Does Metro Detroit really need a healthy Detroit?

There is always this talk that metropolitan regions need a healthy core city, or overtime the metro region will go the way of the declining inner city.

However do any of you really think that is true? For almost 50 years Metro Detroit has been prospering while the City of Detroit has declined.

The same can be said for countless American cities, where the inner city has rotted while the suburbs have continued to grow and offer a great quality of life.

Despite decay in the inner city, Metro Detroit has remained one of the top metropolitan regions in the country. With higher family incomes, top notch business, a diverse economy, and stable and even growing population in the metro region. Metro Detroit is expected to grow to over 6 million people in the next 20 years.

I was just in Detroit yesterday and everytime I go, I just don't see decay spreading to the suburbs. Yes some suburbs become less popular as they age. But that happens in cities with strong cores, and overtime those suburbs become popular again as the old timers move on, etc.

So do you guys really think the health of the region relies on the health of the core city?
Metro Detroit seems to be doing very well. And even with all this talk about the economy, if one removes the city of Detroit from the stats, one can see that

-Metro Detroit's unemployment rate is not much different from the national avereage.
-The economy is pretty diverse.
-The region enjoys high incomes

Some stats from wikipedia[[while not the best source) touch on how well Metro Detroit is doing.


-"Metro Detroit has made Michigan's economy a leader in information technology, biotechnology, and advanced manufacturing; Michigan ranks fourth nationally in high tech employment with 568,000 high tech workers, including 70,000 in the automotive industry.

-Michigan typically ranks second or third in overall Research & development [[R&D) expenditures in the United States.Metro Detroit is an important source of engineering job opportunities."

-"Wayne State University in Detroit has the largest single-campus medical school in the United States."


-"In 2004, led by Metro Detroit, Michigan ranked second nationally in new corporate facilities and expansions. From 1997 to 2004, Michigan was the only state to top the 10,000 mark for the number of major new developments. Metro Detroit is a leading corporate location "

Looks like things are are pretty good in Metro Detroit.

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Originally Posted by miketoronto1

There is always this talk that metropolitan regions need a healthy core city, or overtime the metro region will go the way of the declining inner city.

However do any of you really think that is true? For almost 50 years Metro Detroit has been prospering while the City of Detroit has declined.

The same can be said for countless American cities, where the inner city has rotted while the suburbs have continued to grow and offer a great quality of life.

Despite decay in the inner city, Metro Detroit has remained one of the top metropolitan regions in the country. With higher family incomes, top notch business, a diverse economy, and stable and even growing population in the metro region. Metro Detroit is expected to grow to over 6 million people in the next 20 years.

I was just in Detroit yesterday and everytime I go, I just don't see decay spreading to the suburbs. Yes some suburbs become less popular as they age. But that happens in cities with strong cores, and overtime those suburbs because popular again as the old timers move on, etc.

So do you guys really think the health of the region relies on the health of the core city?
Metro Detroit seems to be doing very well. And even with all this talk about the economy, if one removes the city of Detroit from the stats, one can see that

-Metro Detroit's unemployment rate is not much different from the national avereage.
-The economy is pretty diverse.
-The region enjoys high incomes

Some stats from wikipedia[[while not the best source) touch on how well Metro Detroit is doing.


-"Metro Detroit has made Michigan's economy a leader in information technology, biotechnology, and advanced manufacturing; Michigan ranks fourth nationally in high tech employment with 568,000 high tech workers, including 70,000 in the automotive industry.

-Michigan typically ranks second or third in overall Research & development [[R&D) expenditures in the United States.Metro Detroit is an important source of engineering job opportunities."

-"Wayne State University in Detroit has the largest single-campus medical school in the United States."


-"In 2004, led by Metro Detroit, Michigan ranked second nationally in new corporate facilities and expansions. From 1997 to 2004, Michigan was the only state to top the 10,000 mark for the number of major new developments. Metro Detroit is a leading corporate location "

Looks like things are are pretty good in Metro Detroit.

