Foreign Cars.

[jjw]

Many times on this site, I read about the glories of the automobile industry and how Michigan has benefited from them. Exactly how has Michigan benefited in the past 50 years or so? These three companies could care less about Michigan or the Michigan worker. It's all been about making a shitty product and then cramming it down people's throats. Sit back and take a look at the metro area and tell me how the cars have helped it. What a laugh. And guess what? Most folks around the country feel your pain but don't quite understand how we should feel sorry for your predictament.
The argument about foreign vs. domestic is old. Get over it. Don't forget to enjoy all that grass and cement on your way home from work today. That's if you got a job!

[jiminnm]

"How, exactly, do you propose rectifying the trade deficit before all US assets are drained by others??"

lilpup, I read an article recently stating the US has had trade deficits for about 200 years of our existence. So, I don't think the current situation is any particular cause for alarm.

A lot of folks here talk about keeping the "profits" for so-called American cars here. Are there, in fact, any profits from cars made in the US? It seems that the US makers have to continually discount their products or advertise the hell out of them to make sales. The last figures I saw before GM's bankruptcy, they were losing tons here but were very profitable overseas.

Lastly, if American manufacturers have to rely on high tariffs and folks like Buy American to buy only their products, then they're dead already. Manufacturing has gone global and mass product manufacturing will go to the cheapest maker who can meet the quality standards buyers demand for any given product. That's happening and nothing is going to stop it. We need to learn out to deal with it and what kind of products can be produced here, better and cheaper than elsewhere.

[Buy American]

You bet your ass I am a pro-domistic extremist.

Anyone who comes up with the lame excuse of purchasing a Toyota that was built here in the USA by American labor and says it's okay has their head buried in the sand. Anyone who says the profits don't go straight to Japan is kidding themselves, because they DO go straight to Japan, which helps THEIR economy. Who are you people supporting anyway? Japan or the United States of America? Japan is where the money you make is going. So, instead of stimulating our economy, you're stimulating Japan's economy. The reason Toyota is cheaper than a comparable US made automobile is because of unfair trade practices by Japan and the fact that Japan artificially devalues their yen so that they can sell their exports cheaper. Another reason is Toyota has only been making a big amount of cars for maybe 20 years, so they don't have a whole lot of retiree pensions to pay out. They don't give the same health care coverage for their U.S. employees as the American car companies do. Another myth is American made cars are overpriced garbage. If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler you'll find out that any one of these cars are at least as good, if not better than the new Toyotas selling today. BUY AMERICAN, no more excuses....but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway.

[crawford]

The reason Toyota is cheaper than a comparable US made automobile is because of unfair trade practices by Japan and the fact that Japan artificially devalues their yen so that they can sell their exports cheaper. .

1. Toyotas are more expensive, not cheaper, than American cars. American cars are overwhelemingly purchased with incentives and discounts. Toyota usually gets something close to MSRP.

2. Japan's Yen is extremely strong; in fact abnormally strong relative to its economic health. Its relative strength in the face of Japan's massive debtload and economic decline has been the subject of fascination for economists for years.

BTW, both of these points you make [[and your overall theme) sounds straight out of the 70's. Waaay out of date.

Outside of Michigan, the American consumer believes that Toyota is the quality product, and that Ford/GM is the product that requires deep incentives in order to enable market interest.

[darwinism]

You bet your ass I am a pro-domistic extremist.

Anyone who comes up with the lame excuse of purchasing a Toyota that was built here in the USA by American labor and says it's okay has their head buried in the sand. Anyone who says the profits don't go straight to Japan is kidding themselves, because they DO go straight to Japan, which helps THEIR economy. Who are you people supporting anyway? Japan or the United States of America? Japan is where the money you make is going. So, instead of stimulating our economy, you're stimulating Japan's economy. The reason Toyota is cheaper than a comparable US made automobile is because of unfair trade practices by Japan and the fact that Japan artificially devalues their yen so that they can sell their exports cheaper. Another reason is Toyota has only been making a big amount of cars for maybe 20 years, so they don't have a whole lot of retiree pensions to pay out. They don't give the same health care coverage for their U.S. employees as the American car companies do. Another myth is American made cars are overpriced garbage. If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler you'll find out that any one of these cars are at least as good, if not better than the new Toyotas selling today. BUY AMERICAN, no more excuses....but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway.

