Unable to steer friends towards Big 3.

[darwinism]

It has been frustrating for me lately, as I have not been very successful in convincing my circle of friends to buy a Big 3 product.

I have tried my best to 'sell' the Big 3, but unfortunately the Big 3 are just at a disadvantage because of the way they do business.

To start, here are a couple of issues that I found to be hindering my ability to succeed:

1) As I had mentioned in the other GM or Ford threads here on DetroitYes, the GM Employee pricing, Ford Employee Discount, Lease Loyalty Bonus Cash, Rebates, Incentives and A/Z plan policies are absolutely turning off car shoppers I know. It is unfathomable that even on its death-bed, GM still alienates all the taxpayers who are potential customers.

2) Why is it that GM showroom hours are only opening late on Mondays and Thursdays during the weekdays? Don't they know that the folks who have the money to buy their products typically are at work between 8am-6pm. A few of my friends here locally in the Metro Detroit area are wondering if GM themselves even care that they are going bankrupt in 2 weeks.

Please share your thoughts, fellow DetroitYes forumers.

[digitalvision]

Those are the same issues I'm having, too.

The biggest problem is the dealer experience - and the fact that for the longest time US dealers (and apparently still do) are open way less than their foreign counterparts.

People want to buy cars when they're not at work. They don't want to take time off to buy a car. If I ran a dealer, I'd change the hours completely to be open whenever people would be buying, even if it meant I wasn't open in the morning. But I've worked with US dealers, and in general, they're clueless. They and the current Detroit city council have something in common - they still think it's 1965.

I really think bankruptcy is the best option. Lots of dealers need to go so each store sells enough cars to be able to reinvest. Overall, the service and cleanliness are MUCH better at foreign dealerships. It's because they have the money because they push more units per store and make more money. There's no need to have lots of dealers anymore.

As to help, and you may laugh, if you're on Twitter, ping @scottmonty from Ford. He will help you or direct you. Just straight out ask, "Hey, I need help with X."

[Toolbox]

Originally Posted by digitalvision

If I ran a dealer, I'd change the hours completely to be open whenever people would be buying, even if it meant I wasn't open in the morning.

You might find your inventory vandalized and your building might catch on fire, accidents happen you know. Has happened in the past when some Detroit/Michigan dealers tried to change their hours of operation. The hours of operation are mostly a Detroit/michigan thing.

My parents bought a car on New Years Day in NC and the dealer was not even open. The employees were there doing end of month reporting and wanted the sale and did what was needed.

[otter]

The bizarro dealer hours are a Michigan-only thing. I found it sort of inexplicable when I first moved to MI that most dealers were open mostly only when people at work. Seriously, who's going to take time off from work to shop for a car? It's something everyone else does on evenings and weekends.

O.

[Retroit]

I think the dealers have a statewide agreement among themselves to only operate certain hours. But, I agree, it is stupid to have such restrictions.

Also stupid are all the confusing and discriminating "deals". Just lower the base price and save us the hassle!

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by Ralph

I hate it when people try and tell me how to spend my money.

I hate that too, Ralph.

It is really becoming more and more obvious that the Big 3 are unable to compete, on every level, period. I feel sad that reality bites so badly, because when push comes to shove, the Big 3 is essentially 'killing' this city, the businesses in this region and any lingering hope of the people in this region.

[digitalvision]

Well Toolbox I was going to mention that but didn't want to be incendiary... it's something that pissed me off.

Frankly, it's bullshit. It's bullshit that whomever did that firebombing didn't get locked up as terrorists. Because that's what it is. Economic terrorism by short-sighted people who don't realize that open dealers mean more cars sold which means more jobs for auto workers.

If there is such an agreement, they deserve to fail. Sorry. That's a choice to fail.

[gravitymachine]

so exactly why would someone have problem enough with a dealer being open late that they would resort to firebombing? this is all news to me

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by Toolbox

The hours of operation are mostly a Detroit/michigan thing.

My parents bought a car on New Years Day in NC and the dealer was not even open. The employees were there doing end of month reporting and wanted the sale and did what was needed.

Originally Posted by otter

The bizarro dealer hours are a Michigan-only thing.

Originally Posted by Retroit

I think the dealers have a statewide agreement among themselves to only operate certain hours. But, I agree, it is stupid to have such restrictions.

