Why Have We Decided That A Guy Who Became A Billionaire Selling Us Cheap Pizza Is God

[27 Mile]

Where was Illitch going to build the new arena if Detroit didn't give him the sweetheart deal? What other neighboring town could have even come close to the deal Detroit offered him? I suppose LBP's failed wasteland on Telegraph in Pontiac/Bloomfield Twp would have been an intriguing spot.

[Bill Simpson]

Honky Tonk - You shouldn't look at Illitch as God. The man closest to God in Detroit is Rev. Horace L. Sheffield, III. See the link below for his god-like attributes. http://worldaidsdayus.org/staff-view...sheffield-iii/

[Honky Tonk]

Honky Tonk - You shouldn't look at Illitch as God. The man closest to God in Detroit is Rev. Horace L. Sheffield, III. See the link below for his god-like attributes. http://worldaidsdayus.org/staff-view...sheffield-iii/

Thanx for the link, but I'm familiar with Reverend Sheffield and his works and his prompts. That said, I merely quoted an article, [[link included in my original post). They aren't my words or beliefs.

[Honky Tonk]

Where was Illitch going to build the new arena if Detroit didn't give him the sweetheart deal? What other neighboring town could have even come close to the deal Detroit offered him? I suppose LBP's failed wasteland on Telegraph in Pontiac/Bloomfield Twp would have been an intriguing spot.

Actually, I think that would have made a damn good spot for the new stadium. And from what I'm reading, Oakland County could use the "150 new jobs" it would create.

[emu steve]

I would argue that Midtown's growth is largely due to the success of the downtown area. The downtown area has been improved by Comerica and Ford Field. Face it, it the Tigers/Lions/Red Wings weren't downtown and in the suburbs, hundreds of thousands of metro Detroiters would never enter the city. The arenas have created more awareness of the cities problems which is important, but also added a lot of optimism for those people who come from Detroit inner city blood.

The more commerce, activities, and events in the downtown area spur interest and ultimately help the city. I grew up in the city in the 70s and 80s, downtown is much better now IMO.

Agree 100%.

Folks here cheer every building, typically small, which is redeveloped or developed [[e.g., a CVS), yet something huge is dismissed out of hand as being of minimal impact.

I don't get it.

Isn't an arena more significant than renovating a 15 unit residential building?

I'll repeat an opinion I have expressed: In an area as large as CBD, downtown, Midtown, etc. there isn't anything like 'insignificant' development.

There is plenty of vacant land for an arena, soccer stadium, apartment buildings, hotels, office buildings, CVS, McDonalds, Whole Foods, medical offices, etc.

Just keep building! Just keep redeveloping!

[rb336]

If there isn't statistically reliable evidence, I'm skeptical. Given that economists, from far left to far right, basically universally agree that subsidizing sports arenas is a bad economic bet, I will defer to their expertise

deferring to any economist's expertise is usually a bad bet.

Why did the economists invent astrology? they needed something that would make economics look scientific by comparison.

[RaumVogel]

Spend spend! spend!! If the entity defaults...who cares?

I t will only add to the deficit...and the taxpayers have that handled. /s

[27 Mile]

Can anyone actually quantify this midtown growth? Everything I see seems heavily subsidized. I see the uptick in building remodels, but are there that many college educated people moving into town?

[douglasm]

One thing that hasn't been noted in this whole conversation is that Joe Louis Arena is one of the older NHL venues, with 2 of the 4 older arenas in the league being considered for replacement......the exceptions being Madison Square Garden and Winnipeg's MTS Centre, which really could use an expansion. Also I'm going to assume that a 35 year old arena is not "state of the art", and that the new barn will be designed for more than hockey, and will be able to stage smaller events for example.

As to economic impact, it's hard to judge. It's not a "new" venue, obviously replacing the Joe, but a look at other "replacements" might be in order, for example what was the impact of Comerica Park when it replaced Briggs Stadium. I do know that the Safeco/Centruy Link Field complex [[which replaced The Kingdome) in Seattle was a BIG economic boost to Pioneer Square and the area south of the dome [[SODO), and those stadia were build on land that was occupied by the old facility.

