Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

Name me one other city in America other than Philly that has their sports venues all cramped into one area. I'll exclude the Pistons since they don't even play in Detroit.

Maybe Cleveland? But it's about a mile or so from the Gateway Complex to the Browns Stadium.

Minneapolis has a pretty nice downtown area, the only team they are missing is the Wild who play in downtown St. Paul.

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All in one area is a tough standard, but here are a few that are close:

Cincy has their baseball and football stadiums next to the river. They do not have professional basketball or hockey, so the biggest arena in town is on the University of Cincinnati's campus I think.

Pittsburgh has their football and baseball stadiums next to each other across the river from downtown. Their hockey arena is also near downtown, but on a hillside just east of the CBD.

Atlanta has their basketball arena, football stadium, and convention center all next to each other just west of downtown.

Seattle has their football and baseball stadiums right next to each other just south of downtown.


I'm not sure it's a bad thing to have all the venues next to each other, though. That actually helps with the whole "dead zone" idea. Between 40+ hockey games, 80+ baseball games, 10+ football games, and other events, there's something going on in at least one venue about every other day on average.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

Agreed with the part about arenas. But I thought MSG just went through a complete renovation. I would much rather have something that is going to be vibrant 24 hours a day than a sports arena. As you said it's dead most of the year especially in the offseason.

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MSG did have an interior renovation, but the NYC City Council just voted to end their lease at the end of its term.

There's enormous pressure to remove them from the site, because it prevents a true Penn Station redevelopment, and blocks six million square feet of air rights for new development.

Speaking of Cincinnati, take a look-see at the sucky deal they struck:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...349497852.html

Link to an article abstract asking if basketball arenas spur ecomonic growth:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...597.x/abstract

The answer is: not really, but sort of. If an area is already vibrant, then an arena creates even more vibrancy; but a building alone doesn't do much in creating vibrancy.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

MSG did have an interior renovation, but the NYC City Council just voted to end their lease at the end of its term.

There's enormous pressure to remove them from the site, because it prevents a true Penn Station redevelopment, and blocks six million square feet of air rights for new development.

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Wow so they'll be out of MSG in another ten years?

I wish they had kept Penn Station like it was originally instead of putting MSG on top of it then that high rise office building next to it. Boston is pretty much the same way with North Station.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

Wow so they'll be out of MSG in another ten years?

I wish they had kept Penn Station like it was originally instead of putting MSG on top of it then that high rise office building next to it. Boston is pretty much the same way with North Station.

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You never know what the future holds, but, at this time, likely yes, MSG is a goner. I assume it will try and relocate somewhere in Manhattan, though.

Once it's gone they can rebuild Penn Station, including an above-ground concourse, and they can sell the air rights on the site for new towers.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

You never know what the future holds, but, at this time, likely yes, MSG is a goner. I assume it will try and relocate somewhere in Manhattan, though.

Once it's gone they can rebuild Penn Station, including an above-ground concourse, and they can sell the air rights on the site for new towers.

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All that sounds so much better than having a sports arena there.

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Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

But I don't think, as I've said before, that a new arena is in any way an impediment to getting those 24/7 uses.

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It's big and it gets in the way of stuff. It blocks off the street grid, and creates a long stretch on each side of it that's not appealing for pedestrians to walk along. You can't just hope good urbanism springs up on whatever land is left over when you're done putting superblocks everywhere. It doesn't work like that.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

Because downtown is the Central Business District, not the entertainment district.

When you go to an event at the United Center or Comiskey Park you are going to the game. Mass transit is able to take you to both, you can take the #20 bus to the United Center, the Green, Pink and Blue Lines on the L are also nearby. As for Comiskey there are two L lines plus Pace and CTA buses that go near there. So really there isn't a need to have the stadiums downtown.

Chicago's downtown doesn't really have a need to have an urban renewal project going on. And in order to get to Soldier Field from the west of it which is really the only direction you can approach it from since the lake is there is by crossing a series of train tracks and Lakeshore Drive. Plus the stadium is pretty ugly looking.

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Um, you can just walk RIGHT THROUGH Grant Park to get to SF. It used to be a lovely stadium until they added that tumor to it

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

I wish they had kept Penn Station like it was originally instead of putting MSG on top of it then that high rise office building next to it. Boston is pretty much the same way with North Station.

