Wurlitzer or Metropolitan

[esp1986]

And that is without parking. I don't think there is any good way to attach parking to the building. And I hope that developers and banks stop seeing that as a requirement as Central Detroit develops to be more walkable.

However, the two vacant lots across John R, facing Farmer could be built into a parking garage shared among a number of buildings. One of the lots is parking for the Lofts at Woodward Center, and the other looks like it is for Puppet Art.

It is a really tight squeeze to get a deck in there, without using lift technology like in Merhants Row. I don't think it could be done in a cost-effective manner, but it could provide doorstep parking to the Lofts at Woodward Center, while also taking away some of their views. Residents of the Wurlitzer and Metropolitan would have to go down and cross the street, just like would if they were parking in the Opera House garage. If more parking is really needed, it would make more sense to build a garage on the Opera House's surface lot.

Perhaps some of the KDG guys/gals can run some numbers and draw up some plans to present to the greedy lawyer. I'm sure they think about the potential of the buildings a lot, considering where their offices are.

BTW - Similarly, I've also often thought about how a huge office building could be built over the two parking lots in the Library/Broadway/Grand River/Gratiot block. There could be retail and entrances in both outside corners, but the offices could cantilever over the alley in the middle. That floor plate is so big, you'd only needing 10-11 floors for a half million square feet.

Problem is, even with a walkable downtown, a car is still a necessity in this region. Having an attached parking garage for residents will continue to be a big selling point as long as we live in such an autocentric region, therefore, developers will continue to necessitate parking garages.

[jsmyers]

Problem is, even with a walkable downtown, a car is still a necessity in this region.

http://www.zipcar.com/annarbor/find-cars

[esp1986]

http://www.zipcar.com/annarbor/find-cars

1) That is Ann Arbor.
2) Great if you occasionally need a car. In this region, people need cars on a daily basis. Almost anywhere someone needs to go requires a car to get there.

[jsmyers]

1) That is Ann Arbor.
2) Great if you occasionally need a car. In this region, people need cars on a daily basis. Almost anywhere someone needs to go requires a car to get there.

There are a lot of people who live in and near downtown who don't need a car on a daily basis. This population will only grow. ZipCar is all over the country. I only pointed a link to AA because it is a nearby example. I would be surprised if zip car doesn't move into central Detroit within a year of Woodward LRT opening. It might even happen sooner.

[casscorridor]

A false dichotomy indeed, but if somehow I was forced to make this decision, I would choose to save the Metropolitan, any day of the week. It is way more unique of a building.

[j to the jeremy]

There are a lot of people who live in and near downtown who don't need a car on a daily basis. This population will only grow. ZipCar is all over the country. I only pointed a link to AA because it is a nearby example. I would be surprised if zip car doesn't move into central Detroit within a year of Woodward LRT opening. It might even happen sooner.

They're coming soon, WSU is working on car-sharing.

[wolverine]

1) That is Ann Arbor.
2) Great if you occasionally need a car. In this region, people need cars on a daily basis. Almost anywhere someone needs to go requires a car to get there.

Totally agree.

Does anyone here that brings up carsharing services such as zipcar even use it? Anyone?

I'm a user, and trust me, it's not all that great. While gas, insurance, and parking is all inclusive with your monthly fee, it's annoying when your limited to the amount of hours under your plan. And when you go over the hours, the rates are awful...far more than renting a car from enterprise for a day.

When I lived in Ann Arbor, I owned a car and drove it once and awhile. The costs were just slightly more than using car sharing. When I moved to Chicago, owning a car seemed outrageous. Parking sticker fees, emissions tests, and then my apartment building's whopping $350/month for a non-guaranteed space made me switch to carsharing. I'd recommend it to anyone stuck in the same situation as I am, but it's nothing remarkable. In Detroit I wouldn't even bother. If I move back, I'm buying a car right away.

I don't think there needs to be a sacrifice when the Hudsons garage is nearby Parking across or down the street is normal for people in many dense downtown areas. Elevator or mezzanine garages are considered a high end luxury amenity. I don't understand why people think every building has to come with one attached.

