Germany's Historic Preservation/Restoration

I know that technically this thread doesn't belong in Detroit Issues.... [[Non-Detroit can be so juvenile)... but from a purely historic preservation standpoint, giving a glimpse of European preservation [[done mainly by government and donations) versus the USA, where it's mainly businesses with government tax credits and other subsidies makes for an interesting study.

I was astonished to learn that after 60 years... with the 1990 reunification of Berlin [[and Germany)... that the war damaged and later destroyed Berlin Town Palace of the German Emperors/Prussian Kings [[war damage could have been restored, but instead it was destroyed by the Soviets in 1950).... well this former palace is today being reconstructed.

This nearly $800 million project is being funded by the German Parliament, Berlin City government and private donations for completion in 2013.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtschloss,_Berlin

This huge reconstruction of mainly the outer walls of the huge palace, plus a few historic interior rooms, with the remainder being modern... is to house art and antiquities museums [[not that Berlin doesn't already have a mind boggling number of museums), part of a university, the city main library, and shops and restaurants.

A lot of architects are pissed off about this "pastiche" reconstruction, but enough didn't boycott the rebuilding competition, so as to give some nice designs. Here's the winner...
http://able2know.org/topic/126172-1

This massive recreation of the Berlin Town Palace is the 2nd major German historic recreation work of the 21st Century.... the first being the rebuilding of Dresden's historic Frauenkirche, a church whose dome is about as tall as Detroit's Broderick Tower. This chuch is the Lutheran Cathedral of the city [[it was the largest Lutheran church in Germany until the night of Feb.14, 1945 when Dresden was firebombed)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche

Ironically a lot of money collected for the restoration of the cathedral was donated by the British. Many of the WWII British bomber pilots had major remorse after that fateful night in February 1945, when they destroyed the non-military "Athens on the River Elbe", and killed over 150,000 [[mainly elderly, women and children) in a massive firebomb that sucked all the oxygen out of the air and caused mainly suffocation among the doomed populace.

The restoration of the Dresden Semper Opera [[finished in 1985), the Dresden Cathedral [[in 2005) and now the rebuilding of the Berlin Town Palace... these restorations have inspired a lot of other projects throughout Europe.
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It is interesting to note that many of Detroit's more historic ruins cause Europeans to shake their collective heads in disbelief... because if some of these buildings [[such as the MCS, Michigan, United Artists and National Theatres) were located in Europe, they would have been well on their way to restoration.

But sadly many Americans don't have as much pride in their architecture as Europeans do. Also, American's have a hard enough time maintaining our infrastructure, let alone historic preservation. And American's are averse to paying extra taxes for such frivolity. :[[

I guess if we had a 2,000 year history... maybe we would appreciate it more...

Your comment about many of our buildings would be on their way to restoration I disagree with. It would be very likely they never would've rotted to the degree they already have, if in Europe.

Any friends I've ever taken around Detroit from Europe, and even from some well perserved cities around the US such as St. Louis shake their heads in amazment at the urban carnage that is Detroit, and the near total lack of any well preserved neighborhoods of any size.

They don't even know the half of it, because so much has been torn down. So I grab my copy of W. Hawkins Ferry book on Detroit architecture, where upon their jaws drop in amazement.

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Originally Posted by mikefmich

Your comment about many of our buildings would be on their way to restoration I disagree with. It would be very likely they never would've rotted to the degree they already have, if in Europe.

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You make a good point... in the USA it is "rotting".... in Europe it is "war damage".

It's amazing. Americans have long traveled to Europe to see their amazing cities, yet we had built up this country emulating their grandeur at a much larger scale. We never knew it was all rotting away in our own backyard. Its seems in this pre-manufactured world of buildings we've lost alot of our interest in details. Superior materials and craftsmanship come at premium price, not to mention the labor.

$800 million? We could spend that kind of money too if we were not footing the bill to have american soldiers protecting Germany [[though who is going to invade it?), or helping out in places like Hati, or getting life saving drugs to Africa.

What is more important? People or things?

