Wayne State University is one of the most embarrassing aspects of Detroit.

[noise]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1250994.html

Wayne State has the lowest graduation rate of any publicly-funded University in Michigan.

In terms of the gap between white and black student graduation rates, Wayne State has the biggest gap of any school in the nation. Let me repeat that, the biggest gap IN THE ENTIRE NATION. WSU is the WORST SCHOOL IN AMERICA when it comes to the disparity between black students and white students graduating.

It's right there in the Huffington Post article if you don't believe me, read it for yourself. You still want to deny that there's a problem at Wayne State? But I guess I'm just "jumping to conclusions" based on actual numbers and evidence.

I'd actually like to shine light on these problems so we can try to fix them, whereas I guess the approach of yourself and others here is to bury your heads in the sand or stick your fingers in your ears while yelling "I AM NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA LA" because you don't want to hear any criticism no matter how true or legitimate.

Why did you change your argument? Please be honest about this. You brought up admissions and I asked you to bring forth adequate evidence. Now you're talking about graduation rates and are refusing to present catalysts.

This is the same tactic blatant racists use when discussing blacks in America.

[noise]

This is awesome, do you know what WSU's primary feeder district is? Do you know where the root of the problem is? Because you haven't said it yet, and your willful ignornace of the truth is a pretty telltale sign that you either a)don't full grasp the situation b) hold a grudge against WSU c) are a troll d) a continual shit stirrer who avoids facts to get all upset about things.

This has been the MO of 48009 from the beginning and it's apparently aj3647's approach.

It's odd that everyone else would be accused of being apathetic when the actual root issues are being ignored by the accusers.

[gnome]

Finding iPhone typos on a Detroit message board = Get a life.

Well now I just am a whole confusslement of contridictulations.

If you don't consider the misuse of punctuation important, especially when committed with an iPhone, then why would you go back and edit the correction? To me, if I truly didn't give a hoot, I wouldn't bother with correcting anything. Why would you take the time to read my suggestions, scroll back to your post, press the really tiny edit button, mess around with corrections and then re-post?

Seems like a ton of bother for a person whose life is so full and rewarding.

[drjeff]

Yes, but you aren't taught by the faculty with the skills and reputations. They are all doing research. You get graduate assistants and adjunct faculty for your money.

I am glad I went to a college with no graduate school. We had full professors teaching freshman courses.

This is absolutely false. I'm a professor at WSU med school. Nearly all of the professors teach. I run a fairly large research lab, have three large research grants, and I still do a lot of teaching. All the best professors on main campus teach undergrads. If you want to get taught by a GTA, UM is your place.

[Det_ard]

Wayne State is a microcosm of Detroit. Small pockets of goodness surrounded by vast swaths of mediocrity or outright incompetence.

If they want to be effectively a four-year community college with an "urban mission" they can not also expect the reputation to more than that. With the small exception of a few programs at the graduate level that every WSU cheerleader seems to hang their hat on.

[motz]

This is absolutely false. I'm a professor at WSU med school. Nearly all of the professors teach. I run a fairly large research lab, have three large research grants, and I still do a lot of teaching. All the best professors on main campus teach undergrads. If you want to get taught by a GTA, UM is your place.

No drjeff, you see, WSU is an urban university that isn't perfect and as such, screw that place. I will use ALL OF THE NOT FACTS I can to prove this to you, even though you work there and have this knowledge first hand.

[bailey]

WSU offers a number of programs to prepare younger DPS students for a future college career. What more can they do? That's a real question. Close the doors until DPS improves?

You've said this a couple of times... why would WSU need to close if it raised it's standards? I'm sure DPS is feeding a lot into WSU, but if no DPS kid got in [[not at all saying there are NO DPS qualified for admission) would that really kill the school?

[noise]

You've said this a couple of times... why would WSU need to close if it raised it's standards? I'm sure DPS is feeding a lot into WSU, but if no DPS kid got in [[not at all saying there are NO DPS qualified for admission) would that really kill the school?

I've simply asked it. Detroit is tied to the University's mission. They're interwoven in such a way that it would be difficult to change this. Of course, I don't suspect anyone at any level of the University wants to change this.

So I'm asking: what are the other options? Would changing the mission and excluding Detroit and its citizens do a lot to improve the city?

[noise]

Wayne State is a microcosm of Detroit. Small pockets of goodness surrounded by vast swaths of mediocrity or outright incompetence.

If they want to be effectively a four-year community college with an "urban mission" they can not also expect the reputation to more than that. With the small exception of a few programs at the graduate level that every WSU cheerleader seems to hang their hat on.

Well, the "small exception" also includes the 8,000 employees, 5,000+ degrees granted, and the endless research produced.

