Ilitch's Choice: The Eddystone Hotel Lives, Park Avenue Hotel to die

[DetroitBoy]

Guess what's happening in Downtown Detroit right at this very moment, Chief? Tons of old buildings have been/are being rehabbed and filled with tenants. But you can't renovate buildings that don't exist! Compare the number of renovated buildings to the number of brand-new buildings that have been erected on Ilitch-owned scorched-earth lots. It's just not smart to demolish buildings when they're needed to accommodate demand.

Yes, this makes sense. All kinds of old buildings are being renovated, so let's tear another one down so we can have another empty lot. That way, we're certain to have redevelopment I think!



This isn't even about historical significance. It's about being wise. Detroit has spent MILLIONS of dollars over the past several decades demolishing buildings. And for what? Empty lots!

"Hi, I'm Velvet Jones, and this is my new book, "How to Turn $100,000 in Real Estate into $10,000 Cash!'."



Nor should a new Detroit look like Hall Road. I think you had better go to New York, Philadelphia, Chicago--hell, Cleveland--and tell them all how stupid they are for filling old buildings downtown. Because clearly, you know something that everyone else doesn't.

No, apparently you are the one who knows better than everyone else including the people who have been successful enough to have the means to make multi-million dollar investments in the City of Detroit. Stay close to your phone. They could be calling you at any moment to be a consultant. Or maybe not.

[MSUguy]

You're very dramatic but not very convincing. There NEEDS TO BE DEMAND for space in desirable areas in order for there to be INVESTMENT to provide the CORRECT TYPE and AMOUNT of space as the business cycle expands.

The greater downtown is an desirable area. You seem completely clueless as to to amount development going on [[most of through renovated older buildings).

[ghettopalmetto]

No, apparently you are the one who knows better than everyone else including the people who have been successful enough to have the means to make multi-million dollar investments in the City of Detroit. Stay close to your phone. They could be calling you at any moment to be a consultant. Or maybe not.

Hey, I'm just telling you what I've seen, both personally and professionally. If your ideology tells you to believe some kind of irrational dogma, then go ahead and believe whatever you want. Your beliefs don't change the reality on the ground, that being speculative demolition is about as financially stupid a move as there is.

[Gistok]

Remember DYES poster VERIFIABLE... well he was no fan of the Ilitch clan, that's a given. He did put together this now rather 'dated' map of Downtown parcels owned by the Ilitch's.... although it's no longer completely up to date... about 80-90% of these parcels are still owned by Ilitch Holdings.... most are empty lots... now.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...8.k-iriwE9z_IA

This was created before the switch to a Midtown location.

[Dan_the_man]

I'm going to make a quick pivot to make a point [[actually ask a question):

The FBI building on Pennsylvania Ave. in D.C. is a 'brutalist' building which many folks absolutely do not like [[there are similar buildings like HUD, etc. similar style). [[i'll get a link showing the FBI building). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover_Building

Should that building go or stay? D.C. wants it gone. FBI wants to move to the 'burbs presumably that this building does not met current needs [[which have changed greatly because of technological changes, e.g., computers, telecommunications, etc. as we are no longer in a paper based era where the FBI had to store tons of paper).

Should butt ugly architecture be saved?

[[without getting off topic, a lot of housing in S.W. Washington, D.C. during the 1970s had an architectural style which to me was not at all good. Lot of arch. back then wasn't easy on the eyes.).

To answer your question though completely off topic...
It's a 40 year old building. When the buildings downtown were that age, people were "modernizing" them and stripping off a lot of their ornamentation. I think at this point, we cannot appreciate brutalism because it is too recent. We view it as something of the last generation and ugly, but give it another 20 years and people will start to appreciate it for what it is. I can't say that it is one of my favorite styles, but I can see merits in the design, and I also think that it very wasteful to tear down a building that has a lot of life left in it, unless it truly is not functional.

