Ontario, the birth place of Canada's auto industry, and Michigan, the birth place of the North American auto industry are finally getting together to form a new Auto-Pact. New Ontario-Michigan agreement to bolster cross-border trade | Windsor Star
Printable View
Ontario, the birth place of Canada's auto industry, and Michigan, the birth place of the North American auto industry are finally getting together to form a new Auto-Pact. New Ontario-Michigan agreement to bolster cross-border trade | Windsor Star
Overall, Michigan incurred a -$91.8 billion deficit exporting and importing products during 2022. That dollar amount reflects a 21.1% year-over-year increase from -$75.8 billion in red ink in 2021.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/mic...op-10-exports/
Michigans biggest export is auto related and you are losing billions a year while doing it,so the answer is to increase exports while doing the same thing and expecting at some point in time to make money at it?
The future around automobiles is gearing up to be self supporting manufacturers that rely less on shipping parts and materials for finial assembly.
Of course Canada wants to increase cross border exports,they make money on it at the expense of Michigan.
Last year, total trade between Ontario and Michigan was valued at C$80.6 billion, with imports from Michigan totalling C$31.3 billion. That trade supported thousands of jobs on both sides of the border.
It did not support thousands of jobs,it cost $50b to retain those jobs in Michigan at a loss.
I would be telling Canada- Yea let’s work on that trade imbalance first so we are not losing $50b a year then we can discuss giving up our trade secrets where we retain the competitive edge,besides once you get them why do you need us ?
But then again I did not fall for that whole free bridge thing because we are buddies and that’s how nice we are charade.
It gives the appearance that Canada thinks Michigan is their own little China right across the border.
They spelt neighbor wrong in the article,makes me feel better paid professionals get it wrong.
They keep moving forward thinking the auto industry is going to be the same 10 years from now as it is today,but it will not be,it will be the same difference as with the horse and buggy’s verses the automobile,that’s how radical of a change it will have to go through.
Electric vehicles consist of 200 parts whereas an ICE vehicle is 1000 parts.
If a majority of Michigans cross border trade with Canada consists of parts used in the manufacture of automobiles,with the implementation of EVs.
You just reduced your cross border traffic in parts alone by 80%.
You have to know that this transition is going to hit the state hard,one would think now would be the time to start dealing with it verses doubling down with a 98.1 billion dollar export deficit and growing.
The handwriting is already in the wall.
"they spelt neighbor wrong" Is this a joke? It's a Canadian article. By the way spelt is the U.K. past tense so you spelled it wrong.
You are completely misunderstanding what this even means. Michigan as a state is not losing any money on imports/exports. Those numbers indicate the value of products that are being imported/exported in total by the entire state and all of its businesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
What ?Quote:
Originally Posted by drjeff
How about every week I give you $100 and in exchange you give me $400 back ? Is that a fair trade? Is for me,cash please.
If the trade balance is negative — i.e. the country is in a trade deficit — the total value of the country’s imports exceeds the total value of its exports.
- Trade Deficit → Imports > Exports [[Negative Trade Balance)
If a country’s imports exceed its exports over the long run, the country’s trade deficit can see its currency become devalued in the global markets as a result of the reduced demand.
Most countries in a trade deficit will attempt to cut the deficit by undergoing initiatives to increase export volume while decreasing import volume.
https://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge/trade-deficit/
The numbers are kinda irrelevant,you want a balance of exporting verses importing.
When you talk about trade between Canada and the state of Michigan if it was balanced Michigan would not be consistently in a negative deficit in the billions and growing not declining.
Trading partners yes but more beneficial to Canada verses Michigan.
It’s actually a sign of Michigan losing productivity and having to buy more goods from Canada to make up for it long term.
Negative trade imbalance is common,but not at those numbers or ratios and consistently increasing.
No different in the bigger picture of the U.S. trade deficit with China ,it’s in the trillions,because we are not producing products we are buying them which makes us dependent on them and subject to their whims.
The less we produce,the less manufacturing jobs are available and considering Michigan is still a heavy manufacturing economy the deficit translates into you are becoming more dependent on Canada to produce the goods that you once did.
