Bus rapid transit system could boost metro Detroit, experts say

[Parkguy]

... but we also have a budget and a need to solve this regional transit issue here and now. ...So far BRT is the only solution to REGIONAL transit that has been presented. I would happily accept BRT in a minute if construction can start soon. I really dont give a damn if i'm riding a fancy bus or a fancy train, as long as a I dont have to use my car and it gets me from Pt. A to Pt. B quickly and efficiently. BRT is the only system that has been presented that could get me from not only Hart Plaza to Ferndale but also downtown to the Airport or downtown to Mt. Clemens or Midtown to mid-Oakland County. As pretty and successful as LRT is, we do not have the budget or regional support for it. We have regional support for BRT. Let's run with it and actually solve our regional transit crisis once and for all.

I have to agree here. I'm glad that LRT is still in the works for Woodward, and I'm glad that BRT is being developed for other lines. I'm not so sure that Hall Road is the right route, but if that gets Macomb County on board, then great. By the way, the big light rail study done by URS a couple of years ago indicated that Gratiot was not a candidate for LRT at all because of the huge costs in infrastructure changes it would require: too many bridges, underpasses, and buried streams. And, at least in the short run, something like BRT will shuttle airport passengers from the train station at Michigan and Merriman/Henry Ruff Rd. to the airport. The plans do not call for a rail spur to the actual airport, unless there were changes I didn't hear about.

[ghettopalmetto]

Wesley Mouch, do the math. Even on Euclid Avenue's shorter eastbound trip, that works out to 12 miles per hour.

That's right. Twelve. About the same average speed as a regular ole stuck-in-traffic Manhattan bus.

Is that "rapid" to you?

Sorry, folks. If you think you're going to get anything "rapid" on a budget, you've been mislead. Sure, you can concoct some perverted form of rapid transit with buses--new buses with a sexy paint job and branding, for instance--but it sure as hell isn't going to be anywhere comparable to light rail. And any "new technology" they introduce isn't something that DDOT couldn't already be doing on the 53 Woodward.

You've been fooled. And it's not your fault, really. Rick Snyder is hoping that transit-ignorant Michigan will be happy with the crumbs he throws your way.

Light rail, by the way, can average operating speeds exceeding 24 mph [[Los Angeles, Baltimore, Denver, Salt Lake), which makes it very competitive with automobile travel.

Bus rapid transit is no solution. SMART, as it stands, has the longest average bus trip lengths in the nation. In. The. Nation. And that's at the higher operating costs inherent to buses. All because Detroit don't need no dang stinkin rail. Good luck running a massive regional BRT system when diesel hits $5/gallon--the metrics aren't going to improve any, and you'll be stuck with a white elephant subject to severe economic shocks while the rest of the world moves forward on electrically-powered trains.

[Islandman]

Don't forget Charlotte GP. Seriously, this regional area is never going to get it; the brainwash is on. People trained to drive their entire lives, even while visiting other cities, are never going to get what is fucking obvious. It will never happen in Metro Detroit. Mass transit will continue to be invalidated in this area with trumped up bullshit.

I applaud your efforts to get people to see the light; alas, it's in vain.

[ghettopalmetto]

Don't forget Charlotte GP. Seriously, this regional area is never going to get it; the brainwash is on. People trained to drive their entire lives, even while visiting other cities, are never going to get what is fucking obvious. It will never happen in Metro Detroit. Mass transit will continue to be invalidated in this area with trumped up bullshit.

I applaud your efforts to get people to see the light; alas, it's in vain.

Well, that's okay. Some people are just fine with primered flames and neon lights on a hatchback. Actual performance doesn't matter, as long as it LOOKS fast.

[DetroitPlanner]

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...-transit/1438/

The above article is a review of a book that explains transit. Transit is a hard concept for many to understand. You can see we have serious issues prioritizing things in the region. One need to only look at what keeps going on with Woodward to see that the transit activists in our region have a vision, but they are rarely the same one. What do we want? Do we want a fancy system known that in order to get it some folks will be denied access to the current system? The money pie is only so big and its not growing, its shrinking in many ways.

[professorscott]

The money pie is only so big and its not growing, its shrinking in many ways.

