Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[casscorridor]

I'd prefer to see the stadium built near another neighborhood and away from downtown, then maybe that neighborhood would see more investment. Just as an example, maybe somewhere near Mexicantown/Southwest[[disclaimer: I have no idea if there's any viable space in that area). It is possible that some of the locals would attend since soccer is popular in Mexico, plus you're not far from some of the millenials moving into the Corktown area that would buy tickets also. And it's close to the bridge so people from Windsor may shoot over there too.

Yeah what is the obsession with having everything Downtown? The stadium could still be in a central area but outside Downtown [[like Mexicantown).

[Detroitdave]

the stadium would never get build on mound. MLS stipulated that they want the stadium downtown only. that was a HUGE reason they were so excited to come here. if jail goes up on that site the only way MLS comes to detroit is the stadium being built either on the riverfront nearby or somewhere in midtown. MAYYYBE new center at the furthest out

Just to be clear, I am pro Gratiot for the stadium and I don't believe for one minute they would ever build out on mound.
I was just being facetious

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Yeah what is the obsession with having everything Downtown? .

I think the selling point for putting this project downtown is multi-fold, at least on the part of Gilbert, who along with Gores would be investing a large chunk of change. It would put lots people in close proximity to his casino/hotel, and a bevy of other properties that he owns. Also, having it downtown makes it much more likely to be used as a venue for concerts and other events besides soccer. Also if some private businesses were located on Fail Jail site [[and the site of the surrounding properties Gilbert and Gores would like), they would be put back on the property tax rolls. Obviously, jails and courts pay no property taxes.

The other selling point, too, for the Fail Jail site is that IT WOULD RELOCATE FAIL JAIL outta downtown.

[emu steve]

I think the selling point for putting this project downtown is multi-fold, at least on the part of Gilbert, who along with Gores would be investing a large chunk of change. It would put lots people in close proximity to his casino/hotel, and a bevy of other properties that he owns. Also, having it downtown makes it much more likely to be used as a venue for concerts and other events besides soccer. Also if some private businesses were located on Fail Jail site [[and the site of the surrounding properties Gilbert and Gores would like), they would be put back on the property tax rolls. Obviously, jails and courts pay no property taxes.

The other selling point, too, for the Fail Jail site is that IT WOULD RELOCATE FAIL JAIL outta downtown.

Completely agree with you.

This site has maximal value to only ONE person and that is Dan Gilbert [[and his business partner, Tom Gores).

And NO other site has maximal value to Gilbert.

And I do agree with Dan Gilbert that he doesn't want all of the criminal justice facilities near where he has his business interest.

I have this thing about criminal justice facilities, warehouses, data centers, etc. etc. namely they should not be in the 'high rent district.'

I say find another location for the criminal justice facilities. Let the downtown develop to the best of its abilities to grow the area and increase the tax rolls.

I learned watching downtown D.C. grow in the 80s, 90s, 00s, etc. and as a result the ENTIRE city benefited. Whenever tax revenues increase the city has the money to help all.

[Gistok]

First of all.... I agree that jails and courts pay no property values... but in Detroit neither do major league sports facilities... which are often owned by either the city or a development authority to avoid the city's burdensome tax rates.

Second... I see nothing in all of these slick presentations about the Gratiot site to generate foot traffic... at least no more than Ford Field and Comerica Park do. Besides the 31 home soccer games... what will draw all the foot traffic into that area? Concerts, tractor pulls and other such events? We already have 2 large venues [[with a 3rd on the way) that with 20-70 thousand seats can handle 10 times the number of non sports events that they currently have. All that a MSL soccer field will do is further divvy up the existing pie.

Third... what will generate foot traffic to this location on non-game days? Big towers and a podium full of restaurants and shops aren't going to be a draw. Doesn't do the Renaissance Center a lot of good...