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Except for the part where the original Penn Station was an irreplaceable architectural gem and North Station was not an interesting building.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

The South Loop isn't a part of downtown though, it's south of the loop which is why it's named the South Loop. Downtown Chicago is the lake to the river and Congress on the south. And the actual Loop [[the tracks the L uses to turn around) is even smaller, it's almost the same as the area the people mover circles in Detroit.
Soldier Field is at 1600 south, Congress is 500 south so it's 11 blocks from being in downtown which is only one block away from being a mile [[the Southside doesn't correct it's address grid until after 31st Street). Soldier Field is in the Museum Campus.

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Wow. Almost a mile! Downtown Chicago technically ends at the base of Grant Park - which is Roosevelt [[as per the Chicago Park District definition)

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Originally Posted by mwilbert

Except for the part where the original Penn Station was an irreplaceable architectural gem and North Station was not an interesting building.

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yes, Old Penn was gorgeous:

http://nycprowler.com/prowler/wp-con...onpostcard.jpg

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Originally Posted by emu steve

I really, really wish Gistok would lend his knowledge of this matter.It MIGHT be that Ilitch was unable to secure all of the land behind the Fox he needed to build an arena there.IF memory serves me correctly, there were a couple holdouts [[and one might have been a trust or some other very, very difficult legal situation which made site acquisition more than simply offering more money).

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Yes... the Freida Alibri heirs, owner of 5 parcels near Columbia and Clifford were the major holdouts. Mike Ilitch got their property in the initial west of Woodward Comerica Park plan with Eminent Domain... but with the move to the east of Woodward site, the Alibri heirs fought to get their land back... but then later balked at paying the increased city taxes at the over million dollars that Ilitch originally payed them... which they later gave back when they got their property back. They have been the MAJOR, although not only holdouts for the west Foxtown site [[other owners were on the periphery... but the 5 Alibri parcels were smack in the middle of the west Foxtown site.

Now as to getting a successful Arena site... a few things have to be done on the part of the Ilitch's.... They need to fill in the gaps along Woodward... namely the area between the Fox and State/Fillmore, as well as the 2 empty parking blocks along the east side of Woodward, west of Comerica Park. Until they do so, no Arena district is going to survive very successfully north of the Fisher Fwy. Just look at how dismal the performance of restaurants inside the Fox Building have performed. Busy on game and theatre days... and totally dead at other times. This same scenario will be the case of any entertainment district around the arena, UNLESS... they are tied together to a built up Woodward Ave area above and below GCP. Mike Ilitch has to realize that you cannot have pockets of development surrounded by large stretches of pedestrian unfriendly acres of parking and empty lots.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Yes... the Freida Alibri heirs, owner of 5 parcels near Columbia and Clifford were the major holdouts. Mike Ilitch got their property in the initial west of Woodward Comerica Park plan with Eminent Domain... but with the move to the east of Woodward site, the Alibri heirs fought to get their land back... but then later balked at paying the increased city taxes at the over million dollars that Ilitch originally payed them... which they later gave back when they got their property back. They have been the MAJOR, although not only holdouts for the west Foxtown site [[other owners were on the periphery... but the 5 Alibri parcels were smack in the middle of the west Foxtown site.

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Thanks!

Your post answered a lot of questions.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Now as to getting a successful Arena site... a few things have to be done on the part of the Ilitch's.... They need to fill in the gaps along Woodward... namely the area between the Fox and State/Fillmore, as well as the 2 empty parking blocks along the east side of Woodward, west of Comerica Park. Until they do so, no Arena district is going to survive very successfully north of the Fisher Fwy. Just look at how dismal the performance of restaurants inside the Fox Building have performed. Busy on game and theatre days... and totally dead at other times. This same scenario will be the case of any entertainment district around the arena, UNLESS... they are tied together to a built up Woodward Ave area above and below GCP. Mike Ilitch has to realize that you cannot have pockets of development surrounded by large stretches of pedestrian unfriendly acres of parking and empty lots.

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Very good post, but I have no reason to believe that Mike Ilitch has even the most basic understanding of that.

