First mile of paved road-How about we have the first mile of this-Solar Road!

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

#1. Nothing "rises upward" in a Solar Roadway, regardless of the season.

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Says Frank Nemecek, P.E. Frost heave--the phenomenon that causes potholes--occurs when water in the soil migrates beneath the roadbed and freezes. As you know, water expands in volume when it freezes, applying upward force to the roadbed above. But of course, real-world engineering principles don't apply in the world of SOLAR[[!).

Unless solar panels magically make water dissipate from soil, or prevent the temperature of the ground from falling below 33 degrees F, guess what happens, chief?

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#2. The edge of a Solar Roadway isn't any sharper or more severe than the seams that are already present in a concrete road.

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Concrete roads also don't fracture with straight, pre-engineered, horizontal metal edges and corners projecting up from the road surface.

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#3. Potholes don't form in a Solar Roadway.

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See #1 above. Potholes aren't a function of the pavement. They're a function of the drainage below the roadbed. Frost depth in Michigan is a minimum of 24 inches. So unless you're going to build your solar road on a 24 inch-thick slab embedded in the ground, you're talking out of your asshole.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Umm... Did I say that? Did I say anything even remotely like that?

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No, just reprising a familiar strain in arguments about power sources. You know, remembering other failed promises about power generation that may be apt to consider at this point.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Snow is dealt with by a heating element that is embedded into the Solar Roadway. Snow gets melted away and is drained just like rain does.

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So you're going to use the power generated by the "green" "solar" road to melt water. So, how much power is left over after this? If you're going to heat the roadway surface to keep it free of snow and ice, doesn't that mean there will be some times when the "green" solar panel will actually be a power consumer? That would be a sight: A "green" technology that uses electrical power to keep the roads free of ice so we can all drive. Talk about regressive...

I trust this ice-melting device will produce water, which will mix with particles of rubber, fuel, vehicle fluids and other materials into a toxic runoff we'll need to keep treating.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

As for the other variables that you mentioned, not every road and/or parking is a good candidate for conversion to a Solar Roadway. However, there are lots of them were it does work.

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Of course it works. That's why nobody has built a mile of it. Pffffttt ...

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

An emotional reaction to something stupid may be a sign of fatigue. But when you have a problem and, year after year, week after week, day after day, people float unsuitable, untested, unworkable plans that allow us to KEEP DOING STUPID STUFF, an emotional reaction may be suitable. Why don't you clear your head, look into why other cities in the world are LIGHT YEARS ahead of Detroit, and stop giving this twaddle any serious credence. We don't even have bike paths yet, let alone light rail.

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Yeah, Solar Roadways are a "unsuitable, untested, unworkable plan."

The 2008 study from the U.S. Department of Transportation doesn't really exist.

The prototype, and larger pilot project, in Idaho were complete fabrications.

The presentation at TED 2009 was a complete lie.

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So, we're going to solve the problem of road maintenance by putting maintenance-heavy panels right down the middle of the road where 100,000-pound trucks drive over them every day, crushing them under snow and salt and gravel?

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The Solar Roadway has already been tested to withstand the weight of a fully loaded 18-wheeler. 100,000 lbs. trucks do no damage to them whatsoever.

You would know if this if you read some of the materials that are out there on this thing.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Says Frank Nemecek, P.E.

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No, so says the engineers who designed the thing.

Believe it or not, the U.S. Department of Transportation actually employs a couple of them.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Yeah, Solar Roadways are a "unsuitable, untested, unworkable plan."

The 2008 study from the U.S. Department of Transportation doesn't really exist.

The prototype, and larger pilot project, in Idaho were complete fabrications.

The presentation at TED 2009 was a complete lie.

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So they got a few of these panels to work in a controlled experimental setting. That's fantastic. Where's the next step--the real-world application? Surely, this is such a slam dunk we can pave at least one cul-de-sac in a 2-year time frame, yes?

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

No, so says the engineers who designed the thing.

Believe it or not, the U.S. Department of Transportation actually employs a couple of them.

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Provide source with claim by US DOT engineers [[licensed P.E.s) stating that Solar Roadway panels are not subject to damage through frost heave.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Yeah, Solar Roadways are a "unsuitable, untested, unworkable plan."

The 2008 study from the U.S. Department of Transportation doesn't really exist.

The prototype, and larger pilot project, in Idaho were complete fabrications.

The presentation at TED 2009 was a complete lie.

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Oh, yes. Some egghead-gearheads at the DOT did a study. Woo-hoo! We're in business! Start laying it down, at great expense, everywhere! Whee!

Except we don't have the money for it.

And that it won't solve our problems.

And that there are myriad other things we can do to prepare ourselves for the 21st century.

But forget all that stuff. Let's just build this new technology that has never existed outside of a testing situation. Even though it's not right for every situation. And, clearly, not every road is appropriate for it. And, given the fact that we haven't instituted it outside of a laboratory environment, we really have no idea how much power it will actually produce, or whether it will be a net consumer of power during cold, cloudy spells. WHO CARES ABOUT ALL THAT! LET'S JUST DO IT!

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

The Solar Roadway has already been tested to withstand the weight of a fully loaded 18-wheeler. 100,000 lbs. trucks do no damage to them whatsoever.

You would know if this if you read some of the materials that are out there on this thing.

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So you're saying that, through ice and snow, through thaws and freezes, though a stream of 164,000-pound trucks spilling gravel all over the road, so that slamming on brakes and scraping gravel across the surface, bumping and braking, crashing scattering metal everywhere, nothing will happen to this magic surface?

