[Reopened!] Kercheval at Wayburn will be closed to traffic in Grosse Pointe Park.

UPDATE: Aug. 12, 2019 - The controversial intersection has been reopened.

I was at a party on Sat. evening chatting with a well connected GP resident who confirmed that Kercheval will be closed to traffic between Wayburn and Alter.
At another party in the cabbage patch much to my surprise rumors had already started. To get around the "wall" issue a new building supposedly has been approved to be built at the location.
The biggest surprise was the black and small gay communities in the cabbage patch are very supportive of the project. Then the conversation moved to the time when Vernor and Charlevoix would be closed to through traffic.
Personally I do not want any street blocked as it makes a mess of my routes around the area, but an interesting development in light of recent events.

p69... no surprise on that one...

Living in SCS, I've always marveled at how from 8 1/2 Mile to 12 Mile the western border of the city has a moat [[I-94) and city walls [[brick sound barrier walls)... the only thing missing is a gate tower with arched entranceway at every half mile where a bridge crosses the "moat"... and it would look like a suburban version of a European medieval city such as Rothenburg , Carcassone or Avila.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

p69... no surprise on that one...

Living in SCS, I've always marveled at how from 8 1/2 Mile to 12 Mile the western border of the city has a moat [[I-94) and city walls [[brick sound barrier walls)... the only thing missing is a gate tower with arched entranceway at every half mile where a bridge crosses the "moat"... and it would look like a suburban version of a European medieval city such as Rothenburg , Carcassone or Avila.

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It was a little bit of a surprise for me as the Park had back burnered the project for awhile, but with the recent criminal activity I think the closure was quickly green lighted.

That Detroit neighborhood that starts there is an urban prairie.

I've noticed that and the GP folks who's homes back into that have got to be experiencing alot of crime and break ins. Fun for everyone! Reminds me of Atkinson street in Detroit which back up against Clairmont north - bad time for certain.

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Originally Posted by 48091

That Detroit neighborhood that starts there is an urban prairie.

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The first 3 western streets have the highest crime rate in GPP. I am not surprised they feel that way. Probably just getting tired of being crime victims.

Yeah, I was reading some GP crime stats and some were careless things one could argue like leaving cars unlocked and garage doors open. We Detroiter's have long given up such practices. Then there are open face to face robberies in the day time.

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Originally Posted by noggin

The first 3 western streets have the highest crime rate in GPP. I am not surprised they feel that way. Probably just getting tired of being crime victims.

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This started down on Korte and Alter years ago...and the wall option continues. This is just people trying to protect their hard earned property and in the worst case their lives. God speed, and this comes from someone who grew up on the wrong side of the wall!

Nah! --:rolleyes:-- No those rich folk need their 'wealth' redistributed as was the attempt to redistribute mine last week. I am also speaking from the other side of the wall!

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Originally Posted by EASTSIDE CAT 67-83

This started down on Korte and Alter years ago...and the wall option continues. This is just people trying to protect their hard earned property and in the worst case their lives. God speed, and this comes from someone who grew up on the wrong side of the wall!

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I saw architectural drawings that showed a 20k sq ft building that would be constructed closing Kercheval at Wayburn. It's only on paper, but with all that's going on in GPP along Kercheval, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

The various players that are allegedly behind this stuff have lots of plans for GP. How much of it will actually materialize is the question. I'd say if about half of what the rumors are actually happens, it would be pretty cool.

Walls and fences always spark debate and rancor, but I can appreciate that they want to keep their community safe or at least safer. Break ins are up and robberies too, face to face, fraud or other means.

They want that area to remain relatively 'walkable' without their citizens living in fear of someone going-upside-their-head or worse for an Iphone in broad daylight.

This idea has been floated around for years. Harper Woods was talking about doing the same thing. The crime rate in Grosse Pointe Park is way below state and national average and is at the same level as Birmingham. In 2010 Grosse Pointe Park recorded a total of 2 roberries. Harper Woods meanwhile recorded 42. No one seems to care about the spike in crime in Harper Woods. If I'm Grosse Pointe I would be more concerned with Harper Woods than the urban prairie that borders Grosse Pointe.

Some area and borders of Harper Woods are nuts for crime I hear. I work from to time near the GP border. There are problems. And there has had a recent spike and broad daylight incidences that has brought this issue up... from their new sources:

http://grossepointe.patch.com/search...lice%20blotter

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Originally Posted by Shollin

This idea has been floated around for years. Harper Woods was talking about doing the same thing. The crime rate in Grosse Pointe Park is way below state and national average and is at the same level as Birmingham. In 2010 Grosse Pointe Park recorded a total of 2 roberries. Harper Woods meanwhile recorded 42. No one seems to care about the spike in crime in Harper Woods. If I'm Grosse Pointe I would be more concerned with Harper Woods than the urban prairie that borders Grosse Pointe.

