Death of Public Transportation

[pumphandle]

Well, it would help if everybody stopped owning and maintaining houses. If we all move into concrete high-rise apartments, we'll have the housing density we need to make light-rail work, and at the same time we won't need cars to get to our homes, nor to maintain them and our yards. We could be like the Chinese and others, existing in a concrete box, without any handyman skills, and commuting every day by rail-car to our dead-end cubicle job working for the government.

Nobody is arguing that we should all live in concrete boxes and lose our skills, though I certainly haven't minded my time living in apartments. Places like Chicago and Boston have plenty of homes of all sizes. They even exist in Berlin, which Time Out Magazine says has the best transit in the world.

All I'm arguing for here is something that many parts of the world consider basic infrastructure. Imagine trying to convince Jeff Bezos to move his headquarters to a city without reliable electric power or a sewer system. That is what the state is currently up against, from the perspective of a lot of employers. If you like losing population, as Michigan did last year, by all means, keep the state's culture firmly centered on the auto industry at the expense of everything else. If not, then it might not be a good idea to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

I say this as a Michigander by birth who loves just about everything else about the state. Hopefully someday I can visit again without having to rent a car. Heck, if Detroit were to get shovels in the ground for even a single subway line that went outside of city limits, I would be looking at jobs in the city right away!

[ABetterDetroit]

If not, then it might not be a good idea to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Like putting a Transit Millage up for a vote over and over again just to see it defeated repeatedly? Decade after decade? The property tax system is broken in Detroit, even the Democratic Mayor is is stating this simple fact. The rates are and have been detrimental to development and population growth.

A dedicated funding source is crucial to any transit improvement. Without it it doesn’t matter what is desired, it is all a pipe dream. Transit is expensive starting from scratch. Uncle sugar will expect a dedicated reliable local funding source before he lays out serious cash for brand new starting from nothing rail.

Ask “Do we need rail?” on this board and for a long time now and all you hear are hundreds of reasons why we do and where the tracks should go. Ask “How do we pay for rail?” then the silence is deafening until someone gets up and starts beating the rotting corpse of a property tax millage increase for the umpteenth time like it hasn’t already failed many times here before.

[Rocket]

The property tax system is broken in Detroit, even the Democratic Mayor is is stating this..............

Ask “How do we pay for rail?” then the silence is deafening until someone gets up and starts beating the rotting corpse of a property tax millage increase....

Ahh yes. Conflicting directions, simultaneously proposed. Good stuff.


Cities with a city income tax are harder to bring back.

Getting businesses, business professionals, and laborers to want to work here just becomes 1% harder [plus the accounting fees].

And that's on top of the single worst schools in the country with nearly the highest cost.

It's ridiculous to even suggest more taxes at this point. The city needs to find a way to use the money they have now 2-3 times as efficiently.


For reference,

Buffalo N.Y. spends $568 million on a pop of 884,000. Or $642 per person.

Miami spends $9.3 billion on 6.265 million people, or $1,484 per person.

Virginia Beach spends $2.5 billion on 1.488 million people. Or $1,680 per person.

Whereas Detroit's budget equals $3,952 per person.

That's 2.35 times as much as VA Beach spends, 2.66 times as much as Miami and 6 times as much as Buffalo N.Y.

[Richard]

Ahh yes. Conflicting directions, simultaneously proposed. Good stuff.


Cities with a city income tax are harder to bring back.

Getting businesses, business professionals, and laborers to want to work here just becomes 1% harder [plus the accounting fees].

And that's on top of the single worst schools in the country with nearly the highest cost.

It's ridiculous to even suggest more taxes at this point. The city needs to find a way to use the money they have now 2-3 times as efficiently.


For reference,

Buffalo N.Y. spends $568 million on a pop of 884,000. Or $642 per person.

Miami spends $9.3 billion on 6.265 million people, or $1,484 per person.

Virginia Beach spends $2.5 billion on 1.488 million people. Or $1,680 per person.

Whereas Detroit's budget equals $3,952 per person.

That's 2.35 times as much as VA Beach spends, 2.66 times as much as Miami and 6 times as much as Buffalo N.Y.

The city of Detroit reported having 10,525 full-time employees in 2012, which was two years before it filed for bankruptcy. The city emerged from bankruptcy in 2015 with 6,187 FTEs, a 41% reduction in the full-time workforce.
Since then Detroit has been steadily growing its payroll, with 8,935 FTEs on the books in 2021, according to the city’s 2021 audited budget.

