Lafayette Building's top two floors subsiding?

[PQZ]

On whose report is that $13 million to $14 million based? I'd like to see what the Scope of Repair is before making a decision predicated on guesswork.

You may know your Bean Counting inside-out, PQZ, but I don't see a "PE" or "AIA" after your name, so any "professional" opinion you provide on the condition of the building isn't going to carry much weight.

Whatever, I don't see anything next to your name about bean counting so anything you say about tax credits is BS and must be disocounted?

So, that little degree pissing match aside, lets go back to the question of what programs you would cut to fund the mothballing of the building.

Which one would you cut?

Make the choice. Its easy. This is an internet forum and your words have no real impact, but please...tell us...which would you cut?

[ghettopalmetto]

Whatever, I don't see anything next to your name about bean counting so anything you say about tax credits is BS and must be disocounted?

So, that little degree pissing match aside, lets go back to the question of what programs you would cut to fund the mothballing of the building.

Which one would you cut?

Make the choice. Its easy. This is an internet forum and your words have no real impact, but please...tell us...which would you cut?

Hey, I'll readily admit I don't know intimate details of tax credits and complicated financing schemes. It doesn't take a certified genius, though, to know that the opportunity cost of tax credits are thrown away as soon as a building is demolished. The details of the financing schemes are left to folks like you because you're experienced at it and good at it.

On the other hand, someone like George Jackson is in no position to comment on the condition of the building unless he's quoting from a report issued by a licensed architect or engineer, let alone make decisions based on the presumed condition of the building.

I simply don't understand how one can make objective, rational decisions without even making an effort to obtain all of the available information.

Program #1 to be cut: demolition of downtown buildings. Unless, of course, you think plywood, nails, and plastic sheething are going to cost more than $1.4 million.

[Detroitnerd]

I simply don't understand how one can make objective, rational decisions without even making an effort to obtain all of the available information.

It's simple:

1) Privately make decision.

2) Selectively collect information.

3) Selectively release information.

4) Publicly make decision.

Program #1 to be cut: demolition of downtown buildings. Unless, of course, you think plywood, nails, and plastic sheething are going to cost more than $1.4 million.

Hear, hear. If we just stop demolishing one building a year, that's millions of dollars a year for other projects.

[davewindsor]

So, that little degree pissing match aside, lets go back to the question of what programs you would cut to fund the mothballing of the building.

Which one would you cut?

Make the choice.

You don't have to cut anything. You don't even have to make a choice. If the K offer isn't legit, which I doubt because he owns a dozen other buildings, you can simply let it stand there for another five years and hope another Ferchill comes along and restores it in the future. It doesn't cost the DDA anything to just maintain the status quo.

[Detroitnerd]

How do we get the reports on the Lafayette again? PQZ has a lot of information, but I still have no reply to my question. If they are publicly available, how do we get them? Where's the transparency?

[PQZ]

Hey, I'll readily admit I don't know intimate details of tax credits and complicated financing schemes. It doesn't take a certified genius, though, to know that the opportunity cost of tax credits are thrown away as soon as a building is demolished. The details of the financing schemes are left to folks like you because you're experienced at it and good at it.

On the other hand, someone like George Jackson is in no position to comment on the condition of the building unless he's quoting from a report issued by a licensed architect or engineer, let alone make decisions based on the presumed condition of the building.

I simply don't understand how one can make objective, rational decisions without even making an effort to obtain all of the available information.

Program #1 to be cut: demolition of downtown buildings. Unless, of course, you think plywood, nails, and plastic sheething are going to cost more than $1.4 million.

And it doesn't take a PE or architect to see that nails, plywood and plastic sheathing are not going to stop the continued decay of the Lafayette. Nails, plywood and plastic sheathing are not going to stop the water penetration and is not going to stop the spalling. Look at ht e photos at the strt of this thread. The most basic of morons will see the Home Depot shopping list is a lot longer than the your three items.

You are also making the erroneous assumption that tax credits will always be greater than renovation costs and will always make rehab cheaper than new build. A half a minuteof thought about the issue would lead one to colclude that it is far more nuanced than your simplistic assumption.

