The Fate of the Detroit People Mover

[jtf1972]

I was always opposed to the ColemanTram, but if they can tie it in somehow, fine. Problem is, all the places worth stopping at are gone [[Trapper's Alley, Hudson's, etc.)

Check your history. The original proposal would have connected the State Fair Grounds to City Airport, with the line running Woodward to Jefferson, then to [[I believe) Mt. Elliott, then Gratiot to Connor.

SEMTA was in control all the way though, and killed that idea. The downtown loop was all that could be agreed upon, and SEMTA dropped the ball on that too. It wasn't until the project was about to be dropped with all that elevated track concrete cracking that SEMTA turned control over to the city.

[[For future consideration: Your anti-Young arguments may carry more weight if they have facts to back them, rather than refute them.)

[marcwigle]

At one time there were underground restrooms downtown. I remember using them with my father. They had entrances just like NYC subway entrances with the womens on one side and the mens on the other side. As I remember [[I was a kid) they were huge and fascinated me. If I was downtown with my mother, she wouldn't let me use them because of "all the homosexuals" down there.

Those damn homosexuals!! ;-)

[Brock7]

Once my mother took me downtown on the bus and disappeared down one of those without my being aware of it. When I looked around and couldn't find her I was terrified.

[Whitehouse]

Once my mother took me downtown on the bus and disappeared down one of those without my being aware of it. When I looked around and couldn't find her I was terrified.

Are we in thereapy session now?

[K-slice]

The people mover does the job it was designed to do, and it does it well. It is too bad it wasnt built out to where the stadiums are now, but expansion is not an option. The best thing would to have a transfer station between the PM and the M1 where you can go from one to the other without having to pay again. A design like this would be mutually beneficial to both trains and make the system very efficiant.
Since the PM already is a downown loop there;s no need to build a new one. Plus people on the M1 wont want to make all those downtown stops that the PM provides.

[canuck]

The PM is a good tourist draw, makes for a nice elevated commute that adds spice to downtown. i wouldnt touch it and I would keep it cheap. Any effort to ban automotive use such as parking structures and lots is a hard sell in Detroit. Whatever effort at making the experience of a downtown stroll positive is a step in the right direction. There are plenty of arid areas that need to be redesigned to accomodate small businesses,events and such. There are too many buildings with no business frontage and that is a modern design flaw that would need to be corrected. What has happened to modern cities all over is maybe more apparent in Detroit. New York has avenues like Avenue A and Madison with faceless corporate towers in the cookie cutter modernist mold but the side streets offer a welcome relief. Detroiters need that kind of draw. Downtown zoning laws should
require multiple use frontage even if that means implementing them retroactively. Forcing small business onto city streets, by ordering building owners to redesign small scale frontage to accomodate street level shops. This may be a difficult job for the city's legal department but it would yield long term benefits for clueless owners as well as the city. A lot of bad decisions were made in the name of progress and suburban downtowns are no different than big city downtowns in that respect. For Detroit to regain stature and truly reflect diversity, the city must fight block for block to give it the kind of appeal it had say, 40,50,90 years ago. It is easy to understand that in a city with very hot summers and cold winters, people need to access buildings, not feel shut out. Detroit has no underground relief from the elements and not enough business attraction to keep people longer. A redesign of frontage is imperative. maybe a bit of Disneyfied over the top stuff. I'm thinking along the lines of L.A.'s extravagant 3D billboards or Tail O' the Pup for Coney Island joints etc...
The idea is to create something new and outrageous. Downtown should be less like a fucking Plymouth Volare or Reliant, more like a Cadillac Coupe de Ville 56, outrageous...

[EastSider]

Downtown zoning laws should require multiple use frontage even if that means implementing them retroactively. Forcing small business onto city streets, by ordering building owners to redesign small scale frontage to accomodate street level shops.

So wait...you want the city to force building owners to add more retail space to their builidings, even when the new store fronts along Woodward stand vacant, when the retail spaces in the Compuware building don't stay occupied. How would that help attract retailers again? And what effect would your Sim City plan have on the economics of owning a building downtown?

[ghettopalmetto]

So wait...you want the city to force building owners to add more retail space to their builidings, even when the new store fronts along Woodward stand vacant, when the retail spaces in the Compuware building don't stay occupied. How would that help attract retailers again? And what effect would your Sim City plan have on the economics of owning a building downtown?

