation and he benifits from the status-quo of capitalism and economic exploitation and inequity.
people need to think outside the box for creative uses of available land. City schools should have plots of land to work on with students for credit-- push curriculums in schools stressing agriculture, soil science, botany, forestry, urban planning, etc. Why not have fruit & vegetable farms, why not have forest preserves, why not have some bikes-only paths? Unfortunately, once the more cynical, jaded, and uneducated sorts in local leadership/activism get introduced to ideas like urban farming, shutting down depopulated neighborhoods, and "re-greening" in general, the tendency is to start accusations of suburban land-grab, or "They want to turn Detroit into a Plantation" which adds a totally unnecessary racialized spin to redevelopment efforts. Of course, if one is to look at this through the lens of African-American history, agrarian-based skill sets were common to our ancestors but were generationally lost as the industrialization boom manifested. Maybe this needs to be revisited.
Fuck him and the car he rode in on [[oops that was stolen).
The question should be what has Jackson ever done for anybody? For that matter what has he done where he didn't benefit himself?
For a person who claims to be the black man's saviour [[and acts like it). He sure didn't want to fess up to his illegittmate child. Fucking parasite who offers nothing to anybody.
I could care less about his views on urban farming [[better than weeds and garbage). I just can't stand the prick.
Well. What a great bunch of posts! I am really happy people are farming the land in Detroit.
Manufacturing is never coming back to the US. Very little is made here any more. Steel mills are gone, most clothing manufacturing is gone and quite a bit of produce comes from China. Scary.
Three cheers for the urban farmers!
Jackson is an idiot. He's the last person who needs to give advice to my city. Not unless he wants to donate a few million to some Detroit cause. Jackson is nothing but a race bater. Remember this is the guy who said Obama needs his balls cut off when he didn't know the microphone was on.
This is essentialy the problem with our economy. Essentialy the reason why Detroit is in ruins. We were a city dependant on manufacturing and now nothing is manufactured in the US anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swimmaven
But that doesn't mean we can have manufacturing. Shit is still produced... Just not within our borders. We dont live in a post-industrial society at all. More shit is manufactured in the world today than in any other moment in human history!
And we will continue to need stuff. Like cloths. Why can't they be made here rather than in sweat shops? The answer is simple -- more profits made when you pay a worker 1/100th the wage of a worker here in the states. But when the cloths finally make it to market the price is still the same as US made cloths, if not more!!! So its essentiall all about profits.
I think we NEED manufacturing. It has to come back. But not via corporations... they obviously aren't interested. Instead, a new form of economic organization is neccesary- a cooperative and participatory one. An economy from the bottom up. The farms are just the start. Jackson is just stuck in the old days of big corporations being our savior when in reality they are our downfall. The city always favors big corps at the expense of small business, just read the history. Our small business economy is all but totally collapsed even though most jobs are created via small businesses. It is easy to see why corporations are not the answer to our economic problems.
Good post, CC.
While I wish manufacturing would come back, it won't. This country needs to specialize in some other area, or multiple other areas. Even industries on the rise [[such as the financial industry and real estate were) are not impervious to decline. However, as a nation and in individual regions, the sources of income need to be pretty diversified. Medicine seems to be a pretty popular industry now as well as communications. Some food and beverage companies are still pretty big. There has to be a variety of industries, though, and manufacturing itself probably won't be coming back.
Not that urban farms will save a city either. I don't think they hurt it, though. If a neighborhood decides to take on a project like that, then that is wonderful. It's not the answer to urban blight and urban problems. I'm not sure anybody is entirely sure what the answer to that is, though.
I always get a chuckle out of nitwits that label a cause "liberal" or "neocon".... it's as though one side or the other is pure evil [[in my opinion, sometimes they both are!!). :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by gdogslim
Last time I checked it WASN'T the liberals who want to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies.... nor what scientific text books have to be used by schools... nor what form of evolution to teach... nor forcing them to have prayers in school.
It's time both ends of the spectrum stop telling the large majority in the middle what to do...
Allowing [[or not allowing) urban farming is a matter of public policy, and it is completely appropriate to question its benefits against its costs. If you can't make that case, it's all an exercise in passion and branding. And that case should include:
1. A discussion of what additional wealth it will bring into the city.
2. A study of what regulatory problems it will involve [[environmental, property law, tax).
3. An analysis of the impact of perceived vested rights in growing on future development.
4. An inventory of marketable skills such a program would create.
5. An inquiry into the message it sends capital markets about the Detroit workforce.
Let's address those points.