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Maybe its just me, but to me it seems as if you think things are looking good in metro Detroit, it's becuase you simply choose and arbitrarily select your criteria that defines whaty makes the Metro [[minus Detroit as you pointd out) "good".....

Population growth in the metro area has largely been stagnant since the Seventies. Per-capita incomes in the state have been falling relative to the rest of the country [[top ten in 1990, down to 16 or so in 2000, down to thirtysomething today). The metro area hasn't really been prospering.

Does Metro Detroit really need a healthy Detroit?

I don't know. How about this? Let's blow up WaterWorks and see if Metro Detroit can survive.

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes or anything, but a lot of people think the suburbs are pretty, well, boring. Even if things were different in the region as a whole from an economic perspective, the suburbs would be a pretty stagnant environment for some people - "creative types," as it were, and that's not so much my moniker as one I have encountered elsewhere. So what you end up with is a lot of these people leaving, and some just accepting limited options for avoiding an uninspiring environment if they're going to stay close to home or what-have-you. Which then sort of allows you to circle back and say that even if things are pretty good now from an economic perspective [[as has already been disputed), without creative thinkers in the region its economic actors will start to stagnate sooner or later.

I would say that any region where 1/4 of the population lives in a failed city and many of those people in the city live in poverty doesn't mean any definition of "prosperous" or "healthy" or "successful".

As for comparing Detroit to other regions, being "stable" which I don't even think is true, really means your falling behind. Places like Atlanta and Charlotte and Dallas are killing the Detroit Metro region in many of the metrics that matter.

I have always assumed that a Metro region needed a healthy core to prosper. Despite the contrary evidence you proffer in your question, I still say that it does. The reason I think that is because major cities are draws- for both talent and investment. My evidence is anecdotal, but it is almost unarguable that concentrated money attracts more money and interest.

That said, pretend that Metro Detroit became M-D City, thus unifying all of the independent suburban communities under a single banner, and for the sake of argument "Detroit" does not exist. Would M-D City be prosperous? Possibly. The flaw in this hypo is that Metro Detroit is fractured, not unified and each community has competing interests, the same way each community presently competes against Detroit.

By the same token, major cities compete with one another for talent and investment. Boston vs. Seattle, Chicago vs. Houston, NYC vs. L.A., etc. The city that wins is the city with the most to offer the prospective talent and investment. Detroit City was a major contender in that arena, and still punches in a higher weight class that it would seem. If M-D City were to be successful without Detroit, it would have to be unified to compete with the other large players, otherwise it wouldn't be able to hold its own. For instance, the City of Troy alone does not have the clout or resources to compete with Philidelphia for talent and investment, however, a unified M-D City might and a healthy City of Detroit surely would.

The reason unification is critical, is not only to prevent infighting, which leads to mutual decline, but because amenities and resources must be shared, common goals set, and large-scale efforts easily formed and pressed. That is, what is good for M-D City is good for all of M-D City; there is little to no resistance. As it stands, what is good for the City of Birmingham is likely bad for the City of Northville. A good example of this is the M1 rail line, which is good for the City of Detroit, but not viewed as good for the City of Southfield, which creates opposition between neighboring governments and a lack of regional cooperation.

Specifically, I think Metro Detroit has had the appearance of doing well because of how much wealth accumulated in the region over the past 100 years from a successful automobile based economy. Even during the 1990s, money was still pouring into the Big 3. Therefore, it may be too early to tell whether or not Metro Detroit in particular needs a healthy core to prosper. I would suggest that present trends like a stagnant or decreasing regional population, disinvestment, and heavy unemployment suggest that the region is losing opportunities to other major cities because it is not competitive. When old money dies, it must be replaced.