Good point, 'Planner, and in order for us to be able to do anything, we have to figure out how to bake our own money pie. One of the reasons transit is so thin here is that Uncle Sugar allocates money to regions based on, among other things, regional match and regional cooperation. In the past, we've been weak on both counts. We do have the opportunity right now, this moment, to somewhat fix both.

[antongast]

We do have the opportunity right now, this moment, to somewhat fix both.

Can you elaborate?

[DetroitPlanner]

Can you elaborate?

There are a series of bills going through the State Legislature that will hopefully improve how things are operated and funded in regards to transportation. These vary from a wide range of issues such as why locals can't raise thier own taxes through other means than millages to dedicate to transportation to why a mile of road that gets a lot of traffic in an urban area gets the same amount of funding as say a road in the UP. Also included is an RTA and a revision to how gasoline is taxed. Currently gasoline taxes have remained at 19 cents per gallon since the mid 1990's while inflation has eaten up its buying power. Remember this is used for buying stuff like fuel for buses or buying buses. Back in the Mid 1990's gas was selling for no more than a buck and a half a gallon, busses cost $200k. New buses with hybrid or bio features or CNG can cost $400k on up. We are falling behind and out transit and roads reflect this.
http://www.semcog.org/LegislativeIss...tionBills.aspx

[Danny]

Screw mass transit! All this talk of new public regional transit has led to a DEAD END! Let's JOBS, JOBS, JOBS and regional growth first. Then we can bring new regional transit from off the political shelf.

[casscorridor]

Bus rapid transit is no solution. SMART, as it stands, has the longest average bus trip lengths in the nation. In. The. Nation. And that's at the higher operating costs inherent to buses. All because Detroit don't need no dang stinkin rail. Good luck running a massive regional BRT system when diesel hits $5/gallon--the metrics aren't going to improve any, and you'll be stuck with a white elephant subject to severe economic shocks while the rest of the world moves forward on electrically-powered trains.

Yep, suburban Detroit would be better off having a regional commuter rail system with local buses that connect the surrounding areas. Urban Detroit needs mass transit -- frequent, high-capacity, rail system serving the core of Detroit [[and connecting to the airport and major suburban job centers such as Dearborn or Southfield) in addition to frequent, 24hr bus service on all major roads in the core city. There is little chance to have a major urban revival in Detroit without connecting the city's neighborhoods and suburbs with its center.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yep, suburban Detroit would be better off having a regional commuter rail system with local buses that connect the surrounding areas. Urban Detroit needs mass transit -- frequent, high-capacity, rail system serving the core of Detroit [[and connecting to the airport and major suburban job centers such as Dearborn or Southfield) in addition to frequent, 24hr bus service on all major roads in the core city. There is little chance to have a major urban revival in Detroit without connecting the city's neighborhoods and suburbs with its center.

I would like to add one adjective, and that is "FAST". You can't expect low-wage earners to commute 2+ hours each way to work and have a competitive economy.

[Wesley Mouch]

Wesley Mouch, do the math. Even on Euclid Avenue's shorter eastbound trip, that works out to 12 miles per hour.

Speed isn't everything. Coverage of system. Distance from home/work to station. Walking time within station. Time between trains. There are a lot more factors than just mph.

Sorry, folks. If you think you're going to get anything "rapid" on a budget, you've been mislead. Sure, you can concoct some perverted form of rapid transit with buses--new buses with a sexy paint job and branding, for instance--but it sure as hell isn't going to be anywhere comparable to light rail. And any "new technology" they introduce isn't something that DDOT couldn't already be doing on the 53 Woodward.

Go take a look at this stop on the Euclid BRT.

Tell me that you can't build a lot more of this than you can light rail for the same money.

This section btw, is the dedicated lane part of this route. About 1/2 of the route is dedicated, and 1/2 of the route is regular curb service, like this regular bus stop. The curb section is probably rather slow, and I'll bet the dedicated part is quite fast. The article palmy referenced earlier said that they were using bus-priority signals. I've seen those in other cities where the bus gets a jump on the cars by going before the light turns green for cars. It makes a huge difference in throughput. If Cleveland can get to their estimated 30% trip savings time, that'll be amazing for the investment.[/QUOTE]

...snip...Good luck running a massive regional BRT system when diesel hits $5/gallon--the metrics aren't going to improve any, and you'll be stuck with a white elephant subject to severe economic shocks while the rest of the world moves forward on electrically-powered trains.