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Good luck Grosse Pointe, Kercheval is a bus route as well as a federal-aid highway.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Good luck Grosse Pointe, Kercheval is a bus route as well as a federal-aid highway.

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I have a feeling the bus rerouting has already been approved and I would not be surprised that some of the federal aid is being used to fund the project.

How is regular traffic being handled in this situation? Aren't the residents of Wayburn going to be PO'ed when a lot of Kercheval traffic [[with no where else to go) will be going up and down their street?

One big 'go-around' I suppose...

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Originally Posted by Gistok

How is regular traffic being handled in this situation? Aren't the residents of Wayburn going to be PO'ed when a lot of Kercheval traffic [[with no where else to go) will be going up and down their street?

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Hmmmmmmm....I'll bite.

There's essentially nothing on the other side of Alter, anyway. So no big deal, really.

However, what about My Dad's Bar [[formerly City Limits) and Art's Liquor [[both technically in Detroit)? It's funny to cut those off as those are all outlets for GP men to get away, presumably, from their shrill blue-haired wives. I kid you not, I frequent both of those places, and it has to be about 1/4 Detroit hipster [[at best) and 3/4 GP booze hounds [[at least) looking to loosen their collars. Despite being on the other side of the border, I swear by the God of all that most off the cross-pollinating has been strictly from the Pointers. So there is a bit of irony in closing the border in that particular spot, these days.

So much of it just smacks of the old, stodgy, Protestant GP ways that seem to die so, so hard. I look forward to hearing the saturated GP stories about circumnavigating the wall.

As for me, what can I say? On this side of Mack we have no such pretensions. I'll drink you all under the table, once you scale the wall. A very Happy Christmas!

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Originally Posted by p69rrh51

The biggest surprise was the black and small gay communities in the cabbage patch are very supportive of the project.

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that is suprising, i was always under the impression that blacks and gays living in Grosse Pointe not only advocated muggings and thievery but were the root cause of both.........

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Originally Posted by p69rrh51

I have a feeling the bus rerouting has already been approved and I would not be surprised that some of the federal aid is being used to fund the project.

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1. Federal aid will never be used to block a federal aid road for disrcimative purposes.

2. I can't find a single article or proposal to close this intersection.

I do not want to see the road closed, but there are a couple questions I have. Does the GP part of Kercheval receive federal aid? Is closing the road discriminating according the the federal/state guidelines? Also does there have to be an article of any sort proposing the closure have to be published?

It was at least 10 years ago when Harper Woods pitched the idea of blocking roads into the city and they got the idea from Grosee Pointe, and *gasp* Palmer Woods. Grosse Pointe has been pitching this since the 80's.

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Originally Posted by p69rrh51

I do not want to see the road closed, but there are a couple questions I have. Does the GP part of Kercheval receive federal aid? Is closing the road discriminating according the the federal/state guidelines? Also does there have to be an article of any sort proposing the closure have to be published?

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Yes. http://mdotwas1.mdot.state.mi.us/pub...FC11_WAYNE.pdf

Query google for "Evironmental Justice" and "Federal Funding"

There does not have to be an article, but you would think that it would at least have to be approved or discussed by Grosse Pointe Park's planning commission or council. If it is generating discussion on this board, it should be generating discussion elsewhere. My google query only came up with this thread.

Therefore, I am siding with saying it is a bunch of know it all planner wanna bes are spreading rumors throughout the Pointes that can be justified.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Yes. http://mdotwas1.mdot.state.mi.us/pub...FC11_WAYNE.pdf

Query google for "Evironmental Justice" and "Federal Funding"

There does not have to be an article, but you would think that it would at least have to be approved or discussed by Grosse Pointe Park's planning commission or council. If it is generating discussion on this board, it should be generating discussion elsewhere. My google query only came up with this thread.

Therefore, I am siding with saying it is a bunch of know it all planner wanna bes are spreading rumors throughout the Pointes that can be justified.

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I can assure city council is talking about it. When I lived in Harper Woods, our city council and chief of police were talking about it. There was a news article a couple years ago about it. The plan for Harper Woods was to seal itself off from Eastland. They picked the idea up from Grosse Pointe. Grosse Pointe should be more concerned about Harper Woods. It's denser and the criminals are even infiltrating their schools.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

Yeah, I was reading some GP crime stats and some were careless things one could argue like leaving cars unlocked and garage doors open. We Detroiter's have long given up such practices. Then there are open face to face robberies in the day time.