Are you all serious?? You've gotta be kidding!! A Michigan state-wide agreement?! OMG, I am going to throw-up.

Why wait another 2 weeks? GM dealers might as well just let all their staff use their vacation days and take the rest of the month off. Shut down the computers, turn the lights off and bid farewell for good.

[Pam]

Are the weird hours a GM only thing? My Mom just bought a Ford at a dealer with Sat. hours. (Hines Park Ford in New Hudson.)

[heedus]

Originally Posted by darwinism

It has been frustrating for me lately, as I have not been very successful in convincing my circle of friends to buy a Big 3 product.

I don't think that further bashing the Big 3 on public forums like this will help your cause any. Yes, I agree that only having evening hours on Monday and Thursday isn't ideal but why don't you try writing the dealer or even the respective company?

There are many good dealers in this area that don't oversell all of the employee discounts and the like and some have much better evening hours (like the dealership I just bought a car from - Brighton Ford). Making broad generalizations hurts their otherwise worthy efforts to sell cars. If you'd like some references, I would be happy to oblige.

[ndavies]

Originally Posted by Pam

Are the weird hours a GM only thing? My Mom just bought a Ford at a dealer with Sat. hours. (Hines Park Ford in New Hudson.)

No Pam, it's not a GM, Ford or Chrysler thing. It's a franchisee thing.

The autocompanies have absolutely no control over the hours the dealerships are open. The dealerships are independently owned franchisees. It is up to each dealership to set their own hours and pricing schemes.

It's also no longer true that the big 3 dealerships in the area are only open during weekdays. There are plenty of big 3 dealers in the area open on Saturdays and evenings. I bought my edge on a from a Ford dealer on Telegraph on a Saturday.

[heedus]

I just checked Ford and GM dearships in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Columbus, OH and they all had evening hours 5 days/week. Of the Big 3 dealerships I checked in Michigan, nearly all of them followed the Monday and Thursday evening hour model. Perhaps it is just a Michigan thing, even perhaps an unwritten agreement among Michigan Big 3 dealerships. I really haven't the slightest clue. What I do know, though, is that these broad negative (and not entirely informed) generalizations are not helping those Big 3 dealers that are providing excellent service to their customers.

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by heedus

I don't think that further bashing the Big 3 on public forums like this will help your cause any. Yes, I agree that only having evening hours on Monday and Thursday isn't ideal but why don't you try writing the dealer or even the respective company?

There are many good dealers in this area that don't oversell all of the employee discounts and the like and some have much better evening hours (like the dealership I just bought a car from - Brighton Ford). Making broad generalizations hurts their otherwise worthy efforts to sell cars. If you'd like some references, I would be happy to oblige.

heedus: I sure hope my initial post didn't come off sounding like a 'bashing'. Because my intent is to share my experiences and to encourage dialogues. Truth be told, each day when I speak to people in other parts of the country, including friends and relatives living in other states, I try to promote the Big 3 and their products, despite knowing full well that I am swimming against the tide. Please do indeed share your references, heedus, if they are doing business differently from what was described in my initial post above. Thanks.

[Zimm]

the crappy hours thing is really just a SE Michigan thing. i've shopped a number of dealers in the Lansing and Grand Rapids area, and never had a problem finding a dealer open evenings and weekends.

this is just an extension of the horrible level of customer service that you find here in metro Detroit.

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by heedus

I just checked Ford and GM dearships in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Columbus, OH and they all had evening hours 5 days/week. Of the Big 3 dealerships I checked in Michigan, nearly all of them followed the Monday and Thursday evening hour model. Perhaps it is just a Michigan thing, even perhaps an unwritten agreement among Michigan Big 3 dealerships. I really haven't the slightest clue. What I do know, though, is that these broad negative (and not entirely informed) generalizations are not helping those Big 3 dealers that are providing excellent service to their customers.

So, you have personally confirmed the FACT that Michigan Big 3 dealers are ONLY open late evening on Mondays and Thursdays? And dealerships in NYC, LA, Chicago and Columbus are ALL open through the evenings every single weekday.

