You know what downtown needs...

[tallboy66]

You've got Greektown and I used to go to Zoots, before it was clothing store, before it was a head shop.

[lincoln8740]

But you won't need parking as long as the magic Woodward choo-choo train stops right out front.

Maybe "we" can open a House of Blues or a Cheesecake Factory next door.

HA!!!! Very nice!!

[BrushStart]

Slightly off topic from the coffee shop idea, but for a good breakfast at an inexpensive price, have you tried the Clique restaurant on Jefferson just east of Rivard? Good lunch as well, but they close I believe at 3:00 so no dinner. It's just a diner in a motel, but don't let that deter you. Surprisingly a lot of Detroit movers and shakers eat there, including I think Dennis Archer and Sam Riddle. Sam's in jail so you don't have to worry about bumping into him there.

I think it's actually a well-regarded place even though at first glance it wouldn't appear to be much.

I've actually been to the "Big" Clique several times, usually when Motown Cafe in Cadillac Square isn't open. Clique does have pretty solid breakfast food- it's just kind of far to walk from my building, but I do drive there occasionally.

[wolverine]

You first! I'd like you to make that a priority in your master plan for Detroit. I'm sure that banks would be streaming in to give you capital.

Isn't that what is usually called a living room ? Or an office? I can't imagine having people hang out all day sipping on one coffee would be profitable.

You are being totally facetious right, as what you "can't imagine" exists in tens of thousands of cities across America. From big city neighborhoods to many Michigan towns, they are establishments that

1. Occupy commercial space in older buildings [[for character)
2. Often times used older furniture
3. Have daily live bands playing
4. Offer 50-75 cent refills on coffee
5. Have free wi-fi internet
6 Sometimes have a stash of interesting books to read.

7. And don't forget, been in business for years.

What was thought to be cool and ironic, is now pretty common place. The concept is being copied everywhere because it works.

As for the homeless situation, how is this a problem? You might have 10-15 homeless come in a day for a free cup. That's about 1 large pot of maybe your cheapest coffee served in your cheapest Styrofoam cups. All loss of $3/day. Write it off as a donation. Don't even bother to try and figure out a solution to this problem. It's commonplace where I live. The second they begin to bother other patrons or lay down on one of the couches for a 3 hour nap, Starbucks, Argo, Caribou, Seattle's, Intelligentsia, Lavazza, and many others will handle it.

Ask yourself why it went out of business, and address that, you may have a concept.

If it were my business, I would charge a cover charge just to get in the door, so the homeless situation is taken care of. Either that or minimum purchases per hour to discourage the Detroit is Cheap crowd. And if it were up to me, the coffee would have a low price component for the regular coffee drinker

Unfortunately, stosh your business wouldn't last a week. People won't pay cover, because the concept you've declared unworkable already exists everywhere. $3-4 for your first cup, and 50 cents for refills. People won't pay the cover, they'll walk down the street to Starbucks or some independently owned coffee house.

Your cover charge won't help either. Actually it risks increasing the number of homeless patrons in your business. Your cover will have to be cheap. I mean who would pay $5 to enter a coffee house? Say you set it at $1-2. Homeless person pays the cover and their time spent in your place is now totally justified. They'll stay as long as they want and of course will put up a fight to leave since they paid your cover. Why will this happen? Same reason homeless fork over $2.50 to ride the subway all night. They'll do anything for at least an extended stay in someplace warm.


-----

The concept is more appropriate for midtown Detroit. These type of places work best where customers have time to come in and linger, like students and residents. Downtown still seems to cater to the daily worker as opposed to residents

[BrushStart]

Brush Start did you just wake up and realize you are in Detroit? Did you think you were living in a real city with a real downtown?

Detroit is a real city, see here: The Official Website of the City of Detroit

Detroit has a real downtown, see here: Downtown Detroit Partnership

Don't get me wrong, downtown has a ton to offer, and in balance, it is still worth it to live here. I just think Detroit could use more places that are typical, if not staples, in most other urban cities. It would definitely make downtown more attractive to potential residents and help maintain the ones we have. But, Detroit is caught in an obvious catch-22. Opening a business that caters to residents is risky when there are limited residents to cater to, but at the same time, residents are difficult to attract with such spartan urban amenities.