[Dan_the_man]

Hey, I'm just telling you what I've seen, both personally and professionally. If your ideology tells you to believe some kind of irrational dogma, then go ahead and believe whatever you want. Your beliefs don't change the reality on the ground, that being speculative demolition is about as financially stupid a move as there is.

I have a feeling that DetroitBoy is George Jackson just venting his need for demolition now that he isn't in charge of the DEGC...

[Mackinaw]

As to your query, Emu Steve, I agree with Dan. It's still a cool building, and it's not one of those midcentury ones that has sliver-windows. It has big windows. While I wouldn't want it on my street, there is merit and there'd be zero purpose in tearing it down. That would be a waste of resources, which is really what all of this sort of comes down to. It's not a beauty pagent per se, although no question you are wasting a lot more beautiful design and materials when you start going after Victorian and Roaring 20s buildings versus midcentury. Anyway, I definitel give a standing ovation to the recently annouced renovation of the Hammer and Nail building in midtown.

[emu steve]

As to your query, Emu Steve, I agree with Dan. It's still a cool building, and it's not one of those midcentury ones that has sliver-windows. It has big windows. While I wouldn't want it on my street, there is merit and there'd be zero purpose in tearing it down. That would be a waste of resources, which is really what all of this sort of comes down to. It's not a beauty pagent per se, although no question you are wasting a lot more beautiful design and materials when you start going after Victorian and Roaring 20s buildings versus midcentury. Anyway, I definitel give a standing ovation to the recently annouced renovation of the Hammer and Nail building in midtown.

One of the issues in the case of the FBI building [[vs. buildings in Detroit) is functional obsolesce.

The two residential buildings in this thread are not functional obsolete. They are very old and may or may not be salvageable [[that is a debate I have no expertise to offer a good opinion).

BTW, it may surprise some here, but I don't have 'cast in concrete' opinion about the building in question here.

My opinion [[and a buck) will get a copy of a daily Detroit paper. Lol.

IF the two buildings are to become residential there are all kind of zoning issues, e.g., parking [[e.g., do the occupants get parking spaces in the adjacent parking deck?).

[DetroitBoy]

Hey, I'm just telling you what I've seen, both personally and professionally. If your ideology tells you to believe some kind of irrational dogma, then go ahead and believe whatever you want. Your beliefs don't change the reality on the ground, that being speculative demolition is about as financially stupid a move as there is.

I've never heard of economics, business and finance referred to as irrational dogmas. I have never heard of a firm incurring expense for demolition unless it was part of a planned revenue generating redevelopment project or in order to reduce the ongoing expense of owning the building until it can be redeveloped due to a contraction of the business cycle. In other words, firms don't just tear down buildings 'speculatively' because they enjoy having lots of worthless land in downtown Detroit on their books but that is really what it became during the economic crash.

Now that things are expanding, the land is going up in value and the development projects on it will come.

On thing I am sure of is that you and I attended different universities where yours did not require you to take even one economics course.

[rex]

well park ave hotel is depressing as hell. I used to have friends that lived there.

[Mackinaw]

On thing I am sure of is that you and I attended different universities where yours did not require you to take even one economics course.

LOL. Real mature. And funny, your education didn't equip you to notice that Detroit is half-empty, and when I say empty I mean there ARE NO BUILDINGS on the lots, yet you still believe that we need to remove these two buildings or else there will be NO ROOM [[!!!) and we'll encourage sprawl.

I hereby give GhettoPalmetto one giant pat on the back, and testify on the record that I have an economics degree from the best public university on the continent.

I like this game, DetroitBoy!!!

[DetroitBoy]

LOL. Real mature. And funny, your education didn't equip you to notice that Detroit is half-empty, and when I say empty I mean there ARE NO BUILDINGS on the lots, yet you still believe that we need to remove these two buildings or else there will be NO ROOM [[!!!) and we'll encourage sprawl.

I hereby give GhettoPalmetto one giant pat on the back, and testify on the record that I have an economics degree from the best public university on the continent.