I share the comments at the top of the thread. I just returned from an amazing week in Poland, and it was astonishing to see what that country has done with so much less money than is available in the United States. Old Town and New Town Warszawa have been reconstructed brick-by-brick since 1945, and is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Gdansk, where World War II began, was completely bombed-out, and has been reconstructed to magnificent grandeur. The castle of the Teutonic Knights at Malbork continues to undergo restoration work.

But of course, we have to use our money to build more freeways, more cheap plastic subdivisions, and buy more Chinese junk at Walmart.

It's a shame that it looks like the Nazis bombed Detroit vis-a-vis Poland. We are a proud nation, but we have no pride in ourselves. To answer DetroitPlanner's question, America has spoken, and it has chosen "things".

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

It's a shame that it looks like the Nazis bombed Detroit vis-a-vis Poland. We are a proud nation, but we have no pride in ourselves. To answer DetroitPlanner's question, America has spoken, and it has chosen "things".

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US Policy has always put people before things. Like it or not, but if it wasn't for the United States helping Europe after WW-2 Europe would look like Detroit.

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of "empire building" by George Bush.

He answered by saying, "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

We have continued these policies even though it flies in the face of 'logic'. We give billions to support medical and disaster relief everywhere yet we don't help our own poor.

It may be illogical, but never say that our culure chooses things over people or that we have no pride. You may have no pride, but to many we try do the right thing, as unpopular as it may be. We do so at the expense of our own.

Much of Europe's recent development has been designed around the expressway and the Ikea, I am not buying your arguement.

If anyone's ever in Berlin and interested in this type of thing, I highly recommend the Neues Museum. It was originally built in the mid-19th century, heavily damaged in the war, and left rotting and open to the elements by the East German government while they scraped together the money to restore it. Just as work was finally starting in the late 1980s, the government collapsed, and the restoration was put on hold for another ten years. It finally reopened last fall, and I love what they did with it. The scars from the bombing were deliberately left intact, and the gaps were filled in with contrasting material so it's obvious what is original and what is new. I was so fascinated by what they did with the building I forgot to look at most of the actual exhibits. :)

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Originally Posted by Gistok

... if some of these buildings [[such as the MCS, Michigan, United Artists and National Theatres) were located in Europe, they would have been well on their way to restoration.

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And what would Europe look like if it were populated by the people of Detroit?

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Originally Posted by Retroit

And what would Europe look like if it were populated by the people of Detroit?

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Detroiters are people like anybody else.

So are Berliners.

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Originally Posted by Retroit

So are Berliners.

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Ding ding ding! Maybe there's hope for you after all.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

$800 million? We could spend that kind of money too if we were not footing the bill to have american soldiers protecting Germany [[though who is going to invade it?), or helping out in places like Hati, or getting life saving drugs to Africa.

What is more important? People or things?

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Last time I checked Europeans also contribute huge sums to world relief efforts, so that is a moot point.

As for American soldiers still in Germany... that's a good question... why? One reason is that all our serious war wounded from Iraq and Afghanistan are sent to the world class American Hospital in Wiesbaden Germany.

We spend hundreds of billions on a war in Iraq, and then the Chinese get the big business contracts... go figure?

For being the richest country in the world [[at least for now).... we sure don't have a lot to show for it, what with many our cities and general infrastructure crumbling.

Time to rethink our priorities...

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Time to rethink our priorities...

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I'd agree, with this and everything you said. We have disfunctional policies. Malaria, TB, or HIV meds in developing countries are given away using US tax dollars, but the cost for those needing them here will bankrupt a family.

We tax gas by the gallon to use it for transportation. This is not really disfunctional by itself, but when the feds mandate high gas mileage, the taxes neeeded to fund transit and roads go down, making them unsustainable. High gas prices also force more people to use transit, and drive less. But if they drive less, then the amount needed to fund transit goes down.

You see this everywhere, the feds did not build a monument to WW-2 until after most of the soldiers had died of old age, yet the Vietnam Memorial was up about ten years after the war ended.

We hold the secretary of interior's historic preservation guidelines as a golden rule but woefully underfund the National Parks Service and other programs within the department that should set the examples for others to follow.

I am just quoting spmething I posted on another thread about rehabbing important buildings in the city.
Germany and Japan got to be the 2nd and third largest economies in the world. One would think that a lot of the Marshall plan money went to heavy industry reconstruction but you can imagine that your butchershops and shoestores and other businesses werent started from nothing. Where did the money come from?