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We Detroiters had given up such practices resulting in the riff raff being bold enough to make GP their prey. I would love to live in a community where I could leave my garage door open and car doors unlock. My tax dollars would pay for the police protection even if it would resulting the cops to profile and harrass suspicious looking characters. GP had slackened on those practices. As late as the 90's GP was considered a "Sundown town". Criminals would not dare to look across Mack, Morross, nor Alter. They knew what would happen to them if they came across those invisible lines. More single parent mothers from Detroit had moved into the Parks within the past 10 years. Not saying that crime are done by some of their sons. Sometime crime could be caused by perpetrators who live in GP for many years. There are many Meth addicts in all suburban communities

You do know what a Sundown Town is, right? You forget yourself, which is good for everyone else.

Wow, just wow. This site. And people wonder why I'm always gobsmacked. This place can leave a grown man breathless. If it's not the thinly veiled racism [[and, as we can see, sometimes not veiled at all), it's the unfettered and disgustingly proud stupidity and ignorance that will get you.

The only comfort I take from these discussions is that you can only delay and not stop progress in this region, and while it's been painful to see the many delays, I know this ignorance and provincialism will be conquered if Metro Detroit has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

Talking about Sundown Towns in a favorable light? The f$ck you on?

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Originally Posted by Dexlin

Talking about Sundown Towns in a favorable light? The f$ck you on?

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You're a good man Dexlin. I thought the same thing.

Unfortunately there are many posters here who hear a word, they don't know what it means and they use it. You get this a lot from people who only have bad things to say about Mayor Young, or hear that Light Rail is the only transit improvement that will save us. Essentially you get a lot of parrots hear who say things without knowing what they mean. Some are hear to learn, others are here to argue.

The Pointes in general are still 'get out of Dodge' territory relative to driving per speeding... I don't mean someone clocking 47 in a 35 zone. I mean when the sign says 35 you better not go 36 mph over! Or you WILL BE STOPPED!

You can always tell someone who is not familiar with their tight traffic speed enforcement, you see them pulled over all along Jefferson beyond Alter even a block or into Detroit by the GP Police. And of course anyone presenting with warrants, no car insurance, suspended license or other 'issues' will have a very bad day when stopped.

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Originally Posted by stasu1213

...As late as the 90's GP was considered a "Sundown town". Criminals would not dare to look across Mack, Morross, nor Alter. They knew what would happen to them if they came across those invisible lines.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

The Pointes in general are still 'get out of Dodge' territory relative to driving per speeding... I don't mean someone clocking 47 in a 35 zone. I mean when the sign says 35 you better not go 36 mph over! Or you WILL BE STOPPED!

You can always tell someone who is not familiar with their tight traffic speed enforcement, you see them pulled over all along Jefferson beyond Alter even a block or into Detroit by the GP Police. And of course anyone presenting with warrants, no car insurance, suspended license or other 'issues' will have a very bad day when stopped.

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My experience was a little different.... before Christmas 2011 I drove eastwards on Mack Ave.... and got pulled over by GPP police. It seemed that my one brake light was out. He gave me a ticket with instructions. I replaced the bulb the following week, drove down to the GPP police station, saw the officer who issued it in the parking lot as I got out of the car... he came up to me, checked my citation, checked my now working brake light... took the ticket and my one dollar bill, shook my hand wishing me a safe holiday, and walked the ticket into the police station himself... leaving me stunned at the unexpected cordiality that I was unaccustomed to... :eek:

^^^ Oh, I did say they would not be cordial... they are just very thorough [[driver best have their paperwork intact). And precise about any level of speeding, which is ok with me as I rarely speed while driving... lead-footers will find it challenging.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

^^^ Oh, I did say they would not be cordial... they are just very thorough [[driver best have their paperwork intact). And precise about any level of speeding, which is ok with me as I rarely speed while driving... lead-footers will find it challenging.

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No Zacha341... you were quite right... I was just unprepared for that type of treatment from ANY police department... They're usually much more business like and emotionally detached...

That's a good point. Yeah, I am usually treated very well when stopped by the police, which thankfully does not happen often.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

No Zacha341... you were quite right... I was just unprepared for that type of treatment from ANY police department... They're usually much more business like and emotionally detached...