[jsmyers]

For what its worth, my sister and brother in law live in Chicago [[not downtown) car-free and are members of Zipcar. They are pretty happy with the service.

[esp1986]

For what its worth, my sister and brother in law live in Chicago [[not downtown) car-free and are members of Zipcar. They are pretty happy with the service.

For what it's worth, all of the ammenities one would need in Chicago are not only in the city, but usually accessible via mass transit, something Detroit inherently lacks. For someone in business, it is a royal pain in the ass to not have a car in Metro Detroit. Despite working and living in Detroit, you could have one meeting in Troy and an hour later have one in Taylor, on a regular basis. In Chicago, 80-90% of business is within reach of mass transit. Not exactly a situation tailored to not having a car. This is not uncommon either. I have many friends in the same boat.

[jsmyers]

For what it's worth, all of the ammenities one would need in Chicago are not only in the city, but usually accessible via mass transit, something Detroit inherently lacks. For someone in business, it is a royal pain in the ass to not have a car in Metro Detroit. Despite working and living in Detroit, you could have one meeting in Troy and an hour later have one in Taylor, on a regular basis. In Chicago, 80-90% of business is within reach of mass transit. Not exactly a situation tailored to not having a car. This is not uncommon either. I have many friends in the same boat.

I didn't say that Detroit and Chicago are the same. I was only responding to: "Does anyone here that brings up carsharing services such as zipcar even use it? Anyone?"

There is also a big difference between discussing things as they are now, and as they may be in 5-10 years.

And I think if you look at employment density in Chicagoland, you'll find that a whole lot of edge city jobs are not transit accessible.

[wolverine]

For what its worth, my sister and brother in law live in Chicago [[not downtown) car-free and are members of Zipcar. They are pretty happy with the service.

Obviously everyone will have a different take. I'm driving a car probably 4-5 hours per month, but again, I'm sticking with membership because I'm required to. I have no other driving option otherwise...except maybe full day rentals from enterprise or hertz.

For cities that are dense urban areas, the program is completely justified. It's expensive to own, insure, and park a car here in Chicago. With zipcar, the hourly rates are high, but when you look at it in the long run, it's justified because you drive infrequently and everything you need is within walking distance.

But what about Detroit, where most places require you to drive to get to them in a reasonable amount of time?

No. This is not the kind of service you want to be using. You will quickly find that your expenses of using carsharing quickly double those of owning.

Trust me, as someone who has been able to compare both first hand, it just isn't going to work well in Detroit, even if they try to force it to work.

[jsmyers]

Trust me, as someone who has been able to compare both first hand, it just isn't going to work well in Detroit, even if they try to force it to work.

We'll see: Zipcar in Midtown

[detroiter79]

Why would one need to go for the other to be saved? There is ample parking everywhere and neither building has a large enough footprint for a parking structure. Actually, the best chance either one has to be saved, is if the other is renovated.

Ample parking? In Detroit? I think you'll find that a majority of large tenants looking to come into the city are citing the lack of parking as the number reason for not making a move downtown. Take a look at the cover of Crain's this week, David Friedman's entire strategy for Dan Gilbert was centered around parking.

[erikd]

Problem is, even with a walkable downtown, a car is still a necessity in this region. Having an attached parking garage for residents will continue to be a big selling point as long as we live in such an autocentric region, therefore, developers will continue to necessitate parking garages.

I don't see why attached parking would be a requirement for redeveloping the Wurlitzer Building. There are a number of buildings close to the Wurlitzer, of somewhat similar size and footprint, that have been redeveloped over the last few years without any attached, dedicated parking. The Eureka, Hartz, 1260 Library, and Library Lofts all come to mind. The recently renovated Lafer Building, located just a block and a half down Broadway, is almost identical in size and footprint to the Wurlitzer, and they don't have a dedicated parking garage or lot.

As far as tearing down the Wurlitzer to make room for a parking garage for the Metropolitan, it simply wouldn't work because the lot is far too small, and the DPM runs over the corner lot next to it.