How low can pay go in Detroit?

What's that adage you get what you pay for? How will the city be able to operate efficiently if it pays people this way?

http://www.toomuchonline.org/tmweekly.html

"
In Detroit, a news report related last week, wage cuts have dropped the entry-level clerical worker pay to $17,000 a year. Back in 1970, city clerks started at $7,000, a sum that translates, after inflation adjusting, to over $39,000 today.
Detroit city workers, in effect, have had their real incomes cut in half. And Detroit’s mayor, on top of this cut, now wants these workers to pick up another 20 percent of what their health care premiums are costing the city...."

That's the going wage for a lot of entry level and fast food jobs in the area right now. I know people with advanced degrees getting $10/hr + health insurance [[= $20K/year + benefits).

Rise up, people.

Too bad the City of Detroit isn't recouping the monies pocketed by thug KK, Conyers, and all the appointees and crooked employees, clownsil members who don't pay their taxes on their homes, and are still walking the halls of the City County Building. The losses that Detroit has incurred due to theft, rape and pillaging is enormous but seems to be forgotten. Lawsuits that are paid without any investigation, contracts given out randomly should be totally unacceptable to Detroiters. Maybe Bing should concentrate on that instead of asking the honest employees who go to work each day and give 150% to take the hit. Police and Fire haven't received a raise in years and now are espected to give up some health care...there isn't enough money in the world to pay these people for what the go out and do every day to protect and serve. As long as Detroiters accept this sort of action things will never get better...time to rise up!

Its getting to the point where you are going to need to work two jobs just to keep your head above water. Note that in 1970 most of the benefits you were getting were included as part of your pay. These days, most public employees also have to kick in for their own retirement, medical, and most likely have had thier wages cut back. The lucky few have had them frozen. Some are getting forced days off to help balance the books.

I am sure that I don't need to tell folks that this is at a time when all costs are rising highly due to the devaluing of the dollar. While the official inflation rate remains low, you sure can't tell that by your monthly utilty, energy, food, and medical bills.

A lot of folks who complain about public employee wages don't really look into the fact that most employees are either extremely well educated and are already getting paid less than they would in the private sector. Other public employees are doing hazardous or extremely stressfull jobs such as police, fire, or even ensuring that the water that makes it to your home is clean and safe to drink.

The article cited in that blog or whatever from the Washington Post is interesting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...eiE_print.html

I think this quote says quite a bit:

"That’s how it was for Saundra Williams, who went to work for the city as a typist in the health department in 1968. She retired as a 911 operator in 1998 at age 48, and the city is obligated to pay her $24,000 a year for life.
“It’s great,” said Williams, who now works for the Michigan AFL-CIO. “But it also is not a lot to live on.


Rise up? Whatever.

They have firemen in Las Vegas that make 200,000/ year.

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Originally Posted by 9mile&seneca

They have firemen in Las Vegas that make 200,000/ year.

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I couldn't believe that until I read an online article about their pay.
Including the $43,422 in benefits, the average firefighter received a total compensation package of $172,898. The article was from a few years ago.

This is what happens when politicians get to throw around other peoples money.

regardless. Atleast they have jobs. I'm unaware of what a clerical worker does. Is this a skilled position? semi-skilled?

Why would a low-cost area like Vegas need to pay firefighters 200k? Hell, why even 100k?

When there are periods of economic prosperity, politicians and beuarocrats sit down with a bottle of "ought" and get loaded. This ought to be this way. this ought to be that way. An example of this kind of thing here in Ga. is the HOPE scholarship. It is funded by the state lottery. Just as soon as it was passed and implemented, all state universities and colleges began to raise tuition and fees every year. Because they had this huge pool of free money to drain. Now, ten years late,r one could not go to a state college without it unless one was already wealthy. And now, guess what? The lottery isn't even bringing in enough money to satisfy them so they are cutting all but the straight A students[[which, in MHOshould have been the case all along).

Saundra Williams does not work for the Metro Detroit AFL CIO, she is the president of the Metro. I'd like to invite you all to live on $24,000 a year. It's a reasonable pension, I'm not sure but I believe she was bought out of her job, that's why she left so young. What's the problem? Are we all supposed to die when we leave our jobs? Bullshit bullshit bullshit. She worked for it, she continues to work [[and do a fine job, btw), it's how it's supposed to be.