And I suppose you'd rather have downtown Detroit look like downtown Atlanta?

http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_Atlanta%20Tour.html


The retail spaces aren't having difficulty because of the sheer oversupply of quality space available for small businesses. They're having difficulty because of the diffusion of office and residential tenants elsewhere in downtown, as well as their physical removal [[see Wintergarden) from the rest of the city.

A fine-grained network of retail spaces, constructed at human-scale, accessible from the STREET and contributing to pedestrian activity, is essential if downtown Detroit is to sustain any sort of economic rebirth.

[HazenPingree]

The DPM opened for service in 1987. Hudson's closed its downtown doors in January of '83.

I thought Hudson's closed in 1985?

[Trumpeteer]

And I suppose you'd rather have downtown Detroit look like downtown Atlanta?

http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_Atlanta%20Tour.html


The retail spaces aren't having difficulty because of the sheer oversupply of quality space available for small businesses. They're having difficulty because of the diffusion of office and residential tenants elsewhere in downtown, as well as their physical removal [[see Wintergarden) from the rest of the city.

A fine-grained network of retail spaces, constructed at human-scale, accessible from the STREET and contributing to pedestrian activity, is essential if downtown Detroit is to sustain any sort of economic rebirth.

The pictures you link to are made up primarily of shots of parking decks taken from side streets and access alleys as well as a downtown library and a RenCen style structure called the Peachtree Plaza and the associated Westin Hotel. This same site fails to portray the vibrancy of the Midtown and Buckhead areas of Atlanta and their streetside retail as well as sidewalk dining which is abundant. The Peachtree Street, Marietta Street, and the Fairlie-Poplar areas of Downtown Atlanta are full of this same type streetscape and very much alive and well for 12 months of the year. In fact the one photo of the "soffitt" hanging over the street is directly across the street from three upscale restaurants with full glass fronts and sidewalk tables. Also have to correct the statement under the next picture that talks of the soffitt ending at the "HVAC vent". That is not an HVAC vent but is in fact a grill covering the UNDERGROUND power transformers as part of a Network Underground system that is used by Georgia Power to serve virtually the entire Downttown Atlanta CBD. The grill is there for ease of access in the rare event of a problem with those transformers.



Down Peachtree Street, remnants of the Beaux Arts, circa 1900.
The center of Atlanta used to havre some charm and grace.
It has mostly been destroyed.

VERY interesting the picture above and their associated comment as in this picture is the former Davisons Department Store at 180 Peachtree built in or around 1926 which is now renovated and open as a couple of restaurants as well as the former 1st Floor & Mezzanine being a beautiful special events facility complete with the ORIGINAL chrystal chandeliers. Next to it is the former Winecoff Hotel built 1930- 1940? which is now beautifully renovated as a new boutique hotel, and the building in the background is the Candler Building circa 1920's which is still fully functioning as an office building with some street level retail and is a virtual duplicate of the LAFAYETTE now removed from the Detroit scene. Oh, by the way one block further is the Flatiron Building again circa early 20th Centruy still open and FULL as an office building with MORE restaurants and shops. Interesting the the "gerbil chute, also known as the Rape-O-Matic Skyway" looks like the skywalk from Milender to the RenCen.

[Gistok]

No Hudson's downtown did close in 1983.

And the Cadillac Centre Station nearby was built for the Cadillac Centre Mall, which was a pipe dream that never came to fruition [[it would have been located on the Kern and Crowley blocks, where the Compuware HQ and its' parking structure currently reside).

Any ideas about dismantling the PM are pure folly. The feds would want their $200 million back.

[drjeff]

The only time I ride the people mover is when going to Joe Louis arena due to the lack of parking.

I think if the people mover is to survive, it needs to be expanded to service Comerica Park, Ford Field and where ever Illitch decides to build the new Hockey arena.

If Joe Louis arena is eventually closed, and the people mover is not expanded they might as well just close down the people mover.

The GCP stop is maybe 200 yards from Comerica Park. If you're too lazy to walk 2 minutes, then I doubt adding a closer station is really going to help because you're probably not using public transportation anyway.