The heat and thaw cycles will mean the road will be impervious to potholes?

Let me tell you something: My father was a construction worker for many years. He said that you could be a billionaire overnight if you could design concrete that would never crack. You know why he used to crack that joke? Because it's impossible. When you say you will build a road that will never have potholes, that will never have problems, that will have a miracle fabric on it that produces free electricity, you have basically offended my critical thinking skills. And you are worthy of whatever contempt is heaped upon your fantasy. Sorry, friend. It ain't me. It's reality talking.

And we haven't even scratched the surface [[no pun intended) of geometry. Real roadways have curves: concave, convex, and horizontal. Does that mean we have to custom-fabricate each solar panel? Sure, that's cheap. And certainly, we can fabricate a perfectly curved surface that won't be the least bit discontinuous. Because, as we all know, the concrete contractors who pour the roadbed are always inhumanly perfect in their execution.

And what about things like manholes and storm sewers? How do we accommodate those? Sure, you can manufacture a panel that has the same thickness as asphalt--in theory. But each manhole rises to a different height above the concrete roadbed. How do you match the top of manhole elevation? And can you obtain panels with "cut-outs" that accommodate the manholes?

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

And we haven't even scratched the surface [[no pun intended) of geometry. Real roadways have curves: concave, convex, and horizontal. Does that mean we have to custom-fabricate each solar panel? Sure, that's cheap. And certainly, we can fabricate a perfectly curved surface that won't be the least bit discontinuous. Because, as we all know, the concrete contractors who pour the roadbed are always inhumanly perfect in their execution.

And what about things like manholes and storm sewers? How do we accommodate those? Sure, you can manufacture a panel that has the same thickness as asphalt--in theory. But each manhole rises to a different height above the concrete roadbed. How do you match the top of manhole elevation? And can you obtain panels with "cut-outs" that accommodate the manholes?

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How can you say all that, GP? You haven't even read my study of the perpetual motion machine that only needs a slice of the cheese the moon is made of to run forever.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

How can you say all that, GP? You haven't even read my study of the perpetual motion machine that only needs a slice of the cheese the moon is made of to run forever.

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I have a ridiculously naive habit of considering constructibility and practicality when I...

*** LOOK! SHINY BRIGHT THINGS!!! ***

Where was I?

Oh yes, I was applying for a loan from the City of Detroit to bulldoze the outdated, obsolete Guardian Building to construct Michigan's very first solar-powered parking lot. That'll bring the tourists in! Detroit has nothing to worry about ever again. Ever.

Wow! I'm all in favor of healthy skepticism, but you two are just off the charts.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Wow! I'm all in favor of healthy skepticism, but you two are just off the charts.

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Because solar roadways are bullshit off the charts.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Because solar roadways are bullshit off the charts.

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Wow what a great rebuttal! You showed him like you showed me! Who needs to construct an arguement based on research when you can just give a flippant response!

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Wow what a great rebuttal! You showed him like you showed me! Who needs to construct an arguement based on research when you can just give a flippant response!

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Hey ass, maybe you can go up and read the 12 or so posts I wrote above, where I do construct an argument based on facts and engineering science. I see you have no answers to any of the constructibility, practicality, or cost questions.

But hey, solar panels are COOL, man! Don't let facts get in the way of that!

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

So they got a few of these panels to work in a controlled experimental setting. That's fantastic. Where's the next step--the real-world application? Surely, this is such a slam dunk we can pave at least one cul-de-sac in a 2-year time frame, yes?

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Cul-de-sacs aren't a good option because of the curves, as you point out in a different post.

However, after the prototype was built, they went on to build a short test version of it outdoors. From there, they installed it in a parking lot. [[Oh, and no signs of heaving in the 2 years years of it being outdoors in northern Idaho.)

The technology needs to be fine tuned and improved. It's not ready for a full-scale role out yet. However, it shows promise.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

And we haven't even scratched the surface [[no pun intended) of geometry. Real roadways have curves: concave, convex, and horizontal. Does that mean we have to custom-fabricate each solar panel? Sure, that's cheap. And certainly, we can fabricate a perfectly curved surface that won't be the least bit discontinuous. Because, as we all know, the concrete contractors who pour the roadbed are always inhumanly perfect in their execution.

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This is true. The more curves in a road, and the more severe those curves are, the less viable a Solar Roadway is. However, not every road is filled with curves.

For those that are fairly straight, a Solar Roadway shows promise.

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And what about things like manholes and storm sewers? How do we accommodate those? Sure, you can manufacture a panel that has the same thickness as asphalt--in theory. But each manhole rises to a different height above the concrete roadbed. How do you match the top of manhole elevation? And can you obtain panels with "cut-outs" that accommodate the manholes?

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Not sure. The version that I saw didn't accommodate for manholes. However, I'm reasonably confident that this isn't an insurmountable challenge.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

So you're going to use the power generated by the "green" "solar" road to melt water. So, how much power is left over after this?

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I'm not sure. Each panel in the Roadway generates 230 watts of electricity.

If that's not enough to raise its surface temperature above freezing, there's no law that one has to turn the heating element on.

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Originally Posted by Fnemecek

I'm not sure. Each panel in the Roadway generates 230 watts of electricity.

If that's not enough to raise its surface temperature above freezing, there's no law that one has to turn the heating element on.

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Well, 230 watts isn't a whole lot of electricity, depending on the voltage. Of course, if you don't turn on the heating element, then you can't even harness the 230 volts on a snow day. All this makes it into a worse bet than it at first appears.