http://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/...suit-dismissal
http://www.freep.com/article/2014091...t-Quicken-jail
Eh...
I'm generally in favor of moving that shit out. Let downtown turn into something productive. And maybe that area of Mound might see some development.
On the other it would be almost twice as costly and the state is being no help.
My sister is a defense attorney. She is most definitely against moving the courts out of downtown.
The jail should be downtown, next to the courts. In what other city is the jail sitting off in the middle of nowhere?
Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.
The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.
Yeah, but putting the jail directly downtown is a bit much. Most healthier cities generally prefer to put the jail a bit outside of the CBD. Flint and Detroit are the only two cities I've been to where the jail is practically a central component of downtown. It's not a good look. Even Pontiac/Oakland County wasn't dumb enough to put the county jail directly in the CBD.
What does Mr. Gilbert want to turn the jail site into? Maybe he can convince his prominent business friends to put up money to help steer the jail to one of the alternative sites. Even if the jail is finished, won't there still be overcrowding issues?
How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by nain rouge
I would argue that Pontiac would have been MUCH better off if the various county functions, including jail, would be right downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by nain rouge
The plan was to turn the three existing jails and Frank Murphy into housing and build some sort of entertainment facility on the fail jail site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypestyles
But are they an ugly un-urban mass?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
http://detroit.curbed.com/uploads/Sc...05.35%20PM.png
Well that's a separate issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
I never said that I supported the jail plans, just that there isn't something inherently bad about having a jail in a city center.
For all the claimed benefits about a potential new hockey arena, I bet you a county jail would do more for downtown on a day-to-day basis. You would have hundreds of employees there 24/7, and they would need restaurants and services. You would also have a constant stream of visitors. An arena will just be an empty tomb 95% of the time.
But no one in charge of things downtown knows a thing about building cities.
People don't exactly consider jails a gathering spot to hang out with friends [[unless those friends are in the wrong places).
There is a negative effect, it breaks up the usable space downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Gilbert has a large conflict off interest though, as he wants to connect Greektown with the rest of his empire. However, some folks would point out that if Gilbert succeeds in creating a contiguous CBD, that everyone wins, not just Gilbert.
just stop. you love to troll with exaggerated facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I am completely against proceeding with the jail, and also think the state should assist the financing of expansion at Mound Rd. That said, I think a deal needs to be worked out to scale down Gilbert's plan a bit. I see no justification for removing Murphy Hall of Justice. Tear-down would be wasteful, and its continuing existence really shouldn't get in the way of better uses on the fail jail site, and a renovation of former Police HQ. Moreover, defendant transport from an outer jail to a downtown court should be no big deal. Hell, NYC transports people to and from an island on its fringes.
In short, stop the jail, but spare Frank Murphy. P.s., courts aren't the worst land use-- the large volume of employees, jurors, and attorneys constitutes a lot of foot traffic and restaurant demand during the day, and if they have night court, they even add a little something at night.
Bham, of all those cities you listed, I believe Manhattan is the only one where I'd truly say that the jail is in the thick of downtown. In LA, the jail is by the rail yards. In Chicago, it's in an industrial section of the city. In a city with as much empty space as Detroit, it doesn't make sense to build the jail that close to the commercial center. Somewhere on the near east side just seems better.
The guy who vehemently argues against professional sports venues downtown in post after post infinity, now says that large brand new jail complexes are a good idea within a 9 iron shot of them. Why not just say "I want everything in Detroit to fail forever" and be done with it and save himself a lot of time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I would love for someone to explain what all of these new entertainment venues in the arena district and jail site will be. We already have theaters, 3 stadiums, 3 casinos, an opera house, etc. Exactly how many more restaurant/bars pushing the same menu of burger, wings and pulled pork are needed, most of which are empty on non-game nights. There is still far too few residents to support additional restaurants, etc. in the next few years.
No, they don't. NYC has jails connected to its criminal courthouses.If you're arrested in Manhattan, you are jailed in the same complex where you are arraigned and tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw
You're referring to Rikers Island, which is for longer stays in the justice system.
Not true. Chicago has a jail complex right in the very heart of the Loop. LA has a jail complex right downtown. Brooklyn has a jail right downtown. So does Philly. So does Boston.Quote:
Originally Posted by nain rouge
I am confused why people think a jail is a negative use, and then think a sports stadium is a positive use. It's a completely misguided understanding of how city centers work.
I don't mind the jail being downtown, but I do kind of wish it wasn't fronting Gratiot. I think it would also be a very bad thing if the removal of 375 were to happen. A jail should not be the first thing people see as they come into the city [[especially one with crime issues). For now, while it's not the best location, it's not the worst either. Definitely not a fan of the hundreds of millions over budget thing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I don't know about LA or Chicago, but the Tombs is a relatively small facility, similar to the current Wayne County jailhouse, used for temporary detention before prisoners are transferred to Rikers, which is pretty far from downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
That question was being asked 15 years ago when downtown was emerging from the tumbleweed ages of the post-Hudson's-closing ghost town.Quote:
Originally Posted by 401don
Downtown is a metro, indeed international metro, destination. So the 'too few residents' is not that important of a factor [and though those numbers are growing]. 4-5 million visitors a year come for the professional sporting events alone. More venues will attract more visitors. Why? Because the will all be actively marketing themselves. It's a symbiotic effect.