3 things:

#1: In order to PROVE who actually has their head buried in the sand, it would be crucial that you offer some solid citations, instead of just "your word" as the gospel.

#2: "If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler ....." - CORRECTION: Chrysler is now Italian-owned, in case you weren't aware. It has been since 6-months.

#3: "..... but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway." - PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE: Would your excuses above be considered "same old lame" excuses ? Just wondering.

[bailey]

You bet your ass I am a pro-domistic extremist.

Anyone who comes up with the lame excuse of purchasing a Toyota that was built here in the USA by American labor and says it's okay has their head buried in the sand. Anyone who says the profits don't go straight to Japan is kidding themselves, because they DO go straight to Japan, which helps THEIR economy. ....If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler you'll find out that any one of these cars are at least as good, if not better than the new Toyotas selling today. BUY AMERICAN, no more excuses....but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway.

So, again to sum up; we should all buy Fords, Chrysler or GM cars regardless if they actually employ any Americans to MAKE said car here in the U.S., but we must buy simply because the "profits" stay here. So those Mexican made Fords and Chinese Buicks are "American", but Toyotas made in Tennessee are not.

Also, how does buying a Chrysler...beingthat it is now an Italian [[fiat will eventually own 55%) company NOT the same as buying a Toyota built here?

[EMG]

Well here's what I have to say about it. I spent the better part of two decades working for a Big 3 company and having to drive its products. Through the years, I put up with mechanical failures and repeated ripoffs by rude and crafty dealer mechanics, where a visit for one problem usually lead to another at a cost of several hundred additional dollars, and yet I loyally kept my smile on, paid through the nose and said nothing because, after all, I wasn't one to bite the hand that fed me.

My reward for these years of blind loyalty was to see my job outsourced.

So no more loyalty from me. I now own a Honda, and my wife owns a Kia, and our newfound freedom has worked out better than even we would have ever dreamed. Nine years later we can honestly say we have nowhere NEAR the number of problems with our vehicles as we used to have with our Chryslers. The Honda's had a transmission replacement - fully covered under warranty, but otherwise is running perfectly at 87,000 plus miles, and the Kia's had a thing or two replaced, again, completely under warranty, and also is providing my wife complete satisfaction after over 30,000 miles. Dealer service is cheerful and prompt. Maybe "foreign" dealers work harder, because they know they have to earn respect from their customers rather than be able to count on Big 3 employees who have no choice but to buy what they produce.

Simply being "an American company" isn't good enough to make up for poor product and poor service. Neither my wife nor I nor any of our friends or family will ever own a Big 3 vehicle again.

P.S. And nobody's going to "guilt" us by trying to paint us as unpatriotic. These so-called "foreign" dealers employ real Americans in America too. The fact that they might be in states other than Michigan is irrelevant.

[EMG]

Many times on this site, I read about the glories of the automobile industry and how Michigan has benefited from them. Exactly how has Michigan benefited in the past 50 years or so? These three companies could care less about Michigan or the Michigan worker. It's all been about making a shitty product and then cramming it down people's throats. Sit back and take a look at the metro area and tell me how the cars have helped it. What a laugh. And guess what? Most folks around the country feel your pain but don't quite understand how we should feel sorry for your predictament.

I couldn't agree more. Great post.

[Bearinabox]

So, again to sum up; we should all buy Fords, Chrysler or GM cars regardless if they actually employ any Americans to MAKE said car here in the U.S., but we must buy simply because the "profits" stay here. So those Mexican made Fords and Chinese Buicks are "American", but Toyotas made in Tennessee are not.

Also, how does buying a Chrysler...beingthat it is now an Italian [[fiat will eventually own 55%) company NOT the same as buying a Toyota built here?

