Grosse Pointe Park, Detroit at odds over historic buildings

[bailey]

Bailey...

Here's your answer...

http://www.jeffersoneast.org/services.html

Unlike you or I, these people have a daily vested interest into not turning 2 business ON A MAJOR INTERSECTION into a bus shelter and cul-de-sac.

JEBA ... following the trend of activist groups wanting to hug buildings.... seems to be about 10 years late to the party. Where was the cavalry when the Deck closed? where was JEBA when the place was sold? It's two buildings on a corner in which the three other corners are gas stations or a closed rent-a-center. not exactly thriving and seamless urbanity there. The bus turnaround IS ALREADY THERE, its just in a different spot. There will be development. What's JEBA's plan? HOPE someone opens the deck.

[Augustiner]

The bus turnaround IS ALREADY THERE, its just in a different spot.

Yeah, but the way it's set up now, the Loop doesn't take up frontage on Jefferson. There's a zero-setback commercial building along Jefferson, and the buses turn in on Wayburn and lay over behind the building. I don't know who owns the lot on the NW corner of Jefferson and Maryland, but it seems like that could be redeveloped without affecting the bus turnaround.

What's JEBA's plan? HOPE someone opens the deck.

If you're a group advocating for a neighborhood, it makes sense to identify that neighborhood's assets and try to protect them. One of the major assets of that neighborhood is that there's a relatively intact strip of commercial buildings along Jefferson. Every time one of those buildings is knocked down, it diminishes the value of that asset. Now, could they have been more proactive about preserving those buildings in the past? Perhaps. Does that negate the argument being made now in favor of the buildings? I don't see that it does.

[GPCharles]

Bailey...

Unlike you or I, these people have a daily vested interest into not turning 2 business ON A MAJOR INTERSECTION into a bus shelter and cul-de-sac.

Note - these are two empty buildings, not 2 business locations, and they have been vacant for more than 5 years.

There are numerous storefront vacancies up and down East Jefferson from Alter Road to Chalmers. Potential tenants, please form a line on the north side of Jefferson.

[Gistok]

Note - these are two empty buildings, not 2 business locations, and they have been vacant for more than 5 years.

There are numerous storefront vacancies up and down East Jefferson from Alter Road to Chalmers. Potential tenants, please form a line on the north side of Jefferson.

Gee empty for 5 years... didn't GPP try to market them?? Or was just more of their master plan to level everything near the border between the 2 cities.... I remember being in that arts building at the other end of the block... it WAS a nice building.... but it must have been derelict... since it's now gone.

Do we know WHO made the decisions for this supposed "exchange" of property?? Was it done under the Kilpatrick administration?? If we did it would answer GPCharles and Baileys accusations of current back room dealings. Until we do, their current accusations are little more than speculation...

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Gistok
A very appropriate post, if you look at their Banner, the subject corner is prominently displayed.

[bailey]

Gistok
A very appropriate post, if you look at their Banner, the subject corner is prominently displayed.

No. its not. The "subject corner" of the dispute between GPP and Detroit is Alter and Jefferson. the banner is of Jeff and Chalmers.

Gee empty for 5 years... didn't GPP try to market them?? Or was just more of their master plan to level everything near the border between the 2 cities.... I remember being in that arts building at the other end of the block... it WAS a nice building.... but it must have been derelict... since it's now gone.

Why would GPP try to market a property IT ONLY BOUGHT TO TEAR DOWN? seriously why the fuck would GPP be "marketing" them? GPP's plan was public from day one. The plan was to buy them to tear them down. IIRC they used the proposal to sell a bond initiative to GPPers for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of tearing down these and other blighted rentals in the city.

Do we know WHO made the decisions for this supposed "exchange" of property?? Was it done under the Kilpatrick administration?? If we did it would answer GPCharles and Baileys accusations of current back room dealings. Until we do, their current accusations are little more than speculation...

Uh well it was done in 07 so, yeah it was during the reign of kwame. But who cares? Clearly what happened was deep pockets entered the scene and Detroit decided to change the rules AFTER the property was prepped for DEMOLITION. The properties as they stand now are not salvageable. as the article notes, all systems, insulation and interiors were removed ...again...in preparation for demo...that is until the rules were changed.

