Gilbert to widen 375 off-ramp

[Huggybear]

This is another example of dogma and ideology trumping common sense.

I-375 is an outdated, obsolete, poorly-planned, terrible piece of infrastructure. It's sole purpose is to provide easy access to the tunnel, at the expense of accessibility to downtown, the riverfront, and the near east side. I-375 needs to be completely reconfigured to rectify these shortcomings, and that will likely happen at some point in the next 5-10 years.

Physician, heal thyself. Your statement is dogmatic, ideological and demonstrably incorrect on just about every count.

First, I-375 had nothing to do with the tunnel. It was designed to complete a symmetrical downtown loop. Had it been intended to serve the tunnel, it would not require a half-mile U-turn to reach the tunnel. Next, the access to downtown is a canard, since it exits every quarter mile into downtown [[Madison, Lafayette, Larned, Jefferson [[via Congress) and Jefferson itself), Third, there was no east-side destination at the time it was built - or even now [[you would have cut over at I-94 if anything). But the statement that I-375 cuts off access to the east side is false because it dumps smoothly into eastbound Jefferson. It's also false because you can go east on Lafayette or Larned from I-375 - and there are no other through streets anyway.

If "cutting off access" to the east side means reducing pedestrian access from BCBS, a casino, a jail, and a sports complex into a purely residential neighborhood that consumers of the above use as a parking lot/dumping ground [[you should see what it's like on game days), then it should make it easier for you to understand why the people of Lafayette Park are very opposed to surfacing the road. That, and the constant cut-throughs that are going to get worse when commuters frustrated with traffic aren't locked into the I-375 roadbed.

No one disagrees that you wouldn't built I-375 today. But the ideologue chorus in the I-375 debate makes a logical leap when it argues that just because something doesn't mesh with current thinking, it should be ripped out at tremendous expense and inconvenience to every actual stakeholder. There is no significant redevelopable land in any MDOT proposal, there is no massive contingent of Lafayette or Larned bikers that is actually being bottlenecked, and there is no natural affinity between the land on either side of the road, especially as fully developed over 40+ years. I would argue that to be compelling on surfacing I-375, you need to make a very strong economic case. Had this been the planning stages way back when, much less so.

HB

[Bham1982]

Dan Gilbert's a billionaire, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

I want to paint Dan Gilbert as arrogant, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

I'm going to suggest that there's something wrong with capitalism, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Dan Gilbert tore down a historic [[thanks for not saying "an historic", that drives me nuts) building 400 miles from here, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Dan Gilbert made a casino in Ohio, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

You're not following this conversation very well, are you?

No one wrote [[or even hinted at) any of these things.

[Scottathew]

You're not following this conversation very well, are you?

No one wrote [[or even hinted at) any of these things.

I was mocking another post, line for line, my friend.

[Spartan]

You must get home different times then I am. I deal with the traffic back-ups daily, and especially on weekends. You can't go to 375 and Larned because of the overflow from the back-up @ 375 and Lafeyette. It's not "pretty much free and clear", and even going all the way to Jefferson is a royal PITA because of the overflow. I know where the "alternate routes are", I don't want to go miles out of my way to get to an "alternate route". A million to alleviate congestion, accidents, and injuries? Well worth it. That expansion should have been put in way before 2 stadiums and a casino were built.

It's possible we have different definitions of congestion. When you live in/near a downtown city, it's expected that you will experience traffic at peak times and during events. Sure, the Lafayette exit can get backed up at times, but so do Monroe, Grand River, Jefferson, Mack, etc. Exits at State St, Telegraph, Southfield, etc. get backed up on 94 consistently as well. The same can be said for much of north 75 in Madison Heights and Troy. We can't just go around expanding infrastructure to handle the absolute peaks everywhere. It's inefficient and a waste. Roads aren't built to flow perfectly at all times, and never should be. If you go to any city in the world, there will be points where traffic is heavy. When you live in those areas, you understand the alternate routes available that will save you time and frustration. Sure, it might take you 2-3 minutes extra to get home that day, but it's better than sitting in 20 minutes of traffic instead. Detroit has a history of "oh no, there's too many cars, expand the highway!" syndrome. Go ask people that live in LA, Chicago, or Atlanta if Detroit roads need to be expanded and they'll laugh at you.

[ghettopalmetto]

Go ask people that live in LA, Chicago, or Atlanta if Detroit roads need to be expanded and they'll laugh at you.

Better still, ask if road widening has ever "solved" their traffic congestion.

[Bham1982]

Go ask people that live in LA, Chicago, or Atlanta if Detroit roads need to be expanded and they'll laugh at you.