Fourth... the Juvenile Justice Center just north of Greektown parking structure/hotel... was a $36 million construction just a number of years back. The county is in enough financial trouble with just the jail alone. Adding the cost of additional new buildings such as a new Juvenile Justice Center, a new courthouse, a new jail... is going to burden the county with more than they can afford. The amount that Gilbert/Gores will be willing to cough up for the properties will only cover a fraction of the cost to replace these facilities.

Where are all the people supposed to come from, to make this area, as well as the new Arena district, and the expanded Fox/Columbia St. district and others, more vibrant??

[casscorridor]

I think the selling point for putting this project downtown is multi-fold, at least on the part of Gilbert, who along with Gores would be investing a large chunk of change. It would put lots people in close proximity to his casino/hotel, and a bevy of other properties that he owns. Also, having it downtown makes it much more likely to be used as a venue for concerts and other events besides soccer. Also if some private businesses were located on Fail Jail site [[and the site of the surrounding properties Gilbert and Gores would like), they would be put back on the property tax rolls. Obviously, jails and courts pay no property taxes.

The other selling point, too, for the Fail Jail site is that IT WOULD RELOCATE FAIL JAIL outta downtown.

I understand this completely, from Gliberts point of view, of course. I am more speaking to why there is so much obsession over the square mile Downtown in general, when central Detroit can be seen as being much larger.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

First of all.... I agree that jails and courts pay no property values... but in Detroit neither do major league sports facilities... which are often owned by either the city or a development authority to avoid the city's burdensome tax rates.

I don't think it has been stated yet, one way or another, if this project [[should it happen) would be owned by the taxpayers or not. One of the main reasons to have a govt entity own such a facility is to more easily use eminent domain to acquire the land. Since the county would be selling or swapping the land for either money or facilities elsewhere, this need would not exist in this situation. Additionally, the other buildings constructed onsite [[apartment, hotel & office towers) would be full-on taxpayers.

Second... I see nothing in all of these slick presentations about the Gratiot site to generate foot traffic... at least no more than Ford Field and Comerica Park do. Besides the 31 home soccer games... what will draw all the foot traffic into that area? Concerts, tractor pulls and other such events? We already have 2 large venues [[with a 3rd on the way) that with 20-70 thousand seats can handle 10 times the number of non sports events that they currently have. All that a MSL soccer field will do is further divvy up the existing pie?
Third... what will generate foot traffic to this location on non-game days? Big towers and a podium full of restaurants and shops aren't going to be a draw. Doesn't do the Renaissance Center a lot of good...

A few points here in response. Besides MLS home games, a stadium would have multiple other uses. It will be only one of two outdoor stadia in Detroit and be much more conducive to concerts or other big gatherings than Comerica Park. On that note, CP is booked more frequently for baseball, anyway. It would also be a natural home to high school & college soccer tournaments, too. With Gores's involvement, I think an annual outdoor Pistons game could be fun. And be a home for any future pro or semi pro rugby or lacrosse, and exhibition matches of the same. In the winter, I would [[if I owned it) build an outdoor full size hockey rink, and allow school & rec league teams play on it December through February. Lastly, beyond the stadium, there would be the hotel, apartments and an office building that will generate some foot traffic. I'm not denying that the stadium itself will not be in use a majority of days, but I think it could be used enough to alter & improve business for surrounding bars, restaurants, stores & hotels.

Fourth... the Juvenile Justice Center just north of Greektown parking structure/hotel... was a $36 million construction just a number of years back. The county is in enough financial trouble with just the jail alone. Adding the cost of additional new buildings such as a new Juvenile Justice Center, a new courthouse, a new jail... is going to burden the county with more than they can afford. The amount that Gilbert/Gores will be willing to cough up for the properties will only cover a fraction of the cost to replace these facilities.

I have said in previous posts on this topic that the proposal, if adopted should be taxpayer neutral. If Gilbert & Gores won't pay enough money [[or do the building for the County) to cover the relocation for all the associated facilities, the county should say no. The only money the taxpayers should have to commit should be the same amount of money they would spend if they were finishing the project at Fail Jail site. All the rest needs to come from the developers.

