Invest Billions of $$$$ into DWSD

Everyone seems so thrilled that Billionaires are investing in Detroit Land
- why is no one pushing for massive improvement in water ?

People do realize it gets sucked up near Belle Isle for us to drink ?
That swirly stuff shown below isn't "clean" - it's like that gunk on green fish tank walls.
Lots and lots of stuff simply is NOT checked for as it comes to your tap.

Approximately 15,000 new chemicals and biological sequences are registered every day and no sequence of "Filtering" methods can catch everything that exists. An increasingly diverse array of organic and inorganic chemicals are simply slipping thru into the water supply .

Perhaps Detroit is putting the Cart before the Horse;
with a major priority put on the back burner ,
in an endless kick the can on down the road for tomorrow.


http://www.globalchange.gov/sites/gl...opped-midi.jpg

http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images...014215_lrg.jpg

What is your source? What are the details?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

Everyone seems so thrilled that Billionaires are investing in Detroit Land
- why is no one pushing for massive improvement in water ?

People do realize it gets sucked up near Belle Isle for us to drink ?
That swirly stuff shown below isn't "clean" - it's like that gunk on green fish tank walls.
Lots and lots of stuff simply is NOT checked for as it comes to your tap.

Approximately 15,000 new chemicals and biological sequences are registered every day and no sequence of "Filtering" methods can catch everything that exists. An increasingly diverse array of organic and inorganic chemicals are simply slipping thru into the water supply .

Perhaps Detroit is putting the Cart before the Horse;
with a major priority put on the back burner ,
in an endless kick the can on down the road for tomorrow.


http://www.globalchange.gov/sites/gl...opped-midi.jpg

http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images...014215_lrg.jpg

---

Detroit has some of the highest quality and most affordable water in the country.

Detroit water has always seemed like some of the best in the world to me. The Detroit river may not be the fountain of youth, but compared with 99% of the world, it nearly is.

I know this is entirely anecdotal but I'm originally from the "beautiful" and "clean" West side of the state and I can tell you when I moved over here, the quality of DWSD water really impressed me... far better than anywhere else I've been.

Willi, You're like a fish out of water with this thread. You have no idea what you're talking about.

if ive learned anything willi's opinion and perspective trumps actual facts. the clean water may suffer from ghetto-itis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jason

Detroit has some of the highest quality and most affordable water in the country.

---

It tastes bad, though. It's much better tasting that in the West/Southwest or Florida, but is generally not pleasant to taste, and seems heavily chlorinated. LA, Miami and Phoenix area are the worst.

I don't think Detroit water is really a positive outlier compared to other water systems in the Eastern U.S. The best water I've tasted in Michigan is in West Michigan, and nationally probably the NYC area [[whose watershed is so heavily protected the water is only very lightly treated).

Most Detroit water comes from an intake in Lake Huron just north of Port Huron.

Willi, most of the water comes from Fort Gratiot on Lake Huron, the Belle Isle inlet is a secondary source.
http://www.dwsd.org/pages_n/map_water_supply.html

So let's just fuck it up for everyone downstream, eh ?
Sorry I didn't post a pic of the gunk from the intake up near Port Huron.

You folks might want to read a bit more about how screwed up the water is all around and thru the St Clair River , into Detroit and Windsor , on thru to Toledo before you post again.

There are hundreds of mostly unregulated compounds detected in Great Lakes waters today.

For Willi... words alone do not suffice...

Anecdotal Evidence....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence



For Bham1982... you must really like hard water then... :eek:

Hard Versus Soft Water in the USA...

http://www.ecowatertexas.com/wp-cont...er-map-usa.jpg

I agree that it is a shame what is ending up in our Great Lakes and by extension our bodies. I take solace in that the ongoing damage is decreasing and regulations and restrictions are improving the situation. When I arrived in Detroit in the sixties it was out of control and tributaries like the Rouge and Cuyahoga were so polluted they were catching fire.

That said I have paid for delivery of spring water from a rural high watershed deep well for 25 years now.