Whether or not a bubble will grow and pop remains to be seen but for now it is up and up. Even if there is a retreat, the corner has been turned.
Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.
"You have got to be kidding".....you don't support a political project that includes bogus/fake millions of dollars for political skimming....."you have got to be kidding"? :rolleyes: [[Insert laughter)
THIS. They are a hole into which tax money is thrown...or in the case of the fail jail, outright stolen. Get it on the tax rolls.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
I'm really kind of taken aback by some people looking at it and saying "Well, it's cheaper to just finish it so we should." It's like taking your car into the shop and having a band aid repair done instead of looking at the bigger picture and saying "Will I still be okay with my decision a few years down the road? Is it worth the extra money to invest in a better, but more expensive repair? What options are available to me, and after looking through each, which makes the most OVERALL sense?"
Too many people are looking at this and saying "Oh, well other cities did it and it's cheaper and by the courts so it's a good idea" instead of saying "Is this the best use of land when taking into account the future? Will this land end up contributing more to downtown as a jail, or as a not jail? Is someone willing to snatch up the remnants of this project and turn the site into something that improves the quality of life downtown?" THOSE are the questions we as a city and metro area need to ask instead of looking for the same quick band aids we have always used and very rarely pan out 10-20 years down the road.
Bham, doesn't Frank Murphy HoJ have the short term jail facility? I thought fail jail was supposed to be a Rikers equivalent? I know full well about downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn's holding facilities, I walk past them almost daily and have friends who are prosecutors. You don't need to educate me on the physical logistics of arraigning. I am QUITE sure, however, that Fail Jail is not supposed to be the place we hold people who have been brought in by the police. Seriously, there aren't THAT many criminals...
Regarding the location of the currently stalled jail project, at the time the decision was made to build it, it was the right location because it was across the street from FMHJ, just as the 2 current jails downtown are. Just a little bit of history, there has been a sheriff/police/jail facility in that area since the mid 1800s, so it's not as if there was this sudden decision to plop a jail in the middle of a booming area. This criminal justice area has been long established.
Regarding the Mound Rd facility, the part of facility the State proposed to sell to the County is pretty much scrapped & gutted. There would have to be a lot rebuilding in that facilty to make it habitable & workable as a jail. It would pretty much be like starting from scratch to make work. Plus, there is no building for a courthouse. That would have to be constructed. Also, the parking at that facility would have to be significantly expanded to accomodate all the traffic that would go with the jail & courthouse.
Regarding Gilbert's complaint, the County is taking their time evaluating all options. Gilbert offered $50 million for the stalled jail, the other 2 jails, FMHJ,the juvenile detention center, and I think the old DPD HQ. That's alot of prime real estate for only $50 million. I know Gilbert supporters will say that he will have to spend a whole bunch more in demolition & construction costs to get the area to his vision. However, the County is looking out for their interests too. From their perspective, $50 million isn't a whole lot of money for that land and will just put a dent in the payments on the bonds for the stalled jail. Gilbert is bristling because he can't get a bunch of prime land dirt cheap. The County has $300 million in bond money tied up in this project that they want to get more of a return on than $50 million.
Regarding why is the County thinking about continuing the jail, especially at this point, well you have deadlines that were set months ago that required a decision to be made about the status of the jail. These deadlines are up which is forcing the conversation to take place.
What's really going to happen? Despite all this discussion, I think nothing will happen the remainder of this calendar year. Indictments have been issued. Lawsuits have been filed. The outcomes of these legal activities will have an impact on what happens next. Ficano is out. The new County Exec, probably Warren Evans, along with any new commissioners will have the say in what happens. That won't happen until next year at the earliest. This thing is far from over.
It does not. Inmates are either brought through the tunnels underneath from the two jails downtown or transported by deputies from the Hamtramck jail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw
True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
Maybe they could add a fancy, high-end coffee shop to the lobby of the jail with some kind of catch line? Something like "Our beans are locked up for 30-90 days, before they are ground, and their flavor released".Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
It sort of makes me think of how Wall Street is [[the literal street). You mostly just see guys in business suits scurrying across the street in and out of buildings. And really that could be any financial district in America, but the thing is, financial districts [[and often government districts) have no draw for anyone else to be there other than the people who work there. In that case, what would make a downtown different than a suburban office park?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
But I do understand the point in your other post about the fail jail being in an area that was already established as an area for the criminal justice system and it makes sense to have the facilities centralized downtown. Though the way Wayne County has handled it is absolutely abysmal and I think a more competent organization would have done a completely better job on the whole process.
