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Okay okay, putting our differences aside. What’s your interest in Detroit? If you say you’re not American or from here. Please don’t interpret that as an affront because there’s no malfeasance behind it. I’m just curious. And I somewhat agree with your statement about lack of civility. We can quickly get bellicose in our discussions instead of trading reasonable points and agreeing to disagree. I’m very guilty of that. At least I’m willing to own it. Very big of me, I know :)
Hardly a “mic drop” moment. I am amused though that a non-American who says he’s not even from here or doesn’t live here wanted to attack a natural-born citizen’s arguments on what’s going on in a country he only reads about on the internet. Classic, just classic. That’d be like me saying you know what’s wrong with the European Union? No, please don’t tell me, because [[A) you’ve never lived there, [[B) weren’t born there, [[C) and unless you currently live there and have local knowledge of the happenings? your opinion is worthless.
Appreciate your understanding. Indeed it wasn’t my finest hour. A little too much hubris perhaps and politics. We’re better off without that on an architecture forum for goodness sakes. I’d hit the undo button on the initial post that sparked all of it in a heartbeat. Oy ve.
I see some activity on the site
It won't amount to much though....
https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2019/08/07/hudsons-detroit-tallest-building/1943037001/
- The office, retail, and residential mixed-use project on the Monroe Block is undergoing design revisions. Actual construction, which was to have been underway by now, is scheduled to start in early 2020.
I think they are moving the barriers back a little so you can walk on the sidewalk around the site. It was kind of annoying.
There was activity at this site today. When I drove by some of the barriers were gone. Maybe they are moving the barriers again?
It looked like they were putting up new barriers.
They're moving the barriers so they're no longer blocking the sidewalk. I'm not quite sure why they ever blocked the sidewalk to begin with, considering the goals of Gilbert to have a vibrant, functioning downtown.
Before moving barriers [[3-15-2019):
Attachment 37762
After moving barriers[[9-10-2019):
Attachment 38916
What is going on with the landscaping on Monroe St.?
I would think the city would take better care of it than that [[all of the brown patches).
^ I completely agree, it's a needlessly jarring sight. All they have to do is plant trees or something but it's just left barren and it's been like that for years, so ugly. Maybe they're planning to get rid of the medium soon?
Attachment 39016
We've got activity. Looks like they are breaking up the parking lot.
They dug five holes and have since filled all five back up with dirt and debris. I'm not sure why.
Soil testing?
I wonder if something important happened to cause some activity? Is this something they would have done if this project as completely paused or not? [[Assuming they are soil testing)
Frankly, I wish they would scrap the project [[ likely will happen anyway ), and concentrate their time and resources and build a great project on the Hudsons site, as planned..
Yup.... we don't want to be like San Francisco and have our own "leaning tower".... :[[
https://www.businessinsider.com/is-m...sinking-2017-9
What's taking so long! Where is the development Gilbert??
This might be a reason why they're picking up pace on this project again. Office rent in the city has dramatically risen just since last year alone.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/voices...ildings-report
I would assume that they moved people around just to make 1 large RenCen space more marketable...
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/voices...ildings-report
I would doubt anything comes of this as proposed. Taubman said in the 90's, residents lead to retail. Perhaps some of that comes to fruition in the D.
No amount of marketing will lead to robust residential. High Rises in particular
Any updates on the project, from somebody on the inside
Im afraid we will be asking this same question a year from now. Just hoping Hudsons site starts on something visible from ground level within a year and that it has an idea what exactly they are building and its purpose. It was mentioned earlier here that city office and residential demand and needs are at a premium. Bedrock has done incredible things but thats a marketing hype Bedrock has been using for several years now to hopefully encourage new investors and tennants. Reality is its no where near that..The proof is in the putting.. Progress presently downtown is good, but not at a break neck pace. These major projects are progressing very slowly or none at all. Completing the Book Tower will be a great accomplishment and they seem to be-on point there. Very slow development like we are experiencing on the other big projects simply doesn’t happen in a demanding market as developers construct as fast as they possibly can to meet real demands. Downtown is actually doing very nicely, and we should all be very proud of it, and there’s certainly good solid new development coming in, but I really feel we’re at a ratio now that our needs are being met by existing facilities, renovations, and some smaller new development. Large new commercial tenants and hotel conglomerates are not lining up to get into downtown presently,, thats why Hudsons is crawling, and Monroe is completely stalled.
The City is still a very difficult place to do business and developments. It has gotten much better no question, but “getting better” is still well short of being good.