[wolverine]

Detroit is a real city, see here: The Official Website of the City of Detroit

Detroit has a real downtown, see here: Downtown Detroit Partnership

Don't get me wrong, downtown has a ton to offer, and in balance, it is still worth it to live here. I just think Detroit could use more places that are typical, if not staples, in most other urban cities. It would definitely make downtown more attractive to potential residents and help maintain the ones we have. But, Detroit is caught in an obvious catch-22. Opening a business that caters to residents is risky when there are limited residents to cater to, but at the same time, residents are difficult to attract with such spartan urban amenities.

Detroit is a Gamma- city. While in the 10th tier [[the bottom tier) It actually ranks as a world city. Which tells me it has a strong enough economy to support a coffee shop.......

[DetroitPlanner]

I have yet to find a place in the city to buy a pair of decent underwear or some quality socks.

You can get this in the city, just not downtown. This is one of the questions I ask too about health and viability of a city's core. At least if we had a family dollar or dollar general downtown this would be solved. Until then those who want to live downtown will have to deal without.

Maybe the Joseph Banks in the rencen has those things, but I don't think about underwear or socks when I go there. Underwear and socks are associated with department stores.

[Stosh]

You are being totally facetious right, as what you "can't imagine" exists in tens of thousands of cities across America. From big city neighborhoods to many Michigan towns, they are establishments that

1. Occupy commercial space in older buildings [[for character)
2. Often times used older furniture
3. Have daily live bands playing
4. Offer 50-75 cent refills on coffee
5. Have free wi-fi internet
6 Sometimes have a stash of interesting books to read.

7. And don't forget, been in business for years.

What was thought to be cool and ironic, is now pretty common place. The concept is being copied everywhere because it works.

As for the homeless situation, how is this a problem? You might have 10-15 homeless come in a day for a free cup. That's about 1 large pot of maybe your cheapest coffee served in your cheapest Styrofoam cups. All loss of $3/day. Write it off as a donation. Don't even bother to try and figure out a solution to this problem. It's commonplace where I live. The second they begin to bother other patrons or lay down on one of the couches for a 3 hour nap, Starbucks, Argo, Caribou, Seattle's, Intelligentsia, Lavazza, and many others will handle it.

Let's see, where to start....
1) Older buildings with affordable rents, that offer the lessee something for their money?
2) Older Furniture.... Ever hear of bedbugs?
3) Look at the Metro Times for bands. Lots of bars, little coffee shops. Why? You usually have to PAY them. At least the ones that are worth listening to, anyway.
4) Coffee, only?
5) Wi fi is dead as of this year coming anyway. Watch and see.
6) So does the public library.
7) Well, you don't have to worry about this one...

Once again, why is it that the "cool" coffee houses in DD have a problem staying open? I hear lots of BS commentary, but no concrete answers.

Unfortunately, stosh your business wouldn't last a week. People won't pay cover, because the concept you've declared unworkable already exists everywhere. $3-4 for your first cup, and 50 cents for refills. People won't pay the cover, they'll walk down the street to Starbucks or some independently owned coffee house.

For that price, you are paying a cover charge, but you just don't realize it.

Your cover charge won't help either. Actually it risks increasing the number of homeless patrons in your business. Your cover will have to be cheap. I mean who would pay $5 to enter a coffee house? Say you set it at $1-2. Homeless person pays the cover and their time spent in your place is now totally justified. They'll stay as long as they want and of course will put up a fight to leave since they paid your cover. Why will this happen? Same reason homeless fork over $2.50 to ride the subway all night. They'll do anything for at least an extended stay in someplace warm.

I suppose then that a purchase is ALSO required. As stated above, with mimimum time between purchases.
-----

The concept is more appropriate for midtown Detroit. These type of places work best where customers have time to come in and linger, like students and residents. Downtown still seems to cater to the daily worker as opposed to residents

Just like everything that works, you need people to make it happen. Of course, there's only so many retail spots in midtown.

[wolverine]

Let's see, where to start....
1) Older buildings with affordable rents, that offer the lessee something for their money?