As for the firefighters, I hope a cut-rate part time fireman comes to your house rjk. You want cheap you'll get cheap.

Really, what is wrong with you people?

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Really, what is wrong with you people?

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Eh, pot, meet kettle.

Some of us are interested why some non-managerial "public servants" are making 3-4 times median salaries. That doesn't strike you as odd?

Again, why are Las Vegas firefighters making many multiples of the area median income? They need to be rich to do their job? They wouldn't or couldn't do a good job if they were earning Regular Joe salaries?

And why are Detroit employees retiring with full pensions for life in their 40's? Why are those pensions untaxed, and why are they allowed to take another govt. position and keep their full, untaxed pension?

These seem like reasonable questions to me.

No, it does not strike me as odd. Have you ever talked to a firefighter, have you ever considered what their job entails? I don't believe the $200,000 figure, I'm sure that's a rough, high end, oldest seniority figure that is still exaggerated, but let's just say it's true. The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door. I'll send a nice condolence letter to your wife after. She's going to need that money since she'll be the only breadwinner left.

Regular Joe salaries. Un. Fucking. Believable.

The Metro Detroit AFL CIO is not another government position. Saundra Williams is not getting rich on her salary from the Metro.

While we're talking salaries, can you justify any of these?
http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/

Most city employees such as police and fire do have people in their 40's retire, but they also have put in 25 to 30 years of service. Are they suppose to work 40 years, 50 years? What does age have to do with retiring in the first place? And believe me it is tough to live on 24,000 dollars a year. This comes from one who knows!

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

No, it does not strike me as odd.

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Well then I guess you're either a public employee yourself or unemployed/retired.

Obviously "public service" is not supposed to be an opportunity to rape the taxpayer. If firefighters are making 200k in an area where the median salary is 40k, something is seriously unsustainable.

In Detroit, within a decade or so, virtually the entire budget will be eaten up by pensions to long-retired folks. That's the definition of dysfunctional.

What's the point of government? Is is a jobs program, or is there supposed to be some sort of public benefit? If the entire budget is going to folks that aren't even working, obviously something is seriously unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door. I'll send a nice condolence letter to your wife after. She's going to need that money since she'll be the only breadwinner left.

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This is silly nonsense. Firefighters hardly have the most dangerous jobs.

Truck drivers and fisherman, for example, have far, far higher on-the-job injury and death rates than firefighers. I guess truck drivers and fishermen should all be pulling million dollar salaries, so all our shipped products and seafood can quintuple in price.

If you're talking public service jobs, garbagemen should all be making a million dollars. Far, far more dangerous than firefighers.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

The Metro Detroit AFL CIO is not another government position. Saundra Williams is not getting rich on her salary from the Metro.

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No, but many folks are double-dipping government jobs.

And what's she making if she isn't "getting rich"? Why doesn't she give up her pension #1, given that Detroit is flat broke, and the folks paying her pension are much poorer than her?

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

While we're talking salaries, can you justify any of these?
http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/

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Hell, yeah. I don't see a problem.

Private companies can pay whatever they want. None of your damn business.

If you don't like it, then don't invest or otherwise do business with these entities.

Stupid, mean days we're in.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Stupid, mean days we're in.

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Couldn't agree more.

If you think that public servants "deserve" high salaries, then you also agree that Detroit taxpayers "deserve" much higher taxes than they currently pay. Simple as that.

The current situation in Detroit is completely unsustainable. You would need to hike the local income and business taxes to just crazy levels to cover existing [[to say nothing of future) obligations.

I have no problem with good municipal salaries. But you better have a robust local tax base, or it's nothing more than a ponzi scheme.

Detroit is broke, and so [[IMO) it's only reasonable that municpal employees and pensioners have sacrifice along with everyone else.

That's not true at all. There was a piece just recently about how overstaffed the city is. Get rid of the lame, incompetent employees [[who mostly likely have the job via nepotism anyway) and pay the good, productive employees what they deserve.

I, for one, am fed up with jobs where I have to carry some jerkoff's lame ass.

Firefighters in Detroit have not received a raise in years, they don't make lots of money. They don't get their benefits for free. Anyone on here who feels that "firefighters hardly have the most dangerous jobs" needs to take a cold hard look at the amount of Detroit Firefighters injured in the line of duty in the past year or so in Detroit. The firefighters who were injured back in October when the wall came tumbling down on top of them are still not working. They will probably never return. One is paralyzed from the chest down. Walt Harris was murdered at a fire due to arson. The sarcasm I read in one person's remarks makes me want to vomit.