Of course urban farming is not going to be the replacement for all the industry that Detroit has lost, and that is really not the reason for advocating for it. Detroit is a food desert when it comes to getting decent food that is not heavily processed and containing tons of artificial ingredients. Sure there is Eastern Market on the weekend but that does nothing for people the rest of the week, not to mention that not everyone can easily access the market due to the lack of reliable public transit that could get them there and back home. Urban farming is a way to provide the local communities around a farm site with produce and even some meat options when traditionally all they could access is a local convenience store or god forbid a liquor store. In Milwaukee a man named Will Allen started an organization called growing power [[http://www.growingpower.org/), which worked to end the problem they had with a lack of decent food in the area. He started with just growing veggies but then branched out into aquaculture and raises fish as well. Not only has he helped to provide food for people in the local area but he also gives them jobs.
One argument against urban farming here in Detroit is that the soil is too polluted and who would want to eat anything grown there. Well yes there are areas where there is soil pollution and in those areas the soil needs to be cleaned of those pollutants first. Suggesting that we should just have industry come back would only further damage the local environment and by basing our economy on a single industry we again risk having economic melt down when said industry takes a hit.
Another argument for urban farming is that when you grow your own food or at least know the place where it is coming from you can know that there is quality behind it, and it is better for the environment not just locally but globally as well. While we all might enjoy having grapes in the middle of winter, it is kind of hard to argue that it really makes sense to ship them all the way from Chile and expending all those resources to do that just for a snack. Farming here in Detroit does not have to be a warm weather activity either. Greenhouses can be built to allow us to grow year round and while we may not be able to have those grapes growing there, we still will get healthy food.
An urban farm is not going to provide jobs for everyone here in Detroit and there is no reason that it should either. There is an unfortunate stigma against working on a farm that most urban dwellers have that makes them feel like they have sort of downgraded their way of life and that farm workers are supposed to be like those migrants who typically do it. I myself have a decent sized rooftop garden right in the heart of downtown Detroit and I can personally say that I get a ton of satisfaction from working in the garden and if I could make a living at doing it I would work in a garden or farm year round. A small urban farm might provide a few jobs for people in the local area around that farm, but for most who work on it it would be supplemental income and also they would get a share of what they grow.
I would not advocate for the city to be covered in farms because honestly the idea of doing that is ludicrous at best. The ideal situation is for a patchwork for seasonal community farms and year round greenhouses and aquaculture farms to be built around the city so that the whole area could benefit and not just a few select areas. The final benefit we would all have is that when a group of people get together to created their own urban garden or farm it helps to strengthen the local community. People who might have never known one another when they were next door neighbors might find common ground together and in turn those communities could band together and make the city a better place. The real problem that Detroit faces is not the crime, the unemployment, the pollution, but the lack of community. People are not willing to stand up to fight for their city and make it a better place. Detroit suffers from a severe case of apathy and its citizens are all to content to watch their neighborhoods crumble around them so long as they can scrape by for another day. If you don't believe me go and look around at all the neighborhoods around this city where people are willing to live next to burned out buildings, crack houses, and just general filth. I personally cannot comprehend why anyone would sit back and allow that to happen in their own neighborhood let alone next to their own home. Some may say it is because they are too poor to pay for demolition, well I say go pick up an axe, pick up a hammer, and tear it down yourself [[so long as you do it safely). All our vacant homes and businesses around the city are rapidly decaying and are like a festering tumor that will just continue to eat away at the city until there is nothing left but a few people either living in a roach and rat infested hovel or those who stood up and said not in my community.
Finally I want to address Mr. Jackson. He was at one time a leader in the civil rights movement and I don't think many could argue that he did not help make the country a better place through his work. But with that being said I think his time is long since past. He and others like Rev. Al Sharpton have become more of a detriment to their cause then helping anyone but themselves. When an incident involving african americans occurs they will of course fly into the city and cause a big fuss and get in the media and rant and rave about how their people are being misstreated but they never stick around to see anything gets done to stop that misstreatement from happening again. They are all in it for the attention, the power, and yes the money. Jesse Jackson also made news when he was here because his Cadillac Escalade was stolen. The news should have been asking the question of why was he driving such an expensive vehicle when the people he is advocating for are not even able to afford a car. If he really cares about the community he should take a lesson from the scriptures [[since he is supposed to be a reverand afterall) and use his wealth to benefit others rather than himself. He and others should instead of flying in and making a problem worse should come and live in those communities and use their influence and power to make those places better. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen and these so called leaders of the community will continue to use the downtrodden to empower themselves and act like a lampray sucking the life out of our sickened communities.
Jackson is out of touch he does not live anywhere near Detroit. He should spend his time more wisely by enrolling in a Speech Class. Nobody wants to listen to his long winded mumbling.
The article says that Jackson was opposed to Bing's plan to turn lots in Detroit into urban farms because it would displace residents. His main theme was about green energy
"There needs to be security, stability and reconstruction. Everything that has been done in Baghdad could be done here.”
Who can argue with security, stability and reconstruction? And he is probably better prepared to talk about the security and stability in subsistence farming than most posters here. Someone is going to have to do a lot of soil testing to see how much of the city can even be used for human or stock foodstuffs.