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Originally Posted by rb336

Um, you can just walk RIGHT THROUGH Grant Park to get to SF. It used to be a lovely stadium until they added that tumor to it

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Yeah so? Soldier Field isn't downtown.

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Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

Why is it better for a stadium/convention center/arena to be in a neighborhood that is urban but isn't "downtown"?

In my personal opinion, the negative impacts of a facility like that are lessened and the positive impacts heightened in a central business district environment rather than in a place like, for instance, Corktown. Or, for Chicago examples, the neighborhoods around the United Center or the White Sox stadium.

Thinking about it, the best alternative for a stadium may be where Solider Field is. It's near the core, but in a park setting where the parking lots are not in place of dense, urban buildings, and there aren't any worries about blank walls. But unless we build all our stadiums on Belle Isle, Detroit doesn't really have that option.

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The Sox and UC are nuisances for neighbors. The city kept them away from residents and buffered them by a ton of parking. Just look at the Wrigley Field Renovation plan from hell. You got residents screaming that new improvements and later events will totally destroy their neighborhood. Same things goes for hospitals. They are a necessity, but no one wants to live near them because they take up alot of space, operate 24/7 and generate a ton of traffic.

Some cities use stadiums as a crutch. Their hope is that placing them downtown will generate a ton of new development. Nearly all of the silver bullet arena attempts I've seen have always fallen well short of expectations. Chicago has now also fallen into for this concept as hundred of millions will be spent on a new basketball arena in the south loop.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Chicago has now also fallen into for this concept as hundred of millions will be spent on a new basketball arena in the south loop.

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I might want to add an arena that isn't needed and for one of the worst major conference teams in college basketball.

Chicago is a pro sports city whose interest in college sports is typically limited to Notre Dame football, Illinois and Northwestern alumni. DePaul basketball rests somewhere between Loyola field hockey and December walks along the beach.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

I might want to add an arena that isn't needed and for one of the worst major conference teams in college basketball.

Chicago is a pro sports city whose interest in college sports is typically limited to Notre Dame football, Illinois and Northwestern alumni. DePaul basketball rests somewhere between Loyola field hockey and December walks along the beach.

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I agree. And to think, United Center offered them space. It makes sense to bring the Blue Demons back to Chicago but pointless for their own facility.

But what separates the planning of this arena from Detroit is they did what they could to avoid tearing down significant old buildings. In fact they are moving a nice old row house standing in the way and the hotel towers will wrap around older abandoned structures that could have easily been leveled with practically no opposition. Plus the garages to support all this will be concealed.

I might be wrong, but I'm not convinced ALL of this land in the development area for the Wings stadium will be completely filled with buildings. Ford Field seemed to be the only exception where there wasn't an absurd amount of parking spaces added.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I agree. And to think, United Center offered them space. It makes sense to bring the Blue Demons back to Chicago but pointless for their own facility.

But what separates the planning of this arena from Detroit is they did what they could to avoid tearing down significant old buildings. In fact they are moving a nice old row house standing in the way and the hotel towers will wrap around older abandoned structures that could have easily been leveled with practically no opposition. Plus the garages to support all this will be concealed.

I might be wrong, but I'm not convinced ALL of this land in the development area for the Wings stadium will be completely filled with buildings. Ford Field seemed to be the only exception where there wasn't an absurd amount of parking spaces added.

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I heard they turned down the United Center offer because it wasn't free rent. But then again I guess they'd probably conflict with the Bulls and Hawks.

Are you talking about the rowhouse that's on Prarie between 21st and Cermak? That house seems out of place sort of now. I'm hoping they don't do anything to the area north of 21st.

I'm not convinced at all that the land in the development area around the Wings new arena will be filled with buildings. Ilitch is involved so I'm convinced it will be gravel lots because we all know Detroit needs more parking lots.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

I heard they turned down the United Center offer because it wasn't free rent. But then again I guess they'd probably conflict with the Bulls and Hawks.

Are you talking about the rowhouse that's on Prarie between 21st and Cermak? That house seems out of place sort of now. I'm hoping they don't do anything to the area north of 21st.

I'm not convinced at all that the land in the development area around the Wings new arena will be filled with buildings. Ilitch is involved so I'm convinced it will be gravel lots because we all know Detroit needs more parking lots.