Well that confirms it. An idiot on the street at the Waffle House in GA trumps actual traffic data.

[Honky Tonk]

Better still, ask if road widening has ever "solved" their traffic congestion.

Your posts make less sense as the thread progresses, ever notice that?

[mtburb]

Go ask people that live in LA if Detroit roads need to be expanded and they'll laugh at you.

Guess what? We now know someone, in a city that's the second-largest in the whole country where the suburbs [[and especially the main roads) are very similar [[but still different) to our own postwar suburbs, but those suburbs have twice as many billboards as Detroit proper, have the hills of Pittsburgh and the trees and climate of Florida, have a couple dozen Southfields and Troys in the mix, have Southfield-ized and Troy-ized Ann Arbors and Birminghams, have their versions of Macomb Township in Orange County and have pretty much every freeway that is as wide as I-96 on the west side [[but with no local-express separation), but they still don't have a baseball stadium placed directly in the downtown area and doesn't even have an NFL team, who knows a lot about OUR own traffic.

[Spartan]

Well that confirms it. An idiot on the street at the Waffle House in GA trumps actual traffic data.

Traffic data consistently shows that 375 is significantly underutilized, and that widening roads rarely relieves congestion.

[Scottathew]

I think one of the big issues here is that some people want mass transit in metro Detroit so badly that they're against any road improvements that are solely geared at vehicle capacity.

Then there's a category of people that want to see light rail, BRT, more buses, and any other effective tool to move people where they want to go, including road improvements designed for vehicle capacity. That's the category I fall into.

Then there's a third category of people that hate mass transit because it helps more easily move the undesirable people [[aka not middle class white) from the places they live to the places where the middle and upper class folks live. These people would love to see D-DOT and SMART die.


I think this board is made up of a lot of folks from the first two categories, and I've rarely seen folks from the third.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think one of the big issues here is that some people want mass transit in metro Detroit so badly that they're against any road improvements that are solely geared at vehicle capacity.

Then there's a category of people that want to see light rail, BRT, more buses, and any other effective tool to move people where they want to go, including road improvements designed for vehicle capacity. That's the category I fall into.

What is never ever discussed on these forums, though, is how an excess of roadway capacity, parking, and general ease of driving directly undermine investments made in transit. You can't build a city for cars, and then expect people to utilize transit [[no matter how gold-plated it may be). Things don't happen just because one wills it so. This is where objective, factual analyses help.

Detroit has an excess of lane-miles on its roadway network. Vehicle Miles Traveled have decreased. These two factors suggest that additional pavement in any form is a waste of money.

[Scottathew]

What is never ever discussed on these forums, though, is how an excess of roadway capacity, parking, and general ease of driving directly undermine investments made in transit. You can't build a city for cars, and then expect people to utilize transit [[no matter how gold-plated it may be). Things don't happen just because one wills it so. This is where objective, factual analyses help.

Detroit has an excess of lane-miles on its roadway network. Vehicle Miles Traveled have decreased. These two factors suggest that additional pavement in any form is a waste of money.

This is where I think instead of making road options worse, we need to make mass transit options better. That needs to start with investment in the regional transit authority that runs lots of buses on time, predictably, and reliably.

This is a pie-in-the sky project, but I'd love to see a subway line going up Woodward that turns into elevated rail north of 7-Mile. It'd like to see that elevated line continue all the way to Pontiac where perhaps it would finish as a subway.

In that magically, but very expensive scenario, people who live and work close to the line would find the non-grade rail to be faster than cars. No stop lights and traffic to contend with. If we could just roll the dice on an all-in investment like that it would pave the way for similar projects on Gratiot and Michigan.

But closer to reality, if we can implement light rail and BRT and give them green lights using technology, it would make them start to approach the time-efficiency of a car.

[ABetterDetroit]

It's not that this project is a colossal expansion of the freeway system. It's that:

1) It continues the wrong-headed, outdated mindset that every possible "destination" needs its own freeway ramp. Because God forbid people have to use surface streets or walk a whole block.

2) It's an expansion of the roadway network at a time when Vehicle Miles Traveled is *decreasing*.

3) Billionaires in Detroit will get whatever they want, no matter how dumb, and no matter what the people need. Fascism at its finest.

This one is pretty funny, making a freeway exit ramp safer is now "fascism". Next we will be invading Windsor to rebuild their roads...

[DetroitPlanner]

In summary:

Private money for a train on a bus route: Yes!
Private money to improve access to parking: NO!

[Gpwrangler]

...

I think this board is made up of a lot of folks from the first two categories, and I've rarely seen folks from the third.