I like this game, DetroitBoy!!!

You're the only ones who like to use this site to stroke yourselves and to feel important.
I guess it isn't that great of a school otherwise you'd be working as a consultant to the people you criticize so much without even knowing their business plan.

Public university, huh? That explains a lot.

BTW, they will be ripping down a lot more whether you like it or not.

[Dan_the_man]

I've never heard of economics, business and finance referred to as irrational dogmas. I have never heard of a firm incurring expense for demolition unless it was part of a planned revenue generating redevelopment project or in order to reduce the ongoing expense of owning the building until it can be redeveloped due to a contraction of the business cycle. In other words, firms don't just tear down buildings 'speculatively' because they enjoy having lots of worthless land in downtown Detroit on their books but that is really what it became during the economic crash.

Now that things are expanding, the land is going up in value and the development projects on it will come.

On thing I am sure of is that you and I attended different universities where yours did not require you to take even one economics course.

So the garden that now sits on the site of the Laffayette Building is generating enough money to cover the $1.5 million that it cost to demolish the building? That's one impressive garden!

Things are very different when the buildings are owned by the city or the DEGC and using public money for demolition. It doesn't have to make the same economic sense. If you don't think that Kwame and George Jackson were putting money in the pockets of their friends at the demo companies, than I question whether you even graduated from high school.

[DetroitBoy]

So the garden that now sits on the site of the Laffayette Building is generating enough money to cover the $1.5 million that it cost to demolish the building? That's one impressive garden!

Things are very different when the buildings are owned by the city or the DEGC and using public money for demolition. It doesn't have to make the same economic sense. If you don't think that Kwame and George Jackson were putting money in the pockets of their friends at the demo companies, than I question whether you even graduated from high school.

So now you are going to Kwame and George Jackson? I guess this is just a non stop rant on whatever random topic you think is connected.

Do I dare ask what you think is the larger conspiracy theory working here to take over the City of Detroit ? Should we be worried that aliens will be landing on Hart Plaza next?

[Dan_the_man]

You said there were sound economic reasons for every demolition and I provided you with an example of one that did not have those reasons. That lot would be far more valuable with the building on it that it is without, and it's only been five years.

[MSUguy]

Is it possible the mortgage crisis and the meltdown of the U.S. economy, the bankruptcy and collapse of the US auto industry, the subsequent chaos and fall of the City of Detroit, the nose dive in the real estate market in Metro Detroit and the impact of all of this on the outlook for the State of Michigan or any number of other unprecedented external factors may have impacted Mike Ilitch's business plans for those properties ?

Perhaps his strategy was to cut both fixed and variable costs, cancel investment and batten down the hatches for the foreseeable future. Could this have impacted his performance? This sounds very much like what most businesses did during that period. In addition, many of those businesses are just now willing to start to reinvest because they see the economy strengthening.

Dan Gilbert arrived on the scene many years after Ilitch, when times were starting to improve a bit. He's probably less risk adverse and more aggressive than Ilitch and is jumping in and making things happen. This doesn't mean every other business leader or investor is going to sit on the sidelines going forward. If everything continues to trend in the right direction in the US economy and the State continues to be supportive of the City of Detroit, 2015 could be a year of significant growth for the city.

Mike Ilitch is biggest is owner of vacant properties around the Fox and has owned many of these properties for more two decades. If you're even remotely familiar with area you know there have been many property renovations before and after recession. Other developers could make the economics for renovation work. But Ilitch and Co can't? I don't buy it.

Given the last decade of speculation about locations of anew arena, it's pretty fair to assume they have been keeping these properties vacant until an exact location was secured. It may have made business sense to keep their options open, it also make them a shitty, slumlord neighbor

As to this building specifically the arena project has been in planning at this site for years. They're planning all these other things around it including residential, with the knowledge of the buildings existence, but didn't incorporate into those plans? They could've have done so from day one, but simply decided not to do it.