"The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door. I'll send a nice condolence letter to your wife after."...is the best response yet.

Watch this video and tell me it's not a dangerous job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI261NDLWlM

What kind of person insults firefighters? Especially during a week when 9/11 is on everyone's minds? I'm so sick and tired of the attacks on public employees.

Have we forgotten who our heroes are? Firefighters deserve $200,000, rushing into fiery buildings that are liable to collapse. I hope they aren't losing any sleep over bills the night before they run to my house.

How about the 400 wealthiest Americans who make as much as the lower 50% of the country? I think they are the ones making too much money. The super rich are not spending, their money is not "trickling down", and we are all getting screwed. Worse, we are allowing them to divide us. Public sector workers are not to blame. We all deserve wages that can support a family.

We don't need a pay cut for public workers. We need a pay raise for private sector workers and more jobs for all of us too. There are many things that need to be done: if only we could pay for them. How about doubling the number of teacher's at DPS so there aren't 60 kids in a class? We could also have the city lighting dept hire more than 6 employees [[lets just see 20....please, really). It simple, it takes people working to fix problems. The top has taken too much. It is choking our economy.

"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without demand. It never did and it never will."
---Frederick Douglas

Firefighters in the west get paid well because of the wildfire situation. And if you've ever seen a wildfire, you'd know that they deserve every penny.

Funny nobody's mentioning these CEO's making billions such as Alan Mullaly at Ford, and bragging about he deserves it. He HELPED turn Ford around he didn't do it by himself, he had plenty of help that won't be compensated nearly as well. What a freakin joke this country is becoming.

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Originally Posted by Red Devil

Firefighters in the west get paid well because of the wildfire situation. And if you've ever seen a wildfire, you'd know that they deserve every penny.

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No, in the communities outside of Clark County in LV the pay for fireman drops considerably.

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Originally Posted by maxx

last week, wage cuts have dropped the entry-level clerical worker pay to $17,000 a year. Back in 1970, city clerks started at $7,000, a sum that translates, after inflation adjusting, to over $39,000 today.

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In June 1961 with my newly minted B.S. degree in Civil Engineering, i went to work for the City of Detroit as a "Junior Civil Engineer" for the princely sum of $5,948.80 a year, yet they were giving entry level clerks $7,000 in 1970?.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

I don't believe the $200,000 figure, I'm sure that's a rough, high end, oldest seniority figure that is still exaggerated, but let's just say it's true. The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door./

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Look it up on the internet and don't just look at their base pay. Around half of the $200,000 comes from overtime pay. Not surprisingly this fire department has a huge amount of fireman calling in sick even compared to other fire departments. I think they call that working the system.

I'm curious as to how you feel about inflated pensions. Do you think it's alright for public employees to work a lot of overtime and save up their sick days/vacation days to build up their pay in the final years prior to their retirement?

And actually the fire/ems in my community is fantastic. I know a few of them and they don't make anywhere near $200,000 nor should they.

It's class war.

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Originally Posted by English

What kind of person insults firefighters? Especially during a week when 9/11 is on everyone's minds? I'm so sick and tired of the attacks on public employees.

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Who insulted firefighers?

Someone claimed that firefighers have very dangerous jobs. According to federal BLS workforce death/injury rankings by occupation, that claim, at least on a relative basis, is false.

Some of the most dangerous jobs include construction, fisheries, shipping and packaging and sanitation. Firefighting is "middle of the pack" in terms of injury.

And obviously firefighers are respected by most folks. They generally do a great job, and certainly deserve respect and decent compensation.

But that doesn't mean that the public loses the right to examine salaries and benefits.

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Originally Posted by socks_mahoney

Have we forgotten who our heroes are? Firefighters deserve $200,000, rushing into fiery buildings that are liable to collapse. I hope they aren't losing any sleep over bills the night before they run to my house.

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Well that's fine, but keep in mind that 200k municipal salaries would require massive tax increases.

Perhaps enough people feel like you, and don't mind having huge increases in their taxes. I suspect this isn't the case, and folks would prefer to not have 70% of their meager earnings going to 200k rank-and-file municipal salaries.