The $1.4 million for demo is coming from outside the DDAs usual funding from what I understand and is therefore not taking away from its usual revenue streams. Its coming from a demo fund. Mothballing would not come from the demo fund, it would come from other programs.

What program would you cut?

[PQZ]

You don't have to cut anything. You don't even have to make a choice. If the K offer isn't legit, which I doubt because he owns a dozen other buildings, you can simply let it stand there for another five years and hope another Ferchill comes along and restores it in the future. It doesn't cost the DDA anything to just maintain the status quo.

Perhaps you have not noticed the facade work that routinely falls off the building on to the sidewalks. Perhaps you have not noticed the continual removal of plywood by vagrants an artists. Peraps you have not noticed the photos in thei thread which show window frames buckling and twisting which will eventually rain gl;ass down on pedestrians.

The building is a hazard. Letting it stand "as is" is no longer safe. The point has been reached that it must be mothballed or demoed.

Try again.

Which program do you cut?

[PQZ]

Hear, hear. If we just stop demolishing one building a year, that's millions of dollars a year for other projects.

What other building is set to be demolished with DDA funds?

Even if there were buildings in the DDA budget set to be demoed over the next two years, you now have ANOTHER policy question....which buildings do you mothball?

Do you mothball one building for the price of the demo of three buildings? How do you mothball the other two? Which building gets mothballed and which two are left open to the scrappers without even a vague attempt to secure them?

What do you do NEXT year when you have no money to mothball either building? What program do you cut then?

Grow a fucking pair of balls and answer which program you cut....

Do you want light rail or do you want a building or two mothablled. You can't have both.

Make a choice.

[kraig]

Actually, it's a fool and his money ARE soon parted. [[I know, I know. )

But I think you are in a bit of a rush to condemn those looking for new ways to do things. History is littered with instances where the "popular wisdom" or "expert opinion" on something was firm and looked unassailable. And then it was proved wrong, usually by a small, committed group of people.

I mean, c'mon. Even there you take his comments out of context and twist them a bit. He's not saying it will cost an additional $500,000 to repair it. I believe he's saying that if it requires $1.9 million to secure it, so we can preserve the building for its future use, it's money well-spent. And it very well could be.

After all, nobody has a crystal ball. But isn't it possible that things could turn around here? No person in Detroit 45 years ago could have imagined what it would look like today. Why are we so certain what the Detroit of 45 years in the future is going to look like?

I think the main point is that spending money to mothball the structure is a good gamble. Sure it costs $1.4 million to demolish, and then it's over. And, at current market rates, maybe that sounds like a good deal to you. But what will the building's value be in 10, 20, 30 years? Could be more, and most certainly, if it is mothballed, will not be less.

Here's the thing: These voices that are calling for mothballing instead of demolition represent a break from business as usual, which isn't working. Demolishing buildings is not bringing in new investment; it is wiping away history. Demolishing buildings does not make downtown more attractive; it makes it smaller. You can argue the numbers all you want, but I must say I like their vision, their spirit, and their mettle. The Same Old Stuff just isn't doing it for me. Hell, we're not even buying a bogus bridge. We're buying empty lots.

You're under the assumption that hanging on to the Lafayette Building when there are not any prospects for the building is a new way of doing things. It's not, that's the old way. Ford Auditorium. 20 years. Nothing.

[kraig]

How do we get the reports on the Lafayette again? PQZ has a lot of information, but I still have no reply to my question. If they are publicly available, how do we get them? Where's the transparency?

Go back and read some of his other posts, he told you. Like I said before, you can't see the forest for the trees. Then again, you may be too busy performing spell checks to actually pay attention to what you're reading.

[Detroitnerd]

What other building is set to be demolished with DDA funds? Even if there were buildings in the DDA budget set to be demoed over the next two years, you now have ANOTHER policy question....which buildings do you mothball?