Tennessee is not "here." Tennessee is the state that elected Bob Corker to the Senate, and as such it can take a flying fuck at the moon as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather send my money to Mexico than Tennessee.

[Buy American]

Well here's what I have to say about it. I spent the better part of two decades working for a Big 3 company and having to drive its products. Through the years, I put up with mechanical failures and repeated ripoffs by rude and crafty dealer mechanics, where a visit for one problem usually lead to another at a cost of several hundred additional dollars, and yet I loyally kept my smile on, paid through the nose and said nothing because, after all, I wasn't one to bite the hand that fed me.

My reward for these years of blind loyalty was to see my job outsourced.

So no more loyalty from me. I now own a Honda, and my wife owns a Kia, and our newfound freedom has worked out better than even we would have ever dreamed. Nine years later we can honestly say we have nowhere NEAR the number of problems with our vehicles as we used to have with our Chryslers. The Honda's had a transmission replacement - fully covered under warranty, but otherwise is running perfectly at 87,000 plus miles, and the Kia's had a thing or two replaced, again, completely under warranty, and also is providing my wife complete satisfaction after over 30,000 miles. Dealer service is cheerful and prompt. Maybe "foreign" dealers work harder, because they know they have to earn respect from their customers rather than be able to count on Big 3 employees who have no choice but to buy what they produce.

Simply being "an American company" isn't good enough to make up for poor product and poor service. Neither my wife nor I nor any of our friends or family will ever own a Big 3 vehicle again.

P.S. And nobody's going to "guilt" us by trying to paint us as unpatriotic. These so-called "foreign" dealers employ real Americans in America too. The fact that they might be in states other than Michigan is irrelevant.

After working for the better part of two decades for whatever Big 3 company, I'll bet you'll be able to, or are now collecting a modest pension from said company. When that company goes under because of your perceived notion that American cars are pieces of junk, ask Kia or Honda to send you a check equalling your pension amount each month. In your dreams.

[EMG]

After working for the better part of two decades for whatever Big 3 company, I'll bet you'll be able to, or are now collecting a modest pension from said company. When that company goes under because of your perceived notion that American cars are pieces of junk, ask Kia or Honda to send you a check equalling your pension amount each month. In your dreams.

Anybody who honestly believes that there is any chance on earth that "that company" has a fighting chance of NOT "going under" by the time I'm eligible to receive a pension - THAT is the person who is really "dreaming." I'm planning for retirement on the assumption I will receive ZERO, which I most likely will.

Some people need to get out of denial and wake up to reality. The sooner they do that and move on, the more time they'll have to take the responsibility to secure their own futures. It may have hurt to hear McCain state the obvious when he said "[[the auto) jobs aren't coming back," but that doesn't make it any less the truth. There are reasons why Chrysler and GM went bankrupt while Toyota and Kia didn't. People took Iacocca at his word - they were able to find better cars, and they bought them.

[EMG]

Tennessee is not "here." Tennessee is the state that elected Bob Corker to the Senate, and as such it can take a flying fuck at the moon as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather send my money to Mexico than Tennessee.

And I'd rather send my money to a right to work state that has the guts to buck the unions - something that has to be done if America is ever going to have any chance of being able to compete in worldwide industry ever again.

[Buy American]

And I'd rather send my money to a right to work state that has the guts to buck the unions - something that has to be done if America is ever going to have any chance of being able to compete in worldwide industry ever again.

Without unions there will more than likely be much lower wages for everyone.
Unions brought low wage workers out of poverty.
Unions brought more flexibility for work and family needs.
Unions brought better health care benefits for all workers, not just union members.
Unions have been credited for bringing more safety and security in the workplace.

If you want to be paid less than minimum wage and work in a unsafe, unclean, less secure, bullying atmosphere, then buck the union buddy. It doesn't matter to me in the least, I'm set. I'm worried for my kids, their children, my other relatives, my neighbors and my friends. I see what's happening, you don't.