It is STILL out of control - that's why DWSD got Sue F. McCormick

I guess it's all about preserving architecture while the fresh water Great Lakes go to hell

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...wage/17907335/

Basically it happens EVERY time it rains hard in Detroit, to one degree or another.

http://www.greatlakes.org/Document.Doc?id=1091

Let's add some nuclear waste while we're at it since the water is pristine
http://www.mintpressnews.com/great-l...cility/193028/

DWSD canceled two major tunnel contracts -- the Upper Rouge Tunnel and the Detroit River Outfall [[DRO) Contract No. 2 -- worth over $600 million on grounds that they were too costly.
Basically there was NO revenue or money to FIX a decades old problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lowell

I agree that it is a shame what is ending up in our Great Lakes and by extension our bodies. I take solace in that the ongoing damage is decreasing and regulations and restrictions are improving the situation. When I arrived in Detroit in the sixties it was out of control and tributaries like the Rouge and Cuyahoga were so polluted they were catching fire.

That said I have paid for delivery of spring water from a rural high watershed deep well for 25 years now.

---

Glad to see a positive note here. Our society is improving each and every day. Not in each and every step, mind you. We do take giant steps sideways and backwards. Overall, we're doing much better -- thank you.

Willi's right that we should be paying attention to our water. But what he misses is that we ARE. I'll bet if you measured known carcinogens being dumped into the St. Clair River from Sarnia's impressive oil refineries over the last 50 years, you'd see a most impressive improvement. We enjoy great water. Let's keep up the good work -- but not be obsessive compulsive.

Water takes a back seat to Profit and Industrial Expansion every time.
It is very rarely at the forefront of anyones motives.

We take it for granted, it's wayyyy tooo cheap to be important, we simply don't think about it
If water cost each of us $500 a month, we would change our tune in a hurry.

The Detroit Edison Monroe Power Plant in Monroe emitted the most mercury pollution of any power plant in Michigan in 2010, releasing 660 pounds. This amount is significant. One small drop of mercury is enough to make the fish in a 25-acre lake unsafe to eat.

Three of the top 100 most polluting power plants for mercury emissions
- in the country - are located in Michigan.
• Among all states nationwide, Michigan ranked tenth in terms of the total amount of airborne mercury pollution released by power plants – 2,253 pounds.

http://www.nrdc.org/air/mercury-in-the-great-lakes.asp

http://www.freep.com/article/20111012/NEWS06/111011074/Graphic-Great-Lakes-fish-mercury-levels

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

Water takes a back seat to Profit and Industrial Expansion every time.
It is very rarely at the forefront of anyones motives.

We take it for granted, it's wayyyy tooo cheap to be important, we simply don't think about it
If water cost each of us $500 a month, we would change our tune in a hurry.

The Detroit Edison Monroe Power Plant in Monroe emitted the most mercury pollution of any power plant in Michigan in 2010, releasing 660 pounds. This amount is significant. One small drop of mercury is enough to make the fish in a 25-acre lake unsafe to eat.

Three of the top 100 most polluting power plants for mercury emissions
- in the country - are located in Michigan.
• Among all states nationwide, Michigan ranked tenth in terms of the total amount of airborne mercury pollution released by power plants – 2,253 pounds.

http://www.nrdc.org/air/mercury-in-the-great-lakes.asp

http://www.freep.com/article/20111012/NEWS06/111011074/Graphic-Great-Lakes-fish-mercury-levels

---

The story you tell is compelling. But are we heading in the right direction?

The answer looks a lot like YES to me. We are improving things constantly. The coal plants are likely to be replaced with natural gas or nuclear -- or will have the next generation of scrubbers. One way or the other things are getting better.

Your stats say Michigan has 3 of the worst 100 power plants. So since we're one of 50 states, you'd expect at least 2. And given that Michigan is a major coal-burning state, I'm surprised there are only 3!

"Water takes a back seat to Profit and Industrial Expansion every time."?????

Are you serious? How can you ignore the strides since the 70s and 80s? We've done so much -- with the money that profit and industrial expansion has granted us -- and made a much better world. And you think water quality is 'taking a back seat'? You on crack? Where are our burning rivers? Where's that giant Lake between Toledo and Buffalo that is dead.

Pupulation/Land Use changes have changed the direction of the Upper Rouge Tunnel. Instead of building an expensive tunnel that will tear apart parks they have decided to green up the neighborhoods with tree plantings, bioswales, etc so the water never gets into the sewers in the first place.
http://www.dwsd.org/downloads_n/abou...08-01-2014.pdf

The topic of Contaminants in Drinking Water is not exactly hidden in journals/research;
scientists have know about it for quite a while - there isn't any MONEY to clean it up.