Where are all the people supposed to come from, to make this area, as well as the new Arena district, and the expanded Fox/Columbia St. district and others, more vibrant??

I'm not worried at all by this. Downtown and central Detroit are already growing at a rapid clip. Before I moved back, I would visit and walk down the streets of downtown in broad daylight. I would pass empty buildings & storefronts, and hardly see a human being at all. No longer, thank God. Lots of people are moving here, visiting here, and working. And the more that do, the greater the pull for even more.

[Hypestyles]

now that the jail site isn't an option anymore, where else can a soccer stadium go in the city?

[Bham1982]

now that the jail site isn't an option anymore, where else can a soccer stadium go in the city?

Nowhere. There's absolutely no room left in the city; it's all been redeveloped already. The boom has exceeded all expectations.

I guess the taxpayers will have to be relieved of their future soccer field obligations. Poor taxpayers will have to support less important priorities like schools, public health and safety instead.

[MSUguy]

now that the jail site isn't an option anymore, where else can a soccer stadium go in the city?

It's still an option Crains and other articles said they have unti early fall after they get bids in from the RFP to reach a deal.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I think fail jail is all the players' preferred site for a soccer stadium, including county officials. They'd get more & better space [[in addition to the new jail, they'd also get new court & administrative space). It also puts more property on the county's tax rolls, erases the eyesore from downtown, and allows a cool new facility & sports franchise to rise downtown. If the money can be made to work for the the county, there is no downside. But, as I noted above, they need to get their ducks in a row should a deal not emerge. Until active construction picks up again at the jail site [[and maybe not even then), I think they'd agree to a move if the developers present them with a viable alternative. I think Gilbert & Gores will do that.

[emu steve]

Yeah what is the obsession with having everything Downtown? The stadium could still be in a central area but outside Downtown [[like Mexicantown).

I can think of a lot of advantages:

Leverage parking, eateries, transportation assets, etc.

The sports and entertainment area has plenty of parking for events, eateries, access to freeways and QLine, etc.

Hopefully a soccer match would draw 20 - 25K which means all of the same issues as the arena, e.g., parking, places to eat, access to freeways/public transportation, etc.

What makes the sports and entertainment zone so neat is that those parking garages can be used for the Tigers, Lions, Wings, Pistons [[okay, let's not get ahead of ourselves), soccer team, etc.

What will work for the Wings would work for the soccer team [[even though they would be on different sides of Woodward).

A new parking garage behind the church could be used for events at Comerica, the arena, Ford Field, and a soccer stadium.

[Mackinaw]

And I do agree with Dan Gilbert that he doesn't want all of the criminal justice facilities near where he has his business interest.

I have this thing about criminal justice facilities, warehouses, data centers, etc. etc. namely they should not be in the 'high rent district.'

I say find another location for the criminal justice facilities. Let the downtown develop to the best of its abilities to grow the area and increase the tax rolls.

This is so wrong. Now, it may be that such facilities might take up too much space and may be, as east downtown's are, too wide and not tall enough, but the idea that a downtown should be rid of such facilities is bogus. You need not remove them to generate vitality [[go stand on the corner of Boerum and Atlantic in downtown Brooklyn, as but one example-- there is a ton of residential and retail construction and rehabs happening in the shadow of a JAIL...or check out Centre Street in Manhattan, which leads you right into bustling Chinatown), and frankly, downtown-- as a center of government-- OUGHT TO be the location for such facilities. Remember, this is where trials occur. This is where jurors go and where alleged criminals are arraigned. This should not-- and really, cannot, especially in a city where thousands upon thousands rely on transit-- be in a remote area. That is a due process concern. Also, you'd be taking jobs-- solid paying government jobs and lots of attorneys-- out of downtown with your measure. Again, not smart.

Consolidate these facilities and yes, perhaps move the jail or part of the jail out of downtown, but definitely do not remove the courts and other judicial infrastructure.

I am in favor of cancelling FJ and building mixed use [[including soccer) there, and wouldn't mind seeing the juvenile center down near Greektown re-done and made taller and less space intensive, but there is zero justification for removing FMHOJ.

