Ilitch announces Huge plans for Red Wings Arena Project - Renderings Released

[EL Jimbo]

I think what you mean is, "Some property owners were asking for more money than Mr. Ilitch was willing to spend." To say that these owners "held up Comerica Park and the arena" implies that there was not sufficient land to construct either project. The vast Ilitch-owned wastelands west of the Fox and north of the Fisher Freeway tell me this is not the case.



Vision? This is no vision. It's a mall.




Excuse me: What the fuck does apartment occupancy have to do with building a subsidized hockey arena?



So let Olympia build it themselves. Mike Ilitch can cut a personal check--he has more money than the City of Detroit does.




This is one of the most naive comments on city building anyone could make. People were going downtown long before you discovered Comerica Park. If downtown wasn't safe, people would never have gone to Comerica Park in the first place--just like they would not have gone to Michigan and Trumbull. Comerica Park didn't make anything "safer", and neither will the arena.

What's your solution for rebuilding other areas of downtown, like Michigan Avenue or Gratiot--build another $400 million stadium to show how safe it is?

I see you've intentionally ignored my questions as well as tried to change the argument. You asked about a "demand meter". I gave you the answer and now suddenly it doesn't matter anymore? There's really no point in continuing this discussion. You don't like it and there is no amount of logic or differing perspective that can sway you on this.

[ghettopalmetto]

I see you've intentionally ignored my questions as well as tried to change the argument. You asked about a "demand meter". I gave you the answer and now suddenly it doesn't matter anymore? There's really no point in continuing this discussion. You don't like it and there is no amount of logic or differing perspective that can sway you on this.

You're talking about occupancy rates of apartments, as demonstrating that there is "demand" for a subsidized hockey arena. One does not lead to the other.

High occupancy rates for apartments means that there is high demand for apartments at current price points. That's it. No more, no less. It has nothing to do with hockey or Billionaire Welfare Queens.

[bailey]

You're talking about occupancy rates of apartments, as demonstrating that there is "demand" for a subsidized hockey arena. One does not lead to the other.

No. that is not what anyone is saying. the "demand" is for all the alleged development around the stadium.
Olympia is claiming they'll build some of this contemporaneously with the stadium. as well as on the parking lots behind the church on woodward because there wasn't the demand before...and now there is. I dont trust anything about that claim...but it is what it is.

[Honky Tonk]

No. that is not what anyone is saying. the "demand" is for all the alleged development around the stadium.
Olympia is claiming they'll build some of this contemporaneously with the stadium. as well as on the parking lots behind the church on woodward because there wasn't the demand before...and now there is. I dont trust anything about that claim...but it is what it is.

Ilitch has to make that claim because, as it was pointed out, he stands to gain a cool $60 mil from the DEGC for "developing" that area.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ilitch has to make that claim because, as it was pointed out, he stands to gain a cool $60 mil from the DEGC for "developing" that area.

Bingo. Nobody has prevented Ol' Mike from constructing apartments on his moonscape [[or bringing his existing dilapidated properties into a State of Good Repair, for that matter). We've seen numerous buildings undergo renovation and construction while the Macedonian Mob sat on their asses, waiting for a shake down of the City again, er, "waiting for demand". This is all about grabbing as much public ca$hola as possible, and it keeps happening because the apologists believe every single word that comes out of that lying bastard's mouth, and attempt to shout down anyone who doesn't live in their economic fantasyland. Because, Stanley Cup or something.

[bailey]

Bingo. Nobody has prevented Ol' Mike from constructing apartments on his moonscape [[or bringing his existing dilapidated properties into a State of Good Repair, for that matter). We've seen numerous buildings undergo renovation and construction while the Macedonian Mob sat on their asses, waiting for a shake down of the City again, er, "waiting for demand". This is all about grabbing as much public ca$hola as possible, and it keeps happening because the apologists believe every single word that comes out of that lying bastard's mouth, and attempt to shout down anyone who doesn't live in their economic fantasyland. Because, Stanley Cup or something.

regardless, he doesn't get the money unless the shovels go in the ground... so I suppose that's something.

Again, not that I believe anything other than parking decks and stadium will be built by Olympia.

[EL Jimbo]

Bingo. Nobody has prevented Ol' Mike from constructing apartments on his moonscape [[or bringing his existing dilapidated properties into a State of Good Repair, for that matter). We've seen numerous buildings undergo renovation and construction while the Macedonian Mob sat on their asses, waiting for a shake down of the City again, er, "waiting for demand". This is all about grabbing as much public ca$hola as possible, and it keeps happening because the apologists believe every single word that comes out of that lying bastard's mouth, and attempt to shout down anyone who doesn't live in their economic fantasyland. Because, Stanley Cup or something.