[Mackinaw]

I'd like to propose a moratorium of quoting and responding to DetroitBoy. I wasn't really familiar with him/her before the thread, but am now aware of their complete troll status. I believe we can keep a decent conversation going despite one of our handful of Dyes jesters jeering in the background.

[emu steve]

Mike Ilitch is biggest is owner of vacant properties around the Fox and has owned many of these properties for more two decades. If you're even remotely familiar with area you know there have been many property renovations before and after recession. Other developers could make the economics for renovation work. But Ilitch and Co can't? I don't buy it.

Given the last decade of speculation about locations of anew arena, it's pretty fair to assume they have been keeping these properties vacant until an exact location was secured. It may have made business sense to keep there options open, it also make them a shitty, slumlord neighbor

As to this building specifically the arena project has been in planning at this site for years. They're planning all these other things around it including residential, with the knowledge of the building existence, but didn't incorporate into those plans? They could've have done so from day one, but simply decided not to do it.

Okay, I'll bite: 'Pick your poison'

1). Eminent domain is away to avoid the problems of site acquisition in cases such as this arena. It speeds up a process which the Ilitches could not pull off [[i.e., acquire all of the land behind the Fox to locate an arena there).

2). Allow the 'free market' real estate process play out until the site assembly is complete. This process can be exceedingly messy [[kind of like making sausage to use this phrase) and resulted in the very problems described in the post to which I'm replying.

Truth be told, site assembly is almost always a messy process which leaves NO ONE HAPPY.

Quite frankly, I assume that the issues here are MINOR, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, despite all of the rancor here.

[DetroitBoy]

Mike Ilitch is biggest is owner of vacant properties around the Fox and has owned many of these properties for more two decades. If you're even remotely familiar with area you know there have been many property renovations before and after recession. Other developers could make the economics for renovation work. But Ilitch and Co can't? I don't buy it.

Given the last decade of speculation about locations of anew arena, it's pretty fair to assume they have been keeping these properties vacant until an exact location was secured. It may have made business sense to keep there options open, it also make them a shitty, slumlord neighbor

As to this building specifically the arena project has been in planning at this site for years. They're planning all these other things around it including residential, with the knowledge of the building existence, but didn't incorporate into those plans? They could've have done so from day one, but simply decided not to do it.

I am sure there has been speculating on land in Detroit. That isn't just going on downtown btw. All I am saying is there have been a lot of unprecedented economic occurrences which have obviously factored into the current state of the sites owned by Ilitch. I think I mentioned I like old buildings myself but I also know rehab doesn't always play in development of new convention and sports arenas. Also, they mentioned the Park doesn't pass on DHS guidelines. If this is that important, I am sure one of you could contact them and inquire. As for corruption with Kwame and buildings being torn down, what can you do about them now? Did anyone complain when all that was happening? He went to jail for what he did. Is this one building going to have that great of an impact on the overall state of downtown?

[ghettopalmetto]

Also, they mentioned the Park doesn't pass on DHS guidelines. If this is that important, I am sure one of you could contact them and inquire.

I've designed a lot of buildings, and the only time I've known "DHS guidelines" [[whatever those might be) to be applicable was in the instance of a federally-owned facility. While Mike Ilitch might be receiving a lot of free public money, the arena is not a federal facility.

Meanwhile, a developer has proposed constructing new apartment buildings across the street from FirstEnergy Stadium in Cleveland. I haven't heard a lick of "DHS guidelines" in that regard--even considering that the proposed site has direct lake access to allow the terrists to make a quick nautical getaway. In other words--the "DHS guidelines" are just bullshit so that Ilitch can use more public money to destroy more of downtown.

It's also worth noting that a developer named Bob Stark has proposed a 650-foot [[mostly) residential tower across the street from Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland. That project has already been presented to the city's Design Review Commission, who oddly had no comments regarding DHS guidelines.

Full disclosure: I'm not personally or professionally involved in any of the above projects.