Certainly you can rent for any price in Detroit.....I mean, look about. Even if you couldn't afford the rent, so many of your previous come and gone businesses were incredibly subsidized. Free rent for business?

2) Older Furniture.... Ever hear of bedbugs?

There is also such thing as couches without bedbugs. They certainly exist.

3) Look at the Metro Times for bands. Lots of bars, little coffee shops. Why? You usually have to PAY them. At least the ones that are worth listening to, anyway.

If I was going to see a good band, yes I'd probably pay to see them at a bar or concert venue. Coffee shops sometimes have live music to add to the experience. It's the same gimmick potbelly uses. Always on the sign "Free live music."

4) Coffee, only?

It depends. Any basic or flavored coffees, like 99.9999%, of the restaurants or coffee shops out there will offer free or reduced price refills. Some of the more custom drinks require refills at full price.

5) Wi fi is dead as of this year coming anyway. Watch and see.

Cool. People will still surf the net on whatever network technology is available to them at a coffee shop, even if it's over their own service. It has more to do with getting out of the house and being social.

6) So does the public library.

So does Borders and B&N. Reinforces my above point. People like to get out of their houses or the office, sit in a coffee shop and relax. It's too bad these stores had to add coffee shops and cafes to become more profitable.

Once again, why is it that the "cool" coffee houses in DD have a problem staying open? I hear lots of BS commentary, but no concrete answers.

I already answered it my first post.

For that price, you are paying a cover charge, but you just don't realize it.

That's not a cover charge. They are buying and consuming a product. Yes people realize it. Charging a cover would simply gain your patrons entry to sit down, but not buy anything to drink.

I suppose then that a purchase is ALSO required. As stated above, with mimimum time between purchases.

Minimum time, cover charge, purchase required. Doesn't sound like a friendly place. Yet all the chain and independent coffee houses are doing fine without these.


So the coffee shops I've described exist and they work.

It just amazes me there are folks here that will slam down any idea or suggestion that would make Detroit even a bit more liveable. Yes, it's incredibly hard to start a business. But you have residents. We are talking about coffee shops, not arenas or shopping malls. Key word, "suggestion." No one is forcing anyone to open one of these. At least you have a venue here for residents to speak about what they want.

[Stosh]

Certainly you can rent for any price in Detroit.....I mean, look about. Even if you couldn't afford the rent, so many of your previous come and gone businesses were incredibly subsidized. Free rent for business?

Well, considering the incredible overhead that business in Detroit requires, the slim profit margin a coffee shop as you and others describe doesn't quite cut it. Subsidized business by the city just to take it away again by inspection and various and sundry taxes doesn't make sense.

There is also such thing as couches without bedbugs. They certainly exist.

Certainly, they do. but I can't see encouraging the propagation of them in a public environment. Fabric couches are a great breeding ground for bedbugs. Comfy, yes... but the residuals are a bitch.

If I was going to see a good band, yes I'd probably pay to see them at a bar or concert venue. Coffee shops sometimes have live music to add to the experience. It's the same gimmick potbelly uses. Always on the sign "Free live music."

I've experienced the "free live" phenomena, and found it lacking. The experience leads one to believe that old adage "silence is golden". Most times it's preferable.

It depends. Any basic or flavored coffees, like 99.9999%, of the restaurants or coffee shops out there will offer free or reduced price refills. Some of the more custom drinks require refills at full price.

The whole point I was trying to make is that taking up space in a profit making business should be discouraged. Otherwise the possibilities of this being profitable becomes impossible.

Cool. People will still surf the net on whatever network technology is available to them at a coffee shop, even if it's over their own service. It has more to do with getting out of the house and being social.

Yes, nothing like doing that on someone else's dime. Have people over to your place?

So does Borders and B&N. Reinforces my above point. People like to get out of their houses or the office, sit in a coffee shop and relax. It's too bad these stores had to add coffee shops and cafes to become more profitable.

They do because it draws people in. And they are failing at that as well, in a lot of respects. They thought that the coffee would increase business, it just doesn't translate to that, it seems. The bookstores are failing a lot these days.

I already answered it my previous post.

You didn't as far as I can see. Let me reiterate.

Once again, why is it that the "cool" coffee houses in DD have a problem staying open? I hear lots of BS commentary, but no concrete answers.