Except virtually every single other major development that required reconstruction or significant renovation to a building over the last decade or so hasn't happened in Detroit without some form of subsidizing from various private and public sources. Remember when the Book-Cadillac required something like 23 different forms of funding, most of them public, in order to get done?

Why do they get a pass on their "ca$hola" in your eyes yet you hammer the Ilitches as being the "Macedonian Mob"?

The bottom line is that rental rates in Detroit have yet to rise to the point where a building is profitable to build, renovate, etc without some form of subsidizing. We are getting very close to that point, but not yet. Until it does, expect more subsidies. That is the reality of the situation. Right now, the city has to invest in itself because the market doesn't believe in the city enough to jump in with both feet yet. This development could help put the city over the top of that threshold.

[ghettopalmetto]

Except virtually every single other major development that required reconstruction or significant renovation to a building over the last decade or so hasn't happened in Detroit without some form of subsidizing from various private and public sources. Remember when the Book-Cadillac required something like 23 different forms of funding, most of them public, in order to get done?

Why do they get a pass on their "ca$hola" in your eyes yet you hammer the Ilitches as being the "Macedonian Mob"?

When the Book-Cadillac renovation began, Ferchill applied for tax credits and various forms of financing for that very specific project. Similar scenarios played out for other projects. These were all for very specific projects whose scope was well-defined. While other owners were using an established process to procure financing for their projects, Mike Ilitch was nowhere to be seen, instead choosing to let his properties deteriorate further. You haven't seen the United Artists Apartments yet, have you?

Now Mike Ilitch says, "I want a new hockey arena. Give me some money. Oh yeah, I'll maybe build some other stuff too." The scope here is poorly-defined, to put it kindly. There is no guarantee that Ilitch will build anything whatsoever, other than an arena and parking. Detroit and Michigan have provided Mr. Ilitch with a check, using funding sources unavailable to "traditional" developers of residential property. There is a huge difference between using tax credits and using state-guaranteed *bonds*.

But again, this project isn't about constructing residences, because there is absolutely no obligation for Ilitch to even build a doghouse. And why would he? Ilitch already got what he wanted: a big fat check from the City and the State, which he will use to build a new arena that will grossly inflate the value of his team. The City and State, unlike lenders in previous scenarios, will not see any return from their "investment". All of the revenue goes directly to Olympia Entertainment, who isn't obligated to pay the City or State a single damned dime.

[EL Jimbo]

You're talking about occupancy rates of apartments, as demonstrating that there is "demand" for a subsidized hockey arena. One does not lead to the other.

High occupancy rates for apartments means that there is high demand for apartments at current price points. That's it. No more, no less. It has nothing to do with hockey or Billionaire Welfare Queens.

Again...intentionally obtuse. You want to create this imaginary universe where this development is ONLY about a hockey arena when it is a massive development that has been masterplanned for as many as 2,000 apartments, retail, office, and other portions outside of the arena.

THAT is where the apartment demand and occupancy rates come in. But go ahead, have fun in your alternate reality where that isn't being discussed apparently.

[TennisAndMath]

Again...intentionally obtuse. You want to create this imaginary universe where this development is ONLY about a hockey arena when it is a massive development that has been masterplanned for as many as 2,000 apartments, retail, office, and other portions outside of the arena.

THAT is where the apartment demand and occupancy rates come in. But go ahead, have fun in your alternate reality where that isn't being discussed apparently.

Please detail this demand. One user posted that a 61 unit apartment is full. That's 100 people.

[EL Jimbo]

Please detail this demand. One user posted that a 61 unit apartment is full. That's 100 people.

http://www.freep.com/article/2014012...dtown-Corktown

Be forewarned, this is from a legitimate, accepted news source so you probably won't believe it anyway.

[Spartan]

Please detail this demand. One user posted that a 61 unit apartment is full. That's 100 people.

I'm not a news source, but I can tell you from my searches 1 and 2 years ago that the following buildings were at 100% capacity:
Detroit City Apartments
Millender Center [[Renaissance City)
Fyfe Building
Claridge House
Lofts @ Woodward Place
Lofts of Merchant Row

And these were at least very close:
Kales Building
Broderick Tower

And I can tell you that there are 3 new apartment projects going on right now plus 2 in planning, just in Downtown, to meet demand:
1 - The Ashley [[Milner)
2 - The Albert [[Capitol Park)
3 - Aloft [[David Whitney Building) - only partial rental

In planning:
1 - Statler City Apartments [[Statler Hotel site)
2 - New apartments on top of Book Cadillac garage