Bedrock has the past experience, money, and connections to get things accomplished. But for developers not familiar with the process, it is often too complicated to get the necessary permit approvals. Adding onto the onion, the city has historically been both very corrupt and incompetent. Thus when a developer today runs into red tape, an
unfamiliar developer likely doesn’t know if they are just at a bureaucratic stand still, or if they need to pay someone off. It is more often the former, but given the city’s past, it is easy to see why an unfamiliar developer might think it is the latter.
Anyway, all of that makes it complicated for new developers to join Bedrock and crew in the city. Without enough financial backing and someone to guide you through the process, the maze can be overwhelming.
This will obviously be built eventually. Quicken and the family of companies will need the space with their absurdly high growth and complex mixed use projects do not just happen right away as some are saying.
I think people forget how much Bedrock is juggling right now. Countless major renovations and new construction. Nobody but the most skilled and competent development company could pull this sort of stuff off we're very lucky to have them as most other cities would kill for it.
Maybe not hundreds? But I swear, where I live in Austin, not a day goes by where some new tower isn’t announced. Wish I could spread the love and send some development that way to Michigan!! I’m worried what next year’s recession will do to Detroits’s development.... :[[
When folks have said that nothing is happening at the Hudson's site, I have combated that falsehood.
To say that nothing is happening at the Monroe blocks site is an accurate statement.
I don't buy that it has anything to do with One Campus Martius or the Hudson's site. I think it has everything to do with market conditions, demand, and financing.
Gilbert\Bedrock still has plenty of credibility with what they have renovated and built. If they Hudson's site is stalled for whatever reason I hope they will just be honest.
For me the big focus right now is the Hudson's site. I hope that it gets finished. All the evidence at the Hudson's site suggests they are fully committed. Hopefully it will add onto the snowball and help build momentum toward the Monroe Blocks.
Although, realistically, a recession is coming and could delay some of the skyward progress beyond the Hudson's site.
Thanks for getting my point, that being there are numerous developers like Bedrock working on large scale projects in most cities. So there's no reason for them to trade that for Detroit's situations.
To your point about a new tower being announced practically daily, same goes for Atlanta, Nashville, Seattle, Chicago, etc.
I don't think so. Setting aside New York, Chicago, Bay Area, Boston, Seattle or LA, maybe Philly since those are the only cities that get similar urban friendly large scale projects. Still all of them would very much want a Bedrock.
Most cities have development companies who's only goal is to please shareholders and not carry out a vision that's better for society in the long run. I cant think of a single developer that's doing exactly what Bedrock is and delivering the same quality.Quote:
Most cities don't need only one developmemt company because they have tens, if not hundreds of Bedrocks / Quickens / Gilberts working on various projects of this scale right now
No US city has hundreds of hometown billionaire developers... That's just false. New York City has a bit over a hundred Billionaires in total.
Your point is entirely unrelated to what I said. There is no single developer in Austin doing as much as Bedrock is in Detroit compare apples to apples not oranges. They would kill to have a Bedrock all to themselves. Detroit also has numerous developers and investors at this point.
It sounds like you just dont want to admit that Bedrock is unique when they obviously are.
That's a good thing.
In fact, it's actually a lot more precarious to have one man/developer alone pursuing projects like the Hudson site or Monroe Block [[what if Bedrock weny belly up, or Dan Gilbert suddenly died and his empire was acquired by a NYC-based venture capital firm?).
So why would Austin or most other cities "kill for that?"
With exception to that 1 involved in the project on the site of the Hammer-and-Nail building in Midtown, please name the other developers that are working on high rises in Detroit.Quote:
Detroit also has numerous developers and investors at this point.
Assuming you’re talking about The Mid, there’s...
TCF Bank
The Ilitches are working on the Eddystone currently
The Park Avenue Building reno is still planned
Ford with MCS
Albert Kahn Building and Chroma in New Center
There’s a few others I can’t think of off the top of my head, and several potential high rises to be officially announced in the next couple years [[Opera House tower, potential high rise on the Joe Louis site)
And there’s other huge projects underway that aren’t high rises like Gordie Howe International Bridge.
Why are you changing goal posts to high-rises? I said developers and investors. There's a lot going on and a lot of people involved.
The point is Bedrock is an exceptional developer that any city would be drooling over themselves to have, period. Considering the cult Detroit-focused culture of the conglomerate's leadership group they're not going anywhere any time soon.