[southen]

The Federal building on the west side of downtown is surrounded by a sea of parking and the Public Safety HQ is over there as well. Since that part of downtown seems destined to always be blocked off due to security, why not take advantage of those lots and building parking, as well as a new justice complex with a jail. Build it up and make the area dense and maybe you will see some ancillary development fill in to service all of the people who utilize the buildings. Hell, the McNamara building already looks like it could be a jail in disguise, it might not be a bad solution and im sure the county could work something out for the land with the Feds.

[emu steve]

This is so wrong. Now, it may be that such facilities might take up too much space and may be, as east downtown's are, too wide and not tall enough, but the idea that a downtown should be rid of such facilities is bogus. You need not remove them to generate vitality [[go stand on the corner of Boerum and Atlantic in downtown Brooklyn, as but one example-- there is a ton of residential and retail construction and rehabs happening in the shadow of a JAIL...or check out Centre Street in Manhattan, which leads you right into bustling Chinatown), and frankly, downtown-- as a center of government-- OUGHT TO be the location for such facilities. Remember, this is where trials occur. This is where jurors go and where alleged criminals are arraigned. This should not-- and really, cannot, especially in a city where thousands upon thousands rely on transit-- be in a remote area. That is a due process concern. Also, you'd be taking jobs-- solid paying government jobs and lots of attorneys-- out of downtown with your measure. Again, not smart.

Consolidate these facilities and yes, perhaps move the jail or part of the jail out of downtown, but definitely do not remove the courts and other judicial infrastructure.

I am in favor of cancelling FJ and building mixed use [[including soccer) there, and wouldn't mind seeing the juvenile center down near Greektown re-done and made taller and less space intensive, but there is zero justification for removing FMHOJ.

Okay, let me draw an analogy...

The VA runs medical centers across the country.

I believe the Ford family originally gave dedicated land along the Southfield Freeway in Allen Park for such a purpose.

In more recent years the VA built a new MORE CENTRALLY located medical center in the medical center area on John R.

And my point is: A VAMC or a jail or court building should be in a central location, easily accessible by public transportation, automobile, etc. etc. YET it does not need to be downtown in the CBD.

Is there space in the New Center area? Is there space near the medical center?

There are definite requirements for criminal justice buildings which should preclude them from being placed in some obscure, hard to get to area, etc. but Detroit has freeways, Woodward Ave, etc. which make some locations near Woodward Ave. a suitable location.

[Hypestyles]

Any DYesers going to the Detroit FC game this Friday? Besides the game, what are the cool hangout spots in Hamtramck?

[Mackinaw]

EMUSteve, bottom line is this: at the end of the day, half of downtown is still surface parking which is developable. There is zero justification to move the entire judicial infrastructure out of downtown, as it is not in the way of anything, and other cities that are essentially 100% developed prove that such facilities do not inhibit anything.

Under your logic you'd just be burdening New Center or Midtown or some other place with this sort of 'low rent' stuff, even though those places are more residential and really ought not have all of the demand for parking and such that comes with courts. It's also wasteful for this county to have to tear down what it has and build new on a blank canvas.

To the extent Gilbert shares your logic he should be chided for it. He knows better and he is able to craft a development which succeeds even if there is a court or a jail down the street.

[emu steve]

EMUSteve, bottom line is this: at the end of the day, half of downtown is still surface parking which is developable. There is zero justification to move the entire judicial infrastructure out of downtown, as it is not in the way of anything, and other cities that are essentially 100% developed prove that such facilities do not inhibit anything.

Under your logic you'd just be burdening New Center or Midtown or some other place with this sort of 'low rent' stuff, even though those places are more residential and really ought not have all of the demand for parking and such that comes with courts. It's also wasteful for this county to have to tear down what it has and build new on a blank canvas.

To the extent Gilbert shares your logic he should be chided for it. He knows better and he is able to craft a development which succeeds even if there is a court or a jail down the street.

