Detroit's socialist nightmare is America's future (Model City program)

"I find it perplexing that only 20 years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the West continues to implement laws that mimic all of the failed policies of our former "communist" foes. In fact, our current president won the election by promising to "spread the wealth around." But... truth be told... we don't have to look to Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union to find a society destroyed by coercion, socialism, and the overreaching power of the State. We could just look at Detroit....."

http://www.thedailycrux.com/content/...ment_Stupidity

Boy, it sure is easy to have history support your arguments when you only tell the parts of the historical record that support your arguments ... :p

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Originally Posted by Catman

"I find it perplexing that only 20 years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the West continues to implement laws that mimic all of the failed policies of our former "communist" foes. In fact, our current president won the election by promising to "spread the wealth around." But... truth be told... we don't have to look to Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union to find a society destroyed by coercion, socialism, and the overreaching power of the State. We could just look at Detroit....."

http://www.thedailycrux.com/content/...ment_Stupidity

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Nothing more than extremist, anti-government, survivalist bullshit. On top of that, unapologetically racist. Ignores the vast majority of Detroit's history and cherry picks about federal programs to somehow draw the false and unbelievable conclusion that is the cause of Detroit's demise. Adds in some fear mongering about "America becoming Detroit" to make it truly tasteless. Worthless propaganda.

I find it perplexing that 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall that we're still so irrationally scared of "communism" and "socialism" that we have failed to implement policies that reflect the successful policies of western European countries and the rest of the industrialized world that have stabilized and improved cities, provided universal health care, raised educational standards, provided free or low cost higher education, encouraged mass transit growth and usage, lessened the growth of large income inequities, supported policies that protected manufacturing sectors and their jobs and helped buffer the effects of economic and technological change, and have encouraged the growth of green technologies and industries, amongst other things.

As obvious as the failures of governments' attempts at social engineering have been, I think the author is missing the true cause of Detroit's problems. It isn't primarily due to a failure of the government, but rather the failure of the people, more specifically the social and family problems of the people. Government planning can work if society is functional. But no amount of government programs will succeed if you have thugs stealing tires from 30 cars in one night, burglars breaking into homes three times in a row, little girls and old ladies being raped as they walk down the street, parents not taking responsibility for their children, etc.

Here's a great socialist idea: manufacturing OUR own products within OUR own borders.
Here's another great socialist Idea: tariffs on imports.

Crazy, I know...

The strongest economies are the ones that practice protectionism. Then we can have all the healthcare we'd like.

funny eastside how correct you are...we are so afraid of new thinking or thinking outside the box we turn away from systems that can work within our principles...gee like our educational system...dam socialists

Do you ever get the haunting impression that the parasitic saboteurs in power have deliberately sabotaged The United States for their own gain simply because they have acquired the minimum power necessary to do so silently and with impunity?

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Originally Posted by Retroit

As obvious as the failures of governments' attempts at social engineering have been, I think the author is missing the true cause of Detroit's problems. It isn't primarily due to a failure of the government, but rather the failure of the people, more specifically the social and family problems of the people.

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You raise a good point, although I think it's important to bear in mind that the government itself has contributed materially to the social and family problems of which you speak; and in many cases, created those problems.

It isn't people's fault that both parents now must work in lieu of having a parent stay home and raise the children.

It's not the people's fault that their wages, in terms of buying power, have plummetted over the past 50 years.

It's not the people's fault that politicans passed laws that allow corporations to ship hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas.

All these societal ills were created by the government [[or the corporations that pull the government's strings). I'm talking locally, statewide, and federally.

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Government planning can work if society is functional. But no amount of government programs will succeed if you have thugs stealing tires from 30 cars in one night, burglars breaking into homes three times in a row, little girls and old ladies being raped as they walk down the street, parents not taking responsibility for their children, etc.

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And if people in the city government weren't always stealing or misappropriating the taxpayers' money, there probably would be enough funding for a police force with the manpower and resources to respond to those break-ins, etc.

The reason there aren't as many break-ins in places like Grosse Pointe or even Eastpointe isn't because the people out there are more honest. It's because the cops out there will be on a criminal's ass in a minute if someone calls to report a B&E.

In Detroit, thanks in large part to government corruption, the police are unable to do the job they're supposed to do. They're undermanned and overwhelmed.

Government -- or those within it -- exacerbate the problems, and often create them.

That is all true, dookie joe, but who elects the people that run the government? Our economic problems are caused by Americans buying foreign goods and electing politicians that promote free trade. If the voters put incompetent people into office, they will get an incompetent government. The amount of crime in any given area is most directly determined by the amount of criminals living there. Yes, a police force that gets support from their community will do a more effective job, but it is also precisely because they have the support of their community that the crime is not as high.

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Originally Posted by Catman

Detroit's socialist nightmare is America's future [[Model City program)

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How can you say such things when Detroit is such a shining example of progress and prosperity?
[[sarcasm)

Oh if only we could hop on a light rail train as opposed to taking several different busses which pick us up at delapidated decrepid cold bus 'shelters' and deliver us to one of several low paying miserable dead end jobs...a lady I talked to today told me back in the forties she and friends would get several job offers at a time after lamenting that her granddaughter lost her 15 dollar an hour gig and now works for minimum wage. Why does everything have to be so hard? We do not live in a worker friendly state or for that matter country! Weak unions and an emotionally immature selfish naive working and lower middle class have devastated this region...unless the powers that be hear the voices of the people our wages are going to remain stagnant and we arent going to catch up to the rest of the industrialized world in wages and standard of living...
Im a shareholder and hourly worker who wants reasonably affordable health care and a fair liveable wage....Im fortunate enough to have an auto and am going to be able to pay the car off soon as Im gettting gouged by insurance-health and auto- having added my wife to my health insurance my take home is much lower..and I dont work under a union contract so there is no forty hour guarantee...where I work we have all been cut to around 35 hrs per wk...if the place was union I could make up my lost hrs at a busier location [[retail) my wage is in the upper teens and a lot of people think that is 'good' money.....