On Cleveland's Euclid line "These low-floor, articulated 62 feet [[19 m) buses are quiet, environmentally friendly, and served by a low-sulfur-diesel engine to power smaller electrical motors mounted near the wheels of the vehicles. A few of these buses have been ordered with a standard Allison B500R6 transmission instead of the Hybrid propulsion system.

I think quite the opposite is going to turn out to be true. The cities with massively expensive per mile, inflexible, light rail that's essentially unchanged since the 1920s are going to be looking at cities with flexible, less capital intensive, upgradable BRT.

[Bham1982]

Wesley Mouch, do the math. Even on Euclid Avenue's shorter eastbound trip, that works out to 12 miles per hour.

That's right. Twelve. About the same average speed as a regular ole stuck-in-traffic Manhattan bus.

Is that "rapid" to you?

This is all silly. The Euclid Ave. BRT line may or may not be a good idea, but the current slow speed has nothing to do with it. They haven't yet upgraded the signaling to accomondate BRT.

Ever taken the Green Line in Boston? Or the various LRT lines in Cleveland? They're all super-slow and stop at every light. Does that mean light rail automatically sucks and should never be considered?

[Wesley Mouch]

This is all silly. The Euclid Ave. BRT line may or may not be a good idea, but the current slow speed has nothing to do with it. They haven't yet upgraded the signaling to accomondate BRT.

Ever taken the Green Line in Boston? Or the various LRT lines in Cleveland? They're all super-slow and stop at every light. Does that mean light rail automatically sucks and should never be considered?

Silly, but fun!

Your point is spot-on.

When I first heard of BRT, I thought it was a joke. With time, I've warmed up to the idea. Its one tool in the toolbox of transit. Woodward probably is a good case for LRT. But BRT makes more sense when money is tight [[check), ridership is marginal today [[check), region isn' dense [[check), and you need regional buy-in [[check). I do hope we can afford a light-rail line on Woodward with BRT feeing outward, but let's accomplish what we can and do it well. Perfection is the enemy of the good.

[iheartthed]

Silly, but fun!

Your point is spot-on.

When I first heard of BRT, I thought it was a joke. With time, I've warmed up to the idea. Its one tool in the toolbox of transit. Woodward probably is a good case for LRT. But BRT makes more sense when money is tight [[check), ridership is marginal today [[check), region isn' dense [[check), and you need regional buy-in [[check). I do hope we can afford a light-rail line on Woodward with BRT feeing outward, but let's accomplish what we can and do it well. Perfection is the enemy of the good.

I don't have anything against BRT but it's not very cost efficient to have a transit system that runs only on buses. It costs more per rider to operate a bus than a train. It costs more to maintain a bus fleet than to maintain a rail based fleet carrying similar capacity. The major plus of a bus system is that the start up costs are less substantial than for a bus system. But that also means you can more easily mess up a bus system through cost cutting measures than you can a rail system.

That said, what the governor has proposed will not be a true BRT system. It will be nothing like what they have in Bogota, Curitiba, or even Cleveland. If the governor really wanted to make a true 110 mile long BRT system, with dedicated right-of-ways, and customized stations then it would far eclipse the cost of what they were planning for the Woodward light rail project.

[Detroitnerd]

Trying to do transit on the cheap is one way to ensure transit never effectively drives development.

And yet this region lavishes funding on road-widening, interchanges and freeway realignments when it only shifts development and further burdens budgets with maintenance costs.

I stand in awe -- in awe -- of the people of this region. Metro Detroiters apparently are willing to build a bus line where nobody takes the bus -- for political brownie points -- instead of upgrading transit on the busiest transit thoroughfare in town. While people wait in cold and rain for transit that doesn't arrive on Woodward, our leading lights want to build a bus line in the least walkable part of the region, where it's actually ugly and unpleasant to walk, and where no area resident would ever take a bus.

What an outstanding disconnect between planning and reality.