For Metro Detroit to remain viable, it must compete at a national and international level to maintain the flow of incoming talent and investment. Competing means offering the amenities and environment that is attractive to talent and investment. Some examples include infrastructure, mass transit, class A office space, economically friendly policies, environmentally friendly policies, an educated and progressive local population, recreation, quality housing stock, and importantly, a well-recognized city to associate with for corporate branding, image, and prestige. The viability of a fractured Metro Detroit likely cannot bring those things to the table the way Chicago can. Potentially, M-D City could, but then that answers your question. M-D City in fact becomes the healthy core.

So, no, Metro Detroit cannot remain healthy for long without a healthy Detroit City. IMO, the region has two options to survive. [[1) Rebuild the City of Detroit, which already has the makings of a major a city and international name recognition, or [[2) Totally abandon Detroit City, and focus on uniting the suburban communities, which must include the building of a central business district, transit, and a governing body with undivided goals and objectives. Otherwise, the smaller communities, especially those separated by county, will eat each other alive fighting over the scraps, while bigger fish pass on by.

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Originally Posted by fryar

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes or anything, but a lot of people think the suburbs are pretty, well, boring. Even if things were different in the region as a whole from an economic perspective, the suburbs would be a pretty stagnant environment for some people - "creative types," as it were, and that's not so much my moniker as one I have encountered elsewhere. So what you end up with is a lot of these people leaving, and some just accepting limited options for avoiding an uninspiring environment if they're going to stay close to home or what-have-you. Which then sort of allows you to circle back and say that even if things are pretty good now from an economic perspective [[as has already been disputed), without creative thinkers in the region its economic actors will start to stagnate sooner or later.

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NOTE: The "arts, music, and culture" crowd are not the same as the "creative thinkers" that lead to new industries and new ideas.

Absolutely. I live in Warren but work in Detroit. We need Detroit, and Detroit needs us. We need to strengthen the bond between Detroit and the suburbs with a mass transit system [[light-rail above\below grade).

I guess this invokes a question: Why was Silicon Alley not located in downtown San Fran? Why are Microsoft and Boeing not in downtown Seattle? In this day and age of digital electronic communications, do we need a "central business district"?

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Originally Posted by Hermod

NOTE: The "arts, music, and culture" crowd are not the same as the "creative thinkers" that lead to new industries and new ideas.

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Even the "creative thinkers" are leaving, if for nothing else, just the simple fact that tehey can't find a job here.

http://detnews.com/article/20090403/...-flee-Michigan

It's not hard to figure out what's the strong point of where most of them are headed.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I guess this invokes a question: Why was Silicon Alley not located in downtown San Fran? Why are Microsoft and Boeing not in downtown Seattle? In this day and age of digital electronic communications, do we need a "central business district"?

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Apples and Oranges [[even you know that).

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I guess this invokes a question: Why was Silicon Alley not located in downtown San Fran? Why are Microsoft and Boeing not in downtown Seattle? In this day and age of digital electronic communications, do we need a "central business district"?

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I lived in Silicon Valley and Silicon Valley is classified as a region that mainly the South Bay. Silicon Valley may not been in downtown San Francisco but you can count downtown San Jose as being a part of Silicon Valley

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I guess this invokes a question: Why was Silicon Alley not located in downtown San Fran? Why are Microsoft and Boeing not in downtown Seattle? In this day and age of digital electronic communications, do we need a "central business district"?

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I think so. Our road infrastructure is designed with downtown Detroit as the hub. All major non-spur freeways go right through downtown [[or pretty damn close). All major arteries [[Grand River, Woodward, Gratiot, Fort, etc..) all lead to one place, downtown.

Detroit is at the beginning of a re-birth. While we may not like or fully agree with the likes of Penske, Karmanos, or Gilbert, they are starting something. They have committed to leading the way for business leaders to revitalize the city that ties together the entire region.

Detroit is in shambles today, but as the region de-segregates both racially and through social economics it will improve.