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Originally Posted by Retroit

That is all true, dookie joe, but who elects the people that run the government? Our economic problems are caused by Americans buying foreign goods and electing politicians that promote free trade. If the voters put incompetent people into office, they will get an incompetent government. The amount of crime in any given area is most directly determined by the amount of criminals living there. Yes, a police force that gets support from their community will do a more effective job, but it is also precisely because they have the support of their community that the crime is not as high.

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Retroit - While your comments look very rational on paper, I think you are forgetting this is 2010. This is a time when campaigning politicians can promise certain things to the people in order to gain their trust and vote, all the while having zero intention on following through with those promises once elected.

Moreso, this is a time when peoples' votes are decided by silly smear campaigns they catch when getting up to pop some more corn or grab a Jolt inbetween their favorite shows. I should be safe in assuming that people who both make it to the polls and cast an educated decision inside those booths are making up the meek half of registered voters.

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Originally Posted by Mipade

Here's a great socialist idea: manufacturing OUR own products within OUR own borders.
Here's another great socialist Idea: tariffs on imports.

Crazy, I know...

The strongest economies are the ones that practice protectionism. Then we can have all the healthcare we'd like.

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Crazy, like a fox.
Manufacturing our own products within our own borders sounds like too much common sense.

TKshreve, that is true, but I think that most of the failures of our governments [[City of Detroit, Michigan, and Federal) are not recognized as failures by liberal-socialist-Democratic-"welfare-ists". We are still fighting the War on Poverty even though we know it doesn't work. We still have Affirmative Action even though we know it hasn't encouraged blacks to advance by their own initiative. We still have Government Housing programs even though we know it hasn't reduced the number that need it. We still have Welfare programs even though we know it discourages people from providing for themselves. We still have Free Trade because we want to be neighborly to all the Third World countries even though we know that it is making our country one in the process.

So, yes, politicians do lie. But they lie no by telling us that they are going to return America to it's independent values that made it great and then fail to deliver on those promises; rather they lie by telling us that all these liberal-socialist-Democratic-"welfare-ist" programs are going to help us when they know damn well that they won't.

The whole argument against welfare for the impoverished was thrown out the window with the Big Bank Bailouts. Isn't that obvious by now?

But the bank bailout was touted as "saving the poor American people from economic disaster". The banks did not want the bailout. They were forced by the government into taking it. The theory was that if the government gave the banks a bunch of money they would in turn pour it into the market to return it to the same unsustainable condition that got us into this mess in the first place. This is the ignorant mindset that is running our country. They do not care about capitalism; they want to believe that their socialist schemes can be forced into succeeding.

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Originally Posted by Retroit

But the bank bailout was touted as "saving the poor American people from economic disaster". The banks did not want the bailout. They were forced by the government into taking it. The theory was that if the government gave the banks a bunch of money they would in turn pour it into the market to return it to the same unsustainable condition that got us into this mess in the first place. This is the ignorant mindset that is running our country. They do not care about capitalism; they want to believe that their socialist schemes can be forced into succeeding.

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Cui bono???

Let the record stand that Retroit logged out after a long delay without responding.

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The whole argument against welfare for the impoverished was thrown out the window with the Big Bank Bailouts. Isn't that obvious by now?

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stands.

The concept that Big Banks were coerced into accepting bailout money is prima facie absurd. How can they be simultaneoulsy controlling and controlled-by the federal government? The Big Banks were somehow forced to accept welfare? And impoverished people who did not gain from that handout are somehow responsible for that? WTF?

Government -- or those within it -- exacerbate the problems, and often create them.

Maxx: That reminds me of interviews I heard recently on NPR with businessmen from Haiti and the Dominican Rep.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/...54&m=123659335

[[It's the two economies story.)

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Originally Posted by Bobl

Crazy, like a fox.
Manufacturing our own products within our own borders sounds like too much common sense.

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But if you put taxes on foreign imports, other countries do the same.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Cui bono???

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Translation: "Whose benefit?" Answer: The politicians who want to get re-elected by the voters who don't want to live in a capitalist system where companies and banks are allowed to fail.

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Let the record stand that Retroit logged out after a long delay without responding.

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And let the record of the Senate Finance Committee stand that Retroit doesn't sit around and wait for someone to respond to his posts. :rolleyes:

Jimaz, I don't have first-hand knowledge of what goes on on Wall Street or Washington, D.C. I'm only reporting what I've seen on TV. This is the source of my comments about the banks not wanting bailout:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gthebank/view/

If you are pressed for time, the relevant comments are at 26-31 minutes into the program. Although one bank exec [[Lewis, from BofA) went along with the bailout, he later regretted it [[38-40) minutes. The relevant excerpts to support my claim that this was done for political gain is reflected in the scolding of the bank execs. by Congress [[47-49) and President Obama [[49-51).