[DetroitPlanner]

this region lavishes funding on road-widening, interchanges and freeway realignments when it only shifts development and further burdens budgets with maintenance costs.

I stand in awe -- in awe -- of the people of this region. Metro Detroiters apparently are willing to build a bus line where nobody takes the bus -- for political brownie points -- instead of upgrading transit on the busiest transit thoroughfare in town. While people wait in cold and rain for transit that doesn't arrive on Woodward, our leading lights want to build a bus line in the least walkable part of the region, where it's actually ugly and unpleasant to walk, and where no area resident would ever take a bus.

What an outstanding disconnect between planning and reality.

The reality is that very few roads are being widened because of capacity issues. We do not have the funding to spend on doing either a good job maintaining the roadway infastructure or the transit that uses it. You will occasionally see some capacity increases, but these are moving towards projects that help to decrease accidents and improve air quality [[in the case of round-abouts). These however are about as small of a piece of the pie as the operational improvements we got from getting bike racks on buses. A lot more needs to get done, but how do we do this when the roads and buses are falling apart? This is the reality that transportation planners deal with.

[Detroitnerd]

The reality is that very few roads are being widened because of capacity issues. We do not have the funding to spend on doing either a good job maintaining the roadway infastructure or the transit that uses it.

And yet, every freakin' chance MDOT gets to do it, they do it. For example, they had wanted to widen Hall Road since 1999, and in 2009 they spent [[wasted) $50 million in federal stimulus funds to expand Hall Road between Crooks and Ryan roads from four to six lanes and rebuild a ton of bridges.

Yet we can't have a $125 million light rail project because ...

[Wesley Mouch]

And yet, every freakin' chance MDOT gets to do it, they do it. For example, they had wanted to widen Hall Road since 1999, and in 2009 they spent [[wasted) $50 million in federal stimulus funds to expand Hall Road between Crooks and Ryan roads from four to six lanes and rebuild a ton of bridges.

Yet we can't have a $125 million light rail project because ...

"every freakin' chance"

Right there. They may not get many chances to widen roads, but they sure do enjoy it. And I'm OK with road widening where its needed. But not at the expense of including mass transit as part of their mandate as the Michigan Department of Roads, ahm, I mean TRANSPORTATION.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is all silly. The Euclid Ave. BRT line may or may not be a good idea, but the current slow speed has nothing to do with it. They haven't yet upgraded the signaling to accomondate BRT.

Ever taken the Green Line in Boston? Or the various LRT lines in Cleveland? They're all super-slow and stop at every light. Does that mean light rail automatically sucks and should never be considered?

You don't need to spend in excess of $30 million per mile to institute signal prioritization on an existing bus route.

Since you and Wesley Mouch are such fans of the Euclid Corridor line [[which I'm sure, like me, you've ridden), you might want to know that the bulk of the $200 million+ was spent on streetscaping.

Let me repeat that: STREETSCAPING.

[DetroitPlanner]

And yet, every freakin' chance MDOT gets to do it, they do it. For example, they had wanted to widen Hall Road since 1999, and in 2009 they spent [[wasted) $50 million in federal stimulus funds to expand Hall Road between Crooks and Ryan roads from four to six lanes and rebuild a ton of bridges.

Yet we can't have a $125 million light rail project because ...

Tsk tsk such a divisive attitude. The project was let for close to $35 million and that also reconstructed nearly five miles of freeway. It was money dedicated to rebuilding highways. There was a seperate pot for transit. MDOT does not operate transit, though they do act as the pass through agency for transit funding. So WE could not have any of THIER money.

[Wesley Mouch]

You don't need to spend in excess of $30 million per mile to institute signal prioritization on an existing bus route.

Since you and Wesley Mouch are such fans of the Euclid Corridor line [[which I'm sure, like me, you've ridden), you might want to know that the bulk of the $200 million+ was spent on streetscaping.

Let me repeat that: STREETSCAPING.

The money sure does show there, doesn't it. The route looks great. Here's a section near downtown showing the vehicles and a station. If anyone hasn't seen this, check it out. Note the separation of transit from cars. Signal prioritization, combined with 'jump signals for busses' [[that's where the bus doesn't just get to change the light, but it gets a few seconds to get ahead of the cars) make a hugh impact on speed.