If Gilbert got his hands on that land, probably the first thing he would do is demand a tax abatement for "jobs created", which may or may not replace the jobs moved out to Mound, so no net gain for the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
"Well, it's cheaper to just finish it so we should."
Whatever happens will be paid out of our pockets. What I can't see is replacing the entire complex, for Gilbert's conveniance.
Rennovating Mound, as a jail, is one thing, and would only make sense if that cost less than finishing the present project. Replacing the entire complex is another. The Frank Murphy was built in 68, and, from what I have seen is not run down. When was the Juvenile facility built? It looks like it's from the 80s. The jail on St Antoine next to the Frank Murphy doesn't look all that old either. The only really old buildings are on the back side of the block.
To use the car repair analogy, what Gilbert wants to do would be the same as scrapping a good servicable car because it's time for an oil change.
at some point those abatements expire. and if Gilbert is true to his proposals, residential and commercial will be in the mix. so, long term, it's a net gain as instead of a superblock of prison block you'd have a neighborhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
FM is dilapidated and it's one of 4 buildings that the Wayne County circuit court is spread out among. All need significant upgrades. What would make actual financial sense would be to consolidate them all in one court complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
really it's like your 10 person family trading in four 40+ yr old two seater cars that you've barely been able to keep on the road and which have not served your family's needs very well for quite some time for one new SUV that fits everyone and is state of the art.Quote:
To use the car repair analogy, what Gilbert wants to do would be the same as scrapping a good servicable car because it's time for an oil change.
the only services jail visitors use are the vending machines in the visiting room. they aren't going to slow's for a yardbird afterward...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
You are completely right, and I was lumping the three buildings-- FMHOJ and the two adjacent jail buildings-- together as one unit. But my question to Bham and my partial objection to the Gilbert plan still stand. So, help me figure this out. Is Fail Jail supposed to supplement and have the exact same role at these other two extant buildings adjacent to Frank Murphy? Meaning do we NEED Fail Jail to hold people awaiting arraignment and make due process happen, or is Fail Jail for people who have been bound over and are awaiting trial?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
I just object to this all or nothing approach, which is Gilbert's plan, under which the whole criminal justice facility must move to Mound Rd.-- or somewhere else-- and that FMHOJ and the extant jails must go bye-bye. Why the waste? If we have a decent, well-located courthouse, and if we have sufficient short term jail space adjacent to it to hold people awaiting their hearing, why not leave all of this in place and move fail jail's new capacity elsewhere, Mount Rd. or otherwise?
I encourage Gilbert to draw a distinction, to see that he can build something substantial on the HUGE fail jail site and nearby empty lots around Gratiot, over to Randolph, to tour downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn to see that interesting, vibrant [[including residential) uses can exist in close proximity to criminal court facilities, and to accordingly make an attractive proposal to bail out the Fail Jail site but not saddle our county with moving the entire criminal justice facility. I agree with him as to the site at issue, but I cannot get on board with such a wasteful and unnecessary overall plan.
The fact there are jails in cities is sort of beside the point. The one thing Detroit has is land available to remove things like Jail complexes from the core of the city. In no one's planning manual is a Jail complex a highest and best use for a block of land between a stadium district and an entertainment area and that acts as a main gateway to what everyone is trying to make the premiere area of the region. It's just silly. Compounding the silliness is the colossal incompetence and criminal acts that have lead to the thing going hundreds of millions over budget and years late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw
The all or nothing approach is being pushed because, as gilbert notes, this type of opportunity to make large transformative change is rare. Build the jail and there and that will be the last thing built there. None of the lots will be replaced by hipster lofts. Heck, look across the street. PWC moved out of a brand spanking new building because they preferred not to be across the street from the hulking cement mass of jail complex.Build the jail, might as well salt the earth around it.Quote:
“Recruiting is important to us, and having a jail across the street certainly doesn’t help. You know what they say, “Location, location, location,’ ” Breen told Crain’s. “Having a jail there was certainly a factor.”
Excellent point. Detroit should be considering a strategic approach where we move these complexes out of Downtown. We've got enough space that we can move the jail and the courthouses out.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
The only possible downside I see is that the jail and courts employ a lot of people that may frequent downtown businesses, so we'd see a loss of economic activity. However, what might replace those could be better.
Why not? Jail visitors include attorneys, physicians, counselors, and many other types. And court visitors [[the courts would have to be moved too) would have an even bigger impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridy
Visit Chinatown in Lower Manhattan at lunchtime on a weekday. The courts and jails pretty much sustain the local lunchtime economy.
Again, I'm not saying that jails are an ideal use, or even a good use, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have the court and jail facilities in a unified, centralized complex, and I do think these facilities have lots of well-paid employees and visitors that benefit local businesses. It isn't like the criminals are going anywhere.