Then, how in the world is anyone on this thread making "broad negative (and not entirely informed) generalizations"? For pete's sake, YOU HAVE just VERIFIED THE FACTS!! Therefore, it is factual ..... NOT broad, negative, uninformed generalizations ..... FACTS, FACTS, FACTS. As if I'm not already pissed enough that my efforts to shine the Big 3 positively kept on hitting brick walls .....

[kraig]

Every day I see the bumper stickers that say "Out of a job yet, keep buying foreign."

I wonder if anyone ever gave those bumper stickers to the people that run the Big 3?

Somebody should give one to the owners of American Axle.

[daddeeo]

I would have liked to buy another Dodge Neon but they dropped the line and don't have a comparable product in their lineup. With no entry level product, it's no wonder they're going out of business.

[jiminnm]

If you think it's limited now, it used to be worse (no evening hours for some years). About 15-20 years ago, the FTC sued the Detroit Auto Dealers Association for colluding to limit the hours that they were open. There was a consent settlement in the 1990s, under which the dealers agreed to be open a certain number of hours per week. I think the schedule that's been cited is the result of that agreement. I doubt the agreement actually limited the hours to that number, however.

Many dealers here in NM are open every evening, including Saturdays. Sunday openings are not unusual.

[ThaFuzz]

Originally Posted by Ralph

I hate it when people try and tell me how to spend my money.

bu... bu... but BUY AMERICAN WHAARRRRGAARRRBBLLL

Originally Posted by kraig

Every day I see the bumper stickers that say "Out of a job yet, keep buying foreign."

I wonder if anyone ever gave those bumper stickers to the people that run the Big 3?

I'd like to ask the drivers sporting those bumper stickers if they shop at WalMart, but I already know the answer.

[heedus]

Originally Posted by darwinism

I have tried my best to 'sell' the Big 3, but unfortunately the Big 3 are just at a disadvantage because of the way they do business.

To start, here are a couple of issues that I found to be hindering my ability to succeed:

1) As I had mentioned in the other GM or Ford threads here on DetroitYes, the GM Employee pricing, Ford Employee Discount, Lease Loyalty Bonus Cash, Rebates, Incentives and A/Z plan policies are absolutely turning off car shoppers I know. It is unfathomable that even on its death-bed, GM still alienates all the taxpayers who are potential customers.

2) Why is it that GM showroom hours are only opening late on Mondays and Thursdays during the weekdays? Don't they know that the folks who have the money to buy their products typically are at work between 8am-6pm. A few of my friends here locally in the Metro Detroit area are wondering if GM themselves even care that they are going bankrupt in 2 weeks.

Please share your thoughts, fellow DetroitYes forumers.

If you re-read your first post, you do make some negative, uninformed, and broad generalizations about the Big 3. When I looked up dealerships in other regions of the country, I did so to rebut your negative, uninformed, and broad generalization that "GM showroom hours" are only open late on Mondays and Thursdays. You never conditioned your statement. You made it sound like this was standard operating procedure for all GM dealerships across the country. For whatever reason, most (not all) Big 3 dealerships in Michigan operate with this Monday and Thursday evening hours model. Granted, I think it doesn't make much sense, but I also think it's wrong to attack the entire company for how these dealerships choose to operate their businesses. I understand your frustration with the Big 3 but you can't expect to help their cause any by indicting all three companies business practices yet citing only your experience with Michigan dealers. Again, write a letter, let the dealers and the Big 3 know about your negative experiences at their dealerships here in town.

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by jiminnm

If you think it's limited now, it used to be worse (no evening hours for some years). About 15-20 years ago, the FTC sued the Detroit Auto Dealers Association for colluding to limit the hours that they were open. There was a consent settlement in the 1990s, under which the dealers agreed to be open a certain number of hours per week. I think the schedule that's been cited is the result of that agreement. I doubt the agreement actually limited the hours to that number, however.

Many dealers here in NM are open every evening, including Saturdays. Sunday openings are not unusual.

Thank you, jiminnm, for your New Mexico perspective. I had heard from company associates out in Texas, Louisiana, Florida and so on, that Big 3 dealerships there are open every weekday evenings, full-day Saturdays and occasional full-day Sundays as well.

[gravitymachine]

ok, so again, can someone explain why exactly it would have been beneficial (however twisted the logic involved) for auto dealers to be open a limited number of hours? especially to the point of possible collusion and firebombing, as mentioned above

[East Detroit]

So, because the companies include employee discounts as part of employee benefits, potential customers are turned off?