The payroll expansion has occurred even as Detroit's population continues to fall. There were 713,777 Detroit residents in 2010, a figure that dropped to 639,111 in 2020, according to the U.S. Census.

https://www.michigancapitolconfident...-in-five-years

Requested by the city council in the 2023 budget proposal was a 25% pay increase and a 65% pay increase for the city clerk which would have brought them over a $100k per year instead of the usual 3.5%.

Bus drivers are paid $16 per hour and have a horrible attendance rate,wonder why.

The city lost $29 million out of the tax collection from WFH last year,but yet city residents will throw their support behind WFH,which is okay as long as it comes with the understanding that you will be the one making up for that $29 million shortfall,because that money was already spent.

As the city grew smaller the government employees required to manage grew larger.

Money was spent instituting programs that there will be no funding in order to sub-stain them long term.

Over 1 billion was spent on market rate units that will never show a profit and will require propping up in the future.

The city draws more revenue from sin taxes then legitimate workers.

Read the 2022 and 2023 budget reports and where the spending is.

The first round of demolitions was done by a $153 million bond - okay pay it off over time at a lower interest rate.

Now receive millions in free money and it was more important and a priority to demolish places like Packard because It provides good optics.

Instead of leveraging that money with Federal transportation grants which would have or could have covered the heavy costs of a more solid transportation system.

6 million to make things look pretty for a game in 2024,y’all been down that road before.

I agree the funds are there and are available,but some seem more concerned about optics then eating tomorrow.

It does not make sense,some actions are well thought out and beneficial to the taxpayer today and in the future while others are reminiscent of people that win the lottery and think that pile of money is never going to run out,until it does.

It does not matter who rides public transportation,it should be the basic core of transportation in a urban environment because there are always going to be that class of people that do the crap jobs.

Think about that,a bus driver in Detroit making $16 per hour would have a rough time catching a bus to work.

FTA was handing out mass transit grants like candy last year all across the country,the last time Detroit applied for and received grants was in 2019 when they split $12.8 million with flint and spent $8.9 million on new fare boxes.

No new requests or submittals in 4 years sense,there is no excuse for that.

Sometimes Detroit is like a cow and everybody and their mothers brother keeps milking it and the residents end up with the empty bucket.

If people are really serious about public transportation and implementing it they only way you are going to make headway is by becoming the squeaky wheel because otherwise you will not get the grease.

You are trying to improve public transportation in the region while others are using your energy to make money for them,they do not actually care if the buses run on time or not.

[stasu1213]

The city of Detroit reported having 10,525 full-time employees in 2012, which was two years before it filed for bankruptcy. The city emerged from bankruptcy in 2015 with 6,187 FTEs, a 41% reduction in the full-time workforce.
Since then Detroit has been steadily growing its payroll, with 8,935 FTEs on the books in 2021, according to the city’s 2021 audited budget.

The payroll expansion has occurred even as Detroit's population continues to fall. There were 713,777 Detroit residents in 2010, a figure that dropped to 639,111 in 2020, according to the U.S. Census.

https://www.michigancapitolconfident...-in-five-years

Requested by the city council in the 2023 budget proposal was a 25% pay increase and a 65% pay increase for the city clerk which would have brought them over a $100k per year instead of the usual 3.5%.

Bus drivers are paid $16 per hour and have a horrible attendance rate,wonder why.

The city lost $29 million out of the tax collection from WFH last year,but yet city residents will throw their support behind WFH,which is okay as long as it comes with the understanding that you will be the one making up for that $29 million shortfall,because that money was already spent.

As the city grew smaller the government employees required to manage grew larger.

Money was spent instituting programs that there will be no funding in order to sub-stain them long term.

Over 1 billion was spent on market rate units that will never show a profit and will require propping up in the future.

The city draws more revenue from sin taxes then legitimate workers.

Read the 2022 and 2023 budget reports and where the spending is.

The first round of demolitions was done by a $153 million bond - okay pay it off over time at a lower interest rate.

Now receive millions in free money and it was more important and a priority to demolish places like Packard because It provides good optics.

Instead of leveraging that money with Federal transportation grants which would have or could have covered the heavy costs of a more solid transportation system.

6 million to make things look pretty for a game in 2024,y’all been down that road before.