The Brooklyn Jail is located adjacent to some of the most expensive and desirable residential blocks in the borough, as well as retailers like Barneys and JCrew. I don't get what is so bad about a jail complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
Are people aware that parole and probation offices, outpatient treatment facilities, methadone clinics, and various homeless services are conducted out of private office buildings in city centers? I would imagine those uses are far less desirable, and yet most downtown centers seem to accommodate such facilities just fine.
at some point those abatements expire.
Meanwhile, County residents have to pay the debt servicing costs on the extra $300M of debt that would be undertaken to move all the justice facilities to Mound.
FM is dilapidated
I have been in the lobby, jury room and a court room, and it all looks fine to me.
And what of the juvenile facility? Gilbert's plan means abandoning it too.
instead of a superblock of prison block you'd have a neighborhood.
Take a look at an aerial photo. There is tons of room for neighborhoods all over midtown. Gilbert's problem is that land isn't next door to Greektown.
He's whining about the courts and jails next door to his fancy new hotel sounds like the guy who buys a house at the end of an airport runway, then demands the airport move, at someone else's expense, because he don't like the noise.
Bham, we're making history here-- I completely agree with you points here [[criminal justice facilities can be a contributing, not to mention neccesary, part of a downtown, and they should be downtown particularly in a city with such limited transit across its outer parts). See also: http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/detr...rt-alternative
But I still just can't get on board with completing fail jail. The alternative that I perceive is improving the current jail facilities-- two buildings mind you, perfectly connected to the court, which should be able to adequately cover people in short term holding-- and to the extent any additional space is needed for people awaiting trial, look elsewhere in the city. The Fail Jail site is as large as FMHOJ+the two jails+Old Police HQ. It's massive. There is no justification for locking up such a large site for mere duplication of nearby uses. And this much of what Gilbert says is true-- the spot is too well located and too marketable for better uses. Combine this with the alternatives available, and I think the site, on its own, should be sold to the high bidder on a mixed use development RFP. And I see no reason why we must insist on an "entertainment district." I would be perfectly happy if the existing entertainment corridors of downtown [[particularly Park Ave., Bricktown-Greektown, Campus Martius, and the seeds of nightlife we see on Capital Park and Merchants Row) filled in with intensified use and expanded organically-- no need to create another pocket of "entertainment" activity when residential or some other creative use would quite possibly contribute even more, and lead to more good things and a well-rounded downtown.
Let's put a big Oakland County jail next to you in Birmingham.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Exellant points. There is no shortage of land that does not generate revenue so why would you drop a new jail on property that can? Make a deal Wayne county, a billionaire wants your "fail jail property" duh? How about cash plus x amount of new high rise residences in x amount of time Mr. Gilbert. That property at 30 stories would have awesome views inside comerica. Does Wayne county understand that residents pay taxes and criminals do not?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
OK.... I'm not going to get into the discussion about what to do with the Fail Jail site...
But I do want to emphasize this.... expand the entertainment disctrict.... Why?
During the our downtown theatre tours in August I had a discussion with one theatre operator who was lamenting that we don't have enough entertainment/visitors to go around as it is... many of the theatres are experiencing a lot of empty nights. Ditto for restaurants nearby.
Due to the problems of filling what we already have... the Gem Theatre no longer does much in the way of shows.... All Night Strut... Forbidden Broadway.... etc.... that's history... the Gem and Century now concentrate on weddings to make ends meet.
Before we decide to grow the district... let's try first to better fill what we already have, rather than end up like the casinos and keep fighting over an ever shrinking piece of the economic pie.... :[[
The oldest of the buildings are the old DPD HQ and the old jail. Both of these buildings were built in the 1920s. The new jail was built in the 1980s. The juvenile detention center was built in the late 1990s-early 2000s. The Hamtramck jail was built in the 1990s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
The stalled jail was originally supposed to replace all 3 jails, 2 downtown & 1 in Hamtramck. As construction started, that got scaled back to replacing only the 2 downtown. The intent has always been to replace at least the 2 downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw
FMHJ is far from dilapidated. I don't know what your definition of dilapidated is or if you are just make a judgement call from the outside, but there is nothing wrong with that building at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
That's an interesting first hand revelation that many folks are probably not going to be aware of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
In San Diego the Central jail is right downtown, larger facilities do generate foot traffic, the many keepers do spend money...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
-Former Wayne County Circuit Chief Judge Virgil Smith, in an article he wrote back in 2010.Quote:
Lastly, unlike virtually any other court in the State, the Court’s core operations in its four divisions [[Criminal, Civil, Domestic Relations and Juvenile) and the Friend of the Court — both judicial and administrative — are spread out over four buildings, spanning a distance of more than two and half miles! The fact that the Court’s computer systems are not integrated and modernized only exacerbates the logistical problems faced by the Court’s administration in operating out of four buildings.
....