That's great. I'd like to be able to decide. Just as soon as the DDA and DEGC develop a real plan for analyzing the structural integrity of all those buildings and making the information publicly available so everybody can have some input. Then we'll have the benefit of their wisdom when putting together a plan. Wouldn't that be Step One in any reasonable effort to develop, redevelop and demolish? But I don't see any of that happening. What I see is somebody who can talk numbers, berate people for having an alternate vision, but apparently can't spell the name of the park his old employer is going to "save." In fact, I see an increasingly whiny, upset, small-minded person who is so obsessed with defending his old employer's thesis that he looks increasingly desperate.

Do you mothball one building for the price of the demo of three buildings? How do you mothball the other two? Which building gets mothballed and which two are left open to the scrappers without even a vague attempt to secure them?

Right now, they're ALL left open for scrappers to get into them. And then we have to demolish them because they've been neglected.

What do you do NEXT year when you have no money to mothball either building? What program do you cut then?

I already gave some ideas for cuts. Did you see those?

Grow a fucking pair of balls and answer which program you cut....

Oh, I already answered that question. Did you miss that?

And, by the way, that is exactly the sort of rhetoric that makes you look desperate, condescending, out of touch, and totally unsympathetic. In short, if your attitude is anything like the attitude of a typical DDA or DEGC staffer, then the people who distrust those organizations would seem to have an accurate estimation of them.

Do you want light rail or do you want a building or two mothablled. You can't have both. Make a choice.

That is a false choice. We don't have light rail.

[Detroitnerd]

You're under the assumption that hanging on to the Lafayette Building when there are not any prospects for the building is a new way of doing things. It's not, that's the old way. Ford Auditorium. 20 years. Nothing.

I don't know the story of the Ford Auditorium. I heard the acoustics were terrible.

[ghettopalmetto]

So now PQZ is a building envelope consultant as well. Congratulations. Exactly how many things are you good at, anyway?

I don't care if the applicable tax credits are FIVE DOLLARS--those are LOST as soon as the building is demolished, and MUST be considered in any rational analysis.

Someone's awful defensive lately, yet still hasn't been able to tell us where we can get a copy of the architect and engineer's reports on their investigations of the Lafayette Building. The kind of information needed to even mothball the building would be included in such a document.

You can't stop spalling if you don't make an effort. But of course, you knew that.

If DEGC and Mr. PQZ put as much effort into preservation as they did into stonewalling, downtown Detroit would look a lot like Center City Philadelphia right now.

[Detroitnerd]

Go back and read some of his other posts, he told you. Like I said before, you can't see the forest for the trees. Then again, you may be too busy performing spell checks to actually pay attention to what you're reading.

My post #216? I asked if the reports written up by the "engineers" were independently conducted, publicly available to any layman and relatively free of jargon? I don't believe I heard a good answer to that question, at least not directed right to me. I even asked where I could get the paperwork and didn't hear anything that sounded like instructions. Then again, it's a big thread.

And, gosh, kraig, grow up a little.

[Novine]

Sorry PQZ that not all of us have as much free time as you apparently do to play "bombard the forums" today. I only have a second to address two points:

"The $1.4 million for demo is coming from outside the DDAs usual funding from what I understand and is therefore not taking away from its usual revenue streams."

I asked you before and I'll ask it again. Document the claim. I've seen nothing that shows that this demo. is coming from anything other than DDA dollars. There is no "demo fund" within the DDA budget that's for demolition exclusively. The state dollars that I think you're talking about were exhausted on the Ilitch demolitions. Where were you then to complain about demolition dollars being spent to benefit a very rich man? Busy collecting a paycheck from him or the DDA?

Next.

Your demands to ask what to be cut. Give us the numbers. I have no problem reviewing the DDA budget and taking a whack at what's worthwhile and what's not. Where are the numbers? I found the old DDA budget digging through Council committee documents on the CoD's web site. You can't even find a list of the DDA members much less the budget on the CoD web site. As you appear to have an in at the DDA or at least know who signs your checks, see if they can share with you the DDA budget and projections of revenues for the tax authority. Then post the numbers or links to the documents. Before you keep shouting down the rest of us with your insults, give us a chance to look at the numbers.

[kraig]

I don't know the story of the Ford Auditorium. I heard the acoustics were terrible.

Then I suggest you not try to give history lessons if you don't know the history that you're speaking of.