[27 Mile]

Actually, I think that would have made a damn good spot for the new stadium. And from what I'm reading, Oakland County could use the "150 new jobs" it would create.

Was that one of the potential sites? There was always this threat of going to the burbs, but were there any serious considerations?

[Wesley Mouch]

Was that one of the potential sites? There was always this threat of going to the burbs, but were there any serious considerations?

Yes. Before Ilitch bought the Wings it was owned by Bruce Norris. Norris announced a conceptual move to Silverdome area. My memory of these events almost 35 years ago are getting weak, but I recall that this was a factor in getting JLA done.

I specifically remember a Coleman quote when someone with the Wings said they would NOT move into a new downtown arena. CAY: 'Go ahead and move. We'll find get our own team downtown.'

Remember that this was the era of Gretzky and the World Hockey Association. Mark Howe played 6 seasons in the WHA. Gordie Howe also played for them. The WHA merged into the NHL in 1979 -- but the threat was real. And Young made Norris and Co. blink. They did eventually agree to come downtown into the new JLA.

[[Ilitch bought the Red Wings later. Then even later he bought Olympia Stadium Corp -- now Olympia Entertainment.)

So yes, there was serious discussion of the Wings moving out of downtown.

[27 Mile]

I'm referring to recently. Everyone said Detroit had to give Illitch the farm for this new arena or he would move. Well, where was he going to move? What town could give him all the land and the couple hundred million he got from Detroit?

[rb336]

I'm referring to recently. Everyone said Detroit had to give Illitch the farm for this new arena or he would move. Well, where was he going to move? What town could give him all the land and the couple hundred million he got from Detroit?

The real threat was the possibility of moving to the Palace. After all this, people still can't get it through their skulls that this deal isn't really going to cost the city a damn thing, or, at most, very little, and it rids the city of a huge, empty plot of nothing. a plot of nothing for which, to my knowledge, nothing was ever planned

[antongast]

I'm referring to recently. Everyone said Detroit had to give Illitch the farm for this new arena or he would move. Well, where was he going to move? What town could give him all the land and the couple hundred million he got from Detroit?

I don't think anyone said that, at least nobody in the city or state government who was involved in approving this deal. What they said was "jobs" and "anything is better than what's there now." Threats are only necessary when the intended target isn't already committed to doing what you want them to do.

[Hypestyles]

You can't force the demand.

yes you can. Build it, bankroll it, they will come.

[emu steve]

The real threat was the possibility of moving to the Palace. After all this, people still can't get it through their skulls that this deal isn't really going to cost the city a damn thing, or, at most, very little, and it rids the city of a huge, empty plot of nothing. a plot of nothing for which, to my knowledge, nothing was ever planned

Yep, if it were not for the 'demand' created by [[past) rumors of an arena behind the Fox or on Woodward all of this land had almost zero value.

Interesting in the 'soccer' thread, I suggested a stadium on Cass/2nd/Ledyard/Henry and Detroit Planner said that land was 'too valuable' for a soccer stadium. Well, without a hockey arena that area would be what it is today: an urban wasteland.

Folks take photos of all of the entertainment district north of the freeway because in 10 years it will look much, much different.

P.S. I said 10 YEARS, not one year or two years. This will take time.

[Bham1982]

deferring to any economist's expertise is usually a bad bet.

LOL, sure, ignore all the economists, who universally say subsidizing sports is bad business, and just go by the claims of random internet posters.

[rb336]

LOL, sure, ignore all the economists, who universally say subsidizing sports is bad business, and just go by the claims of random internet posters.

no, they don't all "universally agree" on a damn thing. Their statements are normally full of so many caveats that they become meaningless.

The vast majority of the studies focus on direct benefit rather than indirect. Why? because the indirect are very tough to quantify.

While they do not endorse stadiums, Siegfried & Zimbalist point out that when a stadium is combined with a year-round business district, they CAN help growth. They also point out that most studies done on the issue were done with projects like The Palace, comparing the stadiums/arenas to walled-n medieval cities.

This particular project already shows signs of being different as at least two proposals for development in that area have been announced. Remember, this proposal is not just for an arena. It includes office, retail and residential.