[EastSider]

And I suppose you'd rather have downtown Detroit look like downtown Atlanta?

http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_Atlanta%20Tour.html


The retail spaces aren't having difficulty because of the sheer oversupply of quality space available for small businesses. They're having difficulty because of the diffusion of office and residential tenants elsewhere in downtown, as well as their physical removal [[see Wintergarden) from the rest of the city.

A fine-grained network of retail spaces, constructed at human-scale, accessible from the STREET and contributing to pedestrian activity, is essential if downtown Detroit is to sustain any sort of economic rebirth.

And forcing building owners to create additional retail spaces in their buildings will stop the diffusion of office and residential tenants how, exactly?

Your "fine-grained network of retail spaces...etc" already exists along Woodward, Washington Boulevard, and Griswold and the other streets around Capitol Park. It's just empty, that's all.

[ghettopalmetto]

This same site fails to portray the vibrancy of the Midtown and Buckhead areas of Atlanta and their streetside retail as well as sidewalk dining which is abundant. The Peachtree Street, Marietta Street, and the Fairlie-Poplar areas of Downtown Atlanta are full of this same type streetscape and very much alive and well for 12 months of the year.

Okay, well you go live in a Stasi-constructed bunker, then. I have never been to a city, though, with so much office space, yet not so much as a newsstand or coffee shop to be found anywhere. There's something inherently wrong when one of the largest downtowns in the nation has essentially no pedestrian activity whatsoever. Atlanta is drive-in, drive-out, scattered amalgamations of isolated activity pods, at best. It's not a real city. It's L. Brooks Patterson's Ultimate Wet Dream.

Are there parts [[pods) of Atlanta that are vibrant? I'm not doubting that. Does the downtown area of the largest metropolis in the South look like something out of Totall Recall? Absolutely.

[Trumpeteer]

Okay, well you go live in a Stasi-constructed bunker, then. I have never been to a city, though, with so much office space, yet not so much as a newsstand or coffee shop to be found anywhere. There's something inherently wrong when one of the largest downtowns in the nation has essentially no pedestrian activity whatsoever. Atlanta is drive-in, drive-out, scattered amalgamations of isolated activity pods, at best. It's not a real city. It's L. Brooks Patterson's Ultimate Wet Dream.

Are there parts [[pods) of Atlanta that are vibrant? I'm not doubting that. Does the downtown area of the largest metropolis in the South look like something out of Totall Recall? Absolutely.

HEY GP I defer to your self proclaimed expert status on Metro Atlanta as it sounds like you may have visited once and didn't notice the number of "newstands and coffee shops" around as that must be a critical quality of life issue for you. Please ignore the significant amount of downtown mid and hi rise housing built within the past five years and also please ignore my factual post above as I won't "confuse you with the facts as you're right".

[canuck]

And forcing building owners to create additional retail spaces in their buildings will stop the diffusion of office and residential tenants how, exactly?

Your "fine-grained network of retail spaces...etc" already exists along Woodward, Washington Boulevard, and Griswold and the other streets around Capitol Park. It's just empty, that's all.

That's not all actually...

One of the reasons for the state of retail now is the utilitarian phase of capitalism that managed to turn citizens into consumers, pedestrians into loiterers etc... Communist countries built their achitectural monstrosities with the same vehemence, enthusiasm as we did. The commies promised them equality and we promised upward mobility. Yes I do think that enacting laws and rules whereby people actually have a say in urban design will effect change for the better. Big property owners that reward incompetence in spite of weak returns manage to shoot themselves in the foot too. The city is responsible for a lackadaisical rulebook, but so is the corporate overseer who stops caring for the influence he has on human interaction. So maybe these [[absentee, farflung?) owners should do something collectively to redesign an inviting streetscape incentivize and attract national chains at bargain basement rates, and somehow solve that problem...

After all, it might just be profitable in the long run.

[ghettopalmetto]

HEY GP I defer to your self proclaimed expert status on Metro Atlanta as it sounds like you may have visited once and didn't notice the number of "newstands and coffee shops" around as that must be a critical quality of life issue for you. Please ignore the significant amount of downtown mid and hi rise housing built within the past five years and also please ignore my factual post above as I won't "confuse you with the facts as you're right".

I'm just sayin that when I go to a place like say, Philadelphia, I see restaurants and stores and squares, and people walking to their destinations. When I go to Atlanta, I see cars and parking lots and bunkers, and nothing that really intrigues me enough to walk down the block to see what else I can find.