Also, considerable savings could be realized from the reduction in the costs of maintaining all these buildings, since three of four buildings [[Lincoln Hall of Justice, the Penobscot Building, and the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice) need significant rehabilitation given their present dilapidated condition.
I've not seen any improvements since then.
So we should not build any more residential, retail, parking and commercial spaces that aren't theaters because Forbes, Nederlander and Olympia can't book enough shows at their theaters that appeal to local tastes? 30kish will be packing into CoPa to watch the Tigers whenever they're in town. 100k drove out to AA to watch a crap college team play another college team that hasn't won a game in 3 years. 65k will pack FF to watch the [[historically) worst Pro football team in the league play. When's hockey start?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Maybe there just isn't a market here for musicals? Or a market at all for much "theater"? Or maybe they need to evaluate their pricing. In a 5 million person metro area, the issue isn't a lack of market, it's having a product not much of the market gives a shit about. That's a just the reality of the rust belt.
Restaurants will always have dead nights... but you know what makes them less dead? MORE RESIDENTIAL. Which is part of the Gilbert plan.
Quote:
Gilbert's plan, favored by the building authority, is proposing a $500 million, 1.7 million square-foot development to include residential, hotel, retail and parking units
Gilbert doesn't want residential. He doesn't get urban planning, and thinks the jail complex lessens his prospects for success with his new casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
If Gilbert really, truly wants residential, he already owns half of downtown. Let's see him actually build something. Better yet, let's see him build something without generous taxpayer subsidies.
I have to agree with this to a certain extent. When is he going to build something of substance? Preferably on the Hudsons Lot... It seems like a big residential tower would show confidence in the market and spur additional development. Gilbert's the one to do it. Who else is in that position besides Illitch who already has a massive undertaking about to begin? I think Gilbert may be loosing leverage as Downtown revives, the city may not be as apt to just "giving" him what he wants. It's a good sign for the city..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
On a side note, how much longer does Gilbert have the rights for a Hudson lot
proposal?
Hey, I heard you guys at the Gem Theater are having a rough time making money. Instead of encouraging you to book events that draw customers, I think we'll build a jail right down the street from you. Jails are great destination points in New Urban America. Go visit Tim at the lock up, get a nice dinner at Vincente's and then catch a show at the Gem :) Sounds like an amazing night!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
In case you missed my point through the sarcasm, a jail won't help the Gem do better business. Moving the courts and jail from downtown and using the land to add more destinations WILL attract more people to the Gem. That is, if the Gem decides that "having events" is an important part of "owning an event center". If you have a good selection of restaurants, night life options for after you catch a show at the theater, and people feel like they are walking around in a downtown that is alive, you'll end up with more people down there. Period. If you put a court room and a jail down there, both of which are never really active after a certain evening hour, it's going to feel dark and desolate in that part of downtown and neighboring businesses WILL be affected.
Seriously, are we unable to look into the future on this? Are we unable to build with the assumption that this growth spurt will continue and eventually mature out to a semi-functional [[I never think it'll be fully functional) downtown? Or should we just build what we need now and then tear it down later when the CBD is out of room to expand?
Much of the issues with the hudsons site are bound up in what is happening with Compuware and its building. look for news on the ownership of the building and downtown office shuffling soon. [[soon...in the Detroit vernacular meaning 18-24 months)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbest
re: hudson's site, IIRC Rock needs to commit to at least 75 million in investment at the site by June of 2016 to get the Renaissance Zone designation.
Thanks Bailey..
Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
Just how long has the existing justice center [[Jail/Courts/Law enforcement HQ) been sitting in that area next to the only part of downtown Detroit that has continually maintained any vitality during the lean years..... namely Greektown. Greektown has been doing just fine sitting within 2 blocks of all those buildings for over half a century. I never ONCE heard anyone say "uh oh... we better not go to Greektown for lunch or dinner... because you know what's sitting nearby! :eek: )
The Gem/Century were moved over a dozen years ago right next door to 36th District Court.... and within view of the old city/county jail. Ditto for Music Hall, which has ALWAYS been located within 2 blocks of it. And again... I've never ever heard anyone complain about the proximity to the justice center.
My point is NOT that we shouldn't move the jail... as I explained in my comment. I just think that moving the entire court system from there is a very bad move. Just who do you think goes to the now struggling Greektown restaurants at lunch time? Not the casino patrons... not all the folks living in lofts nearby.... but many of the court employees, lawyers and judges. If we move out the government/legal employees from that area... the impact will be felt by all the restaurants and businesses that depend on the lunch crowd. Put the jail where ever you folks want... I really don't care.... just don't move the ancillary services out of the downtown area.