If you want to do a cost-benefit analysis, remember that the city is putting very little into this out of pocket, if anything. that is the cost. "Tax revenue will pay off the bonds" i hear you say. Yes, that is true. But it is tax revenue that does not exist now and will not exist if the arena district doesn't happen.

The benefit? a big empty hole between downtown and midtown will be filled, making for a much more walkable area. Residences will be built, further building toward a critical mass. The Joe will be gone, opening that space for either further expansion of Cobo or further greening of the riverfront.

Those are the givens. do you still think it is a bad idea?

[Bham1982]

no, they don't all "universally agree" on a damn thing.

Yes, in fact they do "universally agree".

Please find me an economist who supports public subsidies for sports teams.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yes, in fact they do "universally agree".

Please find me an economist who supports public subsidies for sports teams.

umm.... he cites one in the article above.

But Bham, you win most of this point. Economists in general are suspicious of the benefits -- and certainly the mainstream media reports the hell out of any study that doubts benefits.

I won't spar with you on what 'economists' think. Let me just say that few people in the world hold economist opinions as a gold standard. Think 2007.

[rb336]

I don't think they support them, but they say there are circumstances where they can be beneficial. The plan for the new arena is one of them and it already has drawn interest to the area from other developers. The real issue, as I see it, is cost/benefit. People have to stop thinking that this project will drain the city's coffers because it won't. It's like if you had a landlord and he help you plant an apple tree if you give him most the apples. He's not making anything, but it didn't cost him much and now he has all the apples he wants and you have a nice tree.

[nain rouge]

The people that live in Midtown don't really care about sports. Hell, just look at the bars in the Midtown area. Many don't have a TV, or maybe 1. An out-and-out sports bar doesn't exist, so far as as I can tell. If you think the art crowd is moving to Midtown to be closer to Ford Field, you're way off.

You might have some people living Downtown that pay $1,600 for an apartment and love that they can go to Tigers game and Buffalo Wild Wings all the time, but I question how big of a group that really is and I'd be hard-pressed to imagine it was worth the investment.

[emu steve]

I don't think they support them, but they say there are circumstances where they can be beneficial. The plan for the new arena is one of them and it already has drawn interest to the area from other developers. The real issue, as I see it, is cost/benefit. People have to stop thinking that this project will drain the city's coffers because it won't. It's like if you had a landlord and he help you plant an apple tree if you give him most the apples. He's not making anything, but it didn't cost him much and now he has all the apples he wants and you have a nice tree.

We've had this conversation [[thread) before.

We have been able to find a bunch of examples.

I 'contributed' two examples from D.C. i.e., Verizon Centre and Nationals' Park where sports facilities had made huge contribution to development of their respective areas.

I believe the 'bottom line' was it 'depends' if the planning was smart.

[canuck]

Wen the old forum died in Montreal, it was ressuscitated as a multiplex cinema with restaurants and bars, a liquor store etc... The neighborhood nosedived for a dozen years, a lot of the old standbys like the Texan steakhouse plummetted and did not follow where the money was around the new Bell Centre arena. Oddly, even though the Bell Centre is in a more central cluster of downtown, the nightlife around there is kind of blah, but there is a lot of construction there now, 6 condo towers are being built; two fifty floors and 4 forty floors within a block of the arena. I think this speaks volumes about the attractiveness of the sports arena downtown. If Montreal is ever going to get a new baseball team, the only way it will is if it gets a new stadium "downtown". Nobody will invest in a new team without this prerequisite. I hate the fact that the "Big Owe" sits almost unused, but I guess that is the cost of living in a wasteful, corrupt world.


I do hope for a new arena in Detroit, and it has to be downtown, because the city needs it. At least the city has land to work with. In Montreal, there is very little space left anywhere near to build on unless a major demo occurs.

[Wesley Mouch]

We also need to consider our situation. I detest government subsidizing Ilitch's business. But Detroit needs downtown activity. Past sporting related activity has helped downtown. Future activity will help. Losing teams to the burbs would hurt. So investing in future revenue and activity for Detroit makes sense. It makes no sense whatsoever for NYC or Boston.