This is from the Marshall Plan descripion in Wikipedia under the Heading: Repayment

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European Recovery Program loans were mostly used to support small- and medium-sized businesses. Germany paid the US back in installments [[the last check was handed over in June 1971). However, the money was not paid from the ERP fund, but from the central government budget.

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Both Canada and the US and other wealthy countries are pretty creative when it comes to giving gifts of money or technical or material support. A lot of times these programs mean that local agricultural production can no longer be sustained because of costs to the producer. These poisoned gifts are disguised subsidies to producers in wealthy countries. We can spend our money in wiser ways and instead play God in our own countries especially in cities like Detroit.

re Retroit: As for Europeans and what they would do if Detroit were theirs, A great many folks who came to Detroit during the 20th century were European immigrants. You should ask them why they left the ship. I think that maybe its a better idea to look forward instead of accusing one another in situations like this. Looking at what happened, at segregation and all the unpleasant stuff squarely, but to act on the evidence. Montreal lost 300,000 folks after the Quebec referendum in 1980. We had a lot of adjusting to do. A new city had to be reinvented in a sense. There are those who will always find fault with one of the major linguistic groups much like the black white issue in the D. I have some of these reflexes myself with the narrower minded anglos or the french nationalists, and I understand the struggle but it is unproductive to dwell on the past bigotry if nothing is done to correct the situation.

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It is interesting to note that many of Detroit's more historic ruins cause Europeans to shake their collective heads in disbelief... because if some of these buildings [[such as the MCS, Michigan, United Artists and National Theatres) were located in Europe, they would have been well on their way to restoration.

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It is sad but most Americans don't know or simply don't care about history. We are a forward-thinking people at least in the majority. The American version of progress is simply to tear down and build again.

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Originally Posted by Patrick

It is sad but most Americans don't know or simply don't care about history. We are a forward-thinking people at least in the majority. The American version of progress is simply to tear down and build again.

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Put what you said in another sense.....generally speaking, how does our society today tend to our seniors?

About the same way we tend to our history/architecture/ heritage. Not very much respect.

In the first post of this thread I provided this link:

http://able2know.org/topic/126172-1

Well I didn't explore all the comments that came after the article... some showed other [[losing) architectural rendings for the rebuild of the Berlin Town Palace... another reply showed other German buildings that were recreated.

But at the bottom of the page [[thread) there are links to other buildings around the world... among them this very bizzare building that looks like a cross between Antonio Gaudi and Frank Gehry.... check out all the pics farther down on this thread page....
http://able2know.org/topic/121040-1

Wow... absolutely wow! :eek:

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

$800 million? We could spend that kind of money too if we were not footing the bill to have american soldiers protecting Germany [[though who is going to invade it?), or helping out in places like Hati, or getting life saving drugs to Africa.

What is more important? People or things?

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That's a false choice, between people or things. We can take care of people and still have enough left over for historic preservation. It's all about how we allocate our funds and the decisions that we make.

How much have we spent in one freeway expansion after another?

How much have we as a state spent supporting "economic development" in parts of Michigan with more cows than people?

How much have we wasted on one political boondoggle after another? [[The $19 million spent of the Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley project comes screaming to mind, but there have been scores of others.)

Then, of course, there are historic preservation projects, such as the Old Tiger Stadium or the Lafayette Building, where the only thing that were actively blocked the DEGC - just so we could have a nice patch of undeveloped dirt.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

I
It is interesting to note that many of Detroit's more historic ruins cause Europeans to shake their collective heads in disbelief... because if some of these buildings [[such as the MCS, Michigan, United Artists and National Theatres) were located in Europe, they would have been well on their way to restoration.

But sadly many Americans don't have as much pride in their architecture as Europeans do. Also, American's have a hard enough time maintaining our infrastructure, let alone historic preservation. And American's are averse to paying extra taxes for such frivolity. :[[

I guess if we had a 2,000 year history... maybe we would appreciate it more...

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Nail meets head!
Hense my fascination with Detroit. As a European citizen I also have a total lack of understanding why so much monumental buildings are failing. If you don't maintain the buildings, it's decay spread like wildfire, or in many cases just fire...