But hey, don't let a few photographs get in the way of your pre-ordained definition of urban "success".

[canuck]

Thanks GhettoPalmetto for your link to Kunstler's essay. I spent some time on his website and got a few chuckles too. I suffered his bike tour of the rural area around Saratoga Springs. I remember stopping once on a bus ride from Montreal to NYC in Saratoga and was blown away by this quaint but substantial spa town set halfway between the two cities. I remember back in 1980, the trend toward building castles hadnt yet started, the whole status thing was getting underway bigtime as Jimmy Carter got replaced. Logos on Lacoste t-shirts? Forget it! You had to buy into 100 dollar pre-drilled denim to be properly outfitted. S'no wonder even carbon black folks need to get an invisible tattoo, anything so long as you are branded. We have become addicted to the logorrhea as it were...

I remember comments in the press about "Upstairs Downstairs"; the british serial set in the edwardian bullshit period. Comments on how impossible it would be to live up to the standards of the era; that nobody could afford to staff households in this way ever again. Its funny to see the kind of domains the captains of industry go home to, the stone finials, the wrought iron gates and the topiary. The same people put up the brutish architecture we have enjoyed for the past 50+ years. I have the same opinion you do about the faceless streetscapes that some people need to defend. We are at a point where downtowns look no more user-friendly than industrial parkland.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's really a simple question of who the intended "customer" of the built environment is. Do you want a city built for people, or a city built for cars?

[EastSider]

It's really a simple question of who the intended "customer" of the built environment is. Do you want a city built for people, or a city built for cars?

I loved that movie, even though my kids were less than impressed. I think they were a little too old for it.

[ghettopalmetto]

I loved that movie, even though my kids were less than impressed. I think they were a little too old for it.

EastSider, do you live in a plain concrete box? If no, then why not?

[Trumpeteer]

I'm just sayin that when I go to a place like say, Philadelphia, I see restaurants and stores and squares, and people walking to their destinations. When I go to Atlanta, I see cars and parking lots and bunkers, and nothing that really intrigues me enough to walk down the block to see what else I can find.

But hey, don't let a few photographs get in the way of your pre-ordained definition of urban "success".

Again I stand in awe of sheer brillance!! You may have visited Atlanta once maybe twice and you rely on some selected photos to think you know of an area but I'd be glad to show you around as I know of some great spots where you'd be very welcome. With respect to restaurants both casual and fine dining, Metro Atlanta ranks only behinf NYC and LA as far as the number and quality of such. Don't believe me??? Check out the NRA or NAFEM or Nations Restaurant News for info. I still won't confuse you with the FACTS you clone of Crawford. As I said on another thread about you, you're not the sharpest tack here are you?

[Trumpeteer]

Thanks GhettoPalmetto for your link to Kunstler's essay. I spent some time on his website and got a few chuckles too. I suffered his bike tour of the rural area around Saratoga Springs. I remember stopping once on a bus ride from Montreal to NYC in Saratoga and was blown away by this quaint but substantial spa town set halfway between the two cities. I remember back in 1980, the trend toward building castles hadnt yet started, the whole status thing was getting underway bigtime as Jimmy Carter got replaced. Logos on Lacoste t-shirts? Forget it! You had to buy into 100 dollar pre-drilled denim to be properly outfitted. S'no wonder even carbon black folks need to get an invisible tattoo, anything so long as you are branded. We have become addicted to the logorrhea as it were...

I remember comments in the press about "Upstairs Downstairs"; the british serial set in the edwardian bullshit period. Comments on how impossible it would be to live up to the standards of the era; that nobody could afford to staff households in this way ever again. Its funny to see the kind of domains the captains of industry go home to, the stone finials, the wrought iron gates and the topiary. The same people put up the brutish architecture we have enjoyed for the past 50+ years. I have the same opinion you do about the faceless streetscapes that some people need to defend. We are at a point where downtowns look no more user-friendly than industrial parkland.

Incredible as to totally ignoring factual statements about an area you both obviously know nothing about except for a slanted website with photos..WOW what a source as well as posibly having been to the local at some point looking for newstands. How about starting one about how evil "The Man" is and rant about that as well??

Please carry on this conversation amongst yourselves as you're the experts.