[bailey]

I've simply asked it. Detroit is tied to the University's mission. They're interwoven in such a way that it would be difficult to change this. Of course, I don't suspect anyone at any level of the University wants to change this.

So I'm asking: what are the other options? Would changing the mission and excluding Detroit and its citizens do a lot to improve the city?

Well, again, you're making a bold assertion that raising standards would be a per se exclusion of "detroit and its citizens". Is excluding or redirecting to WCCCD some DPS students going to do MORE of a disservice to those people than admitting them when they are in no way prepared for college, saddling them with debt, and cutting them loose?

WCCCD should be the open enrollment, remedial facility that prepares "detroit and it's citizens" for WSU since DPS seems incapable of it. I guess I just don't see how there would be any diminution of WSU's mission if it raised its admission standards.

as a side point, raising standards is not going to solely affect Detroit/DPS.

[canuck]

Well now I just am a whole confusslement of contridictulations.

If you don't consider the misuse of punctuation important, especially when committed with an iPhone, then why would you go back and edit the correction? To me, if I truly didn't give a hoot, I wouldn't bother with correcting anything. Why would you take the time to read my suggestions, scroll back to your post, press the really tiny edit button, mess around with corrections and then re-post?

Seems like a ton of bother for a person whose life is so full and rewarding.

Luv this here post a yers Nome. Reeding you sure beets filing my nails.

[aj3647]

Why did you change your argument? Please be honest about this. You brought up admissions and I asked you to bring forth adequate evidence. Now you're talking about graduation rates and are refusing to present catalysts.

I've always been talking about graduation rates, you apparently just lack basic reading comprehension. Here's my original post:

I graduated from WSU and yes, its graduate [[Medical, Law) programs and research institute status are genuine points of pride, as most Michigan universities don't have those things. But its piss poor graduation rate is a legitimate criticism.

Bolded and underlined to make it easier for you to read it. Care to address the evidence now, or are you going to make up another lie about how I'm "changing my argument" even though I flat out plain as day said "graduation rates" in my post?

[noise]

Well, again, you're making a bold assertion that raising standards would be a per se exclusion of "detroit and its citizens". Is excluding or redirecting to WCCCD some DPS students going to do MORE of a disservice to those people than admitting them when they are in no way prepared for college, saddling them with debt, and cutting them loose?

Is that really bold? Who would be affected by tougher admissions standards? Less qualified students. Who attends WSU? Primarily regional students. I don't think it's bold to say students in the Detroit region would be excluded.

WCCCD should be the open enrollment, remedial facility that prepares "detroit and it's citizens" for WSU since DPS seems incapable of it. I guess I just don't see how there would be any diminution of WSU's mission if it raised its admission standards.

I understand that you don't see it, but apparently the administrators do. Does a decrease in enrollment negatively affect the University? Would a negative impact on the University affect the University's mission? Really, I'm just asking again. They're not loaded questions.

as a side point, raising standards is not going to solely affect Detroit/DPS.

Very much agreed.

[noise]

I've always been talking about graduation rates, you apparently just lack basic reading comprehension. Here's my original post:



Bolded and underlined to make it easier for you to read it. Care to address the evidence now, or are you going to make up another lie about how I'm "changing my argument" even though I flat out plain as day said "graduation rates" in my post?

It's a shame you want to devolve the discussion in such a strange way. From your original post, and from which I clearly responded:

There's no need to bash the school or the city. The school is fine. The education you receive there is on par with many affordable public universities nationwide. But it's admission policy for years has been setting students up for failure. If you have a pulse, they'll probably let you in. And odds are, you'll leave there with nothing to show for it except thousands in student loan debt. It is inherently wrong and worthy of discussion, even if the OP has gone about it in a hostile way.

So is it worthy of discussion or not? You don't seem to want to discuss it. I tried and then you wanted to revert to a discussion in which I did not engage.

You've been invited to discuss root causes. Failure to do so reveals your true intentions.

[Chinman]

Simple question. Why is it the Schools fault if they give you the opportunity to improve your skills, get a degree or learn something? What ever rate they charge you is not the issue. If you think that just because you attend that school that they OWE you a Degree is dis-ingenues. Once they admit you, it is then up to you to do the work, learn the curriculum and EARN IT!

[bailey]

Simple question. Why is it the Schools fault if they give you the opportunity to improve your skills, get a degree or learn something? What ever rate they charge you is not the issue. If you think that just because you attend that school that they OWE you a Degree is dis-ingenues. Once they admit you, it is then up to you to do the work, learn the curriculum and EARN IT!

The school doesn't owe anyone a diploma, however it does owe them a fair shot at one. The issue is admitting [[and charging them a premium rate) those who are totally unqualified for college.