That's not a cover charge. They are buying and consuming a product. Yes people realize it. Charging a cover would simply gain your patrons entry to sit down, but not buy anything to drink.Minimum time, cover charge, purchase required. What are you tying to invent here? A failing business concept? Doesn't sound like a friendly place.

Which is why I don't have a business as you would want.

So the coffee shops I've described exist and they work.

Not in Detroit.

[wolverine]

You are getting into technicalities which are getting away from the whole point of this. Some, I do agree with, but were to never be explored in detail [[like the couches with bedbugs)

The point is someone proposed coffee shop with a casual laid back atmosphere. Well I see hundreds of independently owned establishments like this all over here in Chicago. Why would it be so impossible to open one in Detroit? You have students, you have residents. Certainly this can be made to work.

You didn't as far as I can see. Let me reiterate.

Post #29 Very bottom. I explain why it's too early for downtown Detroit

[Stosh]

You are getting into technicalities which are getting away from the whole point of this. Some, I do agree with, but were to never be explored in detail [[like the couches with bedbugs)

The point is someone proposed coffee shop with a casual laid back atmosphere. Well I see hundreds of independently owned establishments like this all over here in Chicago. Why would it be so impossible to open one in Detroit? You have students, you have residents. Certainly this can be made to work.

Post #29 Very bottom. I explain why it's too early for downtown Detroit

I can't say that I disagree.

[English]

Avalon used to be like this before everyone discovered it and it became the "hipster hangout." I did plenty of reading there when I was working on my master's, but that was at the beginning of the decade.

I know exactly what you mean, BrushStart. I wrote my entire diss in A2-area cafes. There's nothing like Sweetwater's in Ann Arbor, but then again, there are only certain "nodes" in all of metro Detroit that are like it [[e.g. Royal Oak, Birmingham) and they don't have the same informal vibe... I don't want to have to get dressed up to go to a coffee shop. So I am struggling with where to move in a few months.

The only place I've found in the CBD that's comparable is Biggby on Woodward, but my cell phone/3G service doesn't work. So it's great for reading and offline writing, less so for anything that requires Internet access. Also, the coffee drinks aren't the greatest IMO... but it seems to be relatively good for that kind of thing. Support a Michigan business, etc. A colleague told me about it this summer.

[English]

The point is someone proposed coffee shop with a casual laid back atmosphere. Well I see hundreds of independently owned establishments like this all over here in Chicago. Why would it be so impossible to open one in Detroit? You have students, you have residents. Certainly this can be made to work.

If Avalon expands into the lower floor of the Willy's development, and has 15-20 tables indoors instead of 2-3, it would definitely become that spot. I thought they were supposed to move soon, but no one in the area seems to know when [[or if) it will happen.

[runnerXT]

a simple statement of someone stating what they want for Downtown Detroit:

You know what downtown needs...
a coffee shop with couches and tables and a laid back atmosphere where I can walk down and do some work, read a book, and hang out with people from the neighborhood.

and you flew off the handle with your response:

You first! I'd like you to make that a priority in your master plan for Detroit. I'm sure that banks would be streaming in to give you capital.

Isn't that what is usually called a living room ? Or an office? I can't imagine having people hang out all day sipping on one coffee would be profitable.

you ok there? All the guy did was state want he wanted to see in downtown. The horror!! Why so much anger in you?

[Stosh]

a simple statement of someone stating what they want for Downtown Detroit:



and you flew off the handle with your response:



you ok there? All the guy did was state want he wanted to see in downtown. The horror!! Why so much anger in you?

Anger? Why I could not imagine why you would think that...

[DC48080]

Although Stosh and I are usually on opposite sides of most issues, I must say that I agree with him on this one. I do not see any anger in his post. Some of us on this forum grow weary of the parade of Pollyanna, Hipster Doofuss, or pie in the sky - head on the sand unrealistic fantasy posts.

Stosh was just trying to introduce a bit of reality to the conversation. Namely, if the original poster thinks it is such a great idea then he or she should put together a business plan and raise the necessary capital to start such a venture.

[erikd]

Wow.