[DetroitDad]

Isn't the People Mover overly expensive to operate?

It would cost about $4.00 to $5.00 per person for the People Mover to pay for itself [[theoretically taking into account a decrease in ridership due to the price hike).

Interestingly, this is how much the Las Vegas Monorail charges, which offers an alternative to the gridlock and overly crowded Las Vegas Strip.

I'm not sure if there is any chance for the People Mover to charge much more than it does now, without an actual demand for it's services. The Las Vegas Monorail costs a lot, but it is a reliable alternative to dealing with traffic and parking [[pedestrian and auto), is on a heavily traveled tourist route, is clean, is fast, is quite, and has air conditioning that actually works. The light rail line on Woodward stands to be better positioned as both a tourist and local line.

A better idea for the People Mover might be to cut costs [[one car operation, closing of unused stations and removal of trains at off times, when people aren't in a hurry). It just might make more sense to decommission and demolish the People Mover, sending it to the history books, written off as a failed experiment, after a more modern and efficient alternative can take it's place. Some inherent flaws with the People Mover have been said [[by some DY posters in the past) to be it's noise, cost of daily maintenance, cost of major repair and renovation, and thanks to it's elevated track and direct connection to popular buildings, it does not contribute to the life of the street, and in many cases, can detract from it [[good if overcrowding was an issue).

I'm not really sure how much money would be saved by utilizing modern light rail at street grade, over the People Mover. It is going to have to work for a little while, at least. Who knows? Five years ago the Red Line Downtown bus loop still mirrored the People Mover, and was cut. Maybe one day a purpose will be realized, or a train can be preserved in one of our museums. One of the cars might also make a good diner some day.

PS: I just wanted to add that if you walk a block or two off the Strip, everything backs up to concrete, parking lots, parking garages, and vacant lots in Las Vegas. It looked no different from Detroit, on an urban design and use stand point, and was primarily designed for cars, like most of AmeriCCCa. When someone mentioned how much Las Vegas always grows, changes, and moves forward, our driver on our last trip [[who sounded a bit like Rodney Dangerfield) told us;

"yeah folks, I hope you enjoyed Las Vegas. [[Turning to my wife and I) I'll tell ya what, when your daughter.... she's what, almost one? In two decades, when she's twenty-one, she won't want to come to Las Vegas. Of course, I don't believe like you all believe, I'll tell ya' what, I believe Las Vegas is becoming a dust bowl, and that's just from what I've seen goin' on [[motioning to a gloomy scene that reminded me too much of home, half the homes and buildings were abandoned and decaying, only the sand would give away that this was Last Vegas, and not Detroit).

This was a common view that I heard on that trip, and one that the folks on the urban and local podcasting and blog sites seem to have picked up on [[such as Kunstlercast, and various blogs).

Censored.

[DetroitDad]

GOD DAMN!! Fucking incredible as to totally ignoring factual statements about an area you both obviously know nothing about except for a slanted website with photos..WOW what a source as well as posibly having been to the local at some point looking for newstands. How about starting one about how evil "The Man" is and rant about that as well??

Please carry on this conversation amongst yourselves as you're the fucking experts.

You can sometimes tell where a [[American) city's reputation is headed by looking at the popular searches and photos that come up when you "Google" them. This is not necessarily the reality of the city, but is rather where a city's downtown reputation is comfortably heading; a mix of where they have been and where they want to be, with emphasis on the later.

Results for various cities with the reputation that was alluded to above, when discussing Atlanta:

• Downtown Atlanta, Georgia
• Downtown Houston, Texas
• Downtown Los Angeles, California

Results for other cities to compare to:

• Downtown Kansas City, Missouri
• Downtown Des Moines, Iowa
• Downtown Miami, Florida
• Downtown Washington D.C.
• Downtown Denver, Colorado
• Downtown Chicago, Illinois
  
• Downtown New York City, New York

Michigan cities to compare:

• Downtown Detroit, Michigan
• Downtown Grand Rapids, Michigan
• Downtown Flint, Michigan
• Downtown Saginaw, Michigan

Michigan's city's search results have apparently come a long way since before the period I will call The Detroit Super Bowl Campaign. I vaguely remember pictures of riots, police brutality, and blight pictures with racial subtext coming up on the top of searches for all of Michigan's urban centers.