[cch]

What matters most is the bottom line....Chrysler's Headquarters is in Auburn Hills, they have assembly plants in Detroit. GM's headquarters is in the heart of Detroit. Ford's headquarters are in Dearborn. The profits from purchasing American cars, whether they were assembled in Canada or timbuckto, stay in the U.S. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Salaries earned by Americans working for foreign automakers stay here but the big profits from the sale of foreign automobiles assembled in the U.S. still go overseas. If I am wrong, please let me know.

the bottom line matters most? you're right, i have been worrying lately that the big 3's top execs don't get paid enough. making sure the suits keep their jobs is obviously far more important than supporting manufacturing jobs in the US.

[thatguy123]

Again it has been posted before but here is a story of a certain automaker pretty much saving a town [[heres a hint, it isnt one of the big 3) http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/workl...own/index.html

Unfortunately many posters here are ignorant to the fact of how taxes and money made in foreign countries works. The majority of the money Kia, Toyota ect make here STAYS HERE and goes to US investors and so forth. It also goes to pay US workers. Do they send some money out of the country, absolutely. But guess what....So does GM, Ford and Chrysler. 100% of any money made [[do any of the big 3 make money?) does not stay in the US.

Unfortunately this is a tough concept for people like "BuyAmerican" to understand so they will keep arguing about something they are completely wrong about because as another poster stated, they think they are the smartest people alive.

[Buy American]

the bottom line matters most? you're right, i have been worrying lately that the big 3's top execs don't get paid enough. making sure the suits keep their jobs is obviously far more important than supporting manufacturing jobs in the US.

The bottom line I am speaking of is what happens to the workers in Michigan and the U.S., and the economy.

Why nitpick?

[Bearinabox]

Again it has been posted before but here is a story of a certain automaker pretty much saving a town [[heres a hint, it isnt one of the big 3) http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/workl...own/index.html

So what you're saying is, between a Kia Sorento built 800 miles away in Georgia and a Chevy Equinox built 150 miles away in Ontario...

Nope, still not convinced.

[EMG]

Without unions there will more than likely be much lower wages for everyone.
Unions brought low wage workers out of poverty.
Unions brought more flexibility for work and family needs.
Unions brought better health care benefits for all workers, not just union members.
Unions have been credited for bringing more safety and security in the workplace.

If you want to be paid less than minimum wage and work in a unsafe, unclean, less secure, bullying atmosphere, then buck the union buddy. It doesn't matter to me in the least, I'm set. I'm worried for my kids, their children, my other relatives, my neighbors and my friends. I see what's happening, you don't.

Unions inflated wages beyond the fair market rate, resulting in a loss of jobs as manufacturers went overseas in search of cheaper labor. Lee Iacocca - way back in the '80s - offered Americans a choice between thousands of jobs paying $15 per hour or no jobs paying $45 per our. From the looks of things, unions have made their choice.

Unions lifted non-union boats through the early 80s. From that point on, non-union workers consistently gave up benefits so that UAW members could continue to be supported in the extravagant lifestyle to which they had become accustomed.

Unions were rightly credited for initially getting the ball rolling on safety and security in the workplace, true, but OSHA has now been in place for decades and there is continuing safety and security for all, even in right to work states where unions are no longer a factor and despite the fact that union membership and clout continues to steadily decline.

The minimum wage applies to everyone, not just union members.

Yes some wages will need to go down. Maybe it's time to recognize that the second home up north and the yacht are going to have to be sacrificed so that ALL Americans, not just an ever-dwindling spoiled few in the southeast corner of one of the 50 states, have a chance of employment.

As for the Big 3, they sold out our jobs to the overseas labor. So let them look overseas the next time they want some customers. Tens of thousands of shafted Americans no longer owe them one shred of loyalty.

[Buy American]

I'm posting to a brick wall. Like I said, I'm set, but I hate to see my loved ones, friends and neighbors losing their jobs, their homes, their benefits, one by one. Enough said from me, except

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA.
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!