I would prefer to keep a little of my salary, to maybe afford a home and college for my children. I guess to some this means I hate municipal employees...

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

It's class war.

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Working class versus milking class.

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Originally Posted by rjk

No, in the communities outside of Clark County in LV the pay for fireman drops considerably.

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3/4 of the state lives in Clark County. As long as the wealthy continue to shell out millions to live on the side of brush covered hills, firefighters will be able to command high salaries. I'm sure the insurance industry and in Clark county, gaming, influence the firefighter union's ability to bargain. Recall the MGM Grand fire a few years back.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

It's class war.

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Only if we're in the streets. As long as we're behind a screen its just hot air. I guess its time to get up.

WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP

Bham1982 could you please explain how a garbagemans job is more dangerous then a fire fighter? I would like to see you run into a burning building as fire fighters and police officers did in New York. As the old saying goes they run in while your running out to save your ass, but they put theirs on the line everyday. If you think its so easy why don't you try becoming one. An oh if your house catches on fire dont bother calling the fire department put it out yourself with your garden hose.

Someone thinks that the fact that there are more retirees than current employees means the system is dysfunctional. No, it just means that the City has been laying off large numbers of people for the past 8 years. Theoretically, the City could outsource/privatize everything and then there would be no employees, only retirees. So this is irrelevant.

Someone buys the argument that there are still far too many City employees [[as compared to other cities). This ignores any comparison of the services the City provides [[or tries to provide) compared to those cities. It ignores the fact that Detroit does for itself what the county government would do in a lot of other places. Sure, there may be more employees than we can afford, but that is different than saying the number of employees in inflated [[implying featherbedding). The City needs to stop providing some services. It shouldn't outsource or privatize them. It should stop providing them all together. So, which services do we stop?

Someone asserts with authority that in the coming decade the entire City budget will be going to pay retirees. Really? The City's budget is over 3 billion dollars. Currently, in the proposed budget that anyone can find online, the City would be spending $1,167,344,441 in wages and benefits. Those benefits include current employee and retiree healthcare. They include pension contributions for current employees. They include payments to the unfunded accrued liabilities for the pension funds. They do not include any payments to retirees as that money comes from the funds themselves.

So the City expects to allocate 37% of its budget to wages, benefits, and pension costs. I can't imagine how anyone can believe that in 10 years that percentage will rise to 100%. BTW, since the City is not a manufacturer producing goods, you should expect a large percentage of its costs to be people costs. 37% might actually be too low. It might actually be that the City is applying too much of its budget to debt payments for bonds it sold so it could build things. It might be that the City is applying too much of its budget [[over $200 million) to contracts. There might be a lot of opportunities in addition to employee concessions that we should look at.

And if pensions are a Ponzi scheme then so is Wall Street, and therefore so are 401ks

if we're going to argue one position or the other, at least let's do it with accurate information and something approaching a thorough analysis.

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Originally Posted by hhockey

Bham1982 could you please explain how a garbagemans job is more dangerous then a fire fighter? I would like to see you run into a burning building as fire fighters and police officers did in New York. As the old saying goes they run in while your running out to save your ass, but they put theirs on the line everyday. If you think its so easy why don't you try becoming one. An oh if your house catches on fire dont bother calling the fire department put it out yourself with your garden hose.

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Let me put it in perspective for you... as it seems many have lost it. As former Marine...a lot of people tend to think my job was pretty dangerous. admittedly the there were times it was. however, as the saying goes, the job was 1000s of hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of sheer terror. I believe the stats Bham is citing reflect that. Garbage men, by virtue of being on the roads every day and doing manual labor in less than ideal conditions are likely hurt at a higher rate than a firefighter who may only respond to a truly dangerous/life threating situation occasionally. And let's also not lose the fact that for someone who ISNT a firefighter....a house fire is a scary thing, but to a firefighter, it's what they train to deal with. So let's not pretend that every DFD member is volunteering for suicide mission every time they go in and put out a fire.

But, that said.. .and back to Bhams point to which no one has responded.... if firefighting and firefighters are underpaid and/or deserve 35-40 years of tax free pensions---well then raise taxes in Detroit [[or where ever) and pay them. Until that happens, it's a question of simple budgetary math.