You could balance it out with other goods like agriculture,Michigan used to be #3 in feeding the country but not anymore and even worse in the future because now you want to convert agricultural land into solar farms.
Ideally you want to be exporting more goods then you are importing which is a sign of being self sufficient and having the ability and capability to over produce and not be dependent on your trading partner where eventually you will be at the point of no choice.
Sure you are not losing money on the specific transactions but in the overall long term picture you are losing production capabilities as you become consumers verses builders,along with that comes low paying jobs and people leaving the state for better opportunities.
You may be trading partners with Canada but why would you even think about what is being suggested in the sharing of technology,at the end of the day they are still your competitors, so why would you want to build them up so they can sell more products to their other trading parters at your expense?
They are wanting you to give them your competitive edge,that also benefits you with other countries as trading partners,so once they have it you are no longer relevant and they can undercut you into poverty.
I get it,they are sweet lovable Canadians and your best friend because they gave you a free bridge on credit,but it is business and when it comes down to it,Canada is going to look out for Canada’s best economic interests first and foremost which they should,just like Michigan needs to be doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Come on Richard.
Canadians aren’t that nice. Some of them keep backchecking you on your spelling. Gordie Howe would have done it too!
"Gordie drives a minivan, it's his favorite car," says Travis. "So he was pumping gas into it one day when a man got out of his car and recognized Gordie. The man started saying what a genius Gordie was, what a great disguise, to drive a minivan when everyone would expect he'd be driving something more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
"But my grandfather grew up in a home during the Depression with no money whatsoever, no heat and no bathroom in their first house. Gordie never needed a whole lot to be happy and it has rubbed off on the rest of the family. The idea that it isn't money that makes you happy has been passed on because of what little he came from.”
https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/th...-know/c-468201
Based on that I would think he would be livid that somebody wasted $6 billion on a bridge in his name.
It represents what he was and not who he was.
Who he was, would not have been a person that would go on the internet and whine about everybody else’s spelling.
But I am thinking the bridge only cost $3 billion but Canada jacked up the price to $6 billion so they could get Michigan to pay for it all under the guise of it was a free bridge,they just did not specify free for whom.
I was being sarcastic when I said Canadians were nice,just like any other socialist,you trust them as far as you can throw them.
I would be leary of signing any kind of agreements,because when you have a democracy that can be canceled out in a matter of minutes,like what just happened in Niger,those agreements are as good as the paper they are written on,might as well be doing trade agreements with North Korea.
Definitely not trade secrets.
I hope all of you academic internet police enjoy your rein while it lasts,soon AÍ will make you obsolete along with all of those pieces of paper hanging on the wall that seem you make you think you are better then others.
No need for a masters,AI can handle that a 3 year old will have the same excess to the knowledge that you have with the click of a button,without the debt.
All of these agreements are based solely on the free flow of government incentives,we hit a recession and it all comes to a screeching halt.
There is no diversified plan B in place and nobody learned what happens when you put all of your cookies in one jar.
They are thinking that printing trillions is going to go on forever,history shows it does not and it is not sustainable without jacking everybody’s taxes up double.
The thing about politicians,as a rule they are long gone when the ramifications kick in,they just need to appease in that moment in time.
Dedicated to Richard:
https://youtu.be/OGC4JnXzn1o
That’s the difference,I can talk to much without worrying about the police coming knocking on my door because of my opposition while online,or the freezing of my bank accounts or my families.Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
You cannot,because you do not enjoy the same freedoms that I have.
I also can understand the difference between an invitation to join a socialist collective hidden in the guise of a trade agreement and an honest attempt to partake in free trade.
Beware of Greeks bearing free gifts.
What they are saying is Canadians lack the ability to have free thought which removes the ability to innovate,so they need Michigan to help them by joining the collective.
After systematically and successfully removing the freedom of self thought and innovation in Canada the next step would be to cross the river and continue from there.
But what they fail to understand is the road Canada went down is exactly what brought them to that point,now they are asking Michigan to go down that same road,and even conned them with the false promise of a free bridge,join us and we will bring to into the world of free stuff,where billion dollar bridges just appear out of nowhere.