I agree the funds are there and are available,but some seem more concerned about optics then eating tomorrow.

It does not make sense,some actions are well thought out and beneficial to the taxpayer today and in the future while others are reminiscent of people that win the lottery and think that pile of money is never going to run out,until it does.

It does not matter who rides public transportation,it should be the basic core of transportation in a urban environment because there are always going to be that class of people that do the crap jobs.

Think about that,a bus driver in Detroit making $16 per hour would have a rough time catching a bus to work.

FTA was handing out mass transit grants like candy last year all across the country,the last time Detroit applied for and received grants was in 2019 when they split $12.8 million with flint and spent $8.9 million on new fare boxes.

No new requests or submittals in 4 years sense,there is no excuse for that.

Sometimes Detroit is like a cow and everybody and their mothers brother keeps milking it and the residents end up with the empty bucket.

If people are really serious about public transportation and implementing it they only way you are going to make headway is by becoming the squeaky wheel because otherwise you will not get the grease.

You are trying to improve public transportation in the region while others are using your energy to make money for them,they do not actually care if the buses run on time or not.

A 25% pay increase for City Council! For doing what? Whi OKs the pay increases for Council members and the Clerk?. Their salaries should remain at not more than $85,000 a year. That's being generous. Public safety employees are still the lowest paid of most big cities. Bus drivers are the Ines that deserve close to a 25% pay as well as teachers being that they deal with a dangerous public and having to teach many children from broken homes. Many teachers had used their own money to buy groceries, soap, and sometimes undergarments for their students whom are too poor to have those items at home.

[drjeff]

Ahh yes. Conflicting directions, simultaneously proposed. Good stuff.


Cities with a city income tax are harder to bring back.

Getting businesses, business professionals, and laborers to want to work here just becomes 1% harder [plus the accounting fees].

And that's on top of the single worst schools in the country with nearly the highest cost.

It's ridiculous to even suggest more taxes at this point. The city needs to find a way to use the money they have now 2-3 times as efficiently.


For reference,

Buffalo N.Y. spends $568 million on a pop of 884,000. Or $642 per person.

Miami spends $9.3 billion on 6.265 million people, or $1,484 per person.

Virginia Beach spends $2.5 billion on 1.488 million people. Or $1,680 per person.

Whereas Detroit's budget equals $3,952 per person.

That's 2.35 times as much as VA Beach spends, 2.66 times as much as Miami and 6 times as much as Buffalo N.Y.

Your population numbers are way, way off.
The population of Buffalo is 276,000
The population of Virginia Beach is 450,000, not anything close to 1.5 million
The population of Miami, FL is 440,000

You are apparently counting the huge metro areas and not the actual cities.

[Jason]

Your population numbers are way, way off.
The population of Buffalo is 276,000
The population of Virginia Beach is 450,000, not anything close to 1.5 million
The population of Miami, FL is 440,000

You are apparently counting the huge metro areas and not the actual cities.

Those numbers also don't account for the way different areas have different levels of government handling different responsibilities. Buffalo has a regional transit agency which covers both public transit and the airports. Detroit also does water/sewage, while Buffalo's is in a separate agency. Detroit also does public housing, and some public health stuff, which it also looks like Buffalo does separately. Looking through Detroit's budget, it looks like almost half the spending is from things that would be done at the county or state level, or in separate agencies, in other cities.

Even the income tax issue he brought up isn't really the whole story. Yes it matters, because you have two places right next to each other where in one you pay less income tax [[although in reality people tend to start with where they want to be, and then go to their most favored place they can afford, not the other way around). But if the discussion is about the tax burden, then it's misleading, because while city residents pay 2.4%, the state income tax is only 4.25%, and 6.65% is still completely in line with other states. Going back to my point in the previous paragraph, if Michigan simply had a 6.65% income tax and sent back 2.4% back to the municipalities in the form of revenue sharing, people would say Detroit had "lower taxes" even though in reality it didn't.

[pumphandle]

Like putting a Transit Millage up for a vote over and over again just to see it defeated repeatedly?

I might be wrong, as I haven't lived in Michigan for a while now, but from what I remember, the last couple millage proposals were centered around BRT, not rail, right?

Another genuine question: Has metro Grand Rapids ever in recent decades put a regional rail plan to a vote? I don't follow GR news as much as Detroit news, so I don't know.