I like this post of yours:

"The Federal building on the west side of downtown is surrounded by a sea of parking and the Public Safety HQ is over there as well. Since that part of downtown seems destined to always be blocked off due to security, why not take advantage of those lots and building parking, as well as a new justice complex with a jail. Build it up and make the area dense and maybe you will see some ancillary development fill in to service all of the people who utilize the buildings. Hell, the McNamara building already looks like it could be a jail in disguise, it might not be a bad solution and im sure the county could work something out for the land with the Feds."

[davejonas]

People need to relax and let this play out. I've heard from some trusted sources the soccer stadium will be built and the only issue left is choosing a new jail site. Expect an announcement by September.

Gilbert has invested too much money in the area and will not allow a jail to be built on his doorstep.

[eastland]

Do the math. A new jail is probably $300 million; a new courthouse is probably $125 million and a new youth home $50-$60 million. So the Gilbert/Gores team would need to come up with almost a half a billion dollars just to relocate the criminal justice complex. And while the current site doesn't generate any general fund tax revenue, neither will a new soccer stadium since the site is in the DDA. So that means residents living at Six Mile and Chalmers and other neighborhoods like it won't get squat out of a soccer stadium.

[TTime]

During the MLS All Star Game Don Garber was just asked about expansion and he mentioned 4 new teams by city and then said it was a competition involving 12 cities battling it out for the last 4 spots with no mention of Detroit.

[ekleezy]

During the MLS All Star Game Don Garber was just asked about expansion and he mentioned 4 new teams by city and then said it was a competition involving 12 cities battling it out for the last 4 spots with no mention of Detroit.

Did he say what year those four teams are being added? Gilbert and Gores originally said they were hoping for 2020, so maybe those four teams are before then?

[bust]

Actually, Garber mentioned 3 new teams by city: Atlanta, LA, and Miami. As to the "probably a dozen" cities in contention for an additional 4 expansion spots, he didn't mention Detroit, nor did he mention any other city. You can watch the video here:

http://www.espnfc.com/major-league-s...n-video-replay

But back in April he ranked Detroit as top priority:

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016...nwsl-equal-pay

It seems whether Detroit gets a team depends mostly on whether a stadium is built [[and not necessarily at any specific site). Nothing indicates that has changed.

A few here seem to relish sharing bad news, but in this case there isn't any.

[TTime]

Actually, Garber mentioned 3 new teams by city: Atlanta, LA, and Miami. As to the "probably a dozen" cities in contention for an additional 4 expansion spots, he didn't mention Detroit, nor did he mention any other city. You can watch the video here:

http://www.espnfc.com/major-league-s...n-video-replay

But back in April he ranked Detroit as top priority:

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016...nwsl-equal-pay

It seems whether Detroit gets a team depends mostly on whether a stadium is built [[and not necessarily at any specific site). Nothing indicates that has changed.

A few here seem to relish sharing bad news, but in this case there isn't any.

Who said anything about bad news? That was simply an update of what I saw and heard during the game. He didn't say Detroit wasn't getting a team so quit looking for negativity where there was none.

[Downriviera]

It's very interesting that Dan Duggan is looking to base this new team in downtown Detroit. From the Crain's article:



Detroit City FC and its ownership have made huge progress in developing the kind of fan support and soccer culture that attracts MLS interest. And they've done it in downtown. They've build a good foundation and created some real soccer brand equity. But, there's not a huge overlap between Detroit City and Michigan Bucks fan bases. Does Mr. Duggan work collaboratively with Detroit City FC, buy them out, run them out of town, or what? Curious. It's doubtful that both a 3d Division and a 4th Division team can successfully coexist downtown.

I think many fans will still enjoy the ambiance of the lower division teams. The Jr Wings packed the Joe. Sure many of the tix were giveaways but fans still came there and spent money to park, eat and drink. Plymouth Whalers did well as did the Detroit Vipers. In fact, the MLS team may spark an interest in the lower level teams. I will attend both MLS and Detroit FC if given the opportunity.