Last year, a group of researchers detected drugs in the Great Lakes at levels high enough to be "of environmental concern," according to a study that found traces of acetaminophen, codeine, antibiotics, hormones, steroids, and anti-epileptic compounds, and dozens of other chemicals.


Also last year, another group concluded that they’d found evidence of a "global environmental issue" after discovering widespread neuro-active compounds, including antidepressants, anti-seizure compounds, and mood stabilizers, in 24 Minnesota rivers.


In February, Environment Canada officials told a Senate committee hearing that more than 165 individual pharmaceuticals and personal care products have been identified in water samples, as of this year.


The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, World Health Organization, and European Union Council together currently regulate more than 120 drinking water contaminants.
But even regulated chemicals carry some uncertainty because new information requires questioning and possibly revising limits.
Emerging chemical contaminants also generate concern because little to nothing is known about their potential health effects, much less the levels at which those would occur.
Likewise, contaminant mixtures may pose greater threats than their individual components.

Feel free to think its all okay, put on the blinders, keep walking to Happy Land

There are hundreds of articles about the Bush Administration regarding UN-Clean Water
http://www.freshwater.net/cleanwateractchanges.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

...Feel free to think its all okay, put on the blinders, keep walking to Happy Land...

---

You should think about joining Happy Land. Its quite nice here -- with ever-increasing life expectancy -- better water -- more recycling -- and more renewable energy.

Keep working to make things better. You can still do that from Happy Land too.

Be Happy.

I prefer stark reality, that way I see the sledgehammer coming at my skull with both eyes.
Honestly don't care much about Pistons, Red Wings, Tigers or the stadiums - I'm not there.
Couldn't give a diddly poo about the Casinos [[either side of the border) - I don't gamble.
I do, drink the water from my kitchen sink, take showers and recreate on the Great Lakes

• Michigan has $11.8 billion need in drinking water infrastructure in next 20 years.
• Michigan has $3.7 billion need in wastewater infrastructure in next 20 years.
• I would rather see serious investment on those 2 items instead of entertainment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

...snip...

• Michigan has $11.8 billion need in drinking water infrastructure in next 20 years.
• Michigan has $3.7 billion need in wastewater infrastructure in next 20 years.
• I would rather see serious investment on those 2 items instead of entertainment

---

I agree with you on this. Not sure why you think its either-or.

You focus a lot on MONEY, and the shortage thereof. What makes you think that investing in entertainment infrastructure is reducing our ability to invest in water infrastructure? Why do you think $15.5 billion can't be funded to invest in water? Educate me. Don't try to scare me with big numbers without context.

Real Estate gets investors attention long before Infrastructure.
Where is someone going to ""lock away"" their capital first ?
It's a question of liquidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

Real Estate gets investors attention long before Infrastructure.
Where is someone going to ""lock away"" their capital first ?
It's a question of liquidity.

---

Municipal Bonds get my vote before Real Estate. Very reliable income. Little risk of bankruptcy -- present company excepted.

I've done my homework on this , not everyone like investing in InfraStructure.
That's why the USA has a major problem in getting itself fixed properly

Examples

http://www.pionline.com/article/2014...vestors-prefer

Taxes are immediate, and infrastructure's returns are long-term.
Therefore, an infrastructure tax, whether for a sewer system or development of a port,
is viewed by most taxpayers solely as a cost to avoid, not an investment,
says Andrew Herrmann, president of the American Society of Civil Engineers

As of April 2014, more than 90 percent of the $267 billion spent
by the public sector was at the state and local levels,
according to the latest Census Bureau report on construction spending.
The FEDS are not getting involved with the politics of it all.

http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wor...e-3.png?w=1024

http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wor...e-1.png?w=1024

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...rinking-water/

Love this quote from the article

“People resent having to pay anything for water,” she said. “There’s the thought that there’s a God-given right to have as much as we want but, if you want the cleanest water, these techniques take money.”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

I've done my homework on this , not everyone like investing in InfraStructure....

---

Excellent graphs. I can't reconcile this with the 'shovel ready' comments made by our President. Thought we would have seen in increase in public investment.