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Yes that rowhouse is it. And Nope, the only structures being demolished are that two-story parking garage and the outdated 1990's style bank. Currently the arena is on the backburner for neighborhood opposition and the neighbors are trying to block a 7-story office and data center from being built across the street on an empty lot.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Yes... the Freida Alibri heirs, owner of 5 parcels near Columbia and Clifford were the major holdouts. Mike Ilitch got their property in the initial west of Woodward Comerica Park plan with Eminent Domain... but with the move to the east of Woodward site, the Alibri heirs fought to get their land back... but then later balked at paying the increased city taxes at the over million dollars that Ilitch originally payed them... which they later gave back when they got their property back. They have been the MAJOR, although not only holdouts for the west Foxtown site [[other owners were on the periphery... but the 5 Alibri parcels were smack in the middle of the west Foxtown site.

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I can't understand why Ilitch could not simply swap five of his parcels or more for their five. I can't believe that this situation had to be so intractable. An arena behind the Fox would have been an ideal situation. This just points out why trying to get something done in Detroit is so difficult. You can get 99 people to agree on something but there is always one person or one group that won't budge. When it comes to property being used for parking, the owner should only be able to lease it from the city until such time when the city decides it wants it back to develop something. Or there should be an agreement that says to the property owner of a parking lot that they only have so many years to use it as a parking lot. After that they have to either develop a physical building on the site that meets a given zoning code or it reverts back to the city. Who knew 100 years ago that city property would be hostage to those owning property in it. An individual's right to own land in a city should be different from owning land, like a farm, in a rural area. Striking down eminent domain in Michigan will haunt Detroit for decades to come.

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Originally Posted by royce

I can't understand why Ilitch could not simply swap five of his parcels or more for their five. I can't believe that this situation had to be so intractable. An arena behind the Fox would have been an ideal situation. This just points out why trying to get something done in Detroit is so difficult. You can get 99 people to agree on something but there is always one person or one group that won't budge. ... Striking down eminent domain in Michigan will haunt Detroit for decades to come.

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I agree on eminent domain.

As I posted earlier, eminent domain saved Nationals Park. The owners of some properties absolutely refused to sell, fought eminent domain in the courts, etc. etc.

The properties are located where the Nationals Park infield is.

That is what eminent domain is all about: After getting 99 to agree to prevent one or two holdouts from killing the whole deal.

Folks sometimes fail to realize that when these 'deals' blow up because of one or two holdouts years of planning, site acquisition, etc. etc. all go down the drain.

Iltich was forced to acquire land at multiple sites even though I doubt he really wanted to.

Terribly inefficient way to do business and yes it means Ilitch has probably bought a lot of land he doesn't need and doesn't know what to do with.

But I don't think it is fair to blame him for it.

Blame the lack of eminent domain.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Now as to getting a successful Arena site... a few things have to be done on the part of the Ilitch's.... They need to fill in the gaps along Woodward... namely the area between the Fox and State/Fillmore, as well as the 2 empty parking blocks along the east side of Woodward, west of Comerica Park. Until they do so, no Arena district is going to survive very successfully north of the Fisher Fwy. Just look at how dismal the performance of restaurants inside the Fox Building have performed. Busy on game and theatre days... and totally dead at other times. This same scenario will be the case of any entertainment district around the arena, UNLESS... they are tied together to a built up Woodward Ave area above and below GCP. Mike Ilitch has to realize that you cannot have pockets of development surrounded by large stretches of pedestrian unfriendly acres of parking and empty lots.

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One thing I've always mentioned in these arena threads is the hope that an arena can really expand the number of dates that a big event is in the area.

That is a big step toward making the area more vibrant 52 weeks a year.

Comerica is good for 85+ dates a year.

An arena starts with 50 Wings dates. Add say 25+ other event dates. That means adding 75 to the 85 of the Tigers.

If it the Pistons would come and bring 50 dates that would bring the number to over 200, not counting the limited number of dates at Ford Field.

Add about 20+ dates for Ford Field [[e.g., Lions games, bowl game, MAC FB championship, MHSAA FB champions games, etc.),

I could see the number of days with events in the 225+ range IF the Pistons eventually come... and that doesn't includes dates for non-sports facilities.