But yeah, it's evil GP looking to steal detroit jewels again.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Brother Bailey
Please look to the lower right hand corner of the banner, it just a frickin picture of a map but the intersection in question is there Holmes

"No. its not. The "subject corner" of the dispute between GPP and Detroit is Alter and Jefferson. the banner is of Jeff and Chalmers".

[Rocko]

From Alter Road west is the Jefferson-Chalmers Historic Business District. It's on the National Register [[which does deem it "historic" since it follows a set of clarified criteria). If the Detroit HDC is involved, it must also be a local historic district. I'll do some hunting around and see if I can dig up any more specifics. In the meantime, educate thyself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffers...iness_District
http://www.detroitmi.gov/LinkClick.a...=3096&mid=4357


This development is also just getting underway down the street....development is not dead on far E. Jefferson!!

Chalmers Square

Shelborne Development is the developer that will renovate and rehabilitate three buildings on Detroit's east side to create a mixture of low-income and market-rate units, for a total of 49 loft-style apartments along with 18,000 sq. ft. of retail space on E. Jefferson. The buildings are located at 14401 and 14436 E. Jefferson and 1025 Newport St.
Total investment for the project is estimated at $9.3 million for an expected MBT credit of $1.4 million.

[begingri]

Plea for Detroit building at Jefferson and Alter: Fix or tear down


BY CECIL ANGEL
DETROIT FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

From his Mobil gas station at Jefferson and Alter on Detroit's east side, Mousa Bazzi has a clear view of the derelict two-story buildings that are at the center of a court case pitting Grosse Pointe Park against the Detroit Historic District Commission.

"It's an eyesore," said Bazzi, who also owns the Marathon gas station across from the buildings. "Either develop it or give it to someone to develop it or let the City of Grosse Pointe Park tear it down."

Officials in the suburb that borders Detroit planned to demolish the buildings as part of a land swap with the Detroit Department of Transportation. DDOT owns land in Grosse Pointe Park that it uses as a bus turnaround.

But the commission blocked the demolition. Grosse Pointe Park officials sought appeals with the state and in Wayne County Circuit Court, and now the case has been appealed to the state Court of Appeals.

Both sides have until March 24 to file briefs. Grosse Pointe Park has said the buildings are a safety hazard and must be torn down, but commission officials say the buildings are salvageable.

The City of Grosse Pointe Park purchased the buildings in December 2006. One was built in 1918 and housed the long-closed Deck Bar at 14901-14915 E. Jefferson. The other, a party store at 14917 E. Jefferson, was built in 1920.
City of Detroit attorney John Nader said, "We've been trying to settle this for the longest time."

"We're working to get a developer to develop it. It would be a win-win," he said.
Grosse Pointe Park Mayor Palmer Heenan said Thursday that the city "seriously would look at anyone who wanted to buy it." His city is looking at a $550,000 budget shortfall and the sale could help.

"I'm hoping that Mayor [[Dave) Bing will be helpful in this matter," Heenan said of the demolition. He said he was trying to get an appointment with the Detroit mayor.
Down the street at Marshall's Bar, Ted Kapuscinski Jr., the son of the owner, said he doesn't want to see the buildings torn down. "I think that would be horrible," he said. But, he added, "if it's going to sit there, tear it down."

Catherine Laiho, a bartender at Marshall's, said: "I have mixed feelings. There's a part of me that wants to keep the old building because when you tear it down, you can't get it back."


Source: http://www.freep.com/article/2011022...0328/1001/news

[animatedmartian]

Seem this building has gone to the bulldozer. No word on what allowed its demolition.

https://www.facebook.com/HistoricDet...1363009930456/

[Danny]

Listen up Richville. Those buildings in corner of E. Jefferson and Alter Rd belong to Detroit the other buildings near Wayburn Loop belongs to you all. Same goes with Kercheval Rd and Alter Rd and E. Vernor and Alter Rd. so deal with it less you all want to build your Berlin Wall to keep the hoodies out! I know for a fact 10 years ago you have the apartment complex on Maryland St. next to St. Ambrose Catholic Church torn down because it look like crackhead motel. Knock it off!

Seem this building has gone to the bulldozer. No word on what allowed its demolition.

https://www.facebook.com/HistoricDet...1363009930456/

I betcha those Richville told the owners to tear it down because they can't stand looking a place where crackheads and squatters live.