I'm a downtown resident. I've been to every coffee place around here. There are some good ones, including 1515, the place in Kresge's, and the one over by COBO. I've been to every Starbucks and Tim Horton's in this city, yet that's not what I'm looking for. It's not remotely the same environment where I can spend 3-4 hours getting work done without feeling strange. It's not a place where people from a neighborhood meet up, relax, and feel comfortable.

Secondly, I am not in the coffee business, so I don't intend on opening a coffee shop. I merely pointed out that such a place would be nice to have. And, STOSH, I don't think it's a bad business model. I've see many places like this, only they were in cities other than Detroit. I don't know where everyone else lives, but downtown does not cater to a residential population. It caters to event goers- people who come downtown for a game or a show, blow a bunch of money on food and drinks, and then drive back home. Because of this, prices are jacked up, there's nothing open late except bars, strip clubs, and casinos. Places where I can grab a cheap meal, sit and read the paper, and have coffee with friends do not exist. I'm talking about basic shit.

You want to know why living downtown is expensive? It's not because my rent is astronomical. It's because getting a decent sandwich for under $8 on a Sunday is next to impossible. Downtown Detroit is like an amusement park. Sure, there are great rides everywhere that I can walk to, but basic amenities are almost non-existant. Businesses that cater to anything but event goers are few and far between. I can get an expensive fish dinner at 5 places within a mile of my apartment, yet I can't get an omelette with toast without going for a car ride. That is F'ed up no matter how you slice it. I love living downtown, but after several years, it truly boils down to the small things that I want/need as a resident that make me want to jet for another city. It's not the crime, it's not the crap schools- it's the lack of the usual things that make urban living worthwhile. So mock me all you want. People are not going to want to live here until such amenties exist. I just thought I'd point out something that would be nice. Maybe it will inspire some young entrepreneur.

Brushstart,

There are a number of options that you are either unaware of, or simply discounting out of hand.

Perhaps downtown Detroit doesn't have a coffee shop with an "environment" conducive to sitting around for 3-4 hours without "feeling strange". I don't have any suggestions for a person who seeks to find a place where they can spend two bucks on a coffee and then spend half of the day occupying a table "getting work done".

"there's nothing open late except bars, strip clubs, and casinos. Places where I can grab a cheap meal, sit and read the paper, and have coffee with friends do not exist. I'm talking about basic shit."

If you want a place that is open late, where you can grab a cheap meal, read the paper, and have coffee with friends, go to American Coney Island, Lafayette Coney Island, or Nikki's in Greektown. They are all open late 7 days a week, serve cheap food, and will let you sit around for hours drinking coffee with your friends.

'You want to know why living downtown is expensive? It's not because my rent is astronomical. It's because getting a decent sandwich for under $8 on a Sunday is next to impossible."

Every restaurant in Greektown is open on Sunday, mostly with very reasonable prices. The Bucharest Grill is open late 7 days a week, serving excellent food at very low prices.

"I can get an expensive fish dinner at 5 places within a mile of my apartment, yet I can't get an omelette with toast without going for a car ride."

That is bullshit. Plaka serves breakfast 24/7 in Greektown. Fishbones serves breakfast 7 days a week. Greektown Casino serves breakfast and breakfast buffets 7 days a week. Forans/ Grand Trunk has an excellent breakfast/brunch service on the weekends. And on weekdays, you can get breakfast at dozens of places downtown.

Detroit offers more features and amenities than most people realize. To be sure, we don't have the same amount that you will find in Manhattan, SF, or inside the Chicago loop, but we also don't have the sky-high rents that you will pay in those premium areas.

If you are not satisfied with the retail and service options in downtown Detroit, you can help by supporting the businesses that we currently have, which will make our community more attractive to additional business investment, or you can start your own business
to fill a void in the local market. If you do not want to be part of the solution in Detroit, you can move to a city that has more retail options and amenities, and pay far more for rent.

However, if you want to enjoy the cheap housing in Detroit, while complaining about how it isn't as good as the elite cities of the world, and do nothing to help the situation, you can go fuck off.

Detroit sucks if you don't know anything about the city. If you can't figure out where to get a good late night meal or a weekend breakfast downtown, then move to NYC. The $800 you spend on a sweet downtown high rise or loft in Detroit will probably get you a shitty walk-up in Queens, but there might be a 24/7 diner like Plaka and a Starbucks in your neighborhood.