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Bham1982:Some of the most dangerous jobs include construction, fisheries, shipping and packaging and sanitation. Firefighting is "middle of the pack" in terms of injury

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If you are counting injuries to determine how dangerous a job is, it may be that a lot of the injuries from the jobs you mentioned could have been prevented if OSHA rules had been followed.

If firefighters don't sustain as many injuries as construction workers, perhaps they are more careful and better equipped with protective gear. Fire fighters walk into fires hotter than most ovens and producing noxious gases not to mention the danger of crumbling walls and floors. That should make their work one of the most dangerous . If you just count injuries per year, then nuclear plant work is very safe except when the plant is in meltdown like the ones in Japan.

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Originally Posted by maxx

If you are counting injuries to determine how dangerous a job is, it may be that a lot of the injuries from the jobs you mentioned could have been prevented if OSHA rules had been followed.

If firefighters don't sustain as many injuries as construction workers, perhaps they are more careful and better equipped with protective gear. Fire fighters walk into fires hotter than most ovens and producing noxious gases not to mention the danger of crumbling walls and floors. That should make their work one of the most dangerous . If you just count injuries per year, then nuclear plant work is very safe except when the plant is in meltdown like the ones in Japan.

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exactly my point. so, should the money be spent on training and equipment or 6 figure salary? How about hazard pay for the days they ACTUALLY go to a fire and a reduced rate for the week they sat at the station watching the newbies wash the trucks? I got hazard pay when in theater or tasked to high threat locations....but that was only while I was there, why not the same for firefighters?

How DARE those greedy firefighters, police and teachers make all that money. Private sector workers have lost a lot of union representation, yes, that's true. Sure, in real terms, they haven't had a raise since 1970. Sure, all that's true. But that's because the very RICH people who OWN the country needed their money. And so they took it. And now you GREEDY public servants want a decent standard of living? Don't you understand? Now the rich need your money TOO. So cough it up and stop fighting it. Remember, your job, as American workers, is to fear and mistrust EACH OTHER. Pay no attention to that giant sucking sound. We, the super-rich of America aren't parasites. We're WEALTH CREATORS. We reach into your pocket and create wealth by making you poorer. But don't dwell on it. Remember, private sector workers resent public sector workers. Keep repeating it. And then we, the rich, will be able to have everybody's money all at once.

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Originally Posted by Locke09

Someone thinks that the fact that there are more retirees than current employees means the system is dysfunctional. No, it just means that the City has been laying off large numbers of people for the past 8 years. Theoretically, the City could outsource/privatize everything and then there would be no employees, only retirees. So this is irrelevant.

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The outsourcing of jobs has nothing to do with the discussion. The issue is the imbalance between workers and retirees. It has nothing to do with whether workers are contractors or civil service.

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Originally Posted by Locke09

Someone buys the argument that there are still far too many City employees [[as compared to other cities).

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I never argued this, but, again, it seems irrevelent. Whether there are too many or too few is besides the point. The issue is whether revenues can support staffing levels.

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Originally Posted by Locke09

Someone asserts with authority that in the coming decade the entire City budget will be going to pay retirees. Really? The City's budget is over 3 billion dollars. Currently, in the proposed budget that anyone can find online, the City would be spending $1,167,344,441 in wages and benefits. Those benefits include current employee and retiree healthcare. They include pension contributions for current employees. They include payments to the unfunded accrued liabilities for the pension funds.

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This is false. The current general fund is roughly two-thirds wages and benefits [[ALL wages and benefits, employee and contract).

At current growth levels extrapolated on an annual basis, the general fund would be 100% wages and benefits within 4-5 years.

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Originally Posted by Locke09

They do not include any payments to retirees as that money comes from the funds themselves.

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This too is false. The funds themselves don't cover shortfalls, and were never designed to do so.

And the city contributes to these funds, and obviously has to increase contributions relative to the losses incurred by the investment performance.

In recent years, investment performance has been dismal for both city funds. The funds have done all sorts of wacky things, from wildly overpaying and lavishly renovating downtown real estate to buying swampland in Florida.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

How DARE those greedy firefighters, police and teachers make all that money.

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It has nothing to do with these silly class warfare memes that everyone is throwing around in this thread.

The issue is that Detroit [[and other cities) can't balance their budgets. Obviously you have to raise revenues or cut expenses.