If you happen to be around Comerica Park or the Fox Fillmore area at lunch.... good luck in finding a place to have lunch... they're all depending on the entertainment crowd.... and won't be open until evening..... :[[
So, you're basing this on Virgil Smith's OPINION from 4 years ago? Have you ever even been in FMHJ? When were you last there? My job requires me to go in there at least once a week. I know the place is not dilapidated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
So we should keep the courthouse and jail downtown to help boost business in Greektown? Because Greektown businesses and area theaters are "doing poorly" after a tour you went on? Did you completely look past the "maybe we should look ahead instead of what is happening today?" part of what I said? Places aren't open for lunch because who is going to go to a middle-to-"higher" end restaurant for lunch? I know I wouldn't. I would go to the taco place, or the cheaper salad place, or Potbellys, or somewhere that is affordable. Stop looking at things how they are and saying "This is how it is; this is how it must be" and instead look at the CBD and say "This is how it is; This is what it CAN be". It is a place where courts are, but it could be a bustling and lively area of downtown. Plus if they relocated the courts, you'd see less citizens getting bullshit parking tickets and having to pay ridiculous rates to park in broke ass surface lots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
OK... I didn't just "go on a tour".... I am part of Preservation Detroit's annual downtown theatre tours... for 15 years now... and as part of that... over the years I have talk to many of the building owners/operators... the DiChiera, Forbes...etc. So I hear things from their perspectives... If you want to relocate all the court systems out of downtown... then fine... that's your opinion... [[and the discussion of parking tickets is irrelevent to that discussion).Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
If the courts move out of Detroit... then more downtown office space gets emptied out... and then your "This is how it can be"... takes on some unpleasant consequences for a lot of downtown building owners.... :[[
http://www.yellowpages.com/detroit-m...district-court
i agreed with it when he was dealing with the dysfuncitonal set up 4 years ago and I haven't seen much in the way of improvement. if you think its all peaches and cream there.... i really can't argue other than to say I think you're setting a really low bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
Cut a deal, negotiate that's how things get done. Leave FMHJ out of it and see what he will promise under contract to build on the "fail jail" site and get a imeadiate renovation on 1300 Beaubien that is now starting the Wayne County rot process. Work with what is now useless to your tax rolls and get something big out of it. Hint: residences, residences and more residences. Quit giving it away for a dollar and get something built you can tax. Get people to move in that you can tax. Make Gilbert put his money where his mouth is.
The evening news was bubbling about the new Red Wings arena district tonight. All funding lined up. Groundbreaking Sept 25.
That district, plus the M-1 rail project, plus proximity to Comerica and the Fox, plus lots of open or easily cleared land for further redevelopment in the immediate area, makes me start to wonder if Gilbert is thinking Greektown was a bad move as, in comparison to the Woodward corridor, it's off in the boonies. His lowball offer for the justice complex may be a desperation move to save his investment in Greektown, at the cost to residents of an extra $300M to accommodate him.
considering how much detroit relies on casino revenue to make it's payroll.... perhaps making sure conditions are such that one doesn't fail is something of a mutual benefit here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
As I recall, Greektown already failed once, as it was bankrupt when Gilbert bought it. Then he doubled down by building the new facility. Greektown is a small enclave on the wrong side of downtown, compared to the other casinos. All Gilbert would get with his plan is a larger enclave on the wrong side of downtown. There is no reason to tear down viable buildings, the justice complex, for redevelopment when there is so much open land and so many abandoned buildings along Cass. Midtown is where the major growth will be. Why should Gilbert be bailed out by taxpayers?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
in what universe is paying 50 million to buy the site and then committing to spend 500 million on its redevelopment a "bail out"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
if it's about the price of the land...fine... i can see that as being too cheap for what it takes to move that much to mound. But let's not act like he's getting an Illitch style hand-out here. Gilbert didn't run the place into the ground, tear it down and then sit on the moonscape of blight for 30years before demanding the tax payers build him a superblock of entertainment complex.
In addition, the mentality that this area can only be a jail/courthouse/etc area is pretty amazing, coming from the same set who bark about "SAME OLD DETROIT" constantly. If Gilbert wants to invest and turn what is currently a court-hours-only bustling area into an entertainment district to compliment the casino, why not? The Fail Jail is already beyond what can be described as over budget, and I would bet any money that finishing it would end up going over budget too. Wayne County tried doing A Thing, said Thing did not work out well at all and ended in criminal prosecution, so why is anyone at all preaching that would should continue doing That Thing that wasted hundreds of millions and ended with criminal prosecution?Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
boonies? wrong side of downtown? what the hell are you talking about? greektown is one of the major success stories downtown and one of the most thriving areas, but you think its in the middle of nowhere compared to mgm and motorcity? which are essentially isolated islands... i think you may need to take a walk downtown and get a feel for what is actually going on down there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
also he isnt being bailed out by the taxpayers at all on this. when the county desperately asks for other proposals and he comes to the table with his own money and a plan its not a bailout.
i personally dont have a problem with the courts remaining where they are, but there is a real opportunity to do something nice in the gratiot corridor. id love nothing more than to see positive development that can further link lafayette park and eastern market to downtown. a jail fortress doesnt accomplish that.
in what universe is paying 50 million to buy the site and then committing to spend 500 million on its redevelopment a "bail out"?