[GPCharles]

Lighten up folks. GPP has been trying to sell the buildings forever. CVS, Walgreens and Rite-Aid all passed on the corner. The scrappers have stripped it bare. It was originally a bank, I believe. What bank would go there now? What was your plan for the building other than pie in the sky hopes?

[bailey]

Just leaving this here....

August-20-14, 10:32 AM #355 bailey
havent seen the actual agreement but was just speaking with someone who should have good info and was told [[ALLEGEDLY) part of the deal [to resolve the Kercheval "blockade"] is the tear down of the Deck bar & party story buildings and finally moving the bus turnout that has been stalled since 06. If true, that means Duggan just threw the DHD under the bus...

[animatedmartian]

^^^ I had a feeling that's what happened.

[nain rouge]

I'd say those buildings weren't a big deal, ultimately. GPP has tons of historic urban appeal that is still 100% viable and even thriving. We should be considering how we can lift GPP up more and make the neighboring Detroit streets safe areas ripe for new urban construction that feeds off of GPP and Jefferson & Chalmers. With relatively close proximity to hip Detroit neighborhoods and historic shoreline assets [[plus the intriguing Conner Park Greenway), this is an important area if Detroit is ever going to come back. It has good urban bones and plenty of space.

Of course, given the crime and decay on Detroit's east side, such ideas might sound insane to some. But unless you want huge swathes of Detroit to become tree farms, this is the only hope.

[Mackinaw]

I agree with Bailey's analysis, and am tremendously disappointed in the executive leadership of both GPP [[for their outrageous urban planning views, disregard for preservation -- displayed over and over again in the west Park area, and tantrums on Kercheval which set up this quid pro quo leverage) and Detroit [[Duggan seems to have just flouted the Historic District Commission while caving to GPPark).

This smallish building DOES matter because it forms an entryway to historic GP Park and carries forward a little piece of pre-Depression Jefferson, which is increasingly hard to find. The historic storefronts of old E. Jefferson in GPP also had a continuity with those on the Detroit side, easing [[at least physically) the stark contrast between the two municipalities. Moreover, GPP has been on a demolition frenzy on East Jefferson. They'd rather it look like Telegraph in Oakland County than the real urban corridor it was for generations. Disgraceful planning.

[nain rouge]

Some of Detroit needs to be modern, even if it's modern urban development. Between GPP and Jefferson & Chalmers, we have enough historic urban architecture. The real problem is we can't get many people to willingly live on Detroit's east side, and you're not going to fix that by propping up the ruins of the past. If those areas in Detroit were thriving or at least doing OK, but were demolished anyway, then I'd be outraged.

[canuck]

I agree with Bailey's analysis, and am tremendously disappointed in the executive leadership of both GPP [[for their outrageous urban planning views, disregard for preservation -- displayed over and over again in the west Park area, and tantrums on Kercheval which set up this quid pro quo leverage) and Detroit [[Duggan seems to have just flouted the Historic District Commission while caving to GPPark).

This smallish building DOES matter because it forms an entryway to historic GP Park and carries forward a little piece of pre-Depression Jefferson, which is increasingly hard to find. The historic storefronts of old E. Jefferson in GPP also had a continuity with those on the Detroit side, easing [[at least physically) the stark contrast between the two municipalities. Moreover, GPP has been on a demolition frenzy on East Jefferson. They'd rather it look like Telegraph in Oakland County than the real urban corridor it was for generations. Disgraceful planning.

I agree. There is a total lack of imagination in view of all buildings of interest. There are many different levels of finish and character in the Detroit venacular. A lot of commercial bldgs are quite ordinary. The bank bldg on that corner was important and should have been saved.

[animatedmartian]

Some of Detroit needs to be modern, even if it's modern urban development. Between GPP and Jefferson & Chalmers, we have enough historic urban architecture. The real problem is we can't get many people to willingly live on Detroit's east side, and you're not going to fix that by propping up the ruins of the past. If those areas in Detroit were thriving or at least doing OK, but were demolished anyway, then I'd be outraged.

There's no such thing as "enough" historic architecture. Once it's gone, it's gone forever.