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I did not speak highly of the "Sundown Town" from a Detroiter's view. From a Grosse Pointer's view during that era that concept had kept their neighborhood free of burglary, armed robberies, snatch and grab, and panhandling. There had bad incidents of robberies and snatch and runs in the GPs which was done by people who were caucasian. There was an incident where a young white adult was caught breaking into cars in GP taking cell phones left on the seats and other items. There were a drug bust in one of the high schools in GP a few years ago. Let us not forget the Bashara case. Caribou Coffee in the Village had experienced a snatch and run earlier this year where a white guy with tatooes came into the shop and grabbed the tip jar full of money and trotted out the store. There are many communities who want their safety personel to get tough on crime. Sad to say that getting tough includes profiling. There are a couple of bloggers on this site who are infuriated on my using the "Sundown Concept". They should be as infuriated on the blocking of Kercheval to keep out some of the same people that Sundown told to get out by sunset

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Originally Posted by stasu1213

I did not speak highly of the "Sundown Town" from a Detroiter's view. From a Grosse Pointer's view during that era that concept had kept their neighborhood free of burglary, armed robberies, snatch and grab, and panhandling. There had bad incidents of robberies and snatch and runs in the GPs which was done by people who were caucasian. There was an incident where a young white adult was caught breaking into cars in GP taking cell phones left on the seats and other items. There were a drug bust in one of the high schools in GP a few years ago. Let us not forget the Bashara case. Caribou Coffee in the Village had experienced a snatch and run earlier this year where a white guy with tatooes came into the shop and grabbed the tip jar full of money and trotted out the store. There are many communities who want their safety personel to get tough on crime. Sad to say that getting tough includes profiling. There are a couple of bloggers on this site who are infuriated on my using the "Sundown Concept". They should be as infuriated on the blocking of Kercheval to keep out some of the same people that Sundown told to get out by sunset

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So...what was the point in mentioning single Detroit mothers moving to Grosse Pointe? What WERE you implying?

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Originally Posted by mam2009

So...what was the point in mentioning single Detroit mothers moving to Grosse Pointe? What WERE you implying?

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If it doesn't exist, inject it!

I appreciate the posts that have put some sanity into this discussion. First, we've noted how incredibly low the petty crime rate is in GP Park, miraculous in light of the level of wealth next to poverty. Second, we've noted that there may be legal barriers to this proposed barrier.

Finally, whether the original post fairly describes an actual proposal has also been called into question. GP Park is putting a lot of much needed emphasis on making its last 4-5 blocks of Kercheval a true downtown with fresh offerings. Several new restaurants, possibly great ones, are going in. I have heard that the City wishes to make those blocks into a pedestrian mall, banning all cars whether from GP or Detroit, for certain periods of time. Though I strongly query the goodness of such a proposal for accomplishing their aims of improved downtown retailing and such, it appears that this may be the proposal that some are conflating with something worse.

Now of course, that 'something worse' is a dastardly measure that has already been implemented on one-third to one-half of the streets leading one across Alter Road.

That said, I am not even sure that new roadblocks would receive political support. Kercheval is an extremely useful thoroughfare. And GP Park ain't such a conservative bastion any more.

Here's a copy of the article when Harper Woods put out the proposal. It briefly mentions Grosse Pointe Park and Palmer Woods.

http://michigansecuritynews.blogspot...e-sacs-to.html

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Originally Posted by Mackinaw

And GP Park ain't such a conservative bastion any more.

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A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

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Originally Posted by mam2009

So...what was the point in mentioning single Detroit mothers moving to Grosse Pointe? What WERE you implying?

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You know exactly what was implied, and what is implied is almost certainly correct.

When a community has a significant number of low income people moving into their jurisdiction, problems result. Obviously in the case of the Pointes, most of those will come from Detroit, and just going by demographics, most will be African American and single-parent.

The single biggest investment most people have is their home. When that's threatened, they will fight to preserve their assets. No way in hell do I want poor folks on Section 8 moving in next to me.

Call me a bigot, a classist or whatever, but my wealth is mostly tied up in my home, and we know that property values decline when neighborhoods transition downward in terms of economics.

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Originally Posted by Mackinaw

. And GP Park ain't such a conservative bastion any more.

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This has nothing to do with conservative, or white, or WASP bluehairs.

You think liberals, or gays, or African Americans prefer declining property values or rising crime?

Southfield is overwhelmingly black and Democrat, and practically the entire civic discourse is based around stopping more Section 8 folks from moving in and bringing down their property values.

There's a proposed WalMart in Southfield that has folks raging mad and angry about low income folks coming in and shopping. These angry homeowners are almost all black. You can't really blame folks for wanting to protect their assets and their families.

Very well stated and reasoned comment. The 'wink-wink' justification attitude towards crime so long as it's happening to a certain demographic is crazy! The blow-back of that thinking speaks in part to why we have so much crime in Detroit. As you point out some of the suburbs are not a 100% demographic. And black people are complaining about the potential of rising crime.