If you disagree that's fine. But I'd rather this off topic argument not go on for any longer and obviously neither of us are changing our views.
Also Roxbury Group with the formerly West Elm hotel and Lee Plaza. They were also the ones who did Hammer and Nail and the Whitney Building so maybe they dont count...
Lafayette West, which seems to be in limbo right now though. I also saw a new render of Brush+Watson on the architect's Instagram and it shows they've added a small high rise to the project.
Hey, nice find on the brush + Watson project. Looks good! Visited the architect’s instagram and saw the new renderings.
Other successful cities like Austin, Seattle, Atlanta and so on don’t need a savior like Bedrock to resurrect them from the dead. Detroit still needs more players. While it’s true bedrock isn’t the only developer in town...without them?? Detroit’s development would be seriously stunted. You wouldn’t be seeing many if not ANY new high rises. And obviously skyscrapers aren’t the only form of development but nevertheless, they are a good sign that a city is doing well economically. Hopefully Detroit can get some new hotels built. And I’m not talking boutique. Lol. The Hudson’s is definitely a landmark project and let’s hope they land a big chain so this project can be the catalyst for more to come. I think the Monroe project will eventually happen. But with the recession around the corner I have my doubts if or when it’ll happen. It’d be sad to see it scrapped as that is greatly needed in downtown Detroit.
According to user "Michigan48" from skyscraperpage.com, He went by the site the other day and noticed a sign that said Neuman Smith/Bedrock is attempting over a Zoom meeting on the 23rd to change the zoning to allow for a 535' tower that is 95' wide with 15 loading docks as opposed to the 450' tall tower that is 60' wide and with 6 loading docks. It also said the structure would bee about 946,000 square feet. This is interesting because it means Bedrock is still thinking the tower could be as large as originally proposed. To me that either means they somehow secured an anchor tenant or they think Quicken takes up enough space to built the tower at its original scale.
user "DetroitSportsFan" also
Found this on the board of zoning appeal’s website.
https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitm...%2C%202020.pdf
To be clear, this isn't a change in the height of the office tower, rather the official request for a variance from what would be allowed by-right at the site. It's still being proposed around the original 536' we saw it last proposed at.
Anyway, nice find. I'm not really surprised. I'd think that it'd be office space that will rebound first before things like hotels. And the governor was just talking about, today, changing regulations that allow for more spacious offices. So the trend of increasing smaller workspaces has been completely turned on its head for the forseeable future.
One thing to think about is that Gilbert's companies didn't have a lot of space to begin with, with employees crammed into the floor plans of buildings in open-office designs. In a post-COVID world they may need more space for employees.
Not to be a debbie downer, but some big time tech companies are having their employees stay home basically forever [[Twitter). This seems to be the "cool" thing to do to keep young employees happy. Quicken wants that type of talent. I'm in a wait and see approach, but still fairly strongly feel office demand downtown is going to take a significant hit from this.
Nonetheless, unexpected good news about the Monroe Block there. Would love to be proven wrong.
Wasn't Duggan teasing a big office relocation to the city awhile ago?
You guys think this might have something to do with that? I mean what other building this deep in the planning process would put a roof under such a thing?
One other aspect to keep in mind:
If a worker never has to report to the office, then theoretically it doesn’t matter where they live. As long as they have an Internet connection, they could live in Hawaii and still “work” in One Campus Martius.
And while that may not matter to a business itself [[provided the worker can get the job done), it does matter to Bedrock/Gilbert. Given the residential and first floor commercial space they own, Bedrock’s is at an advantage to have people living, eating, and reporting to the office in Downtown Detroit. Even if it is only for a day a week, having that report to the office setup keeps workers tethered to downtown, which Gilbert obviously wants.
If the 535’ height holds, this tower would become Detroit’s 5th tallest.
1- RenCen [[727’) 2- Hudson’s [[680’). 3-Ally [[619’). 4- Penobscot [[565’). 5- Monroe Tower [[535’)
If we’re counting antennas, the Marriott at the RenCen is 755’ and the Penobscot is still the second tallest in Michigan.
Very happy that it seems this didn't get a height reduction unlike Hudsons. This height is very appropriate and needed in the center of the city.
User "Michigan48" from skyscraperpage.com was saying that he tuned in a little late, He also said that the meeting some of the big take were that Bedrock only wants to build 6 loading docks but 12-15 were required at a minimum for the site, which was approved. Also, they basically said that the purpose for doing this meeting now would be to make sure they were shovel ready when tenants are signed on. Apparently, this process has been ongoing since March, probably meaning that the design for phase 1 was finalized around that time. To be honest, I don't care how many loading docks that gonna be at the site and the Monroe Block renderings is great the way it is,no need for big changes. I just wanna know is that when's construction is finally gonna to kick off?