[Detroitnerd]

kraig, we're not talking about the Ford Auditorium. You are. And if you have something to say, say it, so that way everybody can pile on you if you try to bullshit us.

[PQZ]

So, instead of answering the direct question put infront of them, Ghettopalmetto and Detroitnerd prefer to attack the questioner. That's all I need to know.

And I'm sorry Detroitnerd, all you said is that you would stop doing something which is not in the budget. I have asked you what direct budget item - such as the $9 million for light rial planning and construction coming out of the FY 2010 DDA budget you would forego to begin doing the mothballing of the building that you and others are demanding. You have not answered that.

All you responded with was a vague wave of the hand on for some imagined budget tiem that does not exist. Which of the concrete, real budget line items would you choose to take monay away from to pay for the mothballing of the Lafayette?

Its not hard. Pick one.

[kraig]

kraig, we're not talking about the Ford Auditorium. You are. And if you have something to say, say it, so that way everybody can pile on you if you try to bullshit us.

"but I do enjoy getting a sense of people's personalities in here."

You're telling on yourself nerd. It's not so easy to just hide behind corny jokes. But, I'm quite sure that people tell you that all the time.

Anyway, Ford Auditorium was in the same situation that the Lafayette Building is in today. The differences being that Comerica was looking to develop the site into its headquarters and the then Detroit City Council voting to save Ford Auditorium. 20 years later it's still sitting there vacant without prospects and costing the city money.

[Detroitnerd]

So, instead of answering the direct question put infront of them, Ghettopalmetto and Detroitnerd prefer to attack the questioner. That's all I need to know.

Haha. That's hilarious. You have used some pretty snide, childish, snotty language on here. I think I've been pretty respectful and open with you, even as I've chided you on your puerile remarks. Your response? Take me to task for attacking you?

And I'm sorry Detroitnerd, all you said is that you would stop doing something which is not in the budget. I have asked you what direct budget item - such as the $9 million for light rial planning and construction coming out of the FY 2010 DDA budget you would forego to begin doing the mothballing of the building that you and others are demanding. You have not answered that.

All you responded with was a vague wave of the hand on for some imagined budget tiem that does not exist. Which of the concrete, real budget line items would you choose to take monay away from to pay for the mothballing of the Lafayette?

Yeah, well, I guess it would have been best if you had presented a list of what could be cut, which I don't think you have. So I've come up with some ideas of what I've seen the DDA do. Are you saying that this isn't in the budget?

http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=1280

Because usually when I see the daily newspaper write about something, I tend to give it more credence than, say, a genuinely hostile person who seems to be telling part of the truth online. Does that "pencil out" for you?

Or maybe now you're playing some sort of semantic game, as the 2009 giveaways to incompetent entreprenuers are not in the 2010 budget? Lame...

Its not hard. Pick one.

OK. Here's something. I have several children in the room with me. Based on your own knowledge of the children I have right here in the room with me, which three of them should I kill? It's not hard. Pick three.

[PQZ]

I asked you before and I'll ask it again. Document the claim. I've seen nothing that shows that this demo. is coming from anything other than DDA dollars. There is no "demo fund" within the DDA budget that's for demolition exclusively.

And as I detailed earlier, it is my understanding that the $1.4 million is cominmg from the $8 million demo fund that is out of state funds. I amy not be exaclty coorect on that but it is my understanding.

Your demands to ask what to be cut. Give us the numbers. I have no problem reviewing the DDA budget and taking a whack at what's worthwhile and what's not. Where are the numbers? I found the old DDA budget digging through Council committee documents on the CoD's web site. You can't even find a list of the DDA members much less the budget on the CoD web site. As you appear to have an in at the DDA or at least know who signs your checks, see if they can share with you the DDA budget and projections of revenues for the tax authority. Then post the numbers or links to the documents.

I don't even live in the State of Michigan, and I certainly don't have direct access to the DDA budget but I did post a listing of DDA projects takend from public newspaper sources that are all from the FY 2010 budget.

I have simply asked which of the announced DDA projects / funding centers anyone would cut to pay for the mothballing of the Lafayette.