So what happens after you drain Michigan of its ability to have free thought and innovation?
Why would Canada need to join up with Michigan under the guise of let’s be friends and innovate together?
You can do what your other partners and mentors do already,just steal it after it comes to market.
You are thinking that a back door has been created because a small percentage of Michiganders became vocal and embraced your values and agenda so now is the time to push that Trojan horse across the bridge.
But you are forgetting politics in America are fleeting moments in time and we will always be a republic protected by our constitution that you despise so much,so what you were able to achieve in Canada sinks at the river.
What is the true meaning behind Confederation Square?
All of those sacrifices to protect your rights and freedoms that you guys rolled over and gave up without question and even justified.
That was the day democracy died in Canada,with the stroke of a pen and without a fight.
The trade numbers between Michigan and Canada are deceptive also.
Its $65 billion {2022} in trade between Canada and Michigan,the other $195 billion that they are counting,originates in other states and is counted as cross border trade in Michigan because it goes over the border in Michigan to Canada,it’s not goods produced in Michigan by Michiganders.
With the 10 states that do trade with Canada in over 1 billion,Michigan is the only one that is creating a growing negative trade deficit that is in the billions,everybody else figured out how to make it even,but they are probably not looking at it as friends but business and in business you do not survive by running a growing multi billion dollar deficit trade practice.
Interesting to note Texas matches export numbers with Michigan.
Even more interesting is a majority of that almost 48% is in flipping fossil fuel back and forth,my guess is sent to refineries in Canada then shipped back to Texas.
The point is the two major exports between Canada and the United States are the same two things they are eliminating,fossil fuels and the automotive parts sector.
So the 2 states that will see billions in cross border dropped from the bigger picture will be Texas and Michigan.
Remove those two from the equation and in the next 10 years or less,you have halved cross border trade.
That is billions in Michigan alone …..
Thanks Canuck. Say it in a tune I say. I haven't heard that one since CKLW in the sixties.Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
Richard does have such a peculiar imagination. It's not like crossing over the iron curtain... the new bridge is not a Checkpoint Charlie, with oppressed people hiding in car trunks trying to escape the tyranny!! ;)
The benefit of the new bridge is that auto companies can more easily send US manufacturing jobs out of the country. Good for Canada, bad for Michigan and Ohio, which is why Canada is willing to be on the hook for the bridge financing.
However, I thought the CAW had renegotiated their contracts some years ago, and it was no longer so profitable for the big 2.5 to send our jobs to Canada.
Did something change?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Well, for one thing, CAW doesn’t exist anymore. They
merged with other unions to form UNIFOR ten years ago.
.
Does this agreement we are going to get more Canadian Trash into the Michigan Landfills? Everyday on I-275 I see 3 to 5 Canadian registered trash haulers going to the landfill in Carlton. Canada has more open spaces than we we do, why can't the keep their own trash in their country.....Same goes for the folks down in Ohio, why are we getting their crap?
In reference to Richard’s educated guess about Canadian trucker woes;Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Chump gave chump change to Yellow Corporation to the tune of 700 million to stave off bankruptcy a couple years past. They paid back 300 dollars in interest on the debt only to go belly up just now.
A lot of those employees whose pensions are disappeared like magic. The magic of capital maybe. They’ll probably not be too small to fail and be left out in the cold, the old fashioned way. That’s freedom fries for you.
Because Canada joined an agreement with some other countries concerning the disposal of plastic waste and the toxins they omit during that process.Quote:
Originally Posted by birwood
We did not join the agreement,so Canada ships their plastic waste to Michigan so Canada can say - see how we are saving the planet - we do not put toxins in the air and have reduced the amount we send to our dumps.
But they do pay you for it.
The kicker is because they pay you for it,it is considered a commodity and exempt from EPA regulations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
You forgot the part where the $700 million was to save 22,000 union jobs,dumb ass chump,gave em $700 million to save 22,000 union jobs and then the union turned around and threatened strike and put them into bankruptcy,or at least pushed them over the edge and sealed their fate.