I have a feeling construction won’t start until Hudson’s is well underway or close to being wrapped up which at the rate they’re going could be 4-5 years. That’s just an opinion and I hope a wrong one at that. Bedrock is just now realizing how hard it is to build these things. To their credit at least they’re trying. Once one of these projects goes up in Detroit it’ll be a game changer. All they need is a spark. Let’s not forget about the Chemical Bank HQ and that new 16 story building announced in Greektown came out of nowhere.
Attachment 40610
Attachment 40611
Movement on site this week. Related to the Hudson site, or something more?
Looked like they were digging trenches, perhaps for utility work.
Neat! The window near my desk at work has a great view of this site. However, I haven't been there since mid-March...
anyone know whats going on there
Looked like they were digging trenches, perhaps for utility work.
Although there has been some concern whether or not this gets built, a glimmer of hope may be that the architecture firm SHL has been reposting renderings from the project the last two days with language to suggest it is still a go.
There was a triple wide construction trailer sitting on the site for the past two years. Today they took two out of three of the sections away.
Now that Gilbert's net worth is at $34 billion after his Rock IPO... does he still need financing for this project? Or would he just write them a check?
I figured as much. But banks like to put in stipulations... so much pre-leased, etc. He no longer HAS to "jump thru their hoops", so to speak. I wonder if him now being among the über-rich, if he still has to follow the same rules borrowing their money? Or if there is less risk involved for the banks lending him money, do the same rules apply? :confused:
Maybe TCF could finance it, that would be great. All that business being done entirely in Detroit.
Glad I got my house mortgage thru Gilbert's Rock Financial back in 1990. Back then his whole operations fit into about 10,000 sq. ft. on the 2nd floor of the Bingham Center Building next door to where I used to work at 13 Mile & Telegraph. He's come a long way! :)
Attachment 40715
In addition to the ongoing utility work, they are moving dirt around near the lot line.
Attachment 40738Attachment 40739Attachment 40740
Looks like they are replanting grass and perhaps opening the site back up :[[??
lol a random real estate agent from Farmington Hills and a UofM college professor. Both have absolutely nothing to do with downtown commercial development.
Wow such heavy hitters weighing in. :rolleyes:
Like I said, all the same armchair theories we've been hearing since for like 6 months. Freep clearly fished for whatever joe schmo who had an opinion to throw into this pointless piece.
So about a week ago, we all got a bit excited to see Schmidt Hammer Lassen start posting renderings on their Instagram.. we thought it might mean a continuation as planned was near. I’ve worked in planning and design, but not architecture so I don’t know if this theory could be true, but is it possible that now that the project has been abandoned that the architect owns the drawings and can now make them public on their own? :’[[
The project hasn't been abandoned... they just got variances for the height and loading docks. WTF
The architect has had renders up since the very beginning, these aren't new. Yall are crazy, jesus.
Bedrock stated their reason for getting the variances approved now was so they can be ready to break ground as soon as they have a tenant signed. This project definitely isn’t canceled/dead, but it also isn’t breaking ground anytime soon. Especially with covid
Yes, but also it's pretty sure Quicken plans to occupy much of the space.
Um.... no.... no one here is crazy... I've been posting here for almost longer than anyone. People just find articles, and repost them here on DYES, often without prejudice. And then we discuss them with a wide range of opinions as to what the articles actually mean. That's the way it's always been done here. You, in your 4 months here, need to not shoot the messenger.
Oh Lord. I didn't shoot the messenger. I was referring to the person who claimed the project was "abandoned" which is very much a crazy thing to say. I think you're confused?
And honestly I'm also sick of the Freep's bullshit. Even before the pandemic their whole narrative was that the economy was collapsing and development was imploding, look at their articles in 2019. It's as if they could have been written recently and you wouldn't be able to tell they weren't if you didn't know.
Oh, we'll see high profile projects go on hold you say? Except every big project they checked in with was under construction just as planned. Monroe Block has been on hold, it is on hold, that was already confirmed and we've known that for awhile. But it seems Freep just caught on to this? Also how does the one campus martius addition create a possible excess of office space when Quicken is occupying it and already committed to doing so? Little lies like that litter their work.
When I see the cranes there and ground being dig, I will believe it.