That would be the universe where the taxpayers pony up $650M, instead of $350M, to vacate viable facilities, so Gilbert can do what he wants next door to Greektown.
This is exactly what it is, a lowball offer. However, I wouldn't call it desparation. I 'd call it capitalization. He's banking on negative public sentiment about how the jail construction has been handled to date, plus beating the drum about the "bad image" a jail would present there all in an effort to get all this land for cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
boonies? wrong side of downtown? what the hell are you talking about? greektown is one of the major success stories downtown and one of the most thriving areas, but you think its in the middle of nowhere compared to mgm and motorcity? which are essentially isolated islands
Take a stroll between Cass and the Lodge. Look at all the open land and abandoned buildings, next door to the arena project and close to MGM and Motor City. That is where the future growth will be. Greektown is going to be a backwater.
Here is the district as envisioned
http://headsupdetroit.com/blog/wp-co...strict-map.jpg
Look, like I said... I don't give a rats ass where the jail[[s) end up... but there's no reason to move the courts out of downtown. If they do move... who is going to pay for that? And how do we know the county isn't going to mess that up as well? Ditto for the Sheriff's HQ... that's also right next to the MHOJ.... Building new courts and Sheriff's HQ outside the downtown area because there's no room left in the downtown area is one thing.... but that's not the case here... and saying that the county taxpayers should cough up another couple hundred million to move everything to Mound Rd. just so that Gilbert can have a nice contiguous playground for his casino.... well that may not sit well with everyone....Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
except the taxpayers werent supposed to be paying more than 300 in the first place... and we've now blown way past 350 million... it was 370 when construction was halted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
I get wanting to get more for the parcels. fine. but this bullshit about it being bad for the city or the taxpayer is just silly. It's an attempt to fix something for the long term good vs. the typical detroit answer of slapping a bandaid on a bullet wound and calling it good. Doing it right ALWAYS costs more than jerry rigging.
so a neighborhood that has survived detroit's darkest days is now going to be a backwater because of an entertainment proposal? so ignore the nightlife, bars, retaurants and all of that which make greektown popular, gilbert is desperate due to a proposal by a developer with an atrocious track record of following through on anything, much less 45 blocks. you honestly have no idea what you are talking about. on any night downtown there is more traffic on monroe than anywhere else in the city. that is going to continue regardless of what illitch does and regardless of what happens with the jail site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
What is so wrong with the Mound Rd. site? According to wiki it was built in 1994 and I remember the state said WC could have it for a dollar. I don't know much about jails but couldn't a 20 yr old state pen make do for a county jail for a while with some upgrades? Or do jails have to be brand new every 25 years or so? It can't just be transportation, 10 million dollars would buy a lot of prisoner transport. It seems to me that the politicians involved said we need "new and shiny" and now are trying to save face by sticking to "new and shiny"
The spin is the needs of a jail are different, something about the logistics of moving prisoners in and out for short stays typical of a jail, vs long stays for a state pen, so the existing prison would require a lot of rennovation. I don't understand the transportation issue either. If transportation was such a problem, why do they have the jail in Hamtramck?Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
There have been a lot of people implying the new jail was sited downtown for reasons of graft, the bigger the amount of money involved, the more that can be skimmed off and pocketed.
But that's all water under the bridge. We have $150M in the ground, so the question is where do we go from here? I just think walking away from the other viable facilities downtown, at even more expense to taxpayers, for Dan Gilbert's conveniance, just continues the graft that started with the new jail.
That's the part that is the real kicker.... if it were just moving the jail itself to the Mound Rd. site, that would not be such a big problem. However that large parcel of land that the incomplete FailJail is on is surrounded by other properties that Gilbert wants...Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve203
For example... there's the Juvenile Justice Center... which takes up the entire block between the Greektown Hotel/Parking structure and the FailJail site. Over $75 million was spent to build this not more than a dozen years ago. What will replace that, where will it be built... and who's going to foot the bill??
And then there's the courts.... the Wayne County Circuit Court [[much of which is in the Murphy Hall of Justice), and across Gratiot there's the 36th District Court. If Gilbert wants that property as well, the cost of one or two courthouses tacked onto the other costs for Juvenile Justice and other expenses makes this much more than a simple move of a single jail.... we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars here... :eek:
It's so easy to just say yeah let Gilbert have the property.... it's another thing when you have to crunch numbers for dollars that are pretty scarce right now.... let alone anything that gets siphoned off the top for county cronies.... :[[
As I said in an earlier post, much of it has been gutted & scrapped by urban miners.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
Wouldn't that end up making it easier to fit that jail to their needs? Y'all are such bummers sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie5275
Heck no! A trashed prison does not equate to a great jail. What will the scrappers take? All metal, wiring, plumbing, electrical, anything that has a tiny bit of value and is not nailed down.Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
It's called a renovation ya dummy. Also sarcasm. But mostly free gutting work done by our hardworking citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
Well looks like that's that.