If your response is to go ahead and increase expenses, then obviously you need massive tax increases. It isn't anti-worker or anti-union to question massive tax increases when taxpayers are much worse off.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

How DARE those greedy firefighters, police and teachers make all that money. Private sector workers have lost a lot of union representation, yes, that's true. Sure, in real terms, they haven't had a raise since 1970. Sure, all that's true. But that's because the very RICH people who OWN the country needed their money. And so they took it. And now you GREEDY public servants want a decent standard of living? Don't you understand? Now the rich need your money TOO. So cough it up and stop fighting it. Remember, your job, as American workers, is to fear and mistrust EACH OTHER. Pay no attention to that giant sucking sound. We, the super-rich of America aren't parasites. We're WEALTH CREATORS. We reach into your pocket and create wealth by making you poorer. But don't dwell on it. Remember, private sector workers resent public sector workers. Keep repeating it. And then we, the rich, will be able to have everybody's money all at once.

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Yes, it's all wall street fat cats keeping those salaries down. There is nothing stopping the residents of Detroit from taxing themselves more to give a raise to firefighters.

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Originally Posted by oldredfordette

... The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door. I'll send a nice condolence letter to your wife after. She's going to need that money since she'll be the only breadwinner left.

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Plus try doing all that at 100+° temperatures.

Jay Gould said

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I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half.

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There is no shortage of employment for traitors.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Jay Gould saidThere is no shortage of employment for traitors.

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well, again, if we're talking rail road workers you'd have a point. Here we're talking about municipal employees. IF you feel their pay is unfairly low, then don't vote down the millage increase to pay the men more money.

as an aside, I wonder if it would help if all these underpaid detroit firefighters and other oppressed city workers actually lived in Detroit? hmmm

funny how a topic about how much us Jack and Joe taxpayers are paying into salaries and benefits for public employees gets twisted into unrelated garbage about class warfare [[great quote Jimaz, totally appropriate) and the merits of being a firefighter.

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Originally Posted by bartock

funny how a topic about how much us Jack and Joe taxpayers are paying into salaries and benefits for public employees gets twisted into unrelated garbage about class warfare [[great quote Jimaz, totally appropriate) and the merits of being a firefighter.

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well, because jack and jill taxpayer apparently don't get a say in how much any municipal employee gets paid. ever. If they have the temerity to ask why or raise an objection they are shouted down with irrelevant 9/11 jingo-ism and a healthy side order of class war demagoguery as a response.

Bham 1982,

Various people argued various things. I never attributed all arguments to you.

At any rate,

The ratio of employees to retirees is irrelevant. If you can't follow the logic of the outsourcing statement I made to show that it is irrelevant, oh well.

I specifically said the issue is whether we can support existing services not that there is an unreasonable number of employees for the services we provide. So you are just basically repeating my argument.

You can't just isolate the general fund, since it is primarily police, fire and office workers. As I said, the non-manufacturing segment of the city who provide services mostly requiring people and therefore justifying the ratio of salaries and benefits to everything else. Take the whole budget in perspective and the numbers are just as I report them.

I have more than once said on various threads that the City makes up for losses. That is what the unfunded accrued liabilities number that I already said was included in benefits is.

In short, you said nothing to refute anything that I said.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

It isn't anti-worker or anti-union to question massive tax increases when taxpayers are much worse off.

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Which taxpayers are worse off?????????? Private sector ones or public sector ones???? It seems to me that everyone who is complaining about public worker pay & pensions either aren't aware or choose to be unaware that public employees are taxpayers too. Please get off your soapbox of the taxpayers are suffering due to high public employee pay & pensions. That argument has no weight. Everyone is a taxpayer.

From where I'm standing, I've got a good look around and there is plenty of economic misery to go around. There are plenty of people who aren't making a decent wage regardless if they're public or private sector. Sock-mahoney is spot on. We need to raise the private sector pay, not lower public sector pay.

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Originally Posted by hhockey

And believe me it is tough to live on 24,000 dollars a year.

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I could live on $24k a year quite comfortably, IF THIS WAS 1971!!

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Originally Posted by bailey

well, because jack and jill taxpayer apparently don't get a say in how much any municipal employee gets paid. ever. If they have the temerity to ask why or raise an objection they are shouted down with irrelevant 9/11 jingo-ism and a healthy side order of class war demagoguery as a response.

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Ding!! [[...and thanks for the Jack and Jill correction).