This building specifically wasn't even in bad shape from the outside. It was less than 50 feet from a thriving suburb and no one thought it could be easily fixed up and reused?

[canuck]

There's no such thing as "enough" historic architecture. Once it's gone, it's gone forever.

This building specifically wasn't even in bad shape from the outside. It was less than 50 feet from a thriving suburb and no one thought it could be easily fixed up and reused?

I think that GP didn't want to sell it. It would be nice to examine the log of whoever made appointments with potential buyers.

[nain rouge]

There's no such thing as "enough" historic architecture. Once it's gone, it's gone forever.

Should New York disallow any new construction? I am a strong proponent of historical preservation, but there are limits. If there was a viable neighborhood in that area of Detroit, I'd have more issues with what happened. Go talk a walk in the Detroit neighborhood between Jefferson and Kercheval [[ha, as if you would). There's practically nothing there. That's an area that needs extensive redevelopment and saving a few old buildings won't make a lick of difference.

Now, if someone wanted to demolish the Jefferson Chalmers business district, I'd be upset. The neighborhood south of Jefferson is still viable.

Sorry, but sometimes you lose a battle and have to admit defeat.

[MAcc]

Good for The Pointes.

Related note, are The Pointes doing anything to buy and tear down the saddest houses in the Cabbage Patch?

There was a proposed mill hike to get $7M towards the effort during the foreclosure crisis. Did anything come of it? see: http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/ca...nt?oid=2185710

[bailey]

There's no such thing as "enough" historic architecture. Once it's gone, it's gone forever.

true, but is every single "old" building automatically "historic" and forever off limits to any redevelopment?

This building specifically wasn't even in bad shape from the outside. It was less than 50 feet from a thriving suburb and no one thought it could be easily fixed up and reused?

Just to bring this back around to the original plan from almost a decade ago ... GP only bought the blighted property to tear it down, swap that parcel with those that DDOT had in GPP that hinder development of a cohesive block there, and put the DDOT bus turn around in a spot that made more sense. This was all to be done at GP's expense. Another city paying to remove blight inside yours, enhance your public transportation and redevelop a bordering commercial area? Pretty sweet deal IMHO. Going back to those heady pre-recession days in 04-05, the "plan" was to then redevelop the blocks along that area in GPP into multi use buildings. Much of that redevelopment was a casualty to the recession. In the mean time the Deck building sat and rotted because GP had already partially demoed it after the purchase. None of the other development happened because of the economy and the uncertainty about the DDOT turn around land swap as the whole thing was tied up with JEBA and the DHDC--out of nowhere-- declaring the building "historic". Again, it's funny the building only becomes a "historic" jewel after GP buys it and enters into the land swap deal.

[animatedmartian]

Should New York disallow any new construction? I am a strong proponent of historical preservation, but there are limits. If there was a viable neighborhood in that area of Detroit, I'd have more issues with what happened. Go talk a walk in the Detroit neighborhood between Jefferson and Kercheval [[ha, as if you would). There's practically nothing there. That's an area that needs extensive redevelopment and saving a few old buildings won't make a lick of difference.

Now, if someone wanted to demolish the Jefferson Chalmers business district, I'd be upset. The neighborhood south of Jefferson is still viable.

Sorry, but sometimes you lose a battle and have to admit defeat.[/COLOR]

New York disallows new construction in many areas of the city.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/home/home.shtml

There is no set quota on what % of the city is preserved and there is no such thing as "having enough" historical architecture.

The issue is that Grosse Pointe Park had the means to revitalize a building that they owned. It's not like the City of Detroit who is starving for money and owns a lot of large and vacant properties, but GPP could have very easily renovated that building and put it to productive use. It's doesn't make a lick of difference the condition of the rest of the neighborhood, GPP had the opportunity to contribute and improve a little part of the neighborhood but choose not to. Even if it wasn't a historical building, they still wasted an easy opportunity.

[nain rouge]

Why did the previous businesses there fail? Why is the neighborhood failing? Is tiny GPP in a situation to fix the overwhelming issues with that location at the time being?

If you think fixing Detroit should be as easy as handing over properties to GPP, we should dissolve Detroit and divvy up the properties between the rest of the metro area. Warren can fix Van Dyke. The Pointes can fix Jefferson and Kercheval. Birmingham will tidy up all of Woodward.