[thatguy123]

I'm posting to a brick wall. Like I said, I'm set, but I hate to see my loved ones, friends and neighbors losing their jobs, their homes, their benefits, one by one. Enough said from me, except

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA.
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!

LOL this story, again, shows you are truly the brick wall. http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/workl...own/index.html

20,000 brand new US jobs says your little capitalized saying is WRONG and that you hold a absolutely ignorant position on an issue you are unfamiliar with.

[thatguy123]

So what you're saying is, between a Kia Sorento built 800 miles away in Georgia and a Chevy Equinox built 150 miles away in Ontario...

Nope, still not convinced.

Convinced of what? Congrats at failing to read the article.

[Bearinabox]

Convinced of what? Congrats at failing to read the article.

Convinced that I should care whether people in Georgia have jobs. Convinced that buying a Kia is in any way good for Southeast Michigan. Convinced that people who buy foreign cars and then blather about how patriotic they are because their foreign cars were assembled in the South aren't completely full of shit.

Look, I have no problem with people buying foreign cars. If you want a Kia for whatever reason, go ahead and buy one--you don't need to justify yourself to me. Just don't try to tell me that your Kia is better for the local economy than a Chevy or a Ford, because it isn't.

[darwinism]

I'm posting to a brick wall. Like I said, I'm set, but I hate to see my loved ones, friends and neighbors losing their jobs, their homes, their benefits, one by one. Enough said from me, except

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA.
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!

Buy American, I can certainly understand your fight and your plight. Frankly, I do not even know you enough to argue with you, but I do hope that for your loved ones' sake that you will help them realize that in order to be viable in the future, they will need to be versatile and not take things for granted.

As EMG stated above, the union has had a profound influence in history, but those days are in the past. Substantial improvements have occurred through the years, and many new union recruits these days don't even want to be in the union but were forced into contributing to the cause. I know a few of these folks myself.

You had mentioned time and again that even your own friend, who toiled for a long time as a Chrysler employee, decided NOT to buy a Chrysler product themselves when time comes for a new vehicle. I personally know 4 GM engineers, 2 retired and 2 current Tech Center employees. The 2 retired GM engineers swore that they would never buy any GM products in their lives. That's a bold statement from GM people themselves. The 2 current GM engineers are split, one recommended the 2009 Malibu to me, which I bought ..... while the other engineer prefers to be impartial, saying that although a few GM products have been stellar, there are still other GM products that are just crap.

Buy American, even if you can't change yourself, your willingness to help your loved ones, friends and neighbors think differently, would go a long way in helping them become more self-sufficient and employable, if they are ever laid-off. Going off on them like you do here on this forum, and forcing them to think exactly like you will do more harm to them than anything else.

[detrola]

Buy American,
I'm calling you out. Why can't you understand that when you buy a Ford, Chrysler, or GM car that is made in Canada or Mexico you are supporting, encouraging and enabling the continued OUTSOURCING of American manufacturing jobs. If the most popular cars in the the big three line up are made in Mexico that will mean more shifts for Mexican autoworkers. Sure the profits come back home. But those profits will only go so far to support workers at plants making models that don't sell. Eventually whole product lines are cut or underselling models are eliminated. This cost jobs. So keep saying there is nothing wrong with buying a Ford made in Mexico and keep watching more American jobs being outsourced. After all, if it's about the profit, there is far more profit to be realized by outsourcing the manufacturing of "domestic" cars to Mexico. The autoworkers of Mexico say "muy gracias Buy American".

Your failure to understand this point illustrates your inability to grasp the complex nature of this argument. If your goal is to support American autoworkers then buy cars built ONLY by American autoworkers. Simple as that. Even the UAW supports the idea of choosing "domestic" cars manufactured in America. They, at one time, listed cars that were better choices than others based on where they were manufactured. Wake up Buy America and live up to the ideal of your chosen moniker.

[cch]

The bottom line I am speaking of is what happens to the workers in Michigan and the U.S., and the economy.

Why nitpick?

because i think you're being short [[or past)-sighted.