Racism has kept the city down, both in history and in its present. However, the main source of racism in present day is the racism that blacks have for themselves. Yes, slavery has put you at a disadvantage. Yes, racism beyond slavery has put you at a disadvantage. Martin Luther King would be furious to see the state of black America. He fought so that blacks could have equal opportunity to succeed, and the youngest black generations seem to be more interested in gang-banging, thuggery, basketball, and make kids as teenagers. No responsibility and no expectations. I have a couple friends that live in Detroit proper and they both happen to be grandmothers raising their grandchildren.

At the same time, whites need to step up to the plate too, and realize that this region can't survive without Detroit. Whites have to realize that while this country has advanced in terms of fighting racism, it still exists, just to a lesser extent. Whites\suburbanites need to invest in Detroit and work with Detroit.

I look forward to the day when 8-Mile is just a road instead of a racial and economic dividing line.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I guess this invokes a question: Why was Silicon Alley not located in downtown San Fran? Why are Microsoft and Boeing not in downtown Seattle? In this day and age of digital electronic communications, do we need a "central business district"?

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Boeing moved its worldwide HQ to downtown Chicago.

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Originally Posted by canuck

Boeing moved its worldwide HQ to downtown Chicago.

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After even considering Detroit for a minute becuase of Willow Run. But due to certain factors like no good transit systema nd OC making bad remarks about that other county, they saw the lack of regionalism and decided to go to schicao....

The region is hurting...
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...-tax-proposals :[[

The reason the burbs have a higher income average is because a lot of the wealth moved out of Detroit after the riots. It is not like the suburbs just came out of no where with their own money, it all derives from Detroit.

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Originally Posted by 48091

Racism has kept the city down, both in history and in its present. However, the main source of racism in present day is the racism that blacks have for themselves. Yes, slavery has put you at a disadvantage. Yes, racism beyond slavery has put you at a disadvantage. Martin Luther King would be furious to see the state of black America. He fought so that blacks could have equal opportunity to succeed, and the youngest black generations seem to be more interested in gang-banging, thuggery, basketball, and make kids as teenagers. No responsibility and no expectations. I have a couple friends that live in Detroit proper and they both happen to be grandmothers raising their grandchildren.

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Broad brush much? Sheesh.

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Originally Posted by English

Broad brush much? Sheesh.

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English, just smile and wave... :)

As time goes on, people won't see that as a race issue. One of my high school [[Livonia Stevenson) friends is wasting his life trying to be gangster. The guy is a genius and is currently throwing it all away.

Since all of this is really just opinion anyway, I thought 48091 delivered a reasoned perspective.

Quoting news articles is like pissing into the wind, whether they say good or bad things about the city. Unfortunately, at least to me, most printed news isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Ditto for commercial TV.

Detroit still has something, Je ne sais quois, [[sorry, my french is very rusty) that attracts attention whether it be possitive or negative. Look at who started this thread, Mike from Toronto.

In the past few months/years, an amazing amount of posters are from other parts of the country/other continents post here looking for the "real" story. Generally starts with, I've never been there but...

Gets a bit stale.

I forget which rag sent people to live here and haven't seen a decent tale yet.

The business world thinks it does. In fact I believe as do many others that the divide between Detroit and it's burbs is also a reason why Detroit struggles to get investment.

The view from the business world is that the region is dysfunctional [[I like to say disfucktional) and they want to avoid any issues should a business locate there.

In fact Deiter Zeitche formerly of Daimler-Chrysler had stated the exact same thing to the media.

It is also a reason why many businesses are leaving China. The politics and difficulties of working there aren't worth the savings to many companies.

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Originally Posted by GOAT

The business world thinks it does. In fact I believe as do many others that the divide between Detroit and it's burbs is also a reason why Detroit struggles to get investment.

The view from the business world is that the region is dysfunctional [[I like to say disfucktional) and they want to avoid any issues should a business locate there.

In fact Deiter Zeitche formerly of Daimler-Chrysler had stated the exact same thing to the media.

It is also a reason why many businesses are leaving China. The politics and difficulties of working there aren't worth the savings to many companies.

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Great point.

Succinct, not slanted towards one county or one side of 8, bullseye.