Krugman & Co. have been advocating that major investment as promised by 'shovel ready' is our best path to a return to 'normal'. That sure isn't it.

As to the tax resistance you cite, I don't think the problem is the public. I think the problem is the the government -- or what the government is today. The right in particular has major policy differences with the entitlement economy. Whether you agree or disagree, one can see that when a government migrates from being a provider of commonly agree-to services such as police, fire, trash, etc. to a social-welfare income redistribution machine, it should not be a surprise that many just don't want to fund it. Right or wrong, they believe those methods aren't best for society.

The second problem is that there's a strong believe on the right that the government has forgotten how to be an efficient method of getting things done. Corruption and bloat. Again, you need not agree on the facts. But the perception of the right is that tax increases do not go to investment. They go to gold-plated pensions, exorbitant pay, and schools that focus on global warming, social justice, and chocolate gun control more than basic education.

I don't want to get partisan here. Only trying to suggest that the resistance to taxes is not necessarily resistance to investment -- but has roots in other issues.

There is definitely some askew with representatives
meeting the everyday needs of the citizens.

Privitazation is NOT always the solution

http://redrundrain.wordpress.com/pri...-disasaterous/

As 2015 approaches how will people remember the sequence of events.

http://archive.freep.com/article/201...oit-bankruptcy

Another article about CHEMICALS discharged

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...igan-fish.html

Doing the bare minimum gets us in trouble
-- even if it """ meets""" federal standards

Water by the people, for the people, via Taxes ?
Choke on that awhile

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Excellent graphs. I can't reconcile this with the 'shovel ready' comments made by our President. Thought we would have seen in increase in public investment.

Krugman & Co. have been advocating that major investment as promised by 'shovel ready' is our best path to a return to 'normal'. That sure isn't it.

---

As you can see from the graphs, infrastructure spending did go up as part of the ARRA. However, the infrastructure portion of the ARRA wasn't actually that big [[about a third of the whole thing), and the Congress has not been willing to do anything subsequently, not even being willing to fund normal transportation spending now that the gas tax is inadequate. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of useful infrastructure spending to be done, or that it would not be good for the economy, especially at current interest rates. It just means that our political system isn't capable of doing things at the moment, or for the forseeable future.

But there is another infrastructure problem which is separate, which is that infrastructure projects cost a lot more in the US than they do pretty much anywhere else, including high labor cost locations like Scandanavia and Germany. So for the money we do spend, we get less infrastructure, which makes any particular project less attractive and harder to justify. I haven't seen any good research on why this is, but it is a very important question.

I wouldn't say that the US is moving to third-world status, but it appears to be falling out the top tier of nations in a number of areas, including infrastructure.

People in Michigan take clean water for granted.
They simply think it will be good forever.

It gets touched by millions in the USA
And then by other millions in Canada.

We are mucking it up really fast, very quickly
Better, cleaner discharge is mandatory.

Attachment 25506

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willi

I prefer stark reality, that way I see the sledgehammer coming at my skull with both eyes.
Honestly don't care much about Pistons, Red Wings, Tigers or the stadiums - I'm not there.
Couldn't give a diddly poo about the Casinos [[either side of the border) - I don't gamble.
I do, drink the water from my kitchen sink, take showers and recreate on the Great Lakes

• Michigan has $11.8 billion need in drinking water infrastructure in next 20 years.
• Michigan has $3.7 billion need in wastewater infrastructure in next 20 years.
• I would rather see serious investment on those 2 items instead of entertainment

---

Well, at least you don't like all 4 of the major sports...not just "USA Football".

I'm not arguing the point, but here is a a far more accurate representation of the Great Lakes basin. Image from http://www.epa.gov/greatlakes/basicinfo.html.

http://www.epa.gov/greatlakes/images/glbasin-small.png

Maybe people would prefer to pay Coke, Pepsi and Nestle for bottled water -- because that's the way its headed.

Green gook can happen here; just as easily as it did for our southern neighbors.
People take far too much for granted, and expect an "entity" aka the government ; to protect them, but they don't know what they want protection from....because they don't pay attention or make a big enough fuss over pollutants.

Sure it is safe to drink, you trust us, right ???
Flint water issues 2015, right now !

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...r_plans_2.html