The $700 million went to pay the union members during the pandemic,if it went solely to the benefit of Yellow they would have never had to claim bankruptcy.
The end result is the largest trucking company in the country is now bankrupt.
22,000 union members have lost their jobs.
The cost of delivered goods in this country will now rise for everybody.
Imagine 100s of thousands of packages that were in transit all across the country,that are now sitting in limbo.
Gotta love the power of a threatened strike it always ends so well.
Look at the bigger picture without looking at how things are done today concerning how vehicles and parts are flipped back and forth across the border.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Which are not really a true picture of economics.
Every manufacturer that is transitioning into EVs across the world,is setting up for self contained production and creating localized facilities.
Like I posted the amount of parts and labor to build an EV versus an ICE vehicle,is 60% less then ICE.
Look at the future ramifications in Michigan if you had that reduction of everything that revolves around ICE in the state.
You will not even have that cross border auto production with Canada any more.
You will not be exporting cars to Canada and Canada will not be exporting cars to the U.S.
Every EV built will be built for that specific regional market.
GMs built in Michigan and in other factories across the country will be built for the U.S market,GMs built in China will be built for the Chinese market.
The only country that currently dominates the EV market world wide and nobody that can compete with,is China.
There are start up companies in Europe that have already pulled out of the game because there is no way they can compete with China.
The only way Canadas automotive sector can compete is by only build cars for the Canadian market and to cut costs eliminating the cost of shipping parts.
Think Henry Ford and Zug Island ,that is what they are gearing up for.
Their objective is 50% by 2030,the automotive manufacturers have already said it is no way possible.
But the feds are giving zero leeway in emission regulations,so on their end they have already timed so ICE will be so expensive to own most will have no choice but to switch over.
It will be irrelevant at that point weather EVs are on the lots ready to sell.
The previous administration did pull back some of the emission requirements in order to allow the manufacturers to phase in EVs or to buy them time anyways.
But that was immediately reversed with the current administration.
Mr Lego man and nucky can make all the jokes they want but it does not change the reality of what is coming up really fast and the impact it will have on Michigan.
Canada knows that,the current leadership in Michigan knows that.
That is why they are trying to join forces and operate as one unit in order to combat it.
You guys more then anybody else knows what happens when your local economy is devastated by the automotive sector.
What do you guys think it will look like when you loose 60% of your automotive trade and cross border trade with Canada.
Same goes with Canada,they already have the good end of the stick as it is,but they are also looking at losing 60% trade revenue with Michigan.
You are talking about removing billions of dollars from your economy in a matter of a few years along with the jobs that supported it.
That is the reality of it.
That leaves few options,pray to god that somebody gets into DC that is not EV motivated and buys the manufacturers time to phase into EVs versus cold Turkey.
Or the state needs to figure out a plan B and really fast.
You care about Michigan,I care about Michigan because we are all in this together,but if you guys think that for one second that the ones that are agenda based hard and fast will not throw under the bus or sacrifice Michigan in the name of the greater good,guess again.
You are only useful to them if you can meet their demands,if you cannot they will throw trillions at another state in order to do so.
So now it the time to figure it out,people can joke all they want or post music memes but outside of we are stronger United in this country verses fighting back and forth,personally I am not the one that will be suffering the direct consequences or the city and state I live in is not fighting for its future existence.
You guys have been through this before,and that was a teaser in comparison to what is coming. You have to figure it out before it happens.
They are not producing cars when it comes to EVs they are creating technology and technology becomes obsolete fast,the EVs of today are the IPhone 3 ,5 years from now they will be on IPhone 11 so any production facility built today will be obsolete in 5 years or lose any competitive edge,the billions spent on building battery technology and factories today will be obsolete before they are even finished building them.
What is even worse is an EV sold today will have the same value as an IPhone 3,5 years from now,worthless before it is paid for.
That was probably it.Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
Anyway, something hapend then along the lines of wages going up, pensions doing something, and the Canadian dollar being about on par with the US instead of 1.3 - 1, so it was no longer beneficial to make cars there. They even shuttered a big plant or two.