The vehicles are high-efficiency diesel-electric [[see article posted above). So you can imagine how much more frequent these arrive than typical LRT times. If you move up and down the street on google street view, you can see the busses move around. Note that at this one intersection, google caught a bus going both directions. One shot shows the google vehicle being left behind by the bus. Ha!

[ghettopalmetto]

The money sure does show there, doesn't it. The route looks great. Here's a section near downtown showing the vehicles and a station. If anyone hasn't seen this, check it out. Note the separation of transit from cars. Signal prioritization, combined with 'jump signals for busses' [[that's where the bus doesn't just get to change the light, but it gets a few seconds to get ahead of the cars) make a hugh impact on speed.

Yes, Euclid Avenue DOES look great. But do we need to be spending limited transit funds on sidewalk pavers, curbs, and new asphalt pavement?

You still haven't answered why DDOT can't install signal prioritization on the existing 53 Woodward route. That technology doesn't cost $200 million.

The vehicles are high-efficiency diesel-electric [[see article posted above). So you can imagine how much more frequent these arrive than typical LRT times. If you move up and down the street on google street view, you can see the busses move around. Note that at this one intersection, google caught a bus going both directions. One shot shows the google vehicle being left behind by the bus. Ha!

What does the engine type have to do with frequency of service? The previous route, RTA #6, was already the busiest bus route in the entire system, and already had very frequent service throughout the day.

Anyone with elementary mathematical skills can tell you, though, that these new articulated buses--being larger and heavier than the 40 footers that plyed the old #6 route, and with more tires in contact with the ground--do not have the acceleration/deceleration capabilities of even the smaller 40' buses, let alone rail.

I get it--you're quite enamored with this "technology". But you're overlooking the technical aspects of the operation because the new RTA buses look "cool".

That's not a good enough reason for subjecting Detroit's transit future to an expensive, abject failure.

[Detroitnerd]

Tsk tsk such a divisive attitude. The project was let for close to $35 million and that also reconstructed nearly five miles of freeway. It was money dedicated to rebuilding highways. There was a seperate pot for transit. MDOT does not operate transit, though they do act as the pass through agency for transit funding. So WE could not have any of THIER money.

You're talking all around the point. The point is the completely FUCKED UP PRIORITIES of the people of metro Detroit.

That we see nothing wrong with building more roads that SHIFT development when we can't afford what we have now, instead of building transit that will DRIVE development and take cars off the road.

[DetroitPlanner]

GP operational improvements are great. I don't question that. I suspect the reason why you are not getting an answer is found in the proverb that when all you have is a hammer you approach every problem with that as the solution.

However, to make sure the project is a success it needs to draw more riders. By having a uniform theming, it lets users know you can get from Case Western Reserve to the Cleveland Clinic, to CSU or Downtown. This helps to increase the choice riders. It also helps with the economic development aspects of the corridor. Is the streetscaping needed to improve operatons from a strickly engineering point of view? No. Is it needed to improve Cleveland wholistically? Probably the answer is yes.

I agree Detroit needs to walk a thin line here, we need to improve the base level of service. I am sure there are places where adding landscaping will make sense, but we do not need to rebuild all of the sidewalks along each corridor.

DN I am not talking around the point. Metro Detroit does not spend anywhere near on road congestion as most major cities in North America does. It does not have to. I think you are not understanding the impact of congestion on the cost of doing business. You need to multi-modal and effective in getting your products to the market. GM and Chrysler don't make any money by having thier products sitting in traffic on a transport as opposed to on a dealer's lot. This is also true for the internet age where everyone is ordering stuff online and getting in shipped directly to them. This causes a lot of trips and longer routes for drivers. What you fail to understand is that there is a lot less flexibility in how federal funds are distributed. DDOT and SMART got $100 million in stimulus funds roughly twice what you claim the M-59 project cost. They spent thier money on operations and bus capital instead of on building some new routes. Remember stimulus projects had to be 'shovel ready' so they could put people to work right away. Four years later we are still arguing about whether the train should run down the center of Woodward or the sides, where it should end, why can't it not be BRT instead? ad nauseum.