[Chinman]

the school gave you "A Fair Shot at One" they allowed you to attend and see if you can make it based on your abilities. the onerous is on you at that point.

[Chinman]

If you go to College to Be Nurse, Doctor, Banker, economist...but don't have the drive or simple understanding, Why is it the college's job to instill upon you those required disciplines?

[Chinman]

I dropped out of College because I was not being taught the needed knowledge for my profession. I was a Retail Store Manager for 20 years. I learned enough in High School...Algebra II, Physical Science and Geometry I and finally Remedial Math. I think the problem now is that High Schools don't, or students don't, think there is a need for early learning. it seems that their thinking is...graduate them so we get the numbers needed for Federal or State dollars.

[aj3647]

So is it worthy of discussion or not? You don't seem to want to discuss it. I tried and then you wanted to revert to a discussion in which I did not engage.

You've been invited to discuss root causes. Failure to do so reveals your true intentions.

You don't want to discuss, and don't pretend like you do. All you did was ignore the point, and turn it back around on me. You want me to cite you numbers about their admissions process? Fine, according to US News & World Report, they have an acceptance rate of over 80%, which ranks them among the least selective colleges in Michigan. Indeed, WSU doesn't even have minimum admissions requirements [[the only requirement even listed on their website is that those with GEDs must have at least a 21 on the ACT). According to CollegeData.com, at the low-end, WSU admitted students with GPAs as low as 2.0 and ACT scores as low as 15. 15!

Now, would YOU like to discuss the fact that they have the lowest graduation rate of any public university in the state and what you believe is the cause of that? Because you seem to keep dodging that little inconvenient point at every turn. I gave you the numbers you asked for, now please address the graduation statistics.

[Zug]

Honest question...outside of U of M and MSU, do people look at any other in-state university's undergraduate programs as being far superior to Wayne State?

Personally, I only ever hear people tout undergrad departments at U of M and MSU. The rest all seem to be in the same boat.

p.s. In my last post, DPL was supposed to be DPS. Thanks for correcting.

[bailey]

If you go to College to Be Nurse, Doctor, Banker, economist...but don't have the drive or simple understanding, Why is it the college's job to instill upon you those required disciplines?

It's WSU's job to weed out those who don't have the basic aptitude to complete the undergrad curriculum. Most other schools do that every day by looking at grades, school district, SAT/ACTs..etc. They have their minimum qualifications that they think will give them a cohort of incoming students that will [[assuming they do the work) be able to graduate.

WSU is now doing what it long refused to do, re-directing those that need extensive remedial education to WCCCD.

[C_S_14]

This has been the MO of 48009 from the beginning and it's apparently aj3647's approach.

It's odd that everyone else would be accused of being apathetic when the actual root issues are being ignored by the accusers.

"Root issues" are an unethical and greedy university letting in easy marks, i.e., students from low income and low education backgrounds, knowing damn well they aren't ready for and can't compete in a university setting.

The quality of DPS has nothing to do with Wayne State University. Doesn't matter where a student is from, if they're not ready for a university you don't let thousands in and take out loans that are 3x and 4x as much as community college. Raising tuition 8.9% further illustrates that they have no issue taking advantage of their desperate surroundings.

[bailey]

yes, everyone heard you. having 4 user names doesn't make your point any stronger.

[noise]

You don't want to discuss, and don't pretend like you do. All you did was ignore the point, and turn it back around on me. You want me to cite you numbers about their admissions process? Fine, according to US News & World Report, they have an acceptance rate of over 80%, which ranks them among the least selective colleges in Michigan. Indeed, WSU doesn't even have minimum admissions requirements [[the only requirement even listed on their website is that those with GEDs must have at least a 21 on the ACT). According to CollegeData.com, at the low-end, WSU admitted students with GPAs as low as 2.0 and ACT scores as low as 15. 15!

Now, would YOU like to discuss the fact that they have the lowest graduation rate of any public university in the state and what you believe is the cause of that? Because you seem to keep dodging that little inconvenient point at every turn. I gave you the numbers you asked for, now please address the graduation statistics.

Actually, that's not at all what I asked for. I don't think admissions numbers is the same thing as admissions policy, which is what you stated. I was hoping for a comparison of WSU's admissions policies vs. peer institution's policies. Otherwise, we're just posting numbers with no analysis. And as mentioned, that seems to be your MO.

I believe their low graduation rate is due to a large number of things. Primarily, their location and mission. Poor public schools with inflated numbers. A number of students never interested in a degree. Additionally, the same exact things every other school doesn't reach 100%, perhaps magnified. I have a difficult time faulting the University for these things.

I'm still confused by your hostility when repeatedly asking for root causes, but maybe that's because I'm erroneously giving you the benefit of doubt when it comes to potential trolling.