It looks like the CAD dollar has dropped a ton. With all the money printing going on in the US 2 and 3 years ago, you'd think the CAD should be stronger than the USD, but instead it's back to 1.3 - 1. Canada must be running the printing presses full time.
So perhaps the new bridge will get used after all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Sure, the wages are still lower in Canada when you factor in the American dollar. The manufacturing sector is a tad bigger percentage wise in Canada than the US because of it. For
US companies operating in Canada, it’s a good margin to exploit. It’s more
complicated for Canadian companies, manufacturers in particular when it comes to purchasing equipment overseas or across the border with a lower currency.
There is however the fact that most jurisdictions in the US demand a high percentage of American assembly to finished products in certain sectors. Quebec companies operating in the US such as Bombardier build trains and aircraft in the US. One such company; Lion Electric builds electric trucks and buses for the North American market but had to build a factory in suburban Chicago to respect US assembly quotas. It is the largest electric truck factory in the US.
So, it works both ways, Canadian companies provide employment on your side, too.
This graphic from 2012 [[admittedly 10 years out of date) suggests a different story that the one you think happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Attachment 42744
Michigan's jobs did not go north, they went south.
To Tennesse, and rest of the U.S. south in some measure, and principally to Mexico.
That said, Ontario/Canada which has also seen a decline in Auto Manufacturing employment is stabilizing, but that, is frankly a function of the same corporate welfare that goes on in your own country. Sinking billions in subsidies into new/refurbished plants.
The new Volkswagen Electric Battery Plant being built outside St.Thomas, and another by Stellantis will cost Canadian Taxpayers a combined ~30 Billion CAD. Which, for the record, is nuts.
The reason, for those subsidies though is a direct dollar match for the subsidies being offered by your own Federal Government in the dubiously named 'Inflation Reduction Act'.
The subsidy deals literally tie the benefits to those offered above.
Wouldn't it be swell if governments on both sides of the border let manufacturer's pay for their own factories?
Meanwhile, should their really be Free Trade with Mexico, where the minimum wage is $12.35 USD, per Day.
Near the U.S. border it is $18.60 USD per Day
Or $2.33 USD per hour.
The last version of NAFTA/USMCA did require a certain percentage of Mexican Auto Mfg [[40%) jobs pay a minimum of $16 per hour.
Any wonder then that Canadian and US gov'ts have to hand out billions to keep jobs ?
Michigan did not lose jobs to southern U.S.,the forien companies that established there entered the market and created jobs where they did not exist.
In 2019 the Honda Ridgeline was the only truck in the United States that was built in the U.S. using American made parts.
Michigan lost jobs because the local Michigan manufacturers moved production of parts and some vehicles to Mexico.
So it was a combination of losing market share to the manufacturers in the south and sending the jobs that they did have locally to Mexico.
The only way you can alter those results is by placing tariffs,but as we seen it is racist to place tariffs in order to protect jobs in America or at the very least make it a level playing field.
So the reason Michigan lost jobs and parts of the rest of country is because the people choose politics over jobs.
The fantasy of free trade does not work unless you are equal trading partners,in theory we could do free trade with Canada but definitely not Mexico.
But when we place restrictions on trade from un equal trading partners,they circumvent it by selling it to Canada who then sells it to us.
So then we have to put tariffs on Canada.
The government getting involved in manufacturing in this country was what helped destroy it,by regulating everything they can think of which in turn increases cost,which forces manufacturers to manufacture elsewhere in order to cut costs.
Those countries do not care about saving the planet,they care about eating,just like in this country,if you are sitting there wondering how you are going to feed your family,you are going to have different priorities.
We cannot blame the government,or Mexico or China,we the people made our own bed and most Americans could really care less if their neighbors can feed their families,as long as they can feed theirs.
We are receiving exactly what we demanded ,clear sky’s and empty bank accounts was the cause and effect.
We actually did not achieve anything but to move the dirty stuff to another country,that we are downwind of anyways and lost jobs in the process.