That's the most ridiculous thing I have read today.

[EastsideAl]

The dealer opening hours fight has a very long and complex history in the Detroit area. After what was nearly an open war between various factions of dealers, salespeople, and other involved personnel, it eventually culminated in a written agreement in the early '70s amongst area dealers to limit their hours to business hours on M-F, with an option to open later on Monday and Thursday nights. This agreement satisfied workers' wishes for shorter hours, and was seen as beneficial by the dealers since it avoided the threat of unionization and especially since their studies then showed that with less time to "shop around" buyers would pay more for cars, thus raising the dealers' profit margins.

In the 1980s the federal government brought an anti-trust action against this agreement. After a prolonged and very complex court battle there was finally a settlement in 1996 that struck down the dealer's written agreement and enforced a Federal Trade Commission ruling that required dealers to stay open 64 hours a week for a year. After that year it seems that many dealers formed a tacit agreement to cut hours back to Mon. - Sat., with night hours on Mon and Thu.

[heedus]

Originally Posted by darwinism

heedus: I sure hope my initial post didn't come off sounding like a 'bashing'. Because my intent is to share my experiences and to encourage dialogues. Truth be told, each day when I speak to people in other parts of the country, including friends and relatives living in other states, I try to promote the Big 3 and their products, despite knowing full well that I am swimming against the tide. Please do indeed share your references, heedus, if they are doing business differently from what was described in my initial post above. Thanks.

As far as references go, I've had great at experiences at Brigthton Ford, Dick Genthe Chevrolet, Friendly Ford in Monroe, and Southgate Ford (I can provides names if you'd like). From what I remember from your previous posts, though, you are shopping in Oakland and Macomb counties, so my references may not be all that helpful.

[Retroit]

Here's the Federal Trade Commission ruling that jiminmn and EastsideAl were referring to. It lists the dealerships involved.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1182053/US...ission-detroit

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by heedus

If you re-read your first post, you do make some negative, uninformed, and broad generalizations about the Big 3. When I looked up dealerships in other regions of the country, I did so to rebut your negative, uninformed, and broad generalization that "GM showroom hours" are only open late on Mondays and Thursdays. You never conditioned your statement. You made it sound like this was standard operating procedure for all GM dealerships across the country. For whatever reason, most (not all) Big 3 dealerships in Michigan operate with this Monday and Thursday evening hours model. Granted, I think it doesn't make much sense, but I also think it's wrong to attack the entire company for how these dealerships choose to operate their businesses. I understand your frustration with the Big 3 but you can't expect to help their cause any by indicting all three companies business practices yet citing only your experience with Michigan dealers. Again, write a letter, let the dealers and the Big 3 know about your negative experiences at their dealerships here in town.

Wow, you sure are hung-up on semantics, aren't you?

Well, guess what, I am standing by my assertion that "the Big 3 are at a disadvantage because of the way they do business".

Conditioning my statement?! heedus, come on, isn't the category "Discuss Detroit" as opposed to "Non Detroit" sufficient? Are you really that gung-ho about picking apart words in a sentence, and sentences in a paragraph? Oh, while you're at it, how are you coming along in rebutting, "GM still alienates all the taxpayers who are potential customers." Did you call GM dealerships in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Columbus, OH, to VERIFY if they are OFFERING ALL DISCOUNTS/INCENTIVES/REBATES to ALL TAXPAYERS?

OMG, some people here on this forum really needs bigger fish to fry. I mean, for goodness sake, 40 dealerships are already scheduled to lose their Chrysler relationships in about 3 weeks. GM had already sent out shut down notices to 1,100 dealerships nationwide, with a rough estimates of 50-70 right here in our region. Unemployment figures are already above 10%. Between now and June 10, we are looking at the looming bankruptcy of GM and the end of Chrysler dealership contracts. Please, gimme' a break.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "the Big 3 are at a disadvantage because of the way they do business"

Quote: "40 dealerships are already scheduled to lose their Chrysler relationships in about 3 weeks. GM had already sent out shut down notices to 1,100 dealerships nationwide,"

And the foreign outlets aren't fairing any better sales wise. We're in a global recession if you haven't heard. The Big 3 have a ball and chain around their necks called the UAW. No matter how well they run their businesses, they cannot compete with non union concerns.