[MSUguy]

I am sure there has been speculating on land in Detroit. That isn't just going on downtown btw. All I am saying is there have been a lot of unprecedented economic occurrences which have obviously factored into the current state of the sites owned by Ilitch. I think I mentioned I like old buildings myself but I also know rehab doesn't always play in development of new convention and sports arenas. Also, they mentioned the Park doesn't pass on DHS guidelines. If this is that important, I am sure one of you could contact them and inquire. As for corruption with Kwame and buildings being torn down, what can you do about them now? Did anyone complain when all that was happening? He went to jail for what he did. Is this one building going to have that great of an impact on the overall state of downtown?

Economics certainly played a role why the buildings went vacant if the first place. But in the last 15-years I put the blame on their business practices as to why they're still vacant. The demolition of Madison-Lenox Hotel makes a perfect case study in poor decision making by Olympia as to downtown development. Taking a salvageable historic building and demolishing[[illegally) for an Olympia parking lot. The mindset that providing a few more parking spaces for his business in a downtown that doesn't lack for it, is what's most beneficial. As opposed to the opportunity to have more permanent residents. You contrast that to Dan Gilbert whose work clearly values the opposite and the results are clear in the trajectory of downtown over the last few years. Leveling the city for easier event parking is not an recipe for success.

It may be just one building, but you can't get a building of like this back. Historic buildings of this size/quality is part of what gives character to big cities. To waste an opportunity to save it when it makes so much sense is wrong.

http://historicdetroit.org/building/...n-lenox-hotel/

[masterblaster]

I've never heard of economics, business and finance referred to as irrational dogmas. I have never heard of a firm incurring expense for demolition unless it was part of a planned revenue generating redevelopment project or in order to reduce the ongoing expense of owning the building until it can be redeveloped due to a contraction of the business cycle

But Ilitch didn't incur the cost of demolition. In the case of the Adams Theater/Fine Arts Building, he secured public funds to demolition the theater and five other buildings he owned, per the following from the "historicdetroit.org" website:

"Ilitch, a man worth an estimated $1.6 billion in 2008 by Forbes Magazine, had the city's Downtown Development Authority give him $2.5 million in state-funded grants to tear down six of his rundown buildings: the Chin Tiki, the Elizabeth Street Lofts, the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine, the 135 Elizabeth parking garage — and the Adams and Fine Arts Building. The $2.5 million was money left over from funding for cleaning up the city ahead of the 2006 Super Bowl that was hosted at Ford Field."

According to the website, he purchased the theater in 1992, when the theater had recently been cleaned up by Preservation Wayne after it had closed in 1988. The building was demolished in 2009, so he had 17 years to redevelop the building.

Ironically, the website states that in 1995, he told the FREEP that he planned to renovated the Adams Theatre along with the GAR building:

"Tigers spokesman Tom Shields told the Free Press in November 1995 that Ilitch would renovate the Adams and the Grand Army of the Republic Building. "The Ilitches plan to fully develop their properties" near the stadium, Shields told the paper. "They certainly hope everybody else does the same.” The developments of those structures, as well as the Ilitch-owned United Artists Theatre, the Chin Tiki, the Detroit Life Building, Moose Lodge, Fine Arts Building and three other structures in the area, have never happened."

http://www.historicdetroit.org/building/adams-theatre/

[LeannaM]

It's a shame both of the buildings can't or won't be saved.


Do either have historical status so they have to go through a review process?

[emu steve]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opi...camp/23556221/

Tigers doing a 40M renovation to their stadium in Lakeland.

They also spent some big bucks on the new scoreboard not long ago.

Ilitch spends money on projects he deems useful.

[401don]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opi...camp/23556221/

Tigers doing a 40M renovation to their stadium in Lakeland.

They also spent some big bucks on the new scoreboard not long ago.

Ilitch spends money on projects he deems useful.

Guess again. Lakeland is spending the money by hiking tourist taxes. In other words, Michigan taxpayers are footing the bill. Sound familiar?