Only 3 categories of people? And the ones who don't favor mass transit are for the reasons above?
Sounds like bullshit to me.

How about we simply fix the roads we all use, so those of us who drive do not destroy our vehicles? If you have a ton of money left over you can fund more light rail and offer car drivers a cash subsidy to leave our cars at home? I mean, everyone on here is throwing my tax money around. Can I please keep some?

Let's get the damn off ramp built and move on. Want expensive mass transit that can have green light priority while the roads suffer and drivers pay for it? Find an investor willing to fund it.

I'm guessing a few may be in this "fourth" category, and there may be yet others.

[Cliffy]

This one is pretty funny, making a freeway exit ramp safer is now "fascism". Next we will be invading Windsor to rebuild their roads...

The best part is somehow adding lanes to a road won't help traffic. I guess Ghettosuperstar over there can explain to me how fucked up Southfield road is every afternoon because they reduced lanes to 2 lanes in each direction instead of 3 to repair the intersection. All the roads should be 1 lane in each direction because adding lanes doesn't help traffic LOL.

[Spartan]

The best part is somehow adding lanes to a road won't help traffic. I guess Ghettosuperstar over there can explain to me how fucked up Southfield road is every afternoon because they reduced lanes to 2 lanes in each direction instead of 3 to repair the intersection. All the roads should be 1 lane in each direction because adding lanes doesn't help traffic LOL.

Actually, most studies show that adding lanes rarely decreases traffic. If they add 50% more road space to the exit, 50% more people will use that exit. Obviously, it is somewhat situational, but there is no conclusive evidence that adding lanes reduces traffic flow in any way.

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-tr...nduced-demand/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2012...ic-congestion/

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/05/3...e-in-futility/

[Hermod]

Actually, most studies show that adding lanes rarely decreases traffic. If they add 50% more road space to the exit, 50% more people will use that exit. Obviously, it is somewhat situational, but there is no conclusive evidence that adding lanes reduces traffic flow in any way.

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-tr...nduced-demand/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2012...ic-congestion/

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/05/3...e-in-futility/

I don't know, this is anecdotal and based onluy on my own experience. I-95 narrowed from three lanes in each direction to two lanes a little south of Washington. I had to drive from Petersburg to the Washington area quite a lot [[Ft Lee to Ft Belvoir or another NOVA military destination). It was a royal PITA. They widened the road to three lanes in each direction from
Dale City south to Petersburg. It was still a PITA to drive, but was a lot more bearable.

[Spartan]

I don't know, this is anecdotal and based onluy on my own experience. I-95 narrowed from three lanes in each direction to two lanes a little south of Washington. I had to drive from Petersburg to the Washington area quite a lot [[Ft Lee to Ft Belvoir or another NOVA military destination). It was a royal PITA. They widened the road to three lanes in each direction from
Dale City south to Petersburg. It was still a PITA to drive, but was a lot more bearable.

Of course, there will be some variance and every situation is different. I don't know about the route you're referencing, but one factor is the availability of alternative routes. Obviously, if you're talking about a place that only has one or two options and a fairly steady traffic flow, adding extra lanes may indeed reduce traffic. A place like a downtown city where there are hundreds of roads and numerous exits that lead to the same place, you're likely to see much less variance. If you're legitimately seeing more people entering downtown to a breakpoint [[where the infrastructure is legitimately not built to handle it), then adding infrastructure will help. However, as has been mentioned, miles driven in the area is generally down, and Detroit surely does not lack roads. When M-1 rolls around, we'll see even less auto traffic.

It's quite possible that this will be a net-positive for the public, but I think the chances skew toward neutral at best. The main benefactor would likely be Gilbert/Greektown. Now, since they're paying for it and that area likely will need to be rebuilt anyway, I don't have a huge beef with it, but I do think it seems a bit short-sighted. One thing I do worry about is that it gives Gilbert & co. a reason to oppose "boulevarding" 375, which I am in favor of.

[erikd]

Physician, heal thyself. Your statement is dogmatic, ideological and demonstrably incorrect on just about every count.

First, I-375 had nothing to do with the tunnel. It was designed to complete a symmetrical downtown loop. Had it been intended to serve the tunnel, it would not require a half-mile U-turn to reach the tunnel. Next, the access to downtown is a canard, since it exits every quarter mile into downtown [[Madison, Lafayette, Larned, Jefferson [[via Congress) and Jefferson itself), Third, there was no east-side destination at the time it was built - or even now [[you would have cut over at I-94 if anything). But the statement that I-375 cuts off access to the east side is false because it dumps smoothly into eastbound Jefferson. It's also false because you can go east on Lafayette or Larned from I-375 - and there are no other through streets anyway.