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by East Detroit

So, because the companies include employee discounts as part of employee benefits, potential customers are turned off?

That's the most ridiculous thing I have read today.

East Detroit, don't shoot the messenger.

Do you read a lot at all, if the notion above made it onto your most ridiculous list?

Actually, for me, the dealership hours in Metro Detroit, linked by Retroit for clarification, sure sounds a whole lot more ridiculous? Don't you think?

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by heedus

From what I remember from your previous posts, though, you are shopping in Oakland and Macomb counties, so my references may not be all that helpful.

It is not for my personal reference, per se. I am trying to share with my friends, who are considering a new car, to include GM, Chrysler and Ford on their list. They are not limited to the Oakland County, Wayne County or Macomb County areas.

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

The Big 3 have a ball and chain around their necks called the UAW. No matter how well they run their businesses, they cannot compete with non union concerns.

So, essentially they are doomed, correct? Is it even worth my breath and my time at this 11th hour?

[heedus]

Originally Posted by darwinism

Wow, you sure are hung-up on semantics, aren't you?

Well, guess what, I am standing by my assertion that "the Big 3 are at a disadvantage because of the way they do business".

Conditioning my statement?! heedus, come on, isn't the category "Discuss Detroit" as opposed to "Non Detroit" sufficient? Are you really that gung-ho about picking apart words in a sentence, and sentences in a paragraph? Oh, while you're at it, how are you coming along in rebutting, "GM still alienates all the taxpayers who are potential customers." Did you call GM dealerships in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Columbus, OH, to VERIFY if they are OFFERING ALL DISCOUNTS/INCENTIVES/REBATES to ALL TAXPAYERS?

OMG, some people here on this forum really needs bigger fish to fry. I mean, for goodness sake, 40 dealerships are already scheduled to lose their Chrysler relationships in about 3 weeks. GM had already sent out shut down notices to 1,100 dealerships nationwide, with a rough estimates of 50-70 right here in our region. Unemployment figures are already above 10%. Between now and June 10, we are looking at the looming bankruptcy of GM and the end of Chrysler dealership contracts. Please, gimme' a break.

Dude, you're the one who said that you're doing your best at selling the Big 3 to your friends and then comes on here and makes these negative generalizations about the Big 3. You're right, we are facing the current bankruptcy of Chrysler and the impending bankruptcy of GM. So, you know what, let's kick them while they're down on a forum full of interested and engaged people, who may be in the market for a new car. That sounds like a great way to "sell" the Big 3.

I fear that people are making decisions about purchasing a new car based on older and outdated perceptions. I happen to know a great deal about the auto industry and am just trying to get the facts out there so that people can base their perceptions on facts. I also am saddened that your experience with Big 3 dealers in Oakland and Macomb counties haven't been all that great. I just think that bringing the entire company into play wasn't entirely fair, especially given that the dealership hour issue appears to be a Michigan-specific problem and the incentive issue also most likely is a Michigan specific-problem due to the concentration of Big 3 employees in this area (i.e., dealerships outside of Michigan don't focus on all these incentives b/c their customers likely aren't eligible).

[janesback]

This will be the last year I will ever buy American. I can't afford American. I have spend 1900, 00 just on power window regulators on 3 of my 4 windows. I had to put in a new A.C. motor, new rotors and a new power steering pump on a Buick with only 48 k miles.......

My brother drives a Toyota Camry,as well as his family. Nothing other than oil changes and tires for those cars

I would love to have continued buying American, but my pocket book cant afford it. I cant afford to fight Buick everytime this car breaks down with inherited problems.......

[Retroit]

heedus, keep in mind that a lot of people unfamiliar with the auto industry think that the dealers and the auto manufacturers are one in the same.

And, darwinism, I took your initial post more as constructive criticism than bashing. Hopefully, the dealers will listen to suggestions such as yours.

[Angry Dad]

Correct me if wrong but aren't all the dealerships of all the brands keeping the same hours? No Kia dealerships are open on Sunday that I know of. No 24 hour Hyundai stores.

Heck these days the best way to shop for a car is across the net. That way when you show up, somebody doesn't try to sell you the left over Family Truckster at sticker or the Toyodasanda Sludgester in pale green with the extra round tire package.