We are capitalist but we are turning more and more into a socialist society when it comes to our jobs while destroying the concept of free enterprise.
The markets do not dictate who owns what as in a free market or even free enterprise,the government has interjected itself so far into corporations it actually controls who survives or not and who gets subsidized.
Refer to the civil war and the first thing that people think of is it was solely about freeing the slaves when it was not.
At that time the industrial north who was purchasing raw materials from the south tried to dictate to the south the rates they will pay for those materials,in order to increase their profits.
The south being as a majority agriculture and rural was poor already and the north was looking to drive down or have the ability to regulate what they could sell their goods for.
It’s no different today but it is not between the north and the south it is between other countries as trading partners and the goal is fair and balanced trade,it should be but we are also subsidizing production in those countries at the cost of U.S. jobs.
That’s the thing,people want better wages,people want good paying jobs,people want job security,people want to manufacture in the U.S. and Canada which creates those jobs.
But people also want cheap products,so as long as I can save a few bucks,why should I care if people in Michigan eat from one day to the next or have jobs.
That’s what people fail to comprehend,we are all in the same boat,if Michigan sucks,we all suck.
A lot of it has to do with the size of our country,if you are in Florida it is easy to think that Michigan is some foreign country stuck way up there that has zero impact on our daily lives,but it does.
People forget that most of the countries we compare ourselves to in Europe and Scandinavia are the size of one of our states.
They can accomplish what we cannot because they are small and it is easy to create unity in the population towards common goals.
We could do that if we were actually the United States,but we spend more time in keeping it a Divided States so every state becomes a country on its own.
This country has the capability to produce enough goods and create jobs and have enough left over to have fair trade with other countries,there is no reason in the world that Michigan has to trade with Canada in order to survive at a reduced cost or Canada has to trade with Michigan for the same reason.
For what ever reason there are people that want to keep us divided into groups and not become United and we eat it up like candy,but when that sugar rush is over and we are sleeping under a bridge or having to make a career choice that pays $15 per hour,then we bitch because we are only making $15 per hour.
We the people control our own destiny and until we stop with all of its us verses them and become United we get what we deserve.
That is a sign of good leadership in politics,creating a United force,but we vote for and choose politicians that keep us divided,so we get what we ask for.
The ones that are really benefiting from it all are the socialists and commies and progressives that are destroying our way of life because we are letting them and giving them all the ammunition they need in order to do so.
We are the ones selling our own country out.
In business Michigan is not friends with Canada and Canada is going to do what is best for the Canadian as they should and Michigan needs to do what is best for Michigan and the United States that they are also a part of.
These kumbaya moments of let’s join forces between Michigan and Canada is a load of crap,you can do trade deals that benefit both parties equally without losing site of the fact that you are competitors in two totally separate countries.
Why does Canada need to ink a deal with Michigan that intertwines Michigan with Canada?
I thought there was educated people in Canada that were capable of innovation ?
Canada has never been dependent on Michigan and Michigan has never been dependent on Canada outside of trade,outside of that trade why do they need to join forces as one ?
Unless of course a progressive Canada is looking at a progressive Michigan in order to gain a stronger foothold in this country in order to further their agenda,then it becomes more understandable.
It’s business,they are not your friend.
You can buy a Mercedes -German , Fiat/Chrysler - Italian , etc but you cannot buy à Canuckmobile because they do not know how to build their own cars?
When you look at it for what it is - business,who needs who more and who should have the upper hand at the negotiating table?
The numbers do not lie and clearly show who is actually being taken for a ride and being abused.
The reality is at the end of the day,Canada could care less if workers in Michigan eat or not,they are going to always do what is in their best interests.
Canada is a prime example of where the United States is heading,when you remove free enterprise from the equation,you remove innovation and then you have to look to join others who have something you no longer have.
Thats why Canada needs to join innovative forces with Michigan,because they already destroyed it in Canada and without innovation,you starve.
But in the future that same mindset will drain Michigan of its innovation and ability to remain cutting edge in order to compete and in order to compete Michigan will then have to sell goods at a lower cost and ends up being another Mexico or other low wage country.