If "cutting off access" to the east side means reducing pedestrian access from BCBS, a casino, a jail, and a sports complex into a purely residential neighborhood that consumers of the above use as a parking lot/dumping ground [[you should see what it's like on game days), then it should make it easier for you to understand why the people of Lafayette Park are very opposed to surfacing the road. That, and the constant cut-throughs that are going to get worse when commuters frustrated with traffic aren't locked into the I-375 roadbed.

No one disagrees that you wouldn't built I-375 today. But the ideologue chorus in the I-375 debate makes a logical leap when it argues that just because something doesn't mesh with current thinking, it should be ripped out at tremendous expense and inconvenience to every actual stakeholder. There is no significant redevelopable land in any MDOT proposal, there is no massive contingent of Lafayette or Larned bikers that is actually being bottlenecked, and there is no natural affinity between the land on either side of the road, especially as fully developed over 40+ years. I would argue that to be compelling on surfacing I-375, you need to make a very strong economic case. Had this been the planning stages way back when, much less so.

HB

It absolutely cuts off access to downtown and the near eastside. The fact that it doesn't have access to Gratiot is perfect example of this. Gratiot is the main east/west trunkline from the eastside to downtown, and the freeway just blows past it. The Gratiot exit leads you all the way past eastern market, and requires you to backtrack to go to the market or downtown. The Madison exit requires you to go down a few blocks, turn left, then turn onto Gratiot. This is a very poor way for the freeway to interface with the main east-west trunkline. The bottleneck at Lafayette is another example. It is poorly designed in a number of aspects.

Also, the opposition expressed by some Lafayette Park residents isn't as uniform as people seem to think. There is also quite a bit of support among Lafayette Park residents for surfacing 375. It is something that is frequently talked about and debated in the neighborhood. I will grant that there is a fair number of LP residents opposed, but there are many of us who support it as well.

One of the the biggest reasons cited by the people opposed to the surfacing proposal is the financial aspect, which is brought up by nearly everybody who is opposed to the idea. The problem with this argument is that it is factually incorrect.

The whole reason that we are having this discussion and debate is because I-375 is at the end of its life. The freeway and bridges were built 54 years ago, and they need to be completely replaced at some point in the near future. MDOT estimates that it will cost $80-90 million to replace the freeway and bridges if they are rebuilt in the existing configuration. The alternate proposals for surfacing and reconfiguring are estimated to cost $40-50 million, and also significantly reduce maintenance costs in the future.

Grade separated freeways are very expensive to replace and maintain, and I-375 clearly does not provide the necessary return on investment to continue pouring in the additional tens of millions of dollars required to maintain it.

The direct economic benefit of surfacing I-375 is clear, as it will save some $40-50 million on the reconstruction costs alone. There seems to be a widely held assumption by the surfacing opposers that maintaining the existing freeway doesn't cost anything, while the surfacing project will require a large additional investment. Despite what people may think, this simply is not the case.

We basically have three options with I-375:

1. Spend $80-90 million to maintain it as it is
2. Spend $40-50 million to reconfigure it into a surface street
3. Spend nothing and completely close it off when the infrastructure begins to fail.

Keep in mind that option three will likely result in the cascading closures of Jefferson, Larned, and Lafayette as well.

[Gistok]

It absolutely cuts off access to downtown and the near eastside. The fact that it doesn't have access to Gratiot is perfect example of this. Gratiot is the main east/west trunkline from the eastside to downtown, and the freeway just blows past it. The Gratiot exit leads you all the way past eastern market, and requires you to backtrack to go to the market or downtown. The Madison exit requires you to go down a few blocks, turn left, then turn onto Gratiot. This is a very poor way for the freeway to interface with the main east-west trunkline. The bottleneck at Lafayette is another example. It is poorly designed in a number of aspects.

Um anyone who knows downtown and wants to get on Gratiot knows to either A) take one of the north south roads to Gratiot [[Randolph, Brush or St. Antoine [[north of Lafayette) to Gratiot, or B) if your really in a hurry then get onto I-375 NB and go east onto the Fisher until it ends at Gratiot thus having 3 lanes of freeway traffic going onto NB Gratiot.

But don't make this sound like there's some major problem with I-375 because people getting onto the Freeway can't get off 2 exits later since there's no exact Gratiot exit. Just try taking the Lodge and getting off at Michigan Ave.... that ain't gonna happen either!

It was designed like that because there are other options available.... and not as though there was some major flaw in the original design...

And anyone downtown that want's to go 1/2 mile to Eastern Market should know better than to try to take a freeway to get there...