[sumas]

A few years back we stayed in my son's loft to babysit his cat. The efficiency kitchen wasn't so efficient so we would walk to this little diner for breakfast on Lafayette a few blocks East of Rosa Parks.

On the weekend [[Sunday morning) I think, the place was jammed with area students from WSU, WCCC and maybe U of D Mercy. It was sort of open Mike with poetry readings, folk music, acting performances, etc. I found it very charming, all the more so since it was so unexpected.

[Johnlodge]

Bittersweet Cafe was pretty cool when it was open on Woodward. It's just not that easy to pay the bills with an independent coffee shop.

[Whitehouse]

I have a whole different idea of a coffeshop.



Here's the menu...


The only map you need in Amsterdam.

[wolverine]

Although Stosh and I are usually on opposite sides of most issues, I must say that I agree with him on this one. I do not see any anger in his post. Some of us on this forum grow weary of the parade of Pollyanna, Hipster Doofuss, or pie in the sky - head on the sand unrealistic fantasy posts.

Stosh was just trying to introduce a bit of reality to the conversation. Namely, if the original poster thinks it is such a great idea then he or she should put together a business plan and raise the necessary capital to start such a venture.

The original poster was trying initiate the conversation. Why is it a requirement that when someone starts a thread with an idea, they must actually put together a business plan. Do you take DetroitYES that seriously?

It's a shame, there's plenty of websites out there where people post about issues or wants in their neighborhood and they don't get the kind of backlash and rude behavior I see here. A coffee shop is not a "pie in the sky" proposal It's not a 500 foot statue or resurrection of the original Book Tower. Be constructive or don't post.

[n7hn]

The statement "what detroit needs is" implied there was some far reaching cure to detroits woes. Therefore my reaction was "OH, Is that all detroit needs" .... so I cant speak for everyone, but thats why i saw this as more of a less serious post open to ridicule and scorn. HAd it said "I wish there was a" or "I really want to find a" or "can someone explain why there isn't a" all may have brought more insightful and compassionate replies. Just thinking here,........ I dont do it often,

[Lowell]

This is the internet. It is far easier to tear things down from the obscurity of distance than to engage in constructive conversation or, god forbid, actually propose any thing. Introducing 'reality' into the conversation? Hardly, unless mockery and dissension is one's idea of reality.

I am sure that those who feel it is their role to deride this idea were part of the same chorus deriding Slows, Avalon Bakery and other absurd ideas. This proposal is modest by comparison.

[Stosh]

This is the internet. It is far easier to tear things down from the obscurity of distance than to engage in constructive conversation or, god forbid, actually propose any thing. Introducing 'reality' into the conversation? Hardly, unless mockery and dissension is one's idea of reality.

I am sure that those who feel it is their role to deride this idea were part of the same chorus deriding Slows, Avalon Bakery and other absurd ideas. This proposal is modest by comparison.

There's no obscurity of distance in this regard. I'm closer to Detroit proper than you are. And I endeavor to play the devil's advocate in this matter, and I get this as a response? Lovely.

Mockery and dissention are part and parcel of a healthy discussion. I mean, how many times does the same stuff get mentioned, i.e. I wish we had...[[insert flavor or half baked idea of the month)? I mean, come on.

For what it's worth, I have never, ever derided Slow's or Avalon bakery. They serve their demographic quite well, as well as are solid businesses and, from what I can see, have a solid business plan. Of course Slow's was helped along by the owner's family, and if anyone had that kind of backing, perhaps there would be more successful businesses in the area, but I digress.

I, for one, feel that the City needs new businesses, but there's no way that any independent can cobble together a "Central Perk" type of coffee shop, without the critical mass of a dedicated and loyal clientele. And what the OP and others fail to address is the police and crime aspect of the varied and sundry cities mentioned in a whole lot of other posts. Royal Oak, Chicago, et al. All have one thing in common, a more responsive police force. Once the city decides to address crime, and the people that patronize businesses in the city from within and without the city stop using the hard working businesses as their own personal 5 finger discount shopping source, then maybe, just maybe, you will get what you want.