Thieves aren't motivated by revenge politics per se, at least not to anything sustainable towards any tangible social change [[sic). The 'goods' they bring back from their quarry will be re-stolen in the city! Thieves and criminals as I've said elsewhere on this site mainly seek an 'easy' mark...

I really don't want to be their next mark - again! I know I'll NOT BE SPARED because I'm not white, or bluehaired!

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

This has nothing to do with conservative, or white, or WASP bluehairs.

You think liberals, or gays, or African Americans prefer declining property values or rising crime?

Southfield is overwhelmingly black and Democrat, and practically the entire civic discourse is based around stopping more Section 8 folks from moving in and bringing down their property values.

There's a proposed WalMart in Southfield that has folks raging mad and angry about low income folks coming in and shopping. These angry homeowners are almost all black. You can't really blame folks for wanting to protect their assets and their families.

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I can vouch for the friendly professionalism of the GPP police officers, but we warn everyone who visits to drive twenty-NINE on Mack Avenue coming and going to our place.

I've seen some curious things in almost three years here. They seem to be equal-opportunity with their curiosity over pedestrians and cyclists, but I've never seen anyone of blander pigmentation getting tickets while driving.

Then again, when Detroit has their stings across the bridge by the car plant and on Vernor...they seem to balance the scales of justice a bit. [[still cannot quite seem to figure why the city doesn't do this on a regular basis...)


Cheers

For over 45 years the borders of Detroit Grosse Pointe Park from Mack to Alter Rd. and further down to Jefferson Ave. has been racially and property demarcated. So far there is a wall diving Mack Ave. from Alter Rd. to Moross St. between Black ghettohoods of Morningside and East English Village and the back alley between the neighborhoods of Wayburn St and Alter Rd to E. Jefferson St. It's been there ever since.

Now putting up a real concrete demarcation wall separating a blighted East Side Detroit ghettohoods from the rich white residents of Grosse Pointe Park by closing Kercheval and Vernor Rd. will not solve violent crime problems. MDOT and Detroit will approve this racist proposal. There always going to be crime everywhere. We can't eliminate it, only control it. This wall will not happen, but it does protest and TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!

Closing the street to automobile traffic doesn't necessarily mean closing it for bikes and pedestrians does it? Both of those watering holes could still easily be accessed.

I understand the benefits presumed that the closing Kercheval would create, but I have a feeling the bastards that come in to Detroit to dump their trash would just use another route.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

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PROFOUNDLY true and accurate statement Hermod, and I have "unfortunately" witnessed the conversion or enlightenment with more than a few freinds and family members, once you have been victimized you start to see things in a different light.

GP just got a dose of Santorum...even after pubic out cry, goes to show the mentality of the community.

I would like to think of it as we are closing Kercheval to keep the bigots out of Detroit...kind of how I wish all the people on here who dont live in Detroit would STFU.

IMO this is a terrible mistake that will, as most street closings do, lower retail traffic and hurt and kill businesses. In this case, not only in the Park, but down through the Village and the Hill as well.

It certainly will send a powerful message to me that my business is no longer wanted, and I will act accordingly.

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Originally Posted by EastsideAl

IMO this is a terrible mistake that will, as most street closings do, lower retail traffic and hurt and kill businesses. In this case, not only in the Park, but down through the Village and the Hill as well.

It certainly will send a powerful message to me that my business is no longer wanted, and I will act accordingly.

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THIS street closing is killing off business, but closing off I-375 will INCREASE business? Interesting.

Unlike the Chrysler Fwy. [[I-375), Kercheval is a surface street with 3 street-level retail business areas. Totally different situations.

Common sense and humanity have prevailed. The Kercheval "border wall" is gone.

"It's been nearly a half-decade since twoway traffic has flowed along Kercheval at the Detroit-Grosse Pointe Park border.

But this week - if the concrete on a newly poured westbound lane is ready - that will change.

"Traffic will start flowing into and out of Grosse Pointe Park on Kercheval, between Wayburn and Alter, after five years of either being blocked by farmers' market sheds or - more recently - being only open to a single lane of traffic, which flowed out of Detroit into the wealthier, predominantly white suburb to the east.

"The barrier wasn't just a physical one; it created social and emotional ones, too, "
https://freep-mi.newsmemory.com/?publink=1b7039244_1341080

So let's see what changes occur as a result of this re-opening.

My money is on absolutely none.

There are so few residences left on the Detroit side of Alter.

Mr. Grosse Pointe Park People, Please... open... That... Kercheval...Road.

Ich Bin Ein Detroit.

About damn time.