Downtown is getting a new jail.
The more I read about the two sites, it's hard not to side with just completing the jail in place. Yes, Gilbert wants to use the land and create, well, whatever vision he has for the area. But to think that moving the jail to the Mound site is the better option may be shortsited. Would I rather have condos, apartments, retail, hotels, shopping on the site? Of course. It's taxable and there will be income coming into the city. But getting the Mound site operational is an expense, plus the fact the area has NO amenities to speak of [[restaurants, bondsmen, etc) to support the jail is also a detrement. The cost to make that area work seems to be too much to make a real case for it.
I guess Gilbert will need to find another plot of land for more development. Now only if there was more in the CBD he could find........oh wait. There's a shit ton.
Oh cool, I'm excited to visit "Inmate Alley", everyone's favorite part of the Detroit CBD :) So glad we decided to spend a bunch of money completing something that is running way over budget and has been handled so ineptly. Plus, Wayne County is still handling the project, so I am sure they will complete it in a timely manner and with minimal cost overruns! Hurray! No one needed that part of downtown anywho, am I right???Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
Sometimes when there are two bad options, you just pick the option that does the least harm. I think this was the reasonable and expected outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
I'm ok with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by brizee
Anything on that lot will be better than the parking lot which was there before.
so... can Gilbert still pull his funding for that off-ramp?
That would be an awfully petty thing to do, not only because no one asked him to make any modifications to that off-ramp, but also because of the fact that he's started working on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
Just taking a look at it economically. Estimates are $650M to construct all the facilities at the Mound Rd campus. I get that the current jail is overbudget, but where would the $650M come from to get Mound Rd up and running? That's the problem.
Why would he? The problem still exists because of the casino parking garage, and the cluster ____ it's creating @ the top of the ramp. One thing I will say for Dan, he did step up to the plate, and did the right thing, without anyone holding him to the task.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan
Exactly right because the County has already issued $300 million in bonds for the original structure, more than half of which has been spent. Trying to get $650 million more in funding would be like pulling teeth and topping this whole project out at around $1 billion. That's that much more taxpayer money that doesn't need to be wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1
Property taxes, to which you refer are meaningless for this debate. Should Gilbert get the land, the abatements and credits he'll receive means he won't pay property tax either.
The issue, as stated by many others, is the full economic impact of the justice center [[jails, courts, law enforcement, bail bonds, lawyers etc.) compared to whatever Gilbert envisions as a replacement.
Downtowns and CBD have always been the locus of government offices and functions. Government offices and their economic externalities are the result of and an expression of a regions ascendancy and shouldn't be dismissed when not fashionable.
Frank Murphy, 36th District and the jails kept downtown Detroit afloat with activity and consumers long before Gilbert arrived. Should Gilbertville not live up to expectations, it will be the constants like our justice institutions that will always be there.
If they built the jail on Mound couldn't that be an opportunity to develop that area?
I don't know if its a good idea to piss off your #1 investor.
What's the economic impact of Gilbert spending his money elsewhere?
i still hope they can work something out with Dan.
Detroit has plenty of space to build a jail, but only 1 square mile of downtown.
I appreciate Dan, but don't think we should put all our eggs in one or two baskets. I don't think the current judicial structures are a problem Downtown. I don't see a new jail being one either.
Oh, okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
Quote:
Originally Posted by WXYZ sez...
That's if we move everything, and I don't think I ever suggested moving everything. We have these things called automobiles that are regularly used to transport both goods and humans, and have been fairly reliable in delivering those cargos. I think we can get by with moving the jail NOW, and moving the rest of the infrastructure as it is needed. FMHJ will eventually become outdated, or will be outgrown, and that's when you initiate a project to move it closer to the jail. That makes much more sense to me, especially from a "looking to the future" aspect.
I believe that Gilbert's bid is contingent on getting everything. The site of the jail, plus all the municipal buildings surrounding the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
Plus I'm sure transporting prisioners back and forth from downtown to Mound facility would be costly and an unnecessary safety risk.
Do you think it would endanger the children too, Nancy Grace? Cases where prisoners escape during transport are not very common, so please stop the "OMG MY SAFETY" hyperbole. It's like running around while it's sunny out warning everyone about being struck by lightning.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
I can bet any money Gilbert would be willing to work with the city to get things sorted out. The problem is, Wayne County is not only completely inept, but they also seem dead set on pushing forward with ideas that seem, to me at least, questionable. The jail project has been a huge clusterfudge and if I were the county, I would find a way to recoup as much as possible and get the hell out of that project. Promise you that if they complete the jail, one of two things will happen. Maybe both. Project will cost at least $450M due to overruns. Jail site ends up being moved out of the downtown area within 10 years.