It's almost like complaining that you can't get to the Fox Theatre from SB I-75... some destinations require going past and backtracking... or just taking surface streets. I can come up with 100 different scenarios of places downtown and midtown similar to not being able to get to Eastern Market from I-375. They just require different routes.

[erikd]

Um anyone who knows downtown and wants to get on Gratiot knows to either A) take one of the north south roads to Gratiot [[Randolph, Brush or St. Antoine [[north of Lafayette) to Gratiot, or B) if your really in a hurry then get onto I-375 NB and go east onto the Fisher until it ends at Gratiot thus having 3 lanes of freeway traffic going onto NB Gratiot.

But don't make this sound like there's some major problem with I-375 because people getting onto the Freeway can't get off 2 exits later since there's no exact Gratiot exit. Just try taking the Lodge and getting off at Michigan Ave.... that ain't gonna happen either!

It was designed like that because there are other options available.... and not as though there was some major flaw in the original design...

And anyone downtown that want's to go 1/2 mile to Eastern Market should know better than to try to take a freeway to get there...

It's almost like complaining that you can't get to the Fox Theatre from SB I-75... some destinations require going past and backtracking... or just taking surface streets. I can come up with 100 different scenarios of places downtown and midtown similar to not being able to get to Eastern Market from I-375. They just require different routes.

I agree that anyone who knows downtown knows all of the shortcuts and ways to maneuver through the surface streets. I live here and am very familiar with all of this. The freeway isn't a problem for me personally. However, downtown is a business/government/entertainment center, and therefore, most of the people who are taking the freeway into downtown are not locals from the neighborhood, and do not have the same knowledge as you and I.

If the freeways that go through downtown do not make it easier and faster for visitors and commuters to get in and out of downtown, then what good are they?

Why should we spend tens of millions of dollars to maintain limited access freeways through downtown that only make it harder, slower, and more confusing for people?

What is the benefit that justifies all the additional expense to maintain these downtown freeway nubs?

[That Great Guy]

And there was a damn good reason why they pretty much all ended up in public hands eventually. I have no idea why everyone is in such a hurry to relive the era of the robber barons and transportation monopolists, and to relearn the lessons of the late 19th and early 20th centuries all over again.

On August 5, 2014 the $27 Million per year SMART got should have been defeated.

The exact same money SMART used to get is widening I-75 with HOV lanes and greatly increasing the size of I-94. The massive bus service reductions, cuts in federal and state money for SMART is for self gain. So, unless this money and service is fully restored without more tax increases, then YES SMART should be privatized and sold to Mr. Gilbert or someone like him who want to profit.

Mr. John Hertel of SMART supports large freeways.

So, you DetroitYES people will get the HOV from gas taxes and not bus service because majority rules. Unless we demand as voters the CTF funds are returned to SMART and DDOT then it won't likely happen unless of course we get real mass transit leadership.

Instead we get people like Governor Snyder who want to tax your license plate tab for the RTA instead of filling up empty buses

So, you are wrong sir. It is long past time to privatize transportation. And YES, it is time to sell both SMART and DDOT. They will never ever be able to serve the public without fare box money.

The cities with the best transportation is where users pay. There should be Tolls for the HOV now that we have the technology and there won't be because we just raised $27 Million per year for them to put safety last, then job growth next to last.




Thank You very much for your post because I do understand what you are saying by reading the government should be in the best interest of safety and jobs. Yes, our leaders should be and hopefully they will listen to the majority of voters and restore bus service before they come back for more money

[erikd]

First, I-375 had nothing to do with the tunnel. It was designed to complete a symmetrical downtown loop.

HB

I forgot to address this this point in my first reply, but it deserves a response.

If the purpose of I-375 was not to provide easier access to the tunnel, but rather to complete a symmetrical downtown loop, then it is the most idiotic freeway ever built.

Why would anyone ever take I-75 south to 375 just to loop around the bottom of downtown and head back north on the Lodge [[or vice versa)? I-75 already cuts across the top of downtown and connects directly with the Lodge, which saves you a few miles if you did want to take 75 south into downtown just for the purpose of taking the Lodge back north out of downtown.

The very idea of creating a freeway loop around the bottom of downtown just to connect the freeways is nonsensical and serves no purpose.

[ghettopalmetto]

The very idea of creating a freeway loop around the bottom of downtown just to connect the freeways is nonsensical and serves no purpose.

But so goes the entire profession of traffic engineering, where cookbook formulas rule over anything else.

Now, let's see if Dan Gilbert has any other road projects on his wish list that MDOT can rubber-stamp sans vetting.