Not a single person here has even been able do that simple exercise...all have wandered off into theoreticals.

I'll repost here:

* $1.9 million for 1515 Griswold - knowing this will result in the building staying as is for many more years.
* Cut light rail funding from $9 million to $6 million
* Kill the Small Business Loan Transaction for the next two years
* Eliminate Capital Park improvements.
* Eliminate half the funding for Clean Detroit for the next four years.

Go on. Do it. Pick one or two. Play George Jackson. Play DDA board.
No need to spend hours reading the budget - just play around with what is published - what would you trade in order to get a mothballed Lafayette?

[Detroitnerd]

"but I do enjoy getting a sense of people's personalities in here."

You're telling on yourself nerd. It's not so easy to just hide behind corny jokes. But, I'm quite sure that people tell you that all the time.

I'm sorry, kraig. I don't understand the thrust of this new insult. You'll have to explain it to me.

Anyway, Ford Auditorium was in the same situation that the Lafayette Building is in today. The differences being that Comerica was looking to develop the site into its headquarters and the then Detroit City Council voting to save Ford Auditorium. 20 years later it's still sitting there vacant without prospects and costing the city money.

Sounds like it doesn't have any prospects. It's not exactly an architectural prize, is it? And if the acoustics in there are as bad as they say, it would probably be too much work to improve them. Then again, developing a corporate headquarters on the recreation-oriented riverfront would have been a bad idea. And, with Comerica largely in Texas, we'd probably have another largely empty hulk if they had razed and developed it. Maybe all that stalling was for the best in the end.

[Detroitnerd]

Wow, what a secretive organization. Look at how few hits Googling "DDA Small Business Loan Transaction Progra" turns up!

[davewindsor]

Perhaps you have not noticed the facade work that routinely falls off the building on to the sidewalks. Perhaps you have not noticed the continual removal of plywood by vagrants an artists. Peraps you have not noticed the photos in thei thread which show window frames buckling and twisting which will eventually rain gl;ass down on pedestrians.

The building is a hazard. Letting it stand "as is" is no longer safe. The point has been reached that it must be mothballed or demoed.

Try again.

Which program do you cut?

If Kbacks away, do nothing and wait for another developer to come along.

They already put up a fence to deal with that so called hazard.

So what if there are a few window frames are twisting? Those windows can be replaced a few years down the road, if not tomorrow. How much are a few replacement window frames from Habitat? A thousand bucks? If not, how much to just board it up? You get people breaking into occupied buildings too. So what? It happens. Just because that happens doesn't follow that the building must be, henceforth, demolished. As for the facade hazard, I remember a poster giving a quote from a previous thread to fix that problem not too long ago for $35,000, if it was to be resolved as opposed to maintaining the status quo with the fence around the property.
http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=106 Post #7
B.
Facade Renovation Cost:
$35,000
Mothballing Cost:
$24,400
Total Cost:
$59,400
C. Starting and Completing Work
Façade Renovation 30 days
Mothballing 30 days

D.
E.
F. UNIT PRICE SCALE
UNIT PRICE NO. 1
The cost of removing unsafe slate colored façade addition from lower part of building, removing graffiti, vegetative growth, and visible dilapidation debris.
30 x 10 Cubic Yard Dumpsters $7,000
3 Scissor Lifts $4,500
6 Masonry Workers @ $15.00 x 4 weeks $14,400
6 General Labors @ $10 x 4 weeks $9,600

UNIT PRICE NO. 2
The cost of installing treatments to windows for appearance, security system, and mothballing the building for future development.
4 Window Installers @ $15 x 4 weeks $14,400
Security System $5,000
Materials $5,000

[ghettopalmetto]

PQZ, the *entire point* of this discussion is that DEGC won't even do the responsible thing and hire an architect and engineer IN ORDER TO DETERMINE what kind of mothballing measures are necessary. Maybe you can put dollar figures on made-up bullshit scope of work based on nothing in reality, but I can't.

What you're proposing is identical to totalling a car for a few dings even before having a mechanic and auto body shop prepare an estimate. I presume you were never an insurance adjuster in a past life, were you?

Now, where are these architectural and engineering feasibility studies?