[East Detroit]

Originally Posted by darwinism

East Detroit, don't shoot the messenger.

Do you read a lot at all, if the notion above made it onto your most ridiculous list?

Yes, I read a lot. Thanks for checking. I still think its the most ridiculous thing I had read today. And I didn't say that the messenger was ridiculous.

Sounds like tripe from idiots. "Yes, I would rather export jobs and money than buy goods from a company that gives their employees a discount." Tell you what, messenger, they are just looking for an excuse to false prestige or a sense of cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Perhaps instead just show them facts. Facts like Ford initial quality is better than Honda and all the rest and tied with Toyota. Facts like the Ford Fusion gets better MPG than the Camry (Hybrid versions or otherwise). Facts like Ford has the most 5 star safety ratings of any company. Facts like Ford is healthier than companies who need government loans to survive like GM, Chrysler and Toyota. Maybe that will matter to them rather than trying to appeal to their sense of community (which we see doesn't play well with the children of the ME generation).

Take them to the dealer and go for a test drive.

[heedus]

Originally Posted by Retroit

heedus, keep in mind that a lot of people unfamiliar with the auto industry think that the dealers and the auto manufacturers are one in the same.

And, darwinism, I took your initial post more as constructive criticism than bashing. Hopefully, the dealers will listen to suggestions such as yours.

Agreed. But that's why I was encouraging writing a letter. Let the dealers and the Big 3 know how you feel. Also, go ahead and call out specific dealerships for poor service. But don't punish those remaining Big 3 dealerships that are doing a great job of servicing their customers by making sweeping generalizations.

[East Detroit]

Originally Posted by janesback

This will be the last year I will ever buy American. I can't afford American. I have spend 1900, 00 just on power window regulators on 3 of my 4 windows. I had to put in a new A.C. motor, new rotors and a new power steering pump on a Buick with only 48 k miles.......

My brother drives a Toyota Camry,as well as his family. Nothing other than oil changes and tires for those cars

I would love to have continued buying American, but my pocket book cant afford it. I cant afford to fight Buick everytime this car breaks down with inherited problems.......

That's odd. Everyone I know with a Toyota talks about the engine sludge problem causing the vehicles to just out and out die. I don't need my engine dying on the road. Maybe your brother gets the oil changed weekly along with an engine cleaner just to make sure?

My high quality Ford vehicles have NEVER been in the shop for anything except the routine scheduled maintenance... including a Mustang with way over 100K miles on it.

I will stick with Detroit vehicles. The ones engineered and built here, where the corporate profits come back to benefit my community.

[darwinism]

Originally Posted by heedus

I fear that people are making decisions about purchasing a new car based on older and outdated perceptions. I happen to know a great deal about the auto industry and am just trying to get the facts out there so that people can base their perceptions on facts. I also am saddened that your experience with Big 3 dealers in Oakland and Macomb counties haven't been all that great. I just think that bringing the entire company into play wasn't entirely fair, especially given that the dealership hour issue appears to be a Michigan-specific problem and the incentive issue also most likely is a Michigan specific-problem due to the concentration of Big 3 employees in this area (i.e., dealerships outside of Michigan don't focus on all these incentives b/c their customers likely aren't eligible).

Now that you have confirmed the FACT that the dealership hours of operation AND the discounts/incentives/rebates issue ARE impeding the progress here in Michigan and more specifically in Metro Detroit, how do you suggest I counter those points when I speak to folks shopping for a new car?

Clearly, writing a letter and doing any sort of petitions aren't going to work with the short timeframe between now and June 10.

[aoife]

Originally Posted by East Detroit

That's odd. Everyone I know with a Toyota talks about the engine sludge problem causing the vehicles to just out and out die. I don't need my engine dying on the road. Maybe your brother gets the oil changed weekly along with an engine cleaner just to make sure?

Right- all foreign cars are junk. I drive a 1998 Toyota Camry with 268,000 miles. 268,000. We have never had to do anything to it other than replace worn brakes, replace worn tires, replace headlights, and get an oil change every three months.

[heedus]

Originally Posted by darwinism

Now that you have confirmed the FACT that the dealership hours of operation AND the discounts/incentives/rebates issue ARE impeding the progress here in Michigan and more specifically in Metro Detroit, how do you suggest I counter those points when I speak to folks shopping for a new car?

Clearly, writing a letter and doing any sort of petitions aren't going to work with the short timeframe between now and June 10.

I haven't confirmed any facts. I just said that to the extent that you argued these are problems, they would likely be limited to Michigan not the entire country as you have implied.

With that said, how about next time, you make a post specifically asking for Big 3 selling points and dealership references? It would be much more productive to your cause. I gave you four dealership references and East Detroit gave you Ford selling points; that's a start.

[jiminnm]

Originally Posted by East Detroit

That's odd. Everyone I know with a Toyota talks about the engine sludge problem causing the vehicles to just out and out die. I don't need my engine dying on the road. Maybe your brother gets the oil changed weekly along with an engine cleaner just to make sure?

That's odd. Not one of the 15-20 people that I know who drive a Toyota product has ever experienced that sludge problem. That includes a few who drive 98-02 models that have experienced it, and some that have over 120,000 miles on their cars. Needless to say, all will certainly consider another Toyota when they get a new car.

[Johnlodge]

Originally Posted by jiminnm

That's odd. Not one of the 15-20 people that I know who drive a Toyota product has ever experienced that sludge problem. That includes a few who drive 98-02 models that have experienced it, and some that have over 120,000 miles on their cars. Needless to say, all will certainly consider another Toyota when they get a new car.

Your friends may not have had a problem, but Toyota was aware of it. Although attempting to deny any problem at first, and blaming owners for poor maintenance, in 2002 they came around and agreed to cover costs due to engine sludge for 8 years after the purchase of a vehicle. This included some 3 million 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles. In 2007 they settled in court a class-action lawsuit which took the program further and they had to reimburse owners based on loss of vehicle value due to sludging.

[janesback]

East Detroit, hey , Im not trashing anyone or any model. If you reread my comments, I said I can not afford to buy American

Its costed me a fortune to drive a Buick. I do love my car, really, just so expensive. I am not a Toyota fan, Im not that crazy about them, but I have no choice...

Sad, really sad. I never trashed anyone,just emphasized my plight when it came time to maintain my American car......

[janesback]

johnlodge,the Chevy Monte Carlo had the same exact problem, the same exact problem with its oil sludge problem. I bought a new on in 81 and 2 years later had to go to arbitration to prove that I did indeed change my oil regularly.
They accused me of not maintaining my vehicle, but I was able to show them I did with records of the car that I kept. Also, Henna Chevrolet in Austin picked up the tab for me, and they settled with Chevy

The oil sludged up, as well as getting really hot in the engine first, finally, I had to have a new cam shaft replaced on a Chevy with only 19, 000 miles. I sold it within 4 months......Arbitration was no fun,esp when you are a woman..

[Johnlodge]

Right on, I'll be sure to not buy any 1981 Monte Carlos.

[softailrider]

Originally Posted by Ralph

I hate it when people try and tell me how to spend my money.

My wife says EXACTLY the same thing, it doesn't bother me though.

[softailrider]

Originally Posted by Angry Dad

Correct me if wrong but aren't all the dealerships of all the brands keeping the same hours? No Kia dealerships are open on Sunday that I know of. No 24 hour Hyundai stores.

Heck these days the best way to shop for a car is across the net. That way when you show up, somebody doesn't try to sell you the left over Family Truckster at sticker or the Toyodasanda Sludgester in pale green with the extra round tire package.

I don't know of any car dealers around here of any make open on Sundays. Down in Flordia they're almost all open 7 days a week.

[President Sekou]

So many people get so worked up about the whole buy America thing. I don't get why, I mean I drive a "American muscle" car in the Pontiac G8 which is assembled mostly in Australia with a Mexican sourced engine. But yet I'm supposed to get worked up about people choosing to buy a Toyota assembled in Tennessee?

Don't get me wrong I am a Big 3, well GM and Chrysler (Ford builds shit), guy all day and I am certain they build superior or on par products with the Japanese and sometimes the Germans, but I am not about to lose sleep about people choosing to buy a Prius over a real car like some posters do around here. I'll just laugh at them for driving a shit cat when they could have had better. Inform